MovieChat Forums > Melancholia (2011) Discussion > Wait, what? Kiefer Sutherland's Characte...

Wait, what? Kiefer Sutherland's Character (Spoilers warning)


(DON'T READ UNLESS YOU HAVE ALREADY VIEWED THE FILM AS THIS CONTAINS SPOILERS, BUT IF YOU ARE READING THIS AND HAVEN'T SEEN THE MOVIE YOU'LL PROBABLY HAVE SEEN THE SPOILERS BELOW AND IT IS ALREADY TO LATE. IF THAT IS THE CASE--WOULD YOU LIKE A CUP OF TEA?)

Alrighty, so I just finished viewing the film and I am wondering why John, Claire's husband, decided all out of the blue like to kill himself? I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but was this not kind, oh I don't know, completely freaking out of character? I don't get why he'd just decide that was what he was going to do when he had a wife and son he rather seemed to care for. He didn't really seem like the cowardly type to me, until you know, he was dead.
Hope you who haven't seen the movie took my spoiler warning and didn't ruin it for yourselves. I did, after all, forewarn.

This ain't my first tea party...

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[deleted]

It wasn't accidental. Claire checks the pills to find them empty and you can see on Johns mouth a vomit-like substance

He realizes that melancholia is going to collide with earth unlike he's been saying, and couldn't take it. That the most composed character in the film about the planet is actually the one who acts the most rashly about it.

I think that Lars Von Trier wanted to show how people in a depressed state act very cool in situations like this, while John, who one would think of as the most 'together' character acts the least cool

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Hmm, that's interesting. It would go with the depression themes of the film, and you could say that is why he wanted to toast to 'life' after Melancholia passed but I don't know if I totally can agree with your premise. See I'd probably have to watch the film again to try and see if I can gather any symptoms, even in the slightest, of him hiding depression. But I'm not sure I'm up for that anytime soon. I must admit I was really disappointed with it.
And again, even if I was to agree with this it doesn't negate the fact that his suicide was out of character because of the fact that he was more then just a scientist. I mean, even if he's not fond of Justine, he atleast showed signs of being a loving person towards his son and his wife. It was just incredibly selfish and surprising that he would do that when his character didn't show other signs of selfishness, although you could call his secretiveness a selfish character trait, but he wasn't doing it to protect his wife, knowing her fear of Melancholia. Although you COULD say he was doing it because he himself feared the thought and was denying it out of fear of being incorrect. But again, does this go with his character?

This ain't my first tea party...

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You don't have to be depressed to commit suicide when the alternative is dying some horrible death after a planet collides with Earth. I thought it was obvious that he couldn't bear the alternative. Even though he loves his son and wife, his presence won't negate the fact that they're all about to be killed. And does he want to stick around to see how they all ultimately die?

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If you're going to die an instant and painless death when Melancholia's atmosphere collides with the earth anyway, why not just stick around for another hour? I'd much rather sit there and just let it happen naturally.

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Yes, death itself is instantaneous, but he did not want to deal with the fear and the waiting itself. Once he found out that Melancholia was going to hit Earth, he didn't want to deal with his fears or the fears of his family so he took the easy and selfish way out.




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He was in denial all along. He couldn't stand that the truth came out for all to see and to his failure in denial.

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John lived for money... his wife and child were his property. He "kept his cool" as means of manipulating his property into following the path that he decided. The meaning of life, for him, was his ability to determine the path of himself and his family, through means of mental, emotional, and financial control.

A human being dedicating his life to control is an affront to nature, which is beyond control.

Melancholia represented a cosmic fate beyond earthly coin, physical existence was rendered in and of itself meaningless by this "planet", with a path which could not be controlled or predicted.

Justine was a being completely removed from the physical world, adverse to putting on airs to manipulate the paths of those around her, the complete societal antithesis of John.

This is an ideological movie, about people's ability to surrender to forces beyond their control, and about their ability to cope with the ramifications of an insurmountable fate.

It is about what is important to people... the illusion of wealth or the truth of "eternal life", whether one views the concept of eternal life to actually be spiritually eternal, or just a metaphor for the futility of a selfish physical existence on earth (some might say one in the same, as the basis of pure faith).

John "kept his cool" for as long as he viewed a practical physical purpose to do so... as soon as the curtains were pulled, and life was shown to be "meaningless", ending with the collision of Melancholia... John no longer had any purpose to put on airs... and devoid of airs, what was left of the man? Nothing. John was a paper thin facade that was burnt to a crisp in the light of Melancholia. He showed his true selfishness, that as soon as he lost control of "those he loved" (symbolically earth, literally his family and their fates), he was out of the game, for he didn't have true existential love to see things through beyond his control.

He did NOT love life... he did not surrender to being. He feigned love for Melancholia, but as soon as Melancholia surpassed his understanding, and usurped his imagined control, he became nothing, or rather was revealed as the nothing he always was.

You could say a major theme of the movie is ego... ego as an affront to pure being. John is ego and Justine is pure being. Ego only sees the value in perpetuation of the self, and cannot see the value in an existence void of it's own individuality and property. Pure being sees the futility of all existence, and therefore makes no effort to perpetuate the self, seeing the self only as illusion. In pure being is true love, beyond control. In seeing that there is only control of the self and one's own actions, one can begin to achieve symbiosis with the universe outside of their immediate control. Surrender to the fates.

This is a mature and morally ambiguous work... John is likable to an extent just as Justine is condemnable to an extent, although he is the villain and she the hero. It is meant to illustrate the heaviness of our choices, our ability to act or not to act, even in the face of complete futility. It is also completely misanthropic and deriding of wealth for wealth's sake, a human condition. Being a human, you may look at this and say "what's the big deal"? You would be advised to take a much more comical look at yourself.

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Very well written, and I agree.

I recently watched Melancholia again, and I must say I appreciated it a lot more this time.

Your post really nailed it in terms of how I interpreted the movie as well. In a way, I think it's one of the most straight-forward movies Lars von Trier has done, and I definitely see it as having an existential or existentialistic theme.

People have each their own grand deceptions/delusions to bypass the fear of death and mortality. Everyone has some way to cope with their own mortality or finiteness, and John was the perfect example of someone who builds his delusion of life and meaning on illusion of control, materialism and predictability.

Some people come to terms with the inevitable end, other people don't want to even confront the thought. John was the illustration of those who don't really confront or come to terms with own human condition and mortality. As you pointed out, he was a "paper thin facade", he didn't love life, because he never really got a mature understanding for death - a vital part of the human condition.

Death was almost shoved into his face, with all the existential discomfort it has to offer to someone who has been avoiding the subject altogether. His reality and illusions of control crumbled, and the only thing he was left with was a certain control over his own condition and how he meets life (or in this particular case, how he decided to cope with inevitable death). It must have been terrifying, and it must have been the last thing he desperately clung to - a control over his own death and fear.

The whole clinging to money and finding existential lies and delusions in order to cope with death-aspect, it's pretty common in a lot of modern societies (especially western). It's sort of a stereotype, if you will, of the materialistic and individualistic "self-made" man, who has grown up in a culture that has a very unnatural relation to, and aversion towards death.

I'm just blabbing from the top of my head right now, but I guess my bottom line is that I find your post really well-written and clear.

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Note, too, that he took ALL the pills, leaving none for his wife, who seemed to need - or want - them most, and not for his son.

I admit I had a flash for the scammers who so loudly proclaim Ozone Hole... no... Global Cooling, no... Global Warning, no... Climate Change... yeah... Climate Change!

What will THEY do when they finally have to admit the scam?

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Yes, it’s interesting how the demands of climate change fanatics look suspiciously like a Communist’s wish-list.

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Exactly right halfdemon.

Its very interesting the turnarounds between the John and Justine characters.

John starts out as a pragmatist. Organised. In control. Looking to fix things. Once he makes the discovery he is completely destroyed and beyond help.

Justine is a mess. Irrational. Tortured. Deeply depressed. But to her, impending death is nothing to fear. She ends the film in serene control.

Claire is perhaps the most 'normal' and easiest to relate to, for most people. Her actions and reactions are understandable throughout the film.

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Yes, that is what I originally thought too, but then Von Trier made it clear it hadn't been an accident with showing the vomit, even having Claire tilt his head to make sure it wasn't missed, and then later showing the her finding the empty pills.

This ain't my first tea party...

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Is this your first rodeo?

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Oceena wrote : ''I thought perhaps the horse trampled him to death since we were shown the horses acting nervous in a previous scene''

Hahahaha, that is hilarious, oceena.

Also, the OP really overdoes his intro with the Cap Locks. He comes across as one of those goofy excitable douches. The ones who do the clown humour but aren't funny. Really annoying.

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[deleted]


Wow can't believe somebody believe it wasn't a suicide, I mean the fact that he killed himself was the most powerful thing in the movie IMHO.

Earlier he probably wasn't sure that the planet was gonna collide, but he was very scared. When Justine used that kid's invention and noticed Melancholia is moving away, he is like "of course". But you know he's nervous.

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Also, if you go back, there's the scene where Claire looks at the trajectory of Melancholia. It does go pass the earth as John had said. But, then the picture shows it coming back around and colliding with earth.

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That's the exquisite charm of this film. This swas a man who put all his faith in science and "reason". When the "calculations" prove utterly wrong his world came tumbling down.



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Allahu akbar!

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Not that my post above your own matters. But, you're wrong. He put his calculations above everyone else. His version of science and reason. He and some of his colleagues were completely wrong, other scientists weren't. As the diagram Claire was printing proved. There was no charm or anything in this film, it sucked.

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Hmm, well that works in theory yes, but I don't know if I got that watching the character. Am I the only one who didn't see him as just a scientist caricature? :p I mean, he seemed to love his son and wife, right? Maybe Kiefer just played him too much of a family man type, but he didn't seem like the man who would just abandon his family out of cowardice. Maybe I'm wrong. :p

This ain't my first tea party...

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I think he came down with a sudden case of melancholia

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My take is John knew all along. His reassurance to his family rang hollow to me. I think he just couldn't face up to them turning on him when they found out he had lied to them.

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I actually think that he killed himself for the sake of his family.

He knew he couldn't hide it from them once he knew for sure that they were all going to die.

He didn't want their last few hours to be filled with anxiety/stress/dread so he thought that if he disappeared, that they might go about their day normally and not worry.

I think he did it to protect them from himself.

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I think when he realized he was wrong about Melancholia, he felt like he had let his family down badly. It is hard for a certain kind of man to feel like he has let his family down and live with it. Perhaps he thought they wouldn't find him, because you know, they're all going to die.

What's it going to be then, eh?

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[deleted]

I meant in regards to character, obviously.

This ain't my first tea party...

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Uh, his death was totally out of the blue for his character but also plot-wise. He had already made survival plans in case of an emergency (plans that wouldn't have worked, but still). He was never sure they were going to make it. He's a coward plain and simple.

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[deleted]

I didn't think it was weird, he is the most "normal" person in the movie and the most hopeful and in denial all the time until he realizes it is real, maybe everything he fears is so freking real, so... he freaks and kill himself, it is not out of the blue.


^_^

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