MovieChat Forums > Anonymous (2011) Discussion > More evidence Shakespeare was Shakespear...

More evidence Shakespeare was Shakespeare


Ridiculous as it seems that anyone needs to be convinced of that.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/30/theater/shakespeare-coat-of-arms.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=mini-moth&region=top-stories-below&WT.nav=top-stories-below&_r=1

The more we learn about him, the more we know it was him who wrote the plays. Not Marlowe, Bacon, King James, or the Earl of Freakin' Oxford. William Shakespeare wrote the plays of William Shakespeare.

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The effects of random mutation in natural selection are part of a theory. Shakespeare's idiosyncratic use of pleonastic 'do' is part of a theory.

Will's authorship is a fact, like evolution is a fact.

The world has moved on since Anonymous appeared and Blogging Shakespeare's 60 minutes were produced in response.

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Evolution's not a "fact." It's a theory based on a poem (Ovid's Metamorphosis). All science is based on poetry (see De rerum natura). Ideas based on other ideas...

It doesn't matter who wrote Shakespeare. It's just incredibly dumb to say de Vere did.

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You are wrong. Evolution is a scientific theory and not a theory, please do not get them two mixed up.
And no, evolution isn't just based on ideas, but on scientific evidence as the dinosaurs we dig up out of the ground and the animals we change by breeding them.

Here you can read about what a scientific theory is : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

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"You are wrong . . . scientific theory and not a theory . . . scientific evidence . . . " I am aware of the old-fashioned (since the 18th century) religious belief that science = truth and reality. Please try to imagine that you are replacing one form of divinity with another. Just try. No one will hold his breath.

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And now you call it truth, when it is a scientific theory (this is fun, english is my third language, and yet I speak it better than you). :-D Okay, if you want to belive in some old fantasy litterature, it´s up to you, just don't come running to us when you get sick. Because all the medical care is based on science and not any religion, but perhaps your pastor can heal you by placing a hand on your forehead and speak in tounges?

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You misunderstand me completely, English wizard. I don't think anything is true. Sounds like you fancy yourself a doctor. Perhaps you've heard of the Ebers Papyrus? It's all just writing, bud. Do you toil under the illusion that future generations will find you wise?

As far as my pastor goes--I had one when I was a kid. I hope he's died several painful deaths, hopefully via poisoned arrow sodomy. I like that speaking in tongues, was forced to do it once in a basement in Indiana by my slightly older cousin, who later committed suicide--the practice openly acknowledges the arrogance of knowledge.

All praise Secularism. Yawn.

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Billy, you belive that the Ebers papers "knowledge" is based on information gathered with a scientific method? Well, let me then tell you that it is not.

No, i'm not a doctor, but I am a scientist. And yes, future generation will look up to those using the scientific method, as we look up to those before us (even if they were wrong in many cases). The work they did was amazing and it is the foundation of the thing we study today. Some thing are almost the same today. Look att Carl von Linnés work with putting the plants into systems nearly 300 years ago, we still use it, even if we have moved around some plants and added some families after we learned more about them and could start traveling the world easier.

Okay, it seems as you do not have a clue what the scientific method is and how long time it actually takes. When I as a scientist read a scientific report, I'm not just taking the information as a scientific truth, I'm actually looking to find out if it is wrong. That is what the whole method is about.

How about if you were to read one yourself? And before that read up on the scientific method, so you have a clue on how to read the paper?

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Since the Scientific Method was crafted in the 18th century, no, I don't think the Ebers Papyrus employs it. I'm not a Christian, Dr. Wizard. It was fun to offend your religious sensibilities; no one would ever accuse you of thinking outside the box.

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So why did you use the Eber paper as an example on why science isn't trustworthy? And if you are not a christian, why did you have a pastor as a child?

I do know that the american education system regarding subjects as evolution etc isn't up to standards and is highly influenced by christian believes. So i'm going to go out on a limb, and draw the conclusion of that you are an american (probably from the bible belt or your science teacher/parents were) based on your opinions on evolution, the american english you use when you write and also the hours under which you answer in this thread. So, my dear sir, i'm not the one in this discussion in need of waking up and looking outside of the box. And i'm not the one who's opinions have been tainted by religion.

If you were to study science in another country, you would see a remarkable and positive difference.

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I didn't say science isn't trustworthy. I said it was poetry. Your holy Scientific Method is mere language; it's a lyric poem whose theme is skepticism. As a poem, I think it's pretty good. As a God, I think it fails utterly.

Do you know any evangelical Christian who would deny her faith? I don't. Pretty big sin, there.

I was indeed raised to be a Low Church Protestant Christian. But since that status is achieved not by training but by faith, allow me to blow your hidebound brain once more: I believe in neither the Christian God nor the obsolete Secular/Scientific God.

Why should anyone believe anything? I think this question brings us back on topic.

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But you are not reading what it is that I write. As I earlier wrote, we constantly are looking to prove science wrong. So how is that a religion? Religion is about faith and believing in the things that cant be proven. If scientist discover tomorrow that the earth is flat and could prove it, I wouldn't cling on to the belief that it is round. And I wouldn't become depressed either if I had to change my beliefs. And you need to read up on science, because we don't have a god. And science isn't a belief system, it's just a method in gathering and interpreting data.

If I know any protestants who would deny their faith? Yes I do, a priest actually. Not everyone is from the US, I live in on of the top countries of atheism (34 %) and 45 % of "maybe it's something out there, but I'm not sure what it is or if it is anything there".



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It's a religion bc you believe in "proof," believe in "science," in the "Scientific Method." Every period has their version of truth and reality. Science happens to be the current one. Strain your brain a bit and grasp that proof requires faith, that proof is merely an opinion upon which you and at least one other person agree. I may be depressed but it has nothing to do with science/religion. It has something to do with intellectual kool-aid slurpers.

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And by the way, I am aware that you don't live in the US. I don't understand what that has to do with anything. Protestants don't have "priests." Cling to your fantasies, all of you.

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(And even if I did "believe" in "fantasy literature," Ovid is, like pagan, bro.)

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It's always christians who don't know the difference between a theory and a scientific theory and try and use it against the evolution theory. .

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And since this is fun, allow me to add that no one has ever observed evolution occurring on a cellular level. Not that I don't believe in evolution--I love Ovid and believe in his Metamorphoses wholeheartedly. But perhaps you'll be less offended at this heresy if you simply consider: which came first, poetry or "science" (a term that meant "knowledge" until the 18th c.)?

If I were on your side of the debate, I'd point not to ideas based on poems but to technology. That's still based on poetry, but it's at least a challenge to explain why.

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This might help. Unlikely, based on past evidence and the extent of your current confusion, but there's always a chance.

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/science-sushi/evolution-watching-speciation-occur-observations

Shakespeare's authorship is a fact. There is no counter evidence to challenge the documentary record, which is extensive.

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And re the above linked by NY Times article: it doesn't "prove" Shakespeare wrote the plays (the quarto title pages and all his contemporaries do that), but many Shax idolaters have a hard time imagining that their Christ replacement ever lowered himself to anything so craven as money making or social climbing.

So you've got idiots on all sides of the debate.

For example: "neoplasmic use of 'do'"

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You are doing well against this strawman you have erected
1 mark deducted for not being Curse of Fenric. Insert 'The' into previous if you are Ant-Mac

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I didn't erect the "strawman"--Roland Barthes did.

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Many Shax idolaters have a hard time...


Can you name any? The notion that a Great Artist (in any medium) should be above such mundane considerations as social status, respectability and earning a living was created by the 19th-century Romantic movement and pretty much died with it. In our own day the only people who can't cope with the notion that the canon was written by a professional actor and pen-for-hire with a provincial grammar-school education are the Anti-Strats; everybody else accepts it.

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Every time I see anyone on this "message" "board" suggest that Shax stooped to hoard grain, evade taxes--essentially, that everything he did was in the service of making money--Bardolators leap to his defense. If there were something to gain by providing you "evidence" of this, I'd do it. I'm glad you think everyone is liberated from the Romantic vision of the poet; I fear you're overestimating the Shax loving crowd.

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I don't think you can provide that evidence. Since the 19th century Shakespeare scholars have been routinely noting his dedicated interest in building up his property portfolio, his court fines, tax evasion, willingness to pursue even small debts via the courts, etc; this is all accepted knowledge, and I've never seen anyone here denying it.

What we have seen on this board are numerous people responding to repeated iterations of 'He was a GRAIN MERCHANT!!!' and similar canards, by pointing out that there isn't a shred of evidence for it.

Oh, and btw, he didn't actually 'stoop to hoard grain'. His wife did that.

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Bingo. Thanks for providing the evidence. I love the fantasized bit about Anne! Since she was from a wealthier yet unartistic family, the fantasy dictates that she stooped to hoard? Amusing.

Cessation of idolatry will lead to acceptance of "authorship."

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What an utterly bizarre suggestion.

What on earth makes you suppose that the Hathaways were an 'unartistic' family compared to the Shakespeares? Or that the artistic temperament has anything, either positively or negatively, to do with hoarding?

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And no one hoards a commodity one does not intend to sell. When one sells something one becomes a merchant. Why would anyone be offended by the near certainty that Shax was a grain merchant? Who cares? What does it have to do with his other streams of income, including plays? Would you prefer he fashioned elegant quills? So stupid.

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And no one hoards a commodity one does not intend to sell


Unless one wants to avoid famine and poor harvests

1 mark deducted for not being Curse of Fenric. Insert 'The' into previous if you are Ant-Mac

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"...avoid famine and poor harvests." You dull idolaters are far worse than the Oxfordians, and constantly make my point. Shax hoarded grain in quantities too large for his family to consume, obviously. Why is it so hard for you to accept that Shakespeare isn't Byron? If avarice had anything to do with writing ability, it would seem to augment it, if Shax were a guide. Spending your life believing in an idiotic ideal of the Poet doesn't make it less idiotic.

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Oh....you think Shax had refrigeration! Now I understand. You think he could just keep loads of grain for twenty years in his barn. With you guys, one has to clarify your points for oneself.

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Or do you think he intended to eat all that hoarded himself before it rotted, as an act of suicide? Sort of a Gunpowder Plot on himself? Maybe that would explain why he's so fat at the gravesite--the sculptor caught him moments before he blew?

If the phrase "grain merchant" sends shivers up your class-envying spine, why don't we call it "early, indiscriminate capitalism"?

I prefer to call it "greed" and "energy" (the same thing--Lucian Freud defines genius as energy) but then I'm not a contracted anus like you dull Stratfordians.

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You seem to be remarkably insulted by the suggestion that Shakespeare wasn't a grain merchant? Are you a grain merchant yourself? Or do you just self-identify as a grain merchant? Perhaps you feel that the cultural appropriation of 'grain merchant' culture has gone too far or that self-determination for grain merchants is long overdue.

I wish to apologise to grain merchants everywher and hope that my comments about grain merchants are not taken out of context.

1 mark deducted for not being Curse of Fenric. Insert 'The' into previous if you are Ant-Mac

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Why would anyone be offended by the near certainty that Shax was a grain merchant?


Nobody is. What does offend people here is the absurd parroting of the "grain merchant" fantasy as fact.

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The difference between fantasy and fact: textual/legal evidence of Shakespeare's being penalized for hoarding grain. In order to be penalized for hoarding grain, one had to possess quantities too large for personal consumption. Either he intended to sell it, or he just morbidly intended to deny it to people, to let it rot. Or maybe it was an art installation.

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On the contrary - anyone who seeks to explain away the vast amount of evidence in favour of conspiracy theories and complicated word games hasn't a clue

1 mark deducted for not being Curse of Fenric. Insert 'The' into previous if you are Ant-Mac

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You mean like idiots who argue that the spelling of names in Elizabethan times is evidence? Or idiots who think you can tell the playwright's opinions of things from opinions expressed by characters in the works attribution to Shakespeare???

REALLY??????

By the way, I am a lawyer, by profession.

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[deleted]

You obviously don't know what "evidence" means. Anyone who believes the man of Stratford wrote the plays simply doesn't have a clue about the topic.


You got that about exactly backwards. Wait, let me rephrase that. Scratch the "about".

Datta. Dayadhvam. Damyata.

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[deleted]

The more we learn about him, the more we know it was him who wrote the plays.

Not really.

A lot of actors deny the authorship because of an allegedly luck/curse tradition. While others just think it's an effrontery to a man they consider a genius.

The real truth of the matter is that the plays, and specifically the tragedies, were a social and law enforcement tool that exists to this day.

The idea is that you show someone an act or crime, and their conscience will get the better of those with a sense of shame and fear.

Therefore it only works on those with a sense of worth about others. It will not work on someone who is psychopathic.

Fortunately media is democratizing. Which means that as more people have access to the creation of visual stories, the more they understand the tools and traditions passed down through the performing arts.

This includes exposing Queen Elizabeth the First's security apparatus, which includes the Earl of Oxford, De'Vere.

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What in God's name are you on about?

1 mark deducted for not being Curse of Fenric. Insert 'The' into previous if you are Ant-Mac

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It's hard to tell but I think he's warming up to claim that Shakespeare/De Vere is the author of Prime Suspect.

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Law Enforcement.

The portfolio, I think, can be broken into three catagories;
The sonets
The comedies
The tragedies

The tragedies tend to vest themselves in emotional expressions of crime. I don't think a barely literate Shakespeare had the kind of education needed to write the plays, and that DeVere was motivated through artistic inspiration combined with being asked to "stage crimes" for the people to see. Possibly for the Queen's own security apparatus.

It's an old police tactic where you stage a crime or act or something related to some incident being investigated, and the suspect is so wrought with nervous tension that he (or she) lets their nerves get the best of them by thinking that "they know", meaning that they've been found out.

The comedies, one could say, were crimes against the heart, so to speak. And so the themes of betrayal and hidden passion are a kind of social crime.

My perspective is that these tactics may have been imported at some point after the founding of the nation. Or were in use, but fell by the way side, and then reintroduced.

I mean Hamlet himself actually performed this very tactic in his mini-play within the play proper. That's how it works. And I think that's how a lot of the Tragedies in the portfolio were meant to function.

Therefore, just thinking about it as I write this post, giving the authorship to Shakespeare may have been a security measure to protect DeVere.

... yeah, that makes more sense than anything else.

Maybe I'll write a book on the subject some day, and then you all can argue, gripe and moan about it when a movie's made.

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Well it's a barmy theory without the slightest bit of evidence to support it, so situation normal in Oxforde land
1 mark deducted for not being Curse of Fenric. Insert 'The' into previous if you are Ant-Mac

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I do hope the idiot is still blocking me with his standard message. Because what he calls the portfolio consists of

The long poems, V&A and RoL
The History plays
The Comedies
The Tragedies
The Greek and Roman Plays
The Sonnets
The Late Romances.

He's at least four categories short in his taxonomy. Clearly what make sense to someone who knows as little about the work as blueghost can be entirely overlooked by anyone who has opened a book on the subject.

The problem with blueghost and his ilk is that they learn everything they know about Shakespeare from books written by Oxfordians who know little more than he does.

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This is seriously unhinged, even for blueghost. By the way, he has me on ignore - as he eventually has everyone who tries to upset his pattern of delusions - and when next he checks in will write a mendacious, foolish and self important post advising every one of this fact. Because the real point of an ignore feature is to let people know you are ignoring them.

Datta. Dayadhvam. Damyata.

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