MovieChat Forums > The Host (2013) Discussion > Aliens who are kind, intelligent and gen...

Aliens who are kind, intelligent and genocidal? Author fail.

posted 9 years ago by gehrken_de
31 replies | jump to latest

I saw the movie and read half of the book, but I just don't get the premise:
The Aliens are
- intelligent. This is shown by their technological knowhow. They are also very experienced because of their age.
- kind. They are not merely kind, they are the kindest and gentlest and best in the whole universe.
- genocidal. They have killed off nearly the whole of humanity which would be around 7 billion and that was not the first race.

These three things together are completely implausible or rather outright impossible.
- If they are kind and intelligent, they would not do what they did. They claim it is because humans are murderous and ruin the planet. But this argument fails as they kill off all humans including those who fight these very problem. Intelligent and kind people would try to find another way then all-out murder. Even in human history there are only a few cases where complete murder has been tried and even in those cases it was clear even to the killers that they did something wrong. The souls surpass any of these human cruelties by far. Their argument comes off as rather made up because it's more convenient for them to condemn as many humans as possivle in order to get more hosts so that more souls can have a good experience.
- If they are kind and murderous, they must be completely dumb. Actually the author tries to convey this combination. The souls as a whole failed to even get the hint when the seaweed people rather chose suicide than occupation. Wanda as an individual who is more than 1000 years old and took part in several genocides does not seem to grasp it. But none of them is dumb, their intelligence and morality is shown.
- If they are intelligent and murderous, it would fit. It would like most other alien invasion scenarios.

I was really annoyed when Wanda became enraged after finding out what the doc did. 'Ohh, we killed billions of humans and I myself killed lots of people from all races. And we did not do it to survice, we just want to have a good and cool lifestyle experience and all of that is a-ok. But don't you dare touch a soul! If you kill a single soul by trying to rescue a human, you are an evil monster!' It is very convenient that no other character calls her out on that.

I get that the author wanted another take on the normal 'evil aliens invade' scenario. She constructs this but fails to make it even slightly plausible. It does not make sense.
I really wanted to like the story because I like the people who made the movie (Niccol, Hurt, Ronan, Kruger). I feel sorry for them. They could only fail with the source material they were given.

[–] India_Ana 9 years ago

What? Aliens can't be just as misguided as humans? Aliens can't see themselves as good and kind, yet not be truly that way when it comes to dealing with beings other than their own kind?

Aliens are just as susceptible to their own delusions of grandeur as anyone else.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://bthetwilightsaga.runboard.com/

[–] gehrken_de 9 years ago

But they aren't presented as misguided. The book presents them as these super-good beings. Even the humans in the cave see Wanda as a living saint, despite her being a multiple and unrepenting murderer with very selfish reasons ('we want to experience their lives').

[–] India_Ana 9 years ago

That doesn't mean that they aren't misguided. Most of the book is written from an alien point-of-view: Wanda's. So of course she's going to see only good from her species. And the humans are judging the species from observing Wanda, who is probably more saintly than the others of her kind. Wanda could have ignored Melanie. At one point in the story Wanda does get rid of Melanie, and has to fight to get her back.

Also, a lot of the other aliens are preventing their normal human offspring from becoming hosts. That should speak volumes as to their redemption. 

Readers are free to interpret an authors works however they see fit. And who is to say what the author intended? She created a character who took over and told their story as they see it. That doesn't mean the author sees it in the same way. And it doesn't mean that readers can't see something the author didn't see.

...

The aliens see the humans as inferior, and unworthy of rehabilitation. Why save the humans when you can control them and make a better world for yourself? (This is what any human would do. Aliens are no better or worse than humans) The aliens don't see it as murder, but as euthanasia. They are humanely putting humans down for the betterment of Earth.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://bthetwilightsaga.runboard.com/

[–] gehrken_de 9 years ago

A lot of what doesn't work in the story or what comes across as very contrieved or plot holish is directly caused by the flawed premise.

Humans judging souls by the example Wanda sets? A single soul after billions of other souls already murdered nearly the complete human race? Who herself has an extreme double standard on how the souls are allowed to treat humans but not the other way around?

The thing with the human child that shall be allowed to live by her alien parents (although the parents are the human bodies abducted by those aliens) is another contrievance. What will they do when the child grows up? When it gets emotions like anger or hate? When it finds out what the aliens have done to humanity?

Wanda looks upon the child as a chance for humans and souls to co-exist peacefully. After the whole genocide she expects that the remaining humans just accept that and be friendly to the souls whereas the souls are obliged to nothing, not even acknowleding their murders.

The aliens are supposed to be kind and intelligent. People who are that way would come up with something different than just 100% euthanasia which includes any human who would share their world view.

[–] Ivor_Bucket 9 years ago

Aliens who are kind, intelligent and genocidal? Author fail.

I saw the movie and read half of the book

No, reader fail.

Now read the whole book and try to understand Wanda's slow realisation that her and her species' presence on planet earth is a huge moral contradiction, a realisation that leads to more than one major existential crisis for her, and her admission that, "We had no right to take your world from you."

It even leads to her heartfelt cry, "I am tired of being a parasite... Do I have to feel guilty forever for taking someone's life away from them?"

Now, if you want to criticise the film for not representing the quite complex moral issues explored in the book, I might half agree with you. Emphasis on 'might'.

[–] India_Ana 9 years ago

You know, your point would lead to a very interesting discussion.

A parasite cannot live without a host. Therefore what are the moral/ethical rights and wrongs of either having to take over the life force of another, or having to depend solely on the life force of another?

How can a parasite be blamed for doing whatever is necessary to survive, especially when they cannot survive all on their own? How are they to blame for what they are? For what they must do to survive?

If I were a parasite, I'd rather be the dominate source, than the one helplessly depending on another to graciously take care of me.

I think the author was brilliant to stir up such questions. It is up to the reader to dig deeper when such thoughts arise.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://bthetwilightsaga.runboard.com/

[–] dobraye_utra 9 years ago

Hey if they don't want to be parasites they can always return to Origin, to live in their natural environment.

"Guns are better than fish!" Kargesh

[–] India_Ana 9 years ago

This is true. But I was lumping all parasites into one group. Which I realized I shouldn't have done after posting. Not all parasites are 100% reliant on another source for survival, and that is the train of thought I was going with in my post. Which I still think would make for a good discussion.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://bthetwilightsaga.runboard.com/

[–] gehrken_de 9 years ago

That is another thing that does not work out. Intelligent people would have found a way after 1000 years to create a technology that does not require them to infest other people. If those aliens are kind, they would use this technology. A true parasite does need it's host to live. These aliens do not need it. They chose to do this to other people. They do it to the seaweed people who are not that (supposedly) destructive as the humans.

They infested the first race in self defence because those where evil. But when they continued to do this with all these other races, it makes them murderous and evil themselves. Which in turn clashes with them being so kind and gentle. It does not make sense to me.

[–] gehrken_de 9 years ago

Why reader fail? It is exactly my point: If Wanda and the aliens are doing this for more than a thousand years and they are intelligent and kind, they should have come to the conclusion way earlier that there is something wrong with what they do. But out of the blue this single alien (that itself took part in every genocide) finds out it is wrong?

What is so complex about the morals of murdering billions of humans and several other races? I see what the author wanted to accomplish, but it just doesn't work the way she set things up.

[–] dobraye_utra 9 years ago

I'd say it was established that they haven't been on Earth for thousands of years. Yes, they've colonised other worlds and Wanda herself is probably older than human civilisation; but the souls have never encountered 'resistance' before. Never has a species fought back against occupation. True, in the books, the species of one world engaged in mass suicide to escape, but another species actually welcomed them.

Do people who buy KFC consider the millions of chickens that die to fill their orders? I imagine that for the souls, considering our (human) opinion would be like asking if you car had an opinion.

"Guns are better than fish!" Kargesh

[–] gehrken_de 9 years ago

I don't know. Regarding humans eating chickens, there are already people who find it wrong. There are even several degrees of wrong. Nearly everyone who would like a steak or chicken wings would not eat a primate because those already show a rather high degree of intelligence. Then you have vegetarians and at the extreme end vegans or the people who would not even pick a fruit from a tree but only eat those that have dropped to the ground. If chickens would show signs of a higher intelligence (like humans do by covering earth with all sorts of buildings and technology and flying into space (to mention just one aspect)), we would not eat them this readily. If chickens told us that they do not want to be killed and eaten and they could do so by using a sophisticated language or even write it down, both signs of high intelligence, it would be the end of KFC.

The souls are intelligent. Therefore they are able to perceive differences between a car, a chicken and a human. If they still decide to wipe us out (vegans included), they are not kind and gentle anymore.

Maybe it's just me. I cannot wrap my head around this premise of the story. Maybe there are souls who argue against those genocides but the story as told by Wanda does not mention them. But I still could not fathom how the other part of the aliens would still carry on with the killings and retain their goodness, especially if there already is a voice telling them it's wrong. If they are intelligent and good, they would listen to that voice.

And based on all of this the character of Wanda comes across badly. A single individual is not bound to statistics, but I still get the feeling she must be the dumbest of all of them when even after 1000 years she only now realizes what she has been doing all the time. And still she is extremely hypocritical about it all.

[–] dobraye_utra 9 years ago

Sometimes, it takes a shift in perspective to change your world view. Before Earth, the souls never had any kind of resistance to their colonisation. Yes, they know we're intelligent, but then, dolphins are intelligent. Their view is that taking the planet is for its/our own good. They see us from observing our behaviour and stereotyping us all that way: ie, all humans are inherently deceitful, violent, and dangerous. We kill each other on a daily basis, we kill our children, destroy our planet and don't seem to care about the consequences. To them, the invasion was the only way to stop the world from being destroyed and wasting a perfectly good new home for them. Basically, our relative intelligence is negated by our stupidity, violence and self-destructive nature.

Also, other souls don't get the opportunity Wanda had, to get to know her host. Before the humans had learned what had been going on, implanted souls wiped out the minds of their hosts, so they never gained a different perspective. And even if the human survived, not all souls were like Wanda; look at the Seeker.

Bottom line, the souls see themselves as more deserving than us because they aren't killing each other or destroying the planet for selfish greed. Like Loki said: "an ant has no quarrel with a boot."

"Guns are better than fish!" Kargesh

[–] gehrken_de 9 years ago

They may take the planet for its own good, but definitly not for our good, I mean the good of humans. If they observe us and see only violence, deceit and destruction, than they make a conscious effort to ignore all the good sides: The love of parents for their children and vice versa. The efforts humans take in order to undo pollution. For example in the 1970s the Rhine river was dead. Then an effort was made to filter wastes in the air and the water and today there are fish again in the river. Humans do can and make good, and the souls ignore that because it serves their own need. They want the planet for themselves. Which directly contradict them being so kind and gentle.

The seeker is a good example that the souls are not that good as it is claimed.

If they are so enarmored with experiencing human life by using our bodies as infested zombies, they must stumble across the multiple examples in our cultures where it is made very clear that taking away our free will and kill us of is regarded as outright evil. Still they do it.

Altogether you have some points, but they do not convince me.

[–] camille_pcalderon 9 years ago

This is a science fictions movie and book so anything is possible

[–] gehrken_de 9 years ago

That is a misconception. It is true that I can write up anything. I could write 'This ice cream looks like vanilla, it tastes like vanilla and it is made out of vanilla but in fact it is chocolate.' It's easy to write but it does not make sense. In science fiction you can write up any technology, biology, culture, whatever. But logic still is logic and if I write up a collection of non-sensical stuff it just takes the reader out of the story. My suspension of disbelief was broken by these kind, intelligent and genocidal aliens.

[–] camille_pcalderon 9 years ago

Okay maybe I should rephrase it but my exact point is it is FICTIONAL and plus to the one who started this...it's an author's work and I would like to see you try to do waaaaaay better than this

[–] gehrken_de 9 years ago

No way I could write a complete story like this. But that is a different thing. I cannot built a car but I can tell if it's broken and does not drive.

[–] jennygerms21-226-534587 9 years ago

To me, that's the whole point of the story and what makes it somewhat intriguing. These aliens aren't cruel or evil. They just don't really see humans as fully sentient beings. They aren't really doing harm from their point of view (they aren't actually "killing" them). Wanda is okay with this line of thinking at first. Until she understands that humans can indeed love and think, and are even more complex than her own race in some ways. You're supposed to question at certain points who's really right here. It's also why you begin to see more of these aliens "going native" as they begin to see what Wanda has seen. It shows the greatest of intentions can have terrible results.

[–] dobraye_utra 9 years ago

Good points there. Another argument I might make on this would perhaps be to analogize the situation to say, humans and our pets. People (mostly) love their pets, but from the animals' point of view, we can be doing cruel, evil and downright despicable things to them. How many guys out there would appreciate being dragged into a room, strapped to a table & getting their bits choppped off? (At least the souls aren't doing that!) We might think that's okay, but I'd bet if your dog, cat, horse, whatever could talk, they'd be kinda upset about it. We don't ask the pets what they want, but it doesn't mean we don't care about them. The souls don't consider us or our opinions, because our opinions are 'the wrong ones'.

To the previous poster, the Seeker was dangerous and unstable because of a combination of factors which were better explained in the book. Ie, that was her first host, and she wasn't prepared for the strength of will (or how unpleasant) her host would be/have.

"Guns are better than fish!" Kargesh

[–] nephihaha 9 years ago

It's called dramatic conflict, and is a common theme in theatre. Many real people have internal conflicts and contradictions within themselves. It's rampant in the human species, and I don't find it implausible in an ET species.

The aliens think the end justifies the means, but resent using violence.

Have you not noticed that many real people are complete hypocrites? How many people enter politics with good intentions, and end up corrupt, but justify their behaviour to themselves.

The contradiction is flagged up at the very beginning, when it's pointed out that war and pollution have been eliminated, but that Earth is under an extraterrestrial occupation.

--
It's not "Sci-Fi", it's SF!

"Calvinism is a very liberal religious ethos." - Truekiwijoker

[–] 9 years ago

[deleted]

[–] spookyrat1 9 years ago

I was really annoyed when Wanda became enraged after finding out what the doc did.

Seeing Wanderer is a Soul her immediate reaction is unsurprising, but the film never really seeks to explore the contradictions of the peaceful but parasitic Souls. Instead the focus is well and truly on the romantic triangle. 🐭

[–] koen-56 8 years ago

I quite understand how sometimes a particular idea rubs up the wrong way and then its hard to suspend disbelief and enjoy the story.

That didn't happen for me with this movie and the conflict the OP mentions I interpreted to be perhaps also caused because the hosts were human and our ability to kill and an ability to hold two opposing ideas at the same time came with the body. We find ways to make the story work if we like it. I genuinely liked the film.

[–] terryperring104 8 years ago

I really don't know where to start, in pointing out how wrong you are? Is it a case of mind-set/conditioning? I ask myself..

For example, ever heard of the holocaust that happened in 1939-45? Now-I think that I can guarantee, that 99.9% of Germans at the time, were kind, decent human beings. It only takes the actions of a charismatic few-and the inertia of a frightened many, for terrible atrocities to happen.

So, to say it's an author 'fail' just because these aliens were 'good' yet genocidal, and; ''If they are kind and intelligent, they would not do what they did''- is poorly thought out.

We end up judging these aliens only from a very tiny sample.

[–] Moonlighty 8 years ago

Oh no, not making a comparison to Nazis! That's an auto argument fail. See: Godwin's Law.

-
Consider the daffodil. And while you're doing that I'll be over here looking through your stuff.

[–] terryperring104 8 years ago

Not really a true comparison-just an arbritary analogy.
'Godwins law' can be irritating for this very reason:- someone makes a good, valid point, using the holocaust as an analogous example-but then its shot down because of this 'law'. Hmmmm....

[–] Moonlighty 8 years ago

An analogy is a comparison. But the fact you had to do the lowest common denominator and throw around a Nazi comparison already showed you aren't so much with the word meanings and thoughtful analyses.

-
Consider the daffodil. And while you're doing that I'll be over here looking through your stuff.

[–] ilykyu 7 years ago

OP mentioned GENOCIDE. I would think mentioning Nazis becomes fair game. Hutu rebels and Spanish conquistadors would probably fly over the head of some like yourself

"what is your major malfunction numbnuts?!!"