Sympathetic to nazi-Germany?


It seems that there are quite a few films and series being made where if not the outright nazis themselves but at least some parts of the military of nazi-Germany are being shown in a relatively positive light. Not sure why this is, maybe it's part of the ongoing fascination with WW 2 and nazi-Germany that seems to exist especially in the west.

The Laconia incident seems to be part of this, the u-boat arm of the Kriegsmarine was responsible for the deaths of many allied civilians, they weren't all the gentlemen depicted in TSotL.

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I didn't think this was sympathetic. I do think it presents things in a more rounded fashion without needing to rely on caricatures. What it did do, which you see in some films (like Polanski's Pianist) is the distinction between the armed forces and the Third Reich. The tension between the two is illustrated in this production between Hilda and Hartenstein and between characters in the German HQ that Hartenstein messages.

Re-the gentlemen bit, that's commented directly upon by Hilda. She tells them they're not gentlemen for the numbers they killed including her baby. I recommend a re-watch to listen to what is being said between characters and the message coming from that. Hartenstein's unusual response comes from guilt after realising his error at bombing a boat with civilians. He realises it was wrong.

rouge silk,
fierce concentrated joy,
fires the blood

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It's strange that you are not sure why this is. It is because that is what actually happened, this is not fiction by some neonazi apologetics.

As the previous replyer mentioned, you fail to make the distinction between the Nazi government and the armed forces (not including the Waffen-SS). No doubt because of quite a few films and series being made showing the German forces as pure evil and full-embodied jew hating master race killers, which is blatantly an insult to truth and reason.

If you read books by, or would have been to testimonies of torpedoing survivors, you would see that they held the German navy in regard.

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I know quite a bit about the Kriegsmarine, war crimes committed by German military and also about the u-boat war in the Atlantic. What you seem to forget is that it was the German u-boats that were responsible for the deaths of about 30 000 Allied seamen and civilians of many different nationalities. They weren't chivalric gentlemen. If your ship was torpedoed for example during the Murmansk convoys you died a really unpleasant death either by freezing in the cold water or by burning to death by burning oil that covered the surface of the sea.

There are many accounts of German military soldiers, not just the Waffen-SS troops, committing atroticities on all fronts of the war.

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And the Allied subs didn't sink a single Axis ship, right?

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Some people a little bit naive when it comes to war, aren't they?

Yes, German soldiers killed Allied ones. Atrocities everywhere!



----Drive (1997), Marc Dacascos---
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IW8rRybMOEU

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As far as I got it (being German, having read tons of reviews about "Das Boot" etc., German u-boat crews were the last ones to be "toeing the line". Meaning... They did what they had to do, their "job". Either follow orders and kill others or disobey orders and get imprisoned or even killed themselves. But by far not all of them "liked" what they did or why they did it.
If you watch "Das Boot", you'll notice. Only the guy who constantly wears his uniform as neatly as possible is what you might call "toeing the party line" (while being an "outsider" as well).
"Der Alte" (the captain) and the rest of the crew do their job (almost?) only because they have no other choice. I don't how much of that survives because of subtitles and translations...

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"If your ship was torpedoed for example during the Murmansk convoys you died a really unpleasant death either by freezing in the cold water or by burning to death by burning oil that covered the surface of the sea."

A bit about the Laconia incident and the sequence of events:
The reason for the order to not rescue surviving sailors was exactly this incident. After the U boats with the survivors of the Laconia were bombed, Dönitz ordered that no U boat should take survivors aboard unless they had vital intelligence.

Comparable orders were in place in the UK and the United States from day one of their entries into the war, as well (source among others: Nuremberg trial minutes, Dönitz - quoted at Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconia_incident#Consequences). Dönitz was acquitted in this specific case.
--
"Nobody ever said the IMDB was polite company." MichaelD on the Luther (2003) board.

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There are many accounts of German military soldiers, not just the Waffen-SS troops, committing atroticities on all fronts of the war.

History is always written by the victors. Truth is the Allies committed far more atrocities than the Nazi's. With the Soviet Union committing the majority of them. The United States was not excempt from it. The American sub fleet never gave assistance to survivors of sunken Japaneese ships, often shooting at them. They routinely shot German and Japaneese soldiers after they surrendered. Covered up by the vitorous US were the mass killing of Italian cillivans in an Italian village. Starving a million German soldiers to death at the end of WWII, detailed in a book "Other Loses" by James Bacque. The Americans also forcibley returned Russian conscripts (POW's) to the USSR that fought for Germany against their will. These Russians were either immeadiately shot or worked to death in a gulag (survival rate was about 2 months) Alot of these Russians when upon learning that they would be returned committed sucide. When the ships holding the Russians landed in Odessa, American soldiers had to beat them to get them off the ship. This was detailed in a book "Operation Keelhaul" by Julius Epstien. I'm not excusing the Germans, they were no angels, but neither was the vitorous allies.

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Typical American propaganda *beep* Someone defecated stright into your head with this stuff when you were young. Julius Epstien, you said? It figures...

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Oh dear or rather Mein Gott;-P
Another Netxpert..

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Well, it is a story of one incident and focussed on one U-boat commander and crew. Here's some conjecture on my part, however, and I don't know what Lt. Hartenstein thought/saw of the result of the almost 20 previous "kills" of the U-156. Could he have started to have a "change of heart" upon seeing the horrible effects first hand of 20th century "push-button" warfare, where civilians get little warning or chance to get out of harm's way? A far cry from 19th and earlier, when armies/navies faced each other in pitched battles on open seas or fields. The U-156 only made one other successful attack in '42. Do we know how/why they ended up in the Caribbean, presumably on orders from high command, where they were sunk in early '43? Once there, could Hartenstein have just been trying to sit it out, or after realizing the horrible consequences of his actions, let fate decide if the U-156 would survive or be sunk with all hands? Presumably, the crew may not have agreed to surrender at that stage, although they should have realized they would lose, with the U.S.A. having gone directly into the war. His portrait gives the impression that he was a gentle soul. BTW as a kid growing up during and after WWII, remember we had a captured German sub on exhibit at the port of Montreal, as they did come into the St. Lawrence estuary. It seemed rather small.

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First time German submarine war started during WWI as counter measure against the British Blockade because that didn't spare contraband (food) against international law.
Maybe You forgot that the British Airforce prepared for unrestricted bomb war against civilian targets since the 1920's. A long time before WWII British military and political leaders stated that starving and bombing civilians were the proper conduct of war for Britain.

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