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What caused Veda to be the way she was? spoilers

posted 10 years ago by CindyH
21 replies | jump to latest

Warning: Spoilers (I get so sick of having to warn people of this because they shouldn't be here if they didn't want them!) /rant

Ever since I watched the '45 version (and read the book), I've always wondered what it was that pushed Veda into becoming a psychopath. Where was the moment when Veda went wrong?

Was it Mildred kicking Bert out of the house?
Was it Ray's death and the fact that her mother wasn't there?

I know what it isn't. Despite what Veda says, Mildred's work as a waitress had nothing to do with it and her hatred for her mother. We know this because Veda worships her father, a drunk who is out of work. That's hardly high class.

Then there is something else. When Mildred figures out Veda's little plot on getting out of her contract, Veda wants to quickly exit. Why?

The truth was out there, so hiding it from her father obviously wasn't the problem. After all, we know she has no shame even where her father is concerned, else she never would have run off with her Mother's husband. Bert knows what she's done, so there is no surprise here that Veda is a vicious daughter.

Besides, Veda is good at lying and plotting so she could just as easily deny it. The problem is that she gets nervous.

The only conclusion I can come to is jealousy. Veda was jealous beyond all reason of her mother.

* Bert loves Mildred and obviously chose to go back to her. In fact, he even sides with her.
* Mildred landed Monte, when Veda could not. In fact, Monte wouldn't have had anything to do with Veda were it not for Mildred's money. Monte only agreed to run away with Veda when it was clear she would make a fortune, finally.
* Veda discovered she had no talent (at first anyway). Mildred had friends, she was a great cook and had a great business mind. Veda had none of that. The only talent she had was seducing a rich Hollywood kid. That wouldn't get her very far.

I think that once Veda realized that she'd never amount to anything, she runs away to get away from her successful mother. It's just a stroke of luck that she discovers she has a great voice and can capitalize on that.

This is the only explanation I can come up with. What do you all think? Am I missing something else?

Random Thoughts: http://goo.gl/eXk3O

[–] first-things-first 10 years ago

They say there's good and evil in all of us, and Veda took selfish to a level that was out there. She loved her father because he came from money, and provided her with status until the crash. No one thing made her who she was, in my opinion. It's more of a family tragedy of over-indulgence. I have just found that NO is not a bad word. In fact it's the best safe word in the world. It protects us from ourselves.
Veda does throw it in Mildred's face repeatedly that Mildred wasn't there when Ray died. But it's more like an insult, judging her mother as unfit. Was she narcissistic? That's close, since she lacked empathy. She lied to get what she wanted. Took advantage of people, manipulated her enabler (mom), and thought of no one but herself. The bedroom scene where she baits Mildred was pure Veda. How Monty caters to Veda in front of Mildred and the theatrics at the mirror only serve to upset Mildred and push her over the edge. Veda needed to break her contract, and a scandal would work best. Veda isn't afraid of a scandal, if it's a means to an end. A love triangle is bad publicity in that era. The cigarette company would break the contract just for that. But Veda learned to lie from her mom. Mildred was rarely honest with Veda, and Veda kept count. Maybe mom was co-dependent. She had trouble adjusting to a lower status also. And if it hadn't been for the kids, I think she would have starved due to pride.
Veda would have kept on using mom, in my opinion. Her mom's success bought her toys, so why leave before she could leave forever. Plus keeping in contact with her dad, only made Mildred work harder to please Veda.

If we can save humanity, we become the caretakers of the world

[–] chas437 10 years ago

Could it be that Veda is just a demon seed?

Obviously she had episodes in her life that affected her development. But even as a young child, she was contrary and never pleased with anything her mother did, recall the scenes where she chided her mother for wearing a uniform, or snipped at her mother for having to bake cakes for a living. This was all before the death of Ray.

It seems the more Mildred tried desperately for Veda's love, the more hell bent Veda became on destroying her mother.

It occurred to me that Monty may have been with Veda since she was a child. Monty was a demon in his own right, the excuses he came up with for his behavior remind me of how men used to talk to women in an attempt to control them, totally guilting them in an irrational way.

Maybe, some people are just born with the desire to hurt those who love them the most?

I'm a civilian, I'm not a trout

[–] first-things-first 10 years ago

Yes to being bad from the beginning, I just don't want to believe it. And I thought Monty was too familiar with young Veda myself, but I dropped the idea in favor of hero worship and a crush on her part. Monty was Veda's ideal dream guy. As for the desire to hurt loved ones, define hurt. Love should never make you abuse them. And you can love someone and leave them (hurting them) because who you are with them. But I believe that if your heart wants something that goes against your foundation, it won't last. You will question its validity, and walk away. How Veda treated Mildred wasn't love, in my opinion.

If we can save humanity, we become the caretakers of the world

[–] chas437 10 years ago

How Veda treated Mildred wasn't love, in my opinion.

That's quite an understatement. The source of Veda's obsessive hatred for her mother, and desire to ruin her mother is at the heart of the film.

We are made to wonder if Veda made Burt leave Mildred at the very beginning. Fascinating character study that goes much deeper than the old film, Kate Winslet is brilliant..

I'm a civilian, I'm not a trout

[–] first-things-first 10 years ago

After looking up hate, you maybe right. I didn't see hate, but a consistent desire to belittle and demean, like Mrs. Forrester. She didn't hate Mildred, she didn't consider Mildred important, therefore, not entitled to the same privileges. I attribute hate with violence, to want to cause harm to someone, to never have a kind thought and take nothing from them. Because it would prove that you needed them. But hate can mean different things to different people.
I like both the film and the miniseries. Both stories are told well, and can represent a family. The miniseries left no doubt that Veda was more than a one-dimensional person. In the movie, you could excuse Veda, by clinging to some child-like fantasy of one acting out, no matter what the consequences. But in the miniseries, you are forced to see an adult make choices.

I edit this for future readers:
My last definition of hate "to never have a kind thought and take nothing from them" is in response to being hurt by people I loved and loved me. It's a defense mechanism not to let them hurt me. Please don't confuse this with protecting yourself from harm. If someone is hurting you, you have a right to distance yourself, to refuse anything from them. They cannot buy your love. That is not hate, that is establishing a core value. But in my case, my need to keep something I wanted, did more harm than good. I held on to something that hurt me for fear of losing something I wanted. And in turn I hated it. It was those feelings of hate, that helped me let go. I exploded and fought back. It's too bad that I couldn't recognize that you don't need hate to find strength, sooner in my life. But I'm happy that I did, because I began to accept that hate was a waste of time. Today I know there is strength in love and kindness, by just saying No.

So, if you hate how someone treats you, you learn to hate them. A better emotion is to accept that you want something different and have kindness for them. And not that kill them with kindness, kindness from the heart. It's no one's fault that two people want or need different things.

If we can save humanity, we become the caretakers of the world

[–] chas437 10 years ago

I've never seen the original film. I've always wanted to see the miniseries because of Winslet's performance.

You make some excellent points, and I agree. For example, my first impression was that Veda's affair with Monty was about hurting her mother. But, it seems, she was just in it for herself, and didn't consider her mother important enough to care about her feelings.

Mrs Forrester is a very small character, but she's actually important in demonstrating the 'patrician' elitism that Mildred faced.

One point I'm unclear on is whether or not Wally Burgen and Veda and perhaps even Monty conspired to ruin Mildred financially. We know that Veda had already gone behind Mildred's back earlier. I would have loved to have seen the scene where Mildred asks Veda for money!

The source of Veda's pathology is complex. One of the most powerful scenes is when Mildred seeks out the Italian conductor who is mentoring Veda. He says Veda is essentially 'a snake, a bitch, someone you wouldn't let in your house', or something to this effect. While 'hate' may be too strong of a word, we can agree that her actions towards Mildred were 'hateful'?

I'm a civilian, I'm not a trout

[–] first-things-first 10 years ago

Since I don't have a definitive No, I say yes to hateful. Mildred's only flaw in my opinion was her need of love from Veda. But even that seemed tainted by obsession. I have read posts that say they will do everything and anything for loved ones. But I know there's a point of no return for me. I won't be kicked forever. I will get up, dust myself off, and leave. And it would take more than words to convince that they wanted help, a plan of managed care would be required. The plan could fail, but we keep trying. Until the familiarity of being used returns. I say show who you are so people have a choice to love you. But you need to know who you are before you can tell anyone.
The only statement I don't understand is your declaration of Mrs. Forrester's importance in a man's world. Are you saying she got her power from her husband (his status), or she had power of her own in a man's world. The latter seemed correct, since she knew the game and played it well. But I could be missing the point in that she was forced to play the game, like Mildred.

If we can save humanity, we become the caretakers of the world

[–] chas437 10 years ago

What you say is true. This is a complex work with many angles to it. But doesn't any mother desperately need the love of her child?

I see Mrs Forrester as an enforcer, if you will, of the patrician elitism. Even though she is a woman in a man's world, she has power over other women, at least in her own mind. She is an example of what you said 'no amount of money will open some doors in Mildred's world'.

I'm a civilian, I'm not a trout

[–] first-things-first 10 years ago

Yes, any mother want the love of their child. But not to buy or take, it should be given freely. And thank-you for the clarification.

If we can save humanity, we become the caretakers of the world

[–] newfrontier45 10 years ago

The rod was spared and the child was spoiled. She was never taught respect, much like children today. You don't have to have money and drown your child in gifts to spoil it. Veda became a monster and it was all her mother's doing. Mildred killed herself and the things she accomplished are to be commended but she was not a good mother to them. You do a child no good to coddle and cater to it. You don't teach a child respect, humility and perspective by negotiating with it. Children don't raise themselves and only make the decisions you teach them to.

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[–] mathmaniac 10 years ago

The mother-daughter conflict was classic. It was a power struggle - never ending, with some love thrown in the mix. But an intense power struggle. Mother and daughter understood each other very very well - and this kept the power struggle going.

When Mildred goes to Veda's voice teacher and says she will pay for the lessons, what was her motiviation? I believe it was because she treasured the role she created for herself that allowed her to say to Veda, 'Everything you are, you owe to me.'

This is just as cruel as saying, 'You are nothing without me.'

That Veda knew her mother would try to do that shows how well she understood what her mother wanted to do. She told her voice teacher, 'My mother is going to come to you and tell you she wants to do this and you have to tell her no.'

The voice teacher recognized Veda was a snake and yet, he also recognized that the mother was someone to be reckoned with, and he followed Veda's instructions. Unfortunately, nothing that he said to Mildred mattered at all to her.

When Veda came to her mother's house in the final scene, she didn't have to make that trip. Her mother could have said, 'I'm so happy for you, darling - keep in touch and have a nice life.'

That was far from her message, though. If Veda was across the country, living the life she wanted, it was not going to be something Mildred could claim as her own accomplishment. Her face pressed to the car window, screaming at her daughter, did not say, 'Veda, you've hurt me!' It said, 'Veda, you may think you have won this round, but I'll have the final insult to hurl at you: I never want to see you again!'

I wouldn't be surprised if Mildred, in the future, wouldn't see her daughter's success and try to approach her again. I'd hope that Veda, older and stronger and wiser, would handle her mother then like a snake - wearing heavy gloves, keeping the distance, and being very wary.

[–] HornyDonkey 9 years ago

I don't see Veda as more than a psychopathic biatch.

When Mildred goes to Veda's voice teacher and says she will pay for the lessons, what was her motiviation? I believe it was because she treasured the role she created for herself that allowed her to say to Veda, 'Everything you are, you owe to me.'

This is just as cruel as saying, 'You are nothing without me.'

That's an exaggeration. If you count in the way Mildred tried to reach to her daughter since the beginning, you would see that she wanted nothing but happiness for her. She encouraged her to learn and master the piano. She might have put a little pressure in Veda by constantly complimenting her talent. But Mildred certainly didn't have any problem with her giving up the piano. She didn't pressure her to do anything.
The scene with the voice teacher was just her way of trying to feel a sense of being in her daughter life once again. She had been trying to connect with her prior to that scene, even the second after she kicked her out of the house, which was totally a spur of the moment.

When Veda came to her mother's house in the final scene, she didn't have to make that trip. Her mother could have said, 'I'm so happy for you, darling - keep in touch and have a nice life.'

That was far from her message, though. If Veda was across the country, living the life she wanted, it was not going to be something Mildred could claim as her own accomplishment. Her face pressed to the car window, screaming at her daughter, did not say, 'Veda, you've hurt me!' It said, 'Veda, you may think you have won this round, but I'll have the final insult to hurl at you: I never want to see you again!'

Well, she could have said that BS if only she hadn't realized that Veda was being a manipulative little psychopath. The way she said that she's living with Monty and how her voice was getting better and how she's getting a job showed that her visit was just a ploy to make herself sure that she knew that her mother knew that she hadn't defeated yet. It's the clear confrontational vibe Mildred got from Veda that made her realize that the little biatch was promising nothing but another heartbreak for her in the future.
I heavily doubt it that Mildred would try to approach Veda again after realizing how unfathomable and full of hatred she really was.
I just think that you need to watch the series again and see for yourself that all that Veda did toward her mother was mostly unprovoked and stemmed from her need to blame someone else for being a disappointment toward herself. Not only that, who sleeps with your own mother's husband and shows no regret whatsoever when caught red-handed?

[–] gaatka 9 years ago

That's an exaggeration. If you count in the way Mildred tried to reach to her daughter since the beginning, you would see that she wanted nothing but happiness for her. She encouraged her to learn and master the piano. She might have put a little pressure in Veda by constantly complimenting her talent. But Mildred certainly didn't have any problem with her giving up the piano. She didn't pressure her to do anything.
The scene with the voice teacher was just her way of trying to feel a sense of being in her daughter life once again. She had been trying to connect with her prior to that scene, even the second after she kicked her out of the house, which was totally a spur of the moment.

I saw it the same way the original poster saw it. It's completely inappropriate what her mother did offering money like that. If you are no longer a part of someone's life, you don't go behind their back and do something like that. That's definitely staking a claim and showing ownership. It isn't respectful.

Well, she could have said that BS if only she hadn't realized that Veda was being a manipulative little psychopath. The way she said that she's living with Monty and how her voice was getting better and how she's getting a job showed that her visit was just a ploy to make herself sure that she knew that her mother knew that she hadn't defeated yet. It's the clear confrontational vibe Mildred got from Veda that made her realize that the little biatch was promising nothing but another heartbreak for her in the future.
I heavily doubt it that Mildred would try to approach Veda again after realizing how unfathomable and full of hatred she really was. I just think that you need to watch the series again and see for yourself that all that Veda did toward her mother was mostly unprovoked and stemmed from her need to blame someone else for being a disappointment toward herself. Not only that, who sleeps with your own mother's husband and shows no regret whatsoever when caught red-handed?

I don't agree. When you're dealing with your child, you don't stoop to their level. Kids do it from the time they're young - try to push your buttons. You don't get worked up if you're confident, know their games, and are focused and intent on teaching them right from wrong. The mother related to her more as a friend than as someone who was responsible for aiding and supporting her child's progression into adulthood - not just in terms of her physical wellbeing, but also her emotional and psychological wellbeing. To me, everything Veda did to her mother was in response to the disgusting failure of a parent she was. Even the fact that she had no shame in front of her father was saying something. Sleeping with the man who has slept with the woman that your own father has slept with - that's disgusting and disrespectful. I think that you're right in that she was a disappointment to herself, and on some level she must have really hated herself to allow herself to slip into depravity the way she did. I see it as her acting out, and rightly targeting her mother for the role her mother played in shaping who she was. If she hated herself, she would surely hate the person that raised her and made her who she was. and her mother just wouldn't leave her alone. What respectable person would invite Veda in without an apology after all that? She must have just assumed she was sorry, assumed the business of cultivating empathy in another human being would have just taken care of itself. She was no longer responsible for Veda, but to me Veda was pushing her buttons trying to show her who [her daughter] was and was saying if you want to be in my life and me in your life, accept what's in front of you or do something to change it, but don't pretend it isn't there. Don't expect it to fix itself at your convenience. Same way Mildred ran her business from the start.

[–] HornyDonkey 9 years ago

I saw it the same way the original poster saw it. It's completely inappropriate what her mother did offering money like that. If you are no longer a part of someone's life, you don't go behind their back and do something like that. That's definitely staking a claim and showing ownership. It isn't respectful.

It was probably disrespectful, but an attempt at showing ownership? I think that's a bit extreme. She was just desperate. It was her last resort in trying to feel connected to her daughter. However, it's quite normal for parents to feel that they somehow own their children...some even take it to another level. But Mildred hadn't showed any sign of being a total control-freak to be that freakish.

To me, everything Veda did to her mother was in response to the disgusting failure of a parent she was

Yeah, she was a terrible parent, but not really "disgusting". She was inconsistent and lack of discipline as a parent, especially to an emotionally delicate child like Veda. But Veda...man...was she a psycho or what? I mean nobody with no psychopathic tendency would end up like her (cold-blooded, calculating, shameless, and remorseless) with a relatively harmless mother like Mildred. If Veda was normal psychologically, Mildred would have looked like a cool and supporting mom.

What respectable person would invite Veda in without an apology after all that? She must have just assumed she was sorry, assumed the business of cultivating empathy in another human being would have just taken care of itself. She was no longer responsible for Veda, but to me Veda was pushing her buttons trying to show her who [her daughter] was and was saying if you want to be in my life and me in your life, accept what's in front of you or do something to change it, but don't pretend it isn't there. Don't expect it to fix itself at your convenience.

I agree with this for the most part. Then again, a sane and respectable adult should have accepted her mother's quirk (inability to discuss emotionally serious matters, which wasn't really that troubling) after dealing with it her entire life, especially after what she had done to her. If she had any good intentions at all, she would have tried to apologize and initiate a discussion about their discrepancy. She was only doing herself a disservice by constantly seeing her mother a an enemy.
Yes, Mildred was responsible for the kind of monster Veda had become, but not more than Veda herself. I think it's 30% nurture and 70% nature. Many people with way worse parents turn out OK or not as malicious as Veda.

[–] Squeeth2 8 years ago

Veda and her mum have watched too many Joan Crawford movies.

Marlon, Claudia & Dimby the cats 1989-2010. Clio the cat, July 1997 - 1 May 2016.

[–] Jes' Sayin' (5957) 7 years ago

Mildred was very good at business, not very good at interpersonal relationships.

She repeatedly chose wrong guys, and even slept with them outside marriage. When it came to kids, she spoiled them and treated them inconsistently.

What caused Veda to be the way she was? *spoilers*

What caused Veda to be the way she was? spoilers