MovieChat Forums > Lebanon (2009) Discussion > 'Zionism' and 'Idealism' are mutually in...

'Zionism' and 'Idealism' are mutually incompatible.

posted 13 years ago by adam_jondo
10 replies | jump to latest

Apparently the Director claims that "...victory was won in Six-Day War, when people were Zionist and idealist."*

Clearly he is confused.

Surely true "Idealism" aspires to the universal benefit of ALL people rather than the selfish advantage of any SUB-SET of humanity at the expense of any other Sub-Set (as does "Zionism").

EXAMPLE: The principle of "Fundamental Human Rights" is inherently Idealistic because it is rooted in a utilitarian affirmation of universal equality and inclusivity.

WHEREAS: Most members of Al-Qaida, the Nazis, the KKK, etc... doubtless FEEL motivated by the sensation of "idealistic" fervour - but no way are they genuine "Idealists" because their emotion is warped by a partisan and dishonest belief system.

In reality these extremists are in denial of their own darker feelings of fear, vulnerability, impotence and shame (often arising from recent historical trauma) and have unconsciously contrived twisted ideologies which enable them to disown responsibility for their own "unpleasant" feelings about themselves and instead project or displace them onto other convenient scapegoats.

These warped belief systems are most successful when incorporating a complex web of truths and HALF-TRUTHS (rather than transparant lies) and thereby provide the most credible platform for sustainable self deception.

Hence Nazism was rooted in the German peoples unconscious denial of their feelings of impotence and shame at their WW1 defeat. They then transmuted these emotions into a more palatable feeling of rightous indignation, and rationalised this new more flattering self image by fusing it with the GENUINE indignation they were RIGHTLY entiltled to feel at the punatative injustices the allies inflicted upon them via the Treaty of Versaille which ended WW1.

And in the catastrophic coda to this monumental self deception the Jewish people and other minorities were then selected as convenient scapegoats onto whome the Nazi's could project and disown their own unconsious self loathing.

How appalling and depressing (yet tragically understandable) to watch todays Zionists singularly failing to look themselves square in the mirror, learn the lessons of history, and break this cycle of abuse.

Truly the oppressed have become the oppressors and Zionisism shames the memory of those murdered in the holocaust. They deserve a better epitaph.

Thank god for the millions on non-Zionist Jews (both inside and outside Israel)who seek genuine progress and have the courage to shoulder the truth of the unpallatable vulnerabilies of the human condition (to which we are ALL heir), instead of retreating into the childish comfort of extremeism.

* Thanks to IMDB Member F2039 for providing that translation from:
http://www.salom.com.tr/news/detail/15470-Lubnan-filminin-Israilli-yonetmeni-SAMUEL-MAOZ-Filmi-Venedik-icin-degil.aspx]

If only you could see what I have seen through your eyes.

[–] slayintheilluminati 13 years ago

zionism is the evil of the world ask any christian, arab and even any judaist jew they all tell you the same
the zionist jew wing doesnt have a God no rules onlt worshipping evil and dark satanic rituals

death to zionism!!!

[–] adam_jondo 13 years ago

Dear slayintheilluminati,

Your comments about Zionists "...worshipping evil and dark satanic rituals..." are just puerile paranoid *beep*

If you can't add something constructive (pro or anti)to the debate then don't bother posting at all.

Failing which, stay off my team.

You and I are singing from TOTALLY different song sheets.

If only you could see what I have seen through your eyes.

[–] TemporaryOne-1 13 years ago

Regardless of the director's personal opinions about Zionism and Israel, the end result is - whether or not he intended it - a film that scathingly indicts the Israeli war in Lebanon.

How appalling and depressing (yet tragically understandable) to watch todays Zionists singularly failing to look themselves square in the mirror, learn the lessons of history, and break this cycle of abuse.

But the director does that - the director looked himself in the mirror, learned the lessons of history, and made this film to raise an alarm call against the cycle of abuse perpetuated by the government and military of Israel.

He may declare himself to be a pro-war pro-Israel Zionist, but this film is the antithesis of that viewpoint. Lebanon is result of the director plunging into the mirror to confront his demons and the "iniquity" of Israel's actions.

He may be pro-war, pro-Israel, and pro-Zionism, and this film represents his plea to the state of Israel and Israelis to stop the cycle of destruction.

You can definitely be pro-Israel and pro-Zionism and pro-war yet also be ashamed of, and a severe critic of, Israeli policies that bring about senseless destruction and perpetuate the cycle of violence.

[–] Gonzo_Knight 13 years ago

People using the word 'Zionism' inject their own perverted and biased meanings into it. It has the same meaning as patriotism. Absolutely the same.

People who deny it are hateful bigots.

It is also completely universal. There is not a group of people in the entire world who would not fight for their right to set up their own state, especially in the place they originally ruled.

And is actually entirely justified.

[–] nagmashdriver 8 years ago

Stick to the politics as it applies to the MOVIE and not to your warped Leftist view of the world.

PS: So sorry to hear that you hate Israel and Jews so much, your life must be very difficult, indeed.

[–] lansdownehouse 8 years ago

So many 'reinterpretations' of the truth! Zionism is NOT synonymous with patriotism. Zionism is (literally) "a nationalist political movement to establish a jewish homeland in Palestine". To be patriotic, one firstly needs to actually HAVE a homeland, of one's own, not stolen from its indigenous inhabitants. Stolen territory doesn't count.

Using this definition, Zionism is a racist and revisionist movement, in claiming that a non-indigenous race has a supreme right to land taking precedence over the indigenous population.

In regard to Zionism being evil by virtue of satanic ritual; I must take exception. Zionism may be 'wrong' , it may be 'racist', or even 'immoral', but evil in a religious context? Only perhaps to the erroneous notion that Palestine is some sort of 'promised land' that an anonymous deity (s/he of the mussies & christ-cultists too, let us remember) told them was theirs for the taking.

This is the 'revisionist' part of the equation. For a bunch of expatriates to claim some god-given right to another races' homeland is beyond the pale. Pardon my cynicism, but a 2500 year old work of fiction doesn't give modern day land-rights claims any form of credence whatsoever.

I would contend that by its very nature ALL religion has occult origins. God can be whomsoever we want her to be. S/he was made by man, in our own image, not the other way around, which is the god/dess of the jews allows their claimed land rights to take precedence over thousands of years of occupation by indigenous inhabitants. A faith based upon lies, fables & fairy tales therefore lacks legitimacy and authority, which makes the lies of all the priests, pharisees, mullahs and caliphs the world over claiming some tenuous element of religious 'authority' nothing but the cynical rantings of any other dictator. Messianic claptrap.

Theocracy in this context is no different to any other form of totalitarianism.

[–] Markunator 8 years ago

Jews have every right to be in Israel/Palestine, but so do the Palestinians. It has been proven that Jews are indigenous to the Levant. Zionism isn't based on religion, it's based on the fact that Jews have a proven historical connection to that land. It's not my intent to try to excuse the expulsion, racism or killing of the Palestinians, but rather to combat the misconception that Jews don't belong there. There is no reason why the two peoples can't live as equals, side-by-side in that land.

Give me the ball.
- Baseball Bat Man, The Raid 2

[–] adam_jondo 8 years ago

It has been proven that Jews are indigenous to the Levant. Zionism isn't based on religion, it's based on the fact that Jews have a proven historical connection to that land.

History is littered with lists of people who can claimn indigenous historical "connection" to a piece of real estate that they no longer have any legitimate claim to under international law.

In England alone - Celts, Angles, and Saxons could all claim proven historical connections to the land but no-one would advocate that as a sane platform for them to RE-OCCUPY IT BY FORCE and displace the current indegenous population.

And their claims would only be circa 1000 years old. The Zionist claim rationalizes an equivalent land grab based on prior occupancies dating back over TWO MILLENIA.

The world cannot adjudicate international relations on such legally and morally bankrupt statutes of limitation - and nor should it.

Nor can it (or should it) adjucicate them based on claims of Divine Right or God Given Approval. If God really does favor some world citizens over others then :

A) Guess God's a partisan *beep* - in contradiction to the core precept of all benign spiritual and humanist creeds that ALL HUMAN SOULS (metaphorical or literal) ARE EQUAL.

B) God is free to materialize in the UN any time and I'm sure He/She/It will have our undivided attention and co-operation.

Pending which it seems best to assume that it's God and humaities good work to pursue cogent, ubiquitous, utilatarian international statutes that treat ALL PEOPLE AS EQUAL regardless of race, creed, color and protects their rights and property accordingly.

So if Zionism has a claim to forced Palestinian occupation and expansion (in flagrant breach of 50+ years of UN legal objection and god knows how many human rights violations) then I'm all ears - but it had better be a damn powerful arguement which has zero reliance on predicates A or B (above) nor the highly emotive (but morally fatuous) subtext that when a particular demograph of humanity (be they Jew, Muslim, Christian, Black, White, Yellow, British, German, Indian, etc..) is demonized and persecuted another demograph of massive monsters (eg: The Nazis) it somehow gives the oppressed demograph carte blanche to go off and behave like mini-monsters to others.

If anything quite the opposite . The lesson of the holocaust (that homo sapiens can all too easily desensitize ourselves to the equal sancity of all human life and start objectifying, demonizing, and abusing others as scapegoats for own neurosis and/or self gain) speaks 100% against the trajectory of Zionism.

UNLESS of course you embrace the core lesson of the holocaust to be that all humans are by our nature just irredeemably violent, greedy, unempathic, tribal monstrosities in which case tooling up for war and screwing the competition (ie: everyone) whenever possible is the indeed the obvious, logical (and soul destroying) way to go.

No question it is possible that human nature is that irredeemably pitch black - but if so then :

1) This must include the Zionist's themselves - and therefore, according to their own cynical logic, all appeals to "justice" are just veiled opportunism. There is no existential justice - just the law that "might is right".

2) As an inherently self serving, power hungry, and unempathic animals why would I or anyone else be motivated to give a damn about the Zionist competition in the first place?

Postscript : Please note that:

1) I have 100% sympathy and support for the unimaginable horror and injustice that so many (foremost the jews) suffered under the nazi holocaust and in principle fully support the concept of a jewish state/sanctuary - not on any legal grounds but on grounds of simple consideration and empathy
for the enduring depth of their trauma.

2) It is/was totally within the wit of the international community to create and support a secure and peaceful jewish homeland as a matter of common decency. My concern is that (as Marshal predicted to Truman) despite an understandable mythological homing instinct the land of Israel may well be the least fit for purpose choice of real estate. Its small, distant from its allies, surrounded and heavily outnumbered by other tribes which it has subsequently displaced and abused in contradiction to international (and moral) law.

3) Apologize in advance if the parralel between Nazi's (as "Major Monsters") and Zionists (as resultant "Minor Monsters") causes offence and can superficially understand why it could be taken that way. But on reflection it is a salient and solvent parralel. The ironic psychology of the abused evolving into an abuser is already well documented and understood. The core dynamic of demonization and abuse is the same causal TYPE - but no question the holocaust was far, far, greater atrocity in terms of DEPTH, SCALE and malicious FORESIGHT.

If only you could see what I have seen with your eyes.

[–] Markunator 8 years ago

In England alone - Celts, Angles, and Saxons could all claim proven historical connections to the land but no-one would advocate that as a sane platform for them to RE-OCCUPY IT BY FORCE and displace the current indigenous population.

Umm, yeah... There is only one major flaw in that comparison: the Celts, Angles and Saxons are the current indigenous population of England!

So if Zionism has a claim to forced Palestinian occupation and expansion (in flagrant breach of 50+ years of UN legal objection and god knows how many human rights violations) then I'm all ears - but it had better be a damn powerful arguement which has zero reliance on predicates A or B (above) nor the highly emotive (but morally fatuous) subtext that when a particular demograph of humanity (be they Jew, Muslim, Christian, Black, White, Yellow, British, German, Indian, etc..) is demonized and persecuted another demograph of massive monsters (eg: The Nazis) it somehow gives the oppressed demograph carte blanche to go off and behave like mini-monsters to others.

You've misunderstood me. I've never said that the Nakba was a good thing, or even a justifiable thing. I actually don't agree with Zionism at all.

UNLESS of course you embrace the core lesson of the holocaust to be that all humans are by our nature just irredeemably violent, greedy, unempathic, tribal monstrosities in which case tooling up for war and screwing the competition (ie: everyone) whenever possible is the indeed the obvious, logical (and soul destroying) way to go.

No question it is possible that human nature is that irredeemably pitch black

That is pretty much exactly what I think, except that I wouldn't say "all humans", but rather "humanity as a whole".

Give me the ball.
- Baseball Bat Man, The Raid 2

[–] adam_jondo 8 years ago

Appreciate the considered response and that we're both broadly of one accord.

My only caveat being..

Umm, yeah... There is only one major flaw in that comparison: the Celts, Angles and Saxons are the current indigenous population of England!

Could be wrong but think the Angles and Saxons displaced the Celts and were in turn subjugated by the Norman invasion and therefore my parralel is on point.

If only you could see what I have seen with your eyes.