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to the Women who are saying The Lorax is sexist


I read a statement where women complained when the Lorax says "that's a woman" and found it offensive and said that "Sadly, for women things haven't changed a lot in the past 40 years"

Are you SERIOUS with this statement, I mean really??

I'm tired of women complaining over every little thing a MALE says that they might find offensive and they ignore everything else.

This day and age it's a FEMALE-PRIVILEGE society whereas everything is easier for females than it is for males. There are hundreds of examples to this yet women, of course, don't complain about this. For Example:

In movies/TV shows, etc women are allowed to hit men if they cheat on them, etc. and no one complains. There are loads of movies where the girl kicks the guy out of his own house and he leaves.

Society says MEN should always pay on dates to be a gentleman (with most women's argument is that if we pay than he'll expect us to always pay, oh kind of like what women are doing right?) Women like to say men should pay because it’s what being a man is. Yet you can’t tell a woman what a being a lady is.

Men’s paycheck, should you get a divorce, does not belong to him. If she doesn't work, men have to support her a$$. This is unconstitutional against the equality act (women don’t pay alimony in almost all cases)

The men’s children, should they get a divorce, do not belong to him. If mom drops them off at the babysitter's house, try to pick up your kids without mom's verbal consent to the sitter.

Your half of the fetus, should you get a woman pregnant, does not belong to you. If she wants to abort, it's not your call. Yet if she wants to keep it, you have no choice but to pay child support.

Turn on any news and you’ll see either all female anchors, or females and males but almost never all-males.

This is a little joke that the Lorax miss saw her as a guy, so stop complaining…there are other movies where it belittles men and makes fun of them, most movies the men are the but of the jokes, even commercials and no one is allowed to complain right? I hope a men’s movement happens to change things. The man are always fat and their wife’s are always the smarter ones in TV shows, etc and what does that tell little girls and boys?

In The Lorax the boy goes out of his way to find a tree for the girl he likes because he thinks that’s the only way to get her, I find that offensive (plus in the book the boy didn’t do this for a girl).

I’m not saying everything is fair for women but we always hear their argument and never the men’s side because society tells men they can’t complain. It even teaches boys that to be happy in life, you first have to make the girl happy (why, it’s ridiculous)

These are just some examples of the double standards. But to go with this argument over this little joke in the movie I'll give you one that happened on a TV show and no one complained because it was directed towards men:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrvDhSB7GHk&feature=related

(it's the case where the wife cut off her husband’s penis off, and when talked about on this all-female show, they turned it into a joke even stating that it was good what she did, that every woman wants to do this....if an all-male show laughed about a man mutilating his wife's vagina, they would be fired)

Anyway, for those women who are complaining I wrote this because you said nothing has changed in the last 40years for women and I find that a joke. Are you serious? We're living in a society which tells girls that nothing is expected of them yet they can expect things from men. That men have to cater to their needs and if they don't, then just dump them and take everything they got. On Valentine's Day every year I get offended when, on almost every channel, they tell men that they better do something nice for their girl or their girl should dump him, girls are even allowed to say "he better do something nice for me or else"...now imagine men saying that...
I could go on and on but I’m pretty sure you get my point and I’m sure you agree.

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I think you are referring to third wave feminism where women think being as overtly sexual as possible (e. g. Girls Gone Wild) is empowering themselves. It's not. Frankly, I think everyone is confused.

I'm 45. Much has changed for women in my lifetime. Yet, many attitudes remain the same.

I haven't seen the film, only the clip. It's not that she didn't look like a "pretty" woman. She looked like a character with that hair. A Viking maybe. Perhaps that's what he meant.

Maybe I'll post a different opinion after I see the entire film.



- Sally

The perfect human being is uninteresting. - Joseph Campbell

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The Lorax is one of Dr. Seuss’ explicitly rhetorical books, one that he himself classified as "propaganda." It is a classic cautionary fable structured around a flashback narrated by the villain, the capitalist Once-ler, to a nameless young boy who has come to the Once-ler’s dilapidated Lerkim to hear the tale. The story is set in a dark, murky, post apocalyptic landscape caused by the Once-ler’s wholesale exploitation of the ecosystem, which was supported in a former time by Truffula trees. As the faceless Once-ler tells his tale through a "snergelly hose," we flash back to the old days, when the land was a bright paradise of multicolored Truffula trees and happy Swomee Swans, Bar-ba-loots, and Humming-Fish. The Once-ler arrives in a covered wagon reminiscent of those during the American frontier days. Like a pioneer, he is out to better his life, but he is not the homesteading pioneer as we might expect; he is more the 49er, and he strikes it rich when he discovers the profitability of the first Truffula tree, whose tuft he knits into a Thneed. With what might be termed classic Yankee ingenuity, the Once-ler devises ways of processing more and more Truffula trees at a steadily increasing pace, "biggering and biggering" his manufacturing operation until he has turned the formerly Edenic paradise into a landscape of industrial blight with polluted water, polluted air, and a sunless panorama of Truffula stumps.

All of the Lorax’s interventions are for naught, and when the last tree falls, he is mysteriously "lifted away" into a hole in the dark clouds. And as the young boy discovers, it is only after it is too late that the Once-ler learns his lesson. At the end of the tale, the Once-ler drops down a single remaining Truffula seed, the seed of hope at the bottom of the capitalist Pandora’s box.

The rhetoric of the story’s surface requires no explication -- its moral is explicit and self-contained. So much so, in fact, that some readers respond to the motif of the tree cutting and forget that that particular form of exploitation is part of the underlying theme, which Seuss characterized as "antipollution and antigreed," not merely anti-logging.

But there’s something special about The Lorax’s rhetoric. With the figure of the "smallish" and strangely ineffectual, paternal Lorax, Seuss evokes a powerful sense of pathos, nostalgia, and guilt -- which is probably why proponents of the timber industry have tried to ban the book in at least three states. According to Gary Ball, in an article in the newsletter available on the Mendocino Environmental Center's Web site, some pro-logging and anti-environmental groups like those associated with the deceptively named Wise Use Movement (WUM) "have even gone to the extreme of creating a community uproar in order to ban . . . The Lorax, from elementary schools' reading lists. Led by the owners of Baily's, the logger equipment merchants . . . WUM adherents packed a number of heated school board meetings resulting in The Lorax being removed from the mandatory reading list in public schools."

In 1991, 20 years after its publication, the hardwood industry responded to The Lorax in kind with a pro-logging book called Truax, in which the hero is a friendly and even-tempered lumber man who explains the virtues of logging to a hysterical figure called the Guardbark. The Guardbark is meant not only to represent the Lorax, but what the timber industry considers the irrational rhetoric of environmentalism in general. He's depicted as a bucktoothed cross between the Green Man and the Jolly Green Giant, and since he is none-too-intelligent, he is easily swayed by the calm Truax's pro-logging lecture. Though it does not qualify as what folklorists term "fakelore," and is clearly a response to what the industry believes a threat, the logic behind Truax is reminiscent of what happened in the mid-1900s when W. B. Laughead appropriated and adapted some logging lore to promote the Red River Lumber Company of Minnesota. We all know the result: those fabricated tall tales about Paul Bunyan and Babe the Blue Ox.

It’s probably clear from what I’ve discussed above why The Lorax would evoke a strong response from the timber industry, but there is far more going on in the book than meets the casually analytic eye. There’s something weirdly familiar about The Lorax, something especially odd, simultaneously cathartic and irking about the dramatic arc of the story. It sticks with readers at many different levels in the same way that a good parable sticks with us and survives repeated reflection as we become progressively older and (we hope) wiser.

2. Theodor Seuss Geisel

Before he was Dr. Seuss, Theodor Seuss Geisel was a failed novelist. He was an English major, and he studied at Oxford (one of his professors was the eminent Emile Logouis, a specialist on the work of Jonathan Swift, author of works like "A Modest Proposal" and Gulliver's Travels). He studied the psychology of advertising, and in his Botany and Zoology classes he amused himself by manipulating the Latin names for plants and animals. Seuss admitted that his study of Latin, particularly the insights it provided into the etymology and construction of words, was a great influence on his writing.

In the mid-1920s, Seuss lived for a time in Paris, where the likes of Hemingway, Joyce, and Stein -- writers who would forever change the face of literature with their innovations -- were establishing themselves. Seuss’s later writing uses many of the same literary techniques.

Before World War II, Seuss had already earned a name for himself with the wildly successful advertising campaign for the insecticide called "Flit," making the phrase "Quick, Henry, the Flit!" part of popular culture. Seuss drew liberal political cartoons during World War II; he also made documentaries and propaganda films under Frank Capra while he served in the Signal Corps.

In later interviews, Seuss was always quite honest about his rhetorical intentions. He referred directly to the influence of writers like Belloc, Swift, and Voltaire, and did not hesitate to refer to his own radical and revolutionary ideas. "I’m subversive as hell!" he once declared. He said of his Cat in the Hat: "It’s revolutionary in that it goes as far as Kerensky and then stops. It doesn’t go quite as far as Lenin." Seuss was a writer fully aware of his political and rhetorical intentions (much like George Orwell, whose Animal Farm is often read in elementary schools), and he crafted his literary tools to most effectively deliver his charged messages.

The verse style for which Seuss's work is famous is called anapestic tetrameter. Seuss folklore explains his fascination with this meter as the influence of the rhythm of the diesel engine in the ship he took home from Europe, but he also singled out Johann Wolfgang von Goethe as a literary influence. Goethe's "The Erl-King" (narrated from the point of view of a child who is being kidnapped by the King of Elves) is written in anapestic tetrameter. There are English writers who also used this meter, one of the most memorable being Lord Byron, who wrote "The Destruction of Sennacherib." The best-known example of anapestic tetrameter in American culture is, of course, "The Night Before Christmas" (which we cannot help but associate with the Grinch these days).

Goethe is known for saying that there is a genius in every child and a child in every genius. Seuss, as we know, had decided to "be a child" all his life and explained his own creativity by describing it as the "insane logic" of a child. Goethe is an interesting connection for Seuss because of this similar attitude toward childhood consciousness, but this link is especially relevant to my reading because Goethe's most renowned work happens to be Faust, whose protagonist is an Alchemist.

3. Anagram Alchemy

Recently, while I was pursuing my own suspicions about the hidden religious meaning of "I AM SAM / SAM I AM" in Green Eggs and Ham, I ran across an essay by Darren McGovern called "Green Eggs and So’Ham: A Qabalistic Interpretation of Dr. Seuss’ Green Eggs and Ham." McGovern’s essay is -- almost by necessity -- rather tongue-in-cheek, especially toward its conclusion where his reading takes on the frenetic quality of a rant. But he begins by introducing a serious consideration, which happens to be an authentic part of some spiritual traditions: "Unlocking the (imaginary?) hidden meanings within nonsense can automatically set one to thinking of the mysteries. This, done with discipline, can lead to deep contemplation of Holy things and God Himself and that is the true path to illumination." Referring to the methodologies of the Qabalah [Kabbalah] and the Hermetic tradition, McGovern goes on to say that "By deciphering the meaning between the lines, the roots of words, the correspondence on the Tree of Life, and connections to myths, we can invoke the truth that lies hidden. . . . Distilling the information to extract the ‘gold’ from the original matter is an alchemical transformation operation."

McGovern's claim is not as outrageous as it first seems, and his essay just scratches the surface of the analytic potential that a Hermetic/Kabbalistic reading of Dr. Seuss offers. In fact, it is precisely this approach that reveals the true nature of Seuss's genius and explains why works like The Lorax are so profoundly resonant with his readers.

What Seuss uses is a complex interweaving of symbolism and anagrams, relying both on the appearance of the text and its sound, to carry a range of potential meanings that all serve to amplify the overarching theme of the work. This is generally true of Green Eggs and Ham and many other Seuss works, but applied with true genius in The Lorax.

Let me begin with a reading that will seem, at first, to be outrageous, and then show how it is a very rational reading in keeping with both the rhetoric of The Lorax as a fable and the underlying alchemical and Kabbalistic techniques used by Dr. Seuss. (If you doubt the degree to which he used anagrams, keep in mind that he also wrote under the identity of "Theo LeSeig," which is a condensation and rearrangement of "Theodor Geisel.")

Everyone who has read the book recalls the declaration: "I am the Lorax. I speak for the trees." Since he is the guardian of the trees and the critic of the Once-ler, whose transgression is to chop them all down, it is not accidental that the Lorax’s name sounds vaguely like "lower axe" in English. This is where most scholarly readers stop their analysis because it appears to be a fully adequate explication in keeping with underlying moral of the story. But Dr. Seuss’s construction of names is highly sophisticated if we bother to look more deeply. The sound value of "Lorax" is a red herring that allows adult readers to resonate with deeper underlying messages within the story once they have uncovered one of its upper layers. To do justice to Dr. Seuss, we must look at the name letter-by-letter.

L O R A X is an anagram that breaks down into three symbolic clusters: AO, RX, and L. AO represents Alpha and Omega (O -- Omnicron -- here is a substitute for W -- Omega -- in keeping with the transformation of the Greek to Roman alphabets). These two letters, as we know, symbolize Christ, who said, "I am the Alpha and the Omega." RX (as I discuss in my column on the Caduceus), is usually taken to mean "prescription" as in the pharmacist’s symbol, but it actually comes from another transformation of Greek to Roman alphabets; the R and X represent Rho and Chi, which in the Greek alphabet are P and X. Chi and Rho are the first two letters in Christos, or Christ. The X written over the P is the typical Chiro recognized as the symbol for Christ.

A look at Nigel Pennick’s Magical Alphabets shows how the L in LORAX is not an extra letter (or an article), but rather another condensation of the Christ symbol in conjunction with the theme of protecting trees. The Roman L is equivalent to the Greek Lambda, which, Pennick notes, "is connected with plant growth and the mathematical progressions associated with the figure in classical geometry, upon whose principles organic growth proceeds. It is linked mystically with the geometric ratio known as the Golden Section. As the 11th letter of the Greek alphabet, Lambda represents the ascent to a higher level." The Lorax, of course, is the protector of the trees, whose growth would be associated with the Golden Section (also known as the Golden Mean); when all the Truffula trees are gone, the Lorax is "lifted away," ascending to some mysterious higher place.

The Roman L and Greek Lambda are equivalent to the Hebrew Lamed, and Pennick's entry for that letter is also quite interesting: "Lamed is the directed energy that one requires to initiate any action, and the sacrifices that one must inevitably incur in the process. The esoteric significance of Lamed is thus 'sacrifice.'" This is not only in keeping with all of the Christ associations I've pointed out above, since Christ is also the sacrificial Lamb(da) of God -- it also explains the page on which the Lorax first appears, pulling himself out of the first Truffula stump in a burst of multicolored energy as an axe falls away to the ground.

The word TRUFFULA also breaks down into several phonetic anagrams of which "True Alpha" (TRU ALFFU, the U sound being like the neutral schwa sound like the E in the ER ending) and "fulla fruit" (FULA FRUT, i.e., "full of fruit") are the most relevant. Since it is literally the Tree of Life in the story (Seuss capitalizes the T in Tree), the fact that the Truffula Tree contains seeds of its own destruction, the "fatal fur" (FATUL FUR) of its tufts and the "future fall" (FUTUR FAL) of the Truffula paradise is especially ironic.

The three kinds of animals who depend on the Truffula Trees seem, at first, to bear cute, nonsensical names, but all of them are laden with meaning both through symbolism and anagramming. Swomee Swan rearranges into the phrase, "As men we sow" (a contrast to the Once-ler’s greedy reaping of the trees). It also becomes "Woe’s-me Swan," suggesting the lamentation of the swans’ departure; this anagram is especially poignant coupled with the symbolic meaning of the swan, whose dying lament (the source of the term "swan song") was associated with Christ’s dying breath on the cross.

The Humming-Fish are somewhat easier to figure out because one need only condense the "Humming" into "humin’" ("human") to see that they are also a Christ symbol. Christ was a man associated with the symbol of the fish, thus a "human fish."

Finally, the Brown Bar-ba-loots are also linked both to the anti-logging rhetoric, by anagramming into the phrase, "Ban blows to arbor," and to the crucifixion narrative: "Barab’s loot." Barabas the thief was let go by popular vote when Christ was condemned to the cross. The prefix "barba" also means "bearded," linking the Lorax and Christ through their appearance, not only their ascension, and "barb" suggests the crown of thorns.

The Once-ler’s name, the weird "Snuvv," the "Lerkim," and the "snergelly hose" all resonate with the same Alchemical and Kabbalistic logic. A full explication of The Lorax would take its own book, so let it suffice for this essay to point out that the "Thneed," which is what the Once-ler makes out of the Truffula Trees, is "The End."

So "What was the Lorax? And why was it there?" The answer is that despite his disavowal of interest in any particular organized religion, Dr. Seuss drew on the deep structures of esoteric Christianity, Judaism, and Islam to present us with a parable about The Fall and the potential of redemption. We need only perceive more carefully with the "insane logic" of children and mystics. The last Truffula seed is the Philosopher’s Stone, which has the potential to transform the crass gold of greed into the true gold of enlightenment. From the Good Dr. Seuss, it is not an especially expensive prescription, or, for that matter, a hard pill to swallow.



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That was a very interesting read. I feel somewhat enlightened. Thank you.

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great read mean! thumbs up to you, and respect knuckle bump.

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Awesome work. Very enlightening and dare I say, not the intelligent read one expects to find in these troll-filled message boards!

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////…there are other movies where it belittles men and makes fun of them//////

Yeah, like THIS one. Have you forgotten the line when the Once-ler says to the boy...."the first time a guy does something stupid, it's because he's a guy" That's a lot more sexist than...."That's a woman?"

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"Stop your complaining"

I find it funny that you said this as I'm stated in my post that women ALWAYS complain if a guy says something against them, yet men aren't allowed to complain. It's ironic.

To your statement that a woman makes less money than a man in the same job...that isn't true women say that because it was true years ago but this day and age it's proven that woman make the same if not more than a man, and more men are out of jobs these days than women (like the example I gave about looking at and news broadcast)

And you said you could name a hundred things that is against women...my point is that everyone knows all those because that's all we hear, we never hear how soicety treats men...it's like men are supposed to bow down to women, to do everything for them and not to expect nothing in return and women are allowed in society to demand men do such things.

Change will come and to the women who don't like men complaining and asking for equal rights...beginning of change is hard yet in time you'll get used to it.

I'm not saying men should be higher than women all I'm saying is that the feminist movement was about EQUALITY and that's how it should be.

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I think you're over-reacting, as some women (who are these women???) obviously are by over-reacting to that line in the movie. Clearly, sexism still exists. Just as clearly, blowing a situation like this out of proportion is not going to help - whether you're on the side of the crazy feminists or not. Just leave the micro-portion of society alone and don't give them any attention. If you ignore the issue, it'll die much more effectively than if you try to fight with crazies.


"Well!!! Since when did you become the physical type?"

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It's not a micro-portion. The majority of women are the way he describes. Of course not all are, and some see it the way he does, but most of us are raised to be like that and it's unfair. And since when has "ignore it and it will get better" ever worked? Ignoring it DOESN'T make it better. Standing up and saying something, even when most people won't agree with you, is what works. That's what sets things in motion.

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I could list a hundred things that society has against women as well. It's easy. For example, guys still get paid more for doing the exact same job.
Implying it's a matter of discrimination, which it isn't.


"I've been living on toxic waste for years, and I'm fine. Just ask my other heads!"

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Because of that kind of woman, I can't take feminism seriously.

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Oh boy, the Men's Rights Movement rears its ugly head on a board about a kid's movie.

About that scene, personally, I had no problem with it. But lets look at it with the genders reversed, and a female said about a man, "That's a man?" Questioning a man's gender would not be cool.

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hey Ruby either u dont get what im saying or u havent read the orginal post...
i responed to the comments on IMDB regarding women complaining about that scene from this kids movie and other movies, I got tired of women complain over every little thing in society when someone 'offends' them and it's talked about on the news and with everyone. Whereas when men complain (if they complain at all) they get no media attention, nothing. I don't care about this scene or any scene in movies since I dont take them too seriously I'm just tired of women always complaining when something doesn't go their way.

And to your example that if a female said "that's a man", no men wouldn't complain, and if they did, no one would listen.

There are hundreds of example of this, a couple of which I wrote in my post.

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Both genders bitch a lot. As for what the media reports, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

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I haven't seen the movie but I'm pretty sure there is nothing sexist in it. And things have improved drastically for women. That being said, the world is by no means FEMALE-PRIVILEGE. That is a pretty ignorant statement because our opinions are still regarded as less important a lot of the time and we have a much harder time with getting people to take us seriously. Sexism is just more subtle nowadays.

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There isn't anything sexist in this movie.

Sexism today has gone to the internet where misogynists can be anonymous.

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I never said the movie was sexist, I merely responded to what other people have said in the scene where the Lorax said "is that a woman' and they said it's sexist and I don't think it is.

As for the FEMALE-PRIVILEDGE: how is that an ignorant statement. Soeone has stated that in society it's like woman is first is like the general rule, men have to pay on dates, men propose, men lose the kids when he gets divorced, etc, etc. (Perfect example is what I written in the orginal post)In regards to these facts, I would agree that it's a Female-Priviledge society.

I'm just tired of the complaints that woemn always attribute towards men, but when men complain they make it seem like we are doing it because we are sexist.

And I totally disagreed when u say that woman's opinions are less important in society, if they were, why is it that when a woman is offended by a movie, talk show host, or whatever that a man says, it'll get huge media attention whereas if a man is offended ,etc. no one cares i.e. no media attention.

Perfect example, if you do a little reseasrch, advertisements for major companies have even admitted that they make advertisements that most all of the time make men the stupid ones, men are the but of the jokes because they don't want to offend women.

WHy is it that women can demand that men do things for them and this point in time society accepts it. Like Valentine's Day, watch any TV show in the US and it has the message that the men better step up and do something for their woman, and woman demand "he better do this and that", yet if a man demands anything from a woman there is this big backlash from women.

Anyway, like I said in my orginal post, I'm tired of hearing women complaining so I decided to complain for the men's point of view.

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How is this a, "female priviledge" society when women make up at least 50% of the adult population yet only 10% of congress? 100% of our presidents have been men. More than 85% of CEO's are male.

About dating, if you want to get a woman, expect to jump through some hoops. We women are genetically programmed to make men jump through hoops because if you'll do it for us, you'll do it for the offspring.

You're bothered by men acting stupid in commercials? How about movies? I take it you won't be seeing The Three Stooges because it would be offensive to you? Tell me, is it women who are responsible for all those men in commercials being portrayed as stupid?

Now you're attacking Valentines Day? Really?

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He's right! Women always get their way in legal battles they rarely pay alimony. When a guy gets hit by a girl they laugh. When a guy hits a girl we go to jail. When I was in high school a mean girl started a fight with me she punched me eight times in the face everybody was laughing until my one swing broke her nose and knocked her out. It was the last and only time I hit a girl. She barely was punished I had a ten day suspension and criminal charges (they were dropped). I'll admit we still have partial control but women can get away with murder and that is where the unfairness comes to play. Not only that but if a guy wants an abortion and the girl keeps it, he should not have to pay child support, but that would be impossible to implement. Every deadbeat would say they wanted one. My old job was ruled by women and the only people being promoted were women by women.

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Brother, I agree with you wholeheartedly. And I'm saying this as a woman; the expectations we set on men is totally unfair. And there are injustices towards women too, of course. But the solution isn't to belittle men. Feminism was supposed to be about equality, right? We're not totally equal yet, but it's not just a case of men having an advantage over women, it goes the other way in some cases.

Also, I had heard of that talk show bullsh*t but hadn't seen it before now. There goes my faith in humanity. Can you imagine a room full of men laughing about a man mutilating his wife over a divorce? Society would never let that slide. But no, it's ok, it was just a penis.

Jesus tap-dancing Christ...

As for the joke in the movie, it was a joke. Honestly, people get offended over the smallest little things these days. I blame Tumblr, that's where all the biggest crybabies are.

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I used to want you dead but
Now I only want you gone.

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Thank you that's my point, I'm glad there are some women out there who get and agree with what I'm saying.

It should be equality, and that's what the feminist movement was about.

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I think it's a little OTT to complain about that one line. It's not particularly funny, but it's not something that I as a woman would cry foul over.

HOWEVER...I have much more of an issue with the whole storyline with Ted and Audrey. First of all, Audrey loves trees, but she's a passive girl who needs a man to save the trees for her. And it totally undermines the poignancy of the boy getting the truffula seed...he goes after it because he thinks it might get him some play, not because he actually gives a s**t about the environment. It's just not the best message.

It would have made a lot more sense for the girl to just go see the Once-ler, if she cares about trees that much. The film would have had a lot more urgency if that was the case.

"I would be kind to my rabbit subjects...at first."

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He does go after the seed to impress Audrey, but in the end he learns how important the trees really are. BTW, I love that Audrey was such a nice girl, and wasn't mean to Ted just because he's younger. Too often teen girls are portrayed as mean.

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audonamission- I think you miss the whole point, I see you are saying how come the girl needed the boy to go find the tree....Like it was stated before, in the Dr. Seus's book the boy did it on his own, it had nothing to do with a girl, in the book he went to find the Once'ler and it had nothing to do with impressing a girl so to say 'why did she need a boy to do that for her' is not correct, what should be said is how come in movies the boys/men are potrayed as them doing something for a girl, its telling boys you have to do this and that for females, why are guys expected to do anything for girls and girls don't have to do anything for guys.

Anyway, it's a children's movie I only started this tread because women were complaining about that one line in the movie and I wanted to show how many more things offend men but men are expected not to complain.

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Newsflash! It's human nature for males to want to impress females. Saying that males shouldn't have to is like saying females shouldn't have to be pretty.

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It would be more accurate to say that it's human nature for males to try to impress females. And it's human nature for females to put time and money into their looks to try to impress males. Basically, both genders go to great lengths to attract mates.

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But human nature isn't men doing everything for women and women doing nothing but just looking pretty. In this society that's how it seems like, girls expect guys to pay for everything and they just put money into themselves.

Before it worked and made sense because the women stood and took care of the house/kids while the men worked all day, hence they made the money. These days woemen work, making money so there is no reason for men to pay.

Girls like to say that they are old school, that they expect the men to pay, to open the door for them, etc. etc. yet when it comes to old school for them to take care of the guy they cry sexism. They are only 'old school' when it benefits them.

Regarding the past: you can't say since all the Presidents of the US were male and since most of the CEOs (which btw isn't true, there are many CEOS females these days) are men that there is sexism toward women. That logic is ridiculous. Since the 60s, the feminist movement, women have started working like men so you can't look at the past to state about sexism today.

This is how it's sexist against men:
SOciety says that men always pay on dates, men have to pay alimony to their exs (which is not child support is giving money to your ex just because you were married to her, how in the world is that right? How come women don't pay their exs that?), in divorce cases the men almost never get the kids, in alot of states if a father finds out later on that the kid he was raising wasn't even his to begin with, that the woman lied to him he still has to pay child support until he's 18 because he's been doing it since he was born (even after he finds out the women lied), how is that right?

What is the man wants the woman to keep the baby but she still has an abortion, he has no choice. Yet if he doesn't want her to have it but she does, he has no choice but to pay child support.

There are hundreds of more cases like this. I'm not saying everything is perfect for women I'm just saying that we hear their unjustices everywhere constantly, yet men's rights isn't even discussed in the media, etc. etc.

Regarding the commercials: these advertisers are MALE and FEMALES. The males say they don't want to offend women and the women who are in charge of advertising said they want to empower women so they won't make them the but of the joke. Look it up, you think only men work in advertising? You think the men are the ones who put the skinny women on the magazines to tell women what they should look like? Look in all major magazines or fashion companies and you'll see women dominate that field so you can't blame men for that.

And saying that it's natural, human nature, for women to want to put money into themselves is *beep* The orginal fashion company that told women how they should look and what clothes to buy was Channel and she was a woman.

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Ok, so it sucks to be expected to pay on dates, or at least the first few dates. It sucks putting in all that time and money into looking pretty. Ever try walking in high heels? My point is that both genders have to put in time and effort attracting a mate, dating, and a lot about it sucks.

Yes, most CEOs are still men, as are those in the board room.

As for divorce situations, mothers usually get primary custody because they are usually the primary caregivers. Who gets what is determined case by case, and women get screwed over as well.

If you don't want to become a parent, use protection, cut down on sex. Hey, some men soak their testicles in ice water. So what if women get a choice to continue a pregnancy or not? You guys don't get to decide because it's not your body.

Why don't people take the Men's Rights Movement seriously? Because they claim to be oppressed, and most people, even men, don't buy it.

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the -why dont you wear high heels- is crap, women dont have to wear high heals or makeup, etc. WOmen do that to make themselves pretty, dont make it seem like they have too. Trust me most men prefer women who dont need makeup to look pretty or high heels, it's the choice women make, it's not forced on them. Unlike men making to pay for dates (which btw is changing but some women still try and cling to the men pay all the time).

Regarding the pregnancy, yes it's your body but it's 'our baby' ie the guy is the father. It's funny how women like to say it's your baby to guys but when it comes to divorce (and if the man fights for child custody) or abortion it's 'her' baby.
I argument is that women tend to think the guy has no say in the baby but once they have it all of a sudden she wants child support. It takes two to have a baby.

Regarding the men's movement: who isnt taking it seriously?! have you looked online how many men and WOMEN agree with this. Even Gloria Stefan, who started the FEMINIST movement agree with what men are saying about it not being equal, how women have more rights than men. And many women agree because they dont want their sons to grow up in a society like this.

Just because you are into yourself, expecting men to fall head over heals for you and do everything, doesn't mean all women agree with you.

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What's with this "women have to look pretty" bullcrap? *beep* that. And I'd never expect anyone to pay for me for anything. I have money, I'm good.

Regarding the pregnancy, yes it's your body but it's 'our baby' ie the guy is the father. It's funny how women like to say it's your baby to guys but when it comes to divorce (and if the man fights for child custody) or abortion it's 'her' baby.
I argument is that women tend to think the guy has no say in the baby but once they have it all of a sudden she wants child support. It takes two to have a baby.

I hate this, it's so complicated. I'm pro-choice, because there are too many individual factors for us to say NO ABORTIONS EVER. But I also agree that a baby belongs to both parents. But it's the women's body. But the man's baby too. But she shouldn't be forced to carry it. But he shouldn't be forced to pay for it. But the women shouldn't have to be forced to raise a human she doesn't want. But the man shouldn't be forced to raise a human he doesn't want.

That last point is why I see female-on-male rape as potentially more harmful than male-on-female rape. With the latter, assuming it wasn't particularly violent, she can move on and in any case will get plently of emotional support. In the former, not only has his manhood been comprimised, but now he's paying his rapist half his paycheck for the next two decades.

And to those clever folks who play the "don't have sex if you don't want kids" card, how about instead of forcing abstinance, we work on better birth control? Just an idea. Pretty good one, IMO.

...

And then I remember I'm saying all this on a board for a Dr. Seuss movie. I feel a bit awkward, but get over it because it needs to be said.

----------
I used to want you dead but
Now I only want you gone.

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Men don't have to pay for dates, and women don't have to look pretty. It's not forced on either. But if they want to attract a good quality mate, they'll do what they must.

Again, if you don't want to become a father, use protection, keep intercourse to a minimum, whatever. That you find it unfair that women have more control over reproduction, because after all it is their bodies, too bad. What is it, you want the right to keep a woman from having an abortion, force an abortion, or not have to pay child support?

A bunch of men bitching online doesn't mean their movement is successful.

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[deleted]

Oh boy, this obscure female supports the MRM! I'm impressed!
<rolling eyes>

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RUby- you arent making any sense. I never said men should have control over women's bodies I clearly stated that women demand you support them yet when it comes to what men want women like to say 'no, woman first' f that.

Regarding the abortion issue - I clearly made a comparrison that if the GUY wants the baby but she doesnt she has an abortion and the guy has to accept it. Yet if the GIRL wants the baby and the guy doesn't she STILL expects the guy to pay her. The issue isnt about protection or not, its about you thinking it's ALWAYS only the 'woman's choice'.

WOmen can't live without men but they try and act like they can. Men still do most of the jobs that require heavy lifting while most women sit at a desk. Not because they can't but because women dont want to do construction jobs etc (I'm sure some do but not the majority) yet they say they work more. HA.

And regarding the men's movemnet - make fun as you will but this is exactly how the women's movement started too. ALso read this to see how men standing together stop this compnay from selling clothes and merchandise that condones women humilitaing men : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boys_are_stupid,_throw_rocks_at_them


In closing - its women like you who are ruining this country. You'll find a few men who are against women I'm sure but you'll find ALOT women who are misangry and are public about it who just hate men just because. Call it what you like but it's sexist.

You see men as subservant to women and those are the women who end up alone and depressed.

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It is a, "woman's choice" because it's her body. If you don't want that embryo, that contains your DNA, in her body, don't contribute the sperm. If you want to become a father, find a woman willing to help you make that happen.

So now we women are trying to get rid of men? Huh? LOL! What universe are you living in?

The MRM will never amount to anything because they're a hate group, and what they want is unreasonable.

BTW, no, I don't see men as subserviant and I'm not alone and depressed. I've been married for over 20 years.

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[deleted]

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/myths-of-the-manosphere-lying-about-women

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/a-war-on-women



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So you put up two links (from the same site) and you think that validates your opinion? First of all, the Men's Movement isn't about putting the women down or hatred, they are about EQUALITY something the feminist movement fought for when they first started. Look up the orginal feminists and they even say that the way that society treats men isn't what they were fighting for, they wanted equality and they are supporting the Men's Movement. (look up gloria steinem for an example).

Now, here's two links that debunk the *beep* links you've posted here, oh and by the way the first link was written by a female who is a feminist Sally L. Satel,M.D. Psychiatrist and lecturer at the Yale School of Medicine:


http://www.batteredmen.com/satel.htm

(and the Men's Movement supports and most are feminists who aren't looking for men to be put on a pesdestal but for Equality, read up different unbiased opinions and facts before you post something you just find from some person just stretching and rearranging facts to prove a point.

And heres another link from the New Oxford Review and not from some website a person started but from a renowned professional person who've studied what they write about:

http://www.newoxfordreview.org/article.jsp?did=1105-jackson

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Here's a great web site that highlights the misogyny in the MRM:
http://manboobz.com/

The idea that men are oppressed is laughable. If they were truly oppressed, we'd see news stories on it. So stop being a baby and grow up.

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[deleted]

Haha I stopped trying to impress women long ago...they´re simply not worth my attention! You can look as pretty as you like...I look through your pile of shallow BS. So have a nice day!

I´m a free man roaming away enjoying life as it shall be!

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Well, it is hard to impress a woman when you work at a McDonald's drive-thru window. LOL!

We're shallow?! And I suppose a woman's looks don't matter to you at all? Because after all, men aren't so shallow that they'd go for women based on how sexy they are. <rolling eyes>

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[deleted]

I say everybody is shallow. When people in foreign countries watch any movie from Hollywood, they will assume hey everyone there is pretty, when the US is a big place with different ideas, a melting pot. And I think if anything, society seems to hate single people whether they are man or woman. I mean why is not getting laid such a sin in the eyes of most? Is there a problem of man or woman isn't pretty, weren't we taught that it's on the inside that counts?

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There's biological reasons for our shallowness. Men go for pretty women because the physical beauty signifies health, ability to birth healthy babies. Women go for men of means because babies cost a lot to raise. This sucks for plain/ugly women and poor men.

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Ruby: I see you haven't commented on the links I've posted regarding the Men's Movement, links that professional men and WOMEN have wrote regarding it. I guess you didn't respond because it proved you wrong.

In responce to your new comment: it aint women's nature to want a man that is well off because of her future kids, it's ridiculous. If that were true how in the hell do you explain the cavemen who didnt have anything, it's not the wealth that attracted it was the man, the testosterone and women back didnt didnt have makeup and didnt go out of their way to look pretty, men were attracted because of nature it had nothing to do with beauty per sey. So to excuse those women of today who are so selfish, so into themselves is completely wrong. Women spend money to look pretty and so forth because that's what they are taught that men want but ask any man what he wants: a woman who is naturally beautiful or a women who spends so much money to make herself pretty. Putting makeup and buying shoes and dresses, etc doesn't signify that you are healthy.

Either way this isn't really important to the orginal argument so in case you didnt get a chance to read these links that tell you exactly the issues that the Men's Movement are fighting for and not what the links you've posted on here which are opinions, here they are (p.s they are from educated men and women and not from people who have a grudge):

http://www.newoxfordreview.org/article.jsp?did=1105-jackson

http://www.batteredmen.com/satel.htm

And the last link you posted was a little site that a person started, I can start a website and post5 my opnions but people won't use those sites to back up an argument because it's an opnion site. To back up an argument post up a link to an educated person who've studied up on an arguemnt. Like I've said, I've read all the links you've posted and all those links are one sided, the links I've posted are from men and women who've backed up their opinions with facts and real cases not just some survey a company did.

There are alot of things that the men's movemnet are fighting for and one of them is the issue with domestic violence. The VAWA (violence against women act) has stated that "if a woman abuses a man, its because of something he did, if a man abuses a woman its his fault"...how is that not dangerous, what do you think girls growing up will think: "no matter what I do, it's always the man's fault".
(One of the things VAWA has done is: In schools across the USA there are Women's Violence Awareness Weeks where the boys are put in seminars where they are taught how to treat women, and the girls are put in seperate seminars where they are taught how they should be treated. There isnt anything where the boys are taught how they should be treated and girls arent taught how they should treat boys. Is that equality?)

Congress has given the VAWA $1.6 billion a year and they use this money to set up organizations like this that teach people this motto. Read the links I've posted and you'll see the facts. How can Congress pass a VAMA but not one for men? There is always a balance in every law passed but this clearly is unequal.

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Our cave grandmothers chose to have sex with the cavemen who were successful hunters, not the ones that came home empty handed. What chance would their children have had they chose mates who sucked at hunting? Remember, sex is all about producing the next generation, and giving them the best chance of survival you can give them. Are you just pissed that the gorgeous women are going for the rich dudes? Their behavior was passed down to them by their cave grandmothers. In the same way, rich dudes will never settle for plain/ugly girls. BTW, because of competition in the dating game, women will always try to enhance their beauty.

Woman on man violence doesn't even come close to the problem that man on woman violence is. So of course there's going to be more effort to stop male violence.

Maybe you can come up with a reputable web site that claims VAMA discriminates against men? I doubt most men are concerned about it, just the whiny MRA.

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Beauty is only skin deep and more money more problems.

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So if we were to use your example of the cave mothers, then why are feminists mad when men say that women should stay at home and take care of the kids and of the house? I mean thats what cave women did back then right? I bet you dont like that do you, then dont use an example of the cavemen to try and find a point, what happened back then isnt still relevent today, men DONT have to buy girls things and pay on dates, it isnt NATURE as you say...its funny how everything that benefits you as a woman that men have to do you say its because we are instinctally programmed like that yet when people say what women have to do its just sexist. You're argument about the cavemen is void, we evolve and things change so it changes for men just like for women.

In responce to you statement about the VAWA, did you even read the links I posted? I guess not because then you'll see the facts of how the VAWA discriminates aganist men. And no its not just the Men's Movement, women, educated women have agreed with everything I've posted, the links I posted were even written by educated WOMEN !!!

Just get off your high horse. Their is NO REASON why men should pay do buy everything for women, its not genetics, its not programmed in the human DNA. WOmen tell men this what they have to do because its what being a man is, but thats *beep* if you think that then being a women is cooking and cleaning for the guy.

Men having to pay was something that happened before because the men worked, ie they were th eonly ones who made money, now its different.
And in responce to you saying that men make more money then women these days, thats bull, it was true say twenty years ago but not today. But even if its true, lets say men do make more money, did you knwo that women spend 75percent of the money in the USA? SO if men made the money, how is it right for the women to spend most of it, I bet you dont object to that do you!!??

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Ruby, you are an embarrassment to our gender. Next time a thought pops up into that pretty little head of yours, show it no mercy.

A black cat crossing your path signifies that the animal is going somewhere.

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