MovieChat Forums > Space Battleship Yamato (2010) Discussion > From symbol of fascism to symbol of hope...

From symbol of fascism to symbol of hope?!


I found the movie itself very well made especially for only 12 Mio Dollars but I found a little bit disturbing the part with the "history" of the Space Battleship Yamato because it looks like that the movie (I never saw the anime, so I presume that the origin of the name must be the same) wants to promote the transition of the "symbol of fascism" which the mighty imperial Japanese battleship Yamato represented to a "symbol of hope" for all the mankind. I understand this as an attempt of falsification of the history.

What do you think? Am I wrong? Perhaps I just don't the understand correctly the meaning behind all this e.g. because of lack my understanding of Japanese history and their society? Maybe was the Yamato ship more than just some tool of fascism and movies like this are putting those old symbols back where they belong?

By asking this I don't want that we open some hate thread against the Japan and Japanese people because most of the countries has problems with fully embracing their history, good and bad parts.

Thank you for your replies? And sorry for my bad English :)



The Weird 13
http://mostlyfatal.com/

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I found the movie itself very well made especially for only 12 Mio Dollars but I found a little bit disturbing the part with the "history" of the Space Battleship Yamato because it looks like that the movie (I never saw the anime, so I presume that the origin of the name must be the same) wants to promote the transition of the "symbol of fascism" which the mighty imperial Japanese battleship Yamato represented to a "symbol of hope" for all the mankind. I understand this as an attempt of falsification of the history.

Err, I think you are confusing "Space Battleship Yamato", which is popular all over Asia, with the historical/period movie "Yamato" which the Japanese recent made to glorify their WW2 martyrs...

Unlike "Space Battleship Yamato", the recent "Yamato" movie has basically no audience outside of Japan....

Anime gives the Japanese room to de-construct their history because mainstream/right-wing Japanese nationalists/news-media don't take it seriously. It's exactly like how 1970s "Golden Age" American Sci-fi could de-construct American society/history in all kinds of crazy ways.


If you care enough to go around telling people you don't care... you obviously care.

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I don't think that I am confusing with other movie because I wrote this comment right after watching "Space Battleship Yamato" :)

But it is also true that I don't speak Japanese so I can rely only on English subtitles which could be translated wrong.

Here is this part:

01:26:50,604 --> 01:26:55,871
In April of 1945,
the battleship Yamato...

01:26:56,910 --> 01:27:01,540
...Set sail to bring a ray of hope
into a time of utter despair.

01:27:02,749 --> 01:27:04,341
We do the same.


... could somebody please check, if this is at least half way correctly translated?


The Weird 13
http://mostlyfatal.com/

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It's probably correct, but you have to understand the point-of-view from that time. The Yamato was leaving on a suicide mission, with the intent of slowing the allies advance and making them reconsider invading Japan. Imperial
propaganda conviced the populace that the allies would kill all males above the age of 10, rape all the women, and eat the children. While this seems extreme,
they expected at least what they did in Nanking to be perpetuated throught Japan, so from their POV, it was as much a morale booster as the Doolittle
raids were to the US at the begining of the war.

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Ok ... but this movie was not made in April 1945 but in 2010 in time where we know a few historical facts (probably not all of course) ... so we know, what kind the system they had in Japan at that time and what was the role of battleship Yamato in the system - to protect it respectively fulfill it's military goals; though the ship didn't really have such a big role in the war until as you mentioned at the end, when they send her on a suicide mission.

But still the ship symbolize that fascistic regime ... or it really has a unique role (they took her out of the whole war concept) as a last attempt to bring hope and peace to Japan (?!? I mean the war was because of them, they could stop it at any time) and now the Space Battleship Yamato finally achieve this mission?! I find it at least a little bit strange.

From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_battleship_Yamato

Yamato was designed to counter the numerically superior battleship fleet of the United States, Japan's main rival in the Pacific.
...
In April 1945, in a desperate attempt to slow the Allied advance, Yamato was dispatched on a one way voyage to Okinawa, where it was intended that she should protect the island from invasion and fight until destroyed. Her task force was spotted south of Kyushu by US submarines and aircraft, and on 7 April she was sunk by American carrier based bombers and torpedo bombers with the loss of most of her crew.


The Weird 13
http://mostlyfatal.com/

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In the movie, it was a last-ditch attempt to save humanity,or
at least a small part since the Cosmo DNA didn't really exist
and to provide hope that humanity may be able to survive, just as the Yamato
did for Japan in WWII. Additionaly, the Yamato escentially holds the same position in Japanese SF anime that the Enterprise does in the US.

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But this was a battle ship "designed to counter the numerically superior battleship fleet of the United States" so designed for war which Japanese started intentionally. I mean, if this can be seen as an "attempt to save humanity" I'm sure we can find also such "positive symbolic meanings" in other totalitarian regimes e.g. Hitler's V-2 rockets, because of them we are able to land a man on the moon, but we do not praise those Nazi rockets.

I mean they lost the war, which they started and Yamato was just one tool of their regime, that is why I find this movie as an attempt to change the history; you cannot take just one part out and leave the whole history behind. The younger generations could misinterpret the role of Japan during the WWII through this positive view of the Yamato as a "saviour of the world".

I would understand somehow if the Yamato was made long before the war just to protect the Japan etc. as it was for example misused the swastika/hooked cross, which was primarily as a sacred symbol of good luck.

But at the end if the ship was really used just to protect people (civilians, not soldiers) because there was no other way to save those civilians (not even to declare on time the end of war and surrender to the USA) then perhaps that puts the matter in a new light :)



The Weird 13
http://mostlyfatal.com/

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LOL ... now I see that I confirmed the Godwin's law ha ha :D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

The Weird 13
http://mostlyfatal.com/

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But this was a battle ship "designed to counter the numerically superior battleship fleet of the United States" so designed for war which Japanese started intentionally. I mean, if this can be seen as an "attempt to save humanity" I'm sure we can find also such "positive symbolic meanings" in other totalitarian regimes e.g. Hitler's V-2 rockets, because of them we are able to land a man on the moon, but we do not praise those Nazi rockets.

Then how come there's a civic center in Huntville named after Werner Von Braun?

I mean they lost the war, which they started and Yamato was just one tool of their regime, that is why I find this movie as an attempt to change the history; you cannot take just one part out and leave the whole history behind. The younger generations could misinterpret the role of Japan during the WWII through this positive view of the Yamato as a "saviour of the world".

I would understand somehow if the Yamato was made long before the war just to protect the Japan etc. as it was for example misused the swastika/hooked cross, which was primarily as a sacred symbol of good luck.

But at the end if the ship was really used just to protect people (civilians, not soldiers) because there was no other way to save those civilians (not even to declare on time the end of war and surrender to the USA) then perhaps that puts the matter in a new light :)


But you forget that Yamato was part of the post WWI arms race, where everybody
(the US too) was building/rebuilding their navies. It was a situation akin to
the nuclear arms race after WWII, where everybody wanted the bomb, but we didn't
even share it with our allies (UK, France). And remeber that BEFORE planning even began for Pearl Harbor, Admiral Yammamoto(who's flagship was the Yamato)
told the Army General Staff that there was no way they could win, and that all
he could do was make it cost so much in blood and treasure that the Americans
would offer less draconinan surrender terms. The real question is what would have happened if they had attacked Pearl Harbor Monday morning, just as
the carriers were returning and there'd been an official declaration of war?

And see this article:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamato-damashii
for more insight on the word Yamato.

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I think you are confusing several things.

One:

Regarding the terminology "symbol of fascism"; semantically speaking the Empire of Japan was not a Fascist government, but an militaristic monarchy. The emperor had the final say, but most of the time the decisions were made by high-level officials (prime minister), and the Diet (bicameral legislature).

This is where things start to resemble fascism. The armed forces had an unusual power over both of these offices being able to deny them office (veto). So in effect all high level government positions were filled by "pro-military" candidates, or the military controlled the government. This is called "Japanese Nationalism" similar to but distinctively different from a prototypical Fascist style movement.

Two:

I agree with your suggestion that the Space Battleship Yamato is a direct analog to the IJN battleship Yamato, but your discounting the cultural significance of the IJN Yamato. The battleship at the time "visibly embodied Japan's determination and readiness to defend its interests against the western powers..." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamato_class_battleship#Cultural_significance). The word Yamato "used as a poetic name for Japan." So in a symbolic sense the ship represented the country. (ditto link)

I wouldn't say the ship was used to defend civilians, but as a desperate attempt to defend Japan, at any cost. So yes, it's romanticizing a darker part of Japanese history, but it represents the willingness to sacrifice everything to save the world(Japan).

Also good read. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten-g%C5%8D_sakusen)

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I agree with your suggestion that the Space Battleship Yamato is a direct analog to the IJN battleship Yamato
More than that, it's the same fraking ship! They build the wave motion engine & gun into the wrecked hull of the Yamato while it lays embedded in the (former) seabed; that's why such an advanced prototype starship looks like a 250 year old WWII battleship, because it is!

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Yamato was a desperate effort of a nearly defeated Japan in 1945. The people were rightly proud of her. This has nothing to do with fascism. It has everything to do with military pride and naval professionalism

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It is something of a strange alternate universe with many parallels, which actually don't bother me. I think it is interesting that the Japanese in this movie and series acquire a weapon "The Wave Motion Gun" which has obvious similarities to "the bomb". It's a nice touch how they put on shades to protect their eyes during the testing of the weapon.

On one hand the Earth has been irradiated by interstellar bombs to the point of no hope, but on the other hand the heroes seem very gleeful about using this new technology to wipe out fleets, and in the end perform genocide, all be it in self-defense. All of this is made easier by the fact that the enemy are all CGI bug monsters who really don't have a lot of dimension or redeeming qualities. I won't say more on that. Just that while the film makers go out of their way to show the sacrifices and tough decisions of war, they don't do much to make the enemy very human. It could be that the lack of individuality could have parallels with the perception many have of communists or the following orders aspect of the fascists, but I think this weakens the movie for me...or I'm just reading into it.

I forget exactly how the cartoon progresses, just that at least the Gamalons were humanoid.

I think it's interesting, though I'm not sure if it's possible or necessary to make it all fit exactly with history.

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SPOILER.........

..........while I wasn't overly impressed with the gimmick surrounding the dual nature of Gamala and Iskandar in the film, I think there could be a similarity to Americans using defected German scientists (especially persecuted German Jewish scientists) to develop the bomb.

The fact that the Japanese are the heroes in this story isn't a big deal since it takes place in the future where anything goes and Japan could lead the world in its rescue. There is no indication that the Japan of this film is a fascist country.

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You should watch "The Irresponsible Captain Taylor". It is an anime show where the "enemy" is just the same as the "good guys" and the hero of the show is either a genious or a crazy person. The humor is spot on and the meassage is good!

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I think the op's problem is that he is looking at a Japanese symbol from an American standpoint. All the responses seems to indicate that Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor was some sort of unwarranted act of aggression that could only be carried out by an evil, corrupt government. Not to say Japan was blameless, but the United States' total embargo of oil to Japan was basically an act of war in itself. In that regard, with alittle bit of reality and a alittle bit of propaganda the Yamato was a symbol of hope against a seemingly invincible enemy hellbent on choking the life out of Japan. That symbol endures to this day because if you were in their shoes you would appreciate how the brave Yamato and it's crew fought battle after battle in a desperate attempt to stop an enemy they knew they couldn't beat.

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I think the op's problem is that he is looking at a Japanese symbol from an American standpoint.


True dat.

I suppose I can understand if the Iranians see the USS Enterprise in Star Trek as a symbol of Imperialism/Hegemony, now that the real USS Enterprise is coming to the Straits of Homuz....

But I really think its a "movie-structure" thing-- cos all their movie adaptations needed/tended to have "clear" enemies.... whereas the USS Enterprise in the TV series met and dealt with lots of ethical challenges (like their own Prime Directive), just like Yamato did in the TV series.

I mean, just like Space Battleship Yamato, the USS Enterprise in Star Trek is a symbol/projection of the "hope" that Americans want it to be-- but which the real USA never really was.


If you care enough to go around telling people you don't care... you obviously care.

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> Not to say Japan was blameless, but the United States' total embargo of oil to
> Japan was basically an act of war in itself.

Are you serious? You make it sound like US imposed the 1940 oil embargo for no reason. Japan invaded Korea, China, committing horrible war crimes, killing innocent civilians. Yamato didn't defend Japan, it only defended its murderous regime. Yamato didn't need to defend Japan, because US didn't want to conquer it, US were only defending themselves.

How dare you to try to apologize Japanese war crimes.

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The simple fact of the matter is - as un-Politically Correct as it may be to say it, it is still true - the Japanese are so proud (to the point of arrogance) a people as to simply deny all the truly terrible things they did during WWII, and still to this day see themselves as victims of external aggression.


To hate another simply for proving you to be in the wrong is the lowest form of cowardice...

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You know nothing about Japan.

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First, to understand the japanese paradigm in the WW2 as fascism is as good as to understand american paradigm as plain imperialism. Japan fought a war and wars are a dirty thing, but they had they reasons and if you visit the Yasukuni war museum you will understand that, on the contrary with germans, they respect their history and they seems to be in peace with it (in a general view). The fought bravely and there is no shame in to lose the way they lose, under the menace of fully anihilation of their country and people under nuclear fire. And they where close to choose to fight until the bitter end... A devastated country, spoiled under massive bombardment with nukes, and with just a few survivors living underground... Got some deja vu? Also, you have the story of the Kamikaze, the wind of the gods... When Japan was close to be defeated by the momgols, the strong Kamikaze, as a real deux ex machina, save the day for the shogunate... if not again Japan had been a devastated country. So, in my opinion, more than your hipothesis, that this movie's motivation is to transform the symbolic charge of the Yamato battleship, I think that is the expression of deeper nightmares and hopes of the japanese culture.

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A wise man said that understanding is a three-edged sword...your side, their side and the truth.

We can sit here and judge based on what we know from history. The Japanese committed unspeakable atrocities during the course of the war. They went looking for a fight and reaped the whirlwind. That doesn't mean that all of their soldiers were dishonorable. Many were decent men who were taken by propaganda, and who, at the end, died bravely in defense of their country.

Certainly Space Battleship Yamato tries to appeal to whatever nobility exists in Japanese memory, and in some way it's probably a method of rewriting history to make their people heroes again. We did the same thing with the Viet Nam war. Rambo, Missing in Action and even Platoon were ways of easing the American conscience about Viet Nam, much as "Yamato" rewrites World War II for the Japanese.

---------End of Line.

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Interesting thing about the Japanese that a much wiser guy once said: Japanese may hate war but they still revere their dead warriors...

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What is wrong with you? Japan had reasons for war? There is no good reason for killing millions of people.

Germany of today should be applauded how they admit to crimes of their forefathers.

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For the japanese the Battlecruiser Yamato represents all the virtues of the Yamato people: honour, courage, self denial, sure it's not a symbol of Fascism.

The original series showed the Yamato rising from Earth and it was a strong symbolic meaning of a people who rised from the ashes of the war to challenge the future and there's nothing wrong with that, we aren't talking about Unit 733 but a Battleship with a crew of people who were fighting for their own country, like the Bismark or the Roma.

Juliet Parrish: You can't win a war if you're extinct!

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Newsflash: The Japanese were imperialists, not fascists. Subtle point, but considering most American's don't know the difference between Communism and Socialism, it's not surprising.

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More accurately, Imperialism.

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