The American cut clocks in at apparently 2hr3 compared to the original running time of 2hr10 minutes. That isn't much but I have heard some people saying that the American cut might be what was shown in Berlin and its apparently got completely different scenes.
If you’ve only seen the American Cut of “The Grandmaster”, you haven’t seen “The Grandmaster”. While Wong Kar-Wai is living proof that the first cut of a movie that escapes onto cinema screens should not be implicitly regarded as a definitive or holy object, “The Grandmaster” tragically illustrates how refinements can shear away what made a movie so special in the first place. While Wong is rather transparent about how the American cut is a concession to cultural ignorance rather than an artistic statement, he’s profoundly mistaken in thinking that such a concession was required in the first place, and may be too close to the material to recognize that the American cut is insanely reductive and, at the same time, also harder to understand than the original.
I actually thought the US cut was much easier to understand than the original, and I thought the second half had some of the same issues as the original. In my opinion, the first half of the US cut is better, while the second half of the original cut is more rewarding.
I will be buying the international Asian version once it's out on Blu-Ray. I'd rather see the original cut first and then see the American version in theaters to see what was cut out.
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I had no idea about this 20 minute cut to The Grandmaster when I saw the film tonight but I guess it explains why the narrative is a little muddled. But despite that this is an extraordinary film with magnificent cinematography, great performances and tremendous action sequences. Why butcher a foreign film?
The American cut is simply a different film than the Chinese. Sure, they share many of the same scenes, but the cut of some scenes, the addition of others, and even the re-positioning of scenes changes the focus of the film. I didn't find it harder to understand than the Chinese version, and in fact found a much stronger statement of the feeling of exile among the refugees in Hong Kong, as opposed to the feeling of lost time in the original.
Wong Kar Wai was right - this was simply the opportunity to approach the subject differently. Too many people complain about the film, instead of simply letting it be what it is. They impose their views on what they think it SHOULD be, instead of what WKW has made it say. It's an art film and it is an impressionistic one - there's nothing wrong with that, and as an art film, shouldn't be expected to follow any set rules. Its story lies in the one the director gives us to see. It's not about Ip Man - it's about his world that he came from. He is our guide. Once the audience accepts that, the worst of the "problems" will drop away.
I saw the American cut for the third time tonight. The first viewing was intriguing. The second, something of a chore. The third time, darn near perfect. Art has as much to with YOU, the viewer, as it does with what's on the screen. If you're curious about the film, go see it for yourself. You can only feel it for yourself, no one else can do that for you. See it, then see the original. Each version has its strengths, which I wouldn't miss out on for all the tea in China. (And yes, the Chinese version is considerably more emotionally satisfying; I felt Gong Er's storyline was handled better in it, but I enjoyed the addition of some scenes regarding her in this cut, as I mourned the loss of others - that's why I think both versions should be seen - not to mention new scenes of Tony Leung, plus a selection of nice fight clips following the first section of the end credits.)
But DON'T expect the film The Weinstein Company is advertising. They have done a horrible disservice to the film, and have deceived and angered people who were expecting what they are advertising.
Well, I'm off too see the U.S. version in theaters in a couple hours. I will get the Asian version on Blu-Ray, once it's available. I'd rather watch the Asian version anyways, but I'm curious to see how different both films are. The same thing happened with Shaolin Soccer, which also had several cuts. The Asian version is definitely better.
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I found the American version, despite some problems (and some annoying cards), to actually be superior to the Chinese cut in some ways. They both are worth watching, it's not the normal butcher job, it's a completely alternate cut with new stuff and a different ordering of scenes that's neither inherently better or worse, just different.
Honestly, I'd love to see a longer third cut that's ordered more like the American cut chronologically but has the majority of stuff from the Chinese cut that was removed. I'd want it to keep all the new American stuff and remove the cards.
druss that's my feeling exactly, regarding your third cut. I feel between the two cuts, and some additional footage from the cutting room floor, the perfect cut of the film exists. Personally, I preferred the non-linear Chinese cut, as the order of scenes created a bigger emotional pay off, but I liked the additional kung fu scenes, plus extra footage of the opening fight scene - much more impressive, in the American cut. (Was it just me, or did it seem to you that Gong Er's fight with Ma San feltl like it had been cut from the original? It just didn't seem to flow that well, but maybe that's because I'd seen it a few times already, and was too familiar with it.)
They definitely could've dropped the card regarding the Hung Gar master. It made Ip Man's following dialogue redundant.
I did like the switch of Mrs. Ip putting the coat on her husband, and his comment about Foshan not being that cold, to the same scene with their roles reversed in the original, though - Ip putting the coat on his wife and her question about needing it. It showed exactly what Ip spoke about in his narration: "She understood me well." That was a VERY good choice. She knew what was going on his head.
Ok, so I went and saw The Grandmaster yesterday. For me it's not as good as Donnie Yen's Ip Man movies, even though there is some decent acting and action in this film. The difference really is that the story flows in Donnie's films. The action scenes are spread out and paced perfectly. With the Grandmaster, it's like someone went crazy with the editing and just jumbled the story together the best they could. It jumps forward and back and foward and back, then forward and foward. How the story is narrated wasn't good either and I didn't care for some of the music. As with any martial arts film, you go for the action. The first half of the movie is beautifully cheorographed by the master Yuen Woo-Ping. The fight in the rain is just awesome. Ip Man fight with Gong Er is simply breathtaking. Ip Man sparring matches with the Southern Masters is superb. You can see how different the styles are and the techniques each master uses to defend and attack. After those scenes however, the film takes a serious dive. Maybe Tony Leung got hurt or something because he literally doesn't fight anyone for the rest of the film. All this huge build up for him to fight against the Northern Grandmaster and all he has to do is break a round cake (cookie). What!?!? Then Ip Man tells us that masters all gathered at this one location and would challenge you by simple means like "offering you a cigarette" or "buying you tea". Then we see an old man offer Ip Man the cigarette and after some conversation, gets up and walks away. This is after Ip Man says, "I'd like to test you." Then he meets some crazy guy called "The Razor Yixiantian" (Chen Chang). Razor pulls out his razor and Ip Man grabs some steel chop sticks. They run at each other and the razor rubs against the chop sticks and it makes a unique musical note. Then conversation is made and the fight is over. What?!?!? I was so pissed. The rest of the film is mostly about Gong Er & Ma San battle for the Gong legacy & Gong Er & Ip Man's feelings for one another. Sure the fight between Gong Er & Ma San next to a speeding train is great, but after almost being bored to sleep, I wasn't expecting much.
The story is messy. While Ip Man is in Foshan he's a rich family man and his wife and family is everything to him. When he moves to Hong Kong and they are in poverty, his two daughters die from starvation. His wife and son seems to be left to tend for themselves. You don't hear anything else about his family for the rest of the film. Huh!?!? For me, that just didn't make sense. Of course a lot of the film was cut out, so I'll have to see the original asian cut to see what was left out. Maybe things are explained better.
Overall the film is worth seeing for the fights. The story about the Southern and Northern masters and Grandmasters can be confusing and the final result is a complete cop out. Why have this huge buildup with a lacklustered result? The story between Gong Er and Ip Man is really the same way. The relationship literally goes no where in the end. Not even a kiss or passionate hug. Very sad and boring in the end.
I gave the film a 6/10. I enjoyed most of the big fights and the acting was still well done even though the script isn't very good. Not worth going to the theater to see it. Wait for it to come on Netflix or rent DVD or Blu-Ray version. I'll probably still get the DVD dirt cheap on Ebay as I'm a big fan of Ip Man and want to collect all these films.
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Blackace, if you hated this version, I'm afraid you'll hate the original. You'll get no answers, only more of the same. As I said in my previous post (did you see it?) it is not a kung fu film. It is not about Ip Man, but his world of the martial arts, and the people inhabiting it. It is about about the refugee grandmasters' lost culture (the sound of a razor on metal), it is about the philosophy that feeds kung fu (breaking of the cookie - "break from what you know" - and probably the main reason WKW made this movie. Too many people think kung-fu is about fighting. It's about doing your best to avoid a fight, and if you can't, doing your best to defend yourself. Kung fu is working toward perfection, in EVERYTHING you do. There is more to it, than beating someone up. There are also things going on in this film that only kung-fu practitioners, and/or Chinese would understand. It is, after all, a film made in China, for Chinese people.
Regarding Gong Er and Ip Man - his loyalty to his marriage (something, I gather, didn't happen in real life) is proof of his grandmaster status - he remained loyal. But their relationship is also a common Wong Kar Wai theme - people who are perfect for each other, meeting at the wrong time. That frequently happens in life. This ain't no Hollywood movie. You need to see what is there, instead of letting disappointment at what's not there, blind you from seeing what the film is really about.
I think you are not an avid movie-goer. WKW's movies are best known for his quality and this is the first time I heard someone say the other Ip Man copies from HK is better than this one. Those Donnie Yen versions maybe more commercial or easier to follow and appeal to more people but definitely this is a better movie. I know many people don't know how to appreciate a WKW movie. When his 2nd and 3rd film, "Days of being Wild" and "Ashes of Time" were first released in Hong Kong, many audience walked out before the film ends. Today they are considered classics and "Days of Being Wild" top the list as HK's best movie.
That's pretty dumb to say he's "not an avid movie-goer" because he prefers another film over this one.
I enjoyed The Grandmaster but I also preferred the more conventional structure and storytelling of the Donnie Yen films. While The Grandmaster may have had certain superior elements--cinematography, arguably choreography--the Donnie Yen films were simply more fun and entertaining.
what exactly is the extra footage of the opening fight scene? the HK version shows the fight in the rain with the big group, followed by Tony fighting Cung Le. what additional footage of this scene is in the US version? thanks
Siulung - in the American version of the opening fight, there are less jump-cuts. The Chinese version of the fight was more heavily edited. Also, during this scene, it is shown that the fight is being watched by the other masters, who are remarking on the fight - the purpose of the fight, and Ip Man's suitability to be considered as Gong's replacement.
Dang, despite being longer, the Chinese version is far from "complete." That conversation would have been nice to see. Did they retain his philosophical musing in the very first scene? Or did they put it somewhere else?
I have a feeling we'll get a third cut, sort of like with Alexander. I was really hoping the American blu-ray release would have both versions, as well. I still got it, though, like I said this isn't the normal butcher job, it's a true alternate cut (for better or for worse). Watching the American cut a second time, I still really liked it as a whole.
It sounds like the international cut (which is technically a third cut) is sort of what I mentioned, the structure of the American cut with its extended moments but with a lot of the extra bits from the Chinese cut as well.
Has anyone here seen the international cut? I believe the blu-ray release in France will be this cut.
Kknauer, very well said and I agree wholeheartedly. The two versions are noticeably different takes on the same story - one devoted to the passage of time, the other primarily devoted to character - and the two versions of the film are companion pieces that point to a perfect cut of the film.
I agree that the Chinese version is more emotional, but there's something to the brevity of this film's second half, as well as the extra Gong Er footage. That said, I was enjoying the first half of the US cut so much that I wanted it to go straight into the Gong Er story (funeral procession and such), which it of course saved for a flashback along with the fight with Ma San. But I felt this version was chugging along so well that I think it might actually be stronger if they didn't save all of Gong Er's second half footage for a flashback. But seeing all of her footage strung together was a transcendent experience nonetheless, and after having only seen the Chinese cut, I actually wondered if it would be better if they showed her final confrontation with Ma San in linear order. Here, I almost got my wish.
On the subject of fight scenes, I was disappointed that The Razor's awesomely brutal fight was truncated down to about 15 seconds in the US cut. That's the last thing I was expecting to find missing in a US cut! Meanwhile, I was equally as confused when I saw The Razor and Ip meet up! Why is their confrontation not in the Chinese cut? I think if it was it would have definitely strengthened that version of the film, connecting the character most in need of extra screen time to the character who has the most. The main thing I would like to see happen in a third cut of the film is for all of The Razor's scenes to be in tact. Oh heck, I would just love to see a cut that has all of the footage that he shot. I think it could only make the movie greater.
I wouldn't have minded seeing Gong Er's show-down with Ma San occur in chronological order, either. I like its placement in the Chinese version better, but that's not saying much. Maybe WKW places it as a flashback, to break up the succession of small episodes in Ip's life (in both versions). I was tickled to death to see Ip Man's encounter with Razor, though. First time around it seemed to appear from nowhere for no reason, but now, having seen it a couple more times, it fits in nicely with all the other examples of refugee life in HK.
I do sorely miss the material of Jiang that was cut from the American version. He was an interesting supporting character, and almost a secondary father figure to Gong Er.
Something I wondered about.... in the American version, after Ip leaves Gong Er's clinic in Hong Kong, she enters a room, (as though she's just returning from seeing Ip out), where Jiang is, and says "I never expected to see him again, especially not under those circumstances." She's not wearing the same clothes as she was in the preceding scene. Hearing enough about how WKW works, I wondered if that scene was originally shot, to be used in regards to the Razor, but it was dug up for this version to be used in reference to Ip Man. Just wondering. (As though I have nothing better to do. Lol!) Even as much as Gong Yutian respected Ip Man as a master, I can't imagine him approving of Ip as a suitor to Gong Er, (as encouraged by Jiang), as he was married, (even if he was unable to return to China). In fact, Jiang didn't seem too fond of Ip in the Chinese version, probably because he cared enough about Gong Er to hate to see her in pain over him.
That's a very interesting point about the scene with Jiang in the scene after Ip meets Gong in the clinic. It honestly didn't cross my mind, but it's a very interesting thought!
I have now seen the US cut 3 times, and it gets more impressive every time. I remarked that I wanted to see the main Gong Er sequence in chronological sequence, but after three viewings I love how its shown in its totality in flashback.
I'm right with you on The Razor's encounter with Ip, and after three viewings, it seems very appropriate indeed. I still wish we had more Razor footage, though, and I desperately wish that the encounter between Ip and Razor was in the Hong Kong cut. And maybe there is a love triange after all between Ip, Razor and Gong.
I would say that my only fault with the movie at this point is the end. After so much almost ambiguous emotion - the Razor encounter, the Gong Er flashbacks and romantic Ip encounters - the movie seems to wrap too neatly, and brings things down to earth with the introduction, apparently, of child-size Bruce Lee, which sends the movie out on a sudden overly biopic note. I sort of wish they'd have just saved the Bruce Lee talk for the credits, and ended the movie pre-credits with Ip's "What's your style?" line.
Blackace, the original cut is already available on BluRay. That's how I've already seen it. It came out on DVD and BluRay back in April. Try www.yesasia.com. They specialize in selling Asian products to Americans. (I just bought mine off EBay, though. :-) )
So I gather from everyone here that there are big differences between the China and US versions. WKW must have done it to suit the US audience. I understand his past movies are not commercial enough and hardly shown in US or maybe he is not willing to dubbed them into English ?
BTW, can I know is this US release in English or in its original language ? I hope it's not dubbed into English.
I think in the China release, the Razor and Ip Man did not appear in the same scenes and the Razor was not shown as a barber. I have the dvd, going to watch it again soon :-)
So I gather from everyone here that there are big differences between the China and US versions. WKW must have done it to suit the US audience. I understand his past movies are not commercial enough and hardly shown in US or maybe he is not willing to dubbed them into English ?
BTW, can I know is this US release in English or in its original language ? I hope it's not dubbed into English.
I think in the China release, the Razor and Ip Man did not appear in the same scenes and the Razor was not shown as a barber. I have the dvd, going to watch it again soon :-)
Sound to me like Harvey Weinstein, a.k.a. Harvey Scissorhands, ordered changes that didn't need to be made. The problem with Weinstein is he's more concerned with turning a profit than making quality movies, so he's all too happy to dumb down anything he touches in the hope it'll get more people through the door. Personally, that infuriates me. The man is a disgrace to the entire movie industry.
I'm not sorry that the Weinstein cut didn't make it to cinemas in the UK now. As advised in this forum, ordering the Hong Kong theatrical bluray is the best way to see the film. It ain't cheap, but for the level of choreography and production design on display, I would say its worth the expense.