by Lloyd_Lloyd;
"Ok, so it's not specified. I suppose the implication is intended, though.'
That's your assumption. I've looked at a lot of material related to the film. And Carbon 14 dating is not specified by the film makers.
So, it remains possible (or even probable) that another, unknown technique to find the age of an organic specimen was used in keeping with a science fiction franchise which has technology that is far beyond our own (faster than light travel for instance).
"I don't think I claimed that Prometheus is more of an insult to science than any other big box office science fiction movie. I'm not sure why you're challenging me to explain this."
OK, I was trying to draw your attention to the science fiction genre itself. And that the speculative or even fantasy portion of science fiction cannot be defended as a given to be an insult to science imo.
How can the existence of major portions of a well established fiction genre be an insult?
"The problem as I see it isn't in the sophistication or sensitivity of the ship's or the archaeologists' sensors. The problem is that accurate carbon dating on Earth rests on a mountain of cross-calibrated measurements collected using multiple methods, and with multiple corrections for known perturbations. All of that is absent on LV-223.
Ok, but imagine that, on arrival, the crew dispatched an army of robot researchers to measure and correlate tree rings (are there trees on that planet?), lake sediments, ice cores, pollen deposits, etc."
Well, it remains a fact that less accurate Carbon 14 dating was done when the technique was first implemented in 1949.
I separate Libby's original research from the refining of Carbon 14 dating.
Libby reasoned that since the half-life of C14 was 5568 years, they should obtain a C14 concentration of about 50% that which was found in living wood (see Libby, 1949 for further details). The results they obtained indicated this was the case.
http://www.c14dating.com/int.html If the film uses Carbon 14 dating (and that is not a certainty) what I am claiming is that the Prometheus ship could accomplish Libby's original research quickly using robotics.
Would that result in an unrefined result if that technique was used? True. But Libby still used that unrefined technique in 1949 and soon after.
And Shaw does not claim accuracy within a few years.
Shaw: Two thousand years, give or take.
How large is "give or take"? We don't know.
"lake sediments, ice cores, pollen deposits, etc. And they deduced all of the ways by which the carbon isotope ratio of the atmosphere had altered over the millennia---by climate change, input of fossil carbon, solar and cosmic irradiation, etc; and so they built a framework by which such perturbations could be corrected."
Carbon 14 dating was done in our world before these later refinements to the technique were implemented.
From the same article;
Briefly, opinion was divided between those who thought the radiocarbon dates were correct (ie, that radiocarbon years equated more or less to solar or calendar years) and those who felt they were flawed and the historical data was more accurate. In the late 1950's and early 1960's, researchers measuring the radioactivity of known age tree rings found fluctuations in C14 concentration up to a maximum of �5% over the last 1500 years.
Carbon 14 dating in 1949 is still an implementation of the technique even if it did not yet have later refinements and calibrations.
"now imagine that they applied their method to the remains of a being who didn't even come from that planet!"
How do you know that? The birth place of that Engineer is not indicted in any script or interview by the film makers.
The LV-223 base was probably in operation longer than 32,000 years from information from the movie (the 35,000 year old Scotland cave).
It is certainly possible during that time for a humanoid to live out their life on that base.
BB -)
it is just in my opinion - imo - 🌈
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kerryedavis
7 years ago
But even if a particular alien was born on that particular world, the alien physiology might not handle the subject element(s) in the same ways as native items.
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BB-15
7 years ago
by kerryedavis;
"But even if a particular alien was born on that particular world, the alien physiology might not handle the subject element(s) in the same ways as native items."
According to the DNA result in the film, those aliens were a type of human.
And since it is known how we humans on earth handle the subject elements, it is reasonable to believe that the aliens would handle them in a similar manner.
Now think of the age of the dead alien as a hypothesis. More evidence in the film supports the accuracy of the reading (the DNA evidence).
Imo at least, BB ;-)
it is just in my opinion - imo - 🌈
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Lloyd_Lloyd
7 years ago
That's your assumption. I've looked at a lot of material related to the film. And Carbon 14 dating is not specified by the film makers.
So, it remains possible (or even probable) that another, unknown technique to find the age of an organic specimen was used in keeping with a science fiction franchise which has technology that is far beyond our own (faster than light travel for instance).
When they're dating some organic remains and they use a "carbon probe" to do so, I think the meaning is pretty clear. They might have said any scientific-sounding nonsense, but the writers chose to use "carbon" specifically, and I think that's because carbon dating is known and accepted by the public as a scientific dating method.
Well, it remains a fact that less accurate Carbon 14 dating was done when the technique was first implemented in 1949.
I separate Libby's original research from the refining of Carbon 14 dating.
Libby reasoned that since the half-life of C14 was 5568 years, they should obtain a C14 concentration of about 50% that which was found in living wood (see Libby, 1949 for further details). The results they obtained indicated this was the case.
http://www.c14dating.com/int.html
If the film uses Carbon 14 dating (and that is not a certainty) what I am claiming is that the Prometheus ship could accomplish Libby's original research quickly using robotics.
Would that result in an unrefined result if that technique was used? True. But Libby still used that unrefined technique in 1949 and soon after.
And Shaw does not claim accuracy within a few years.
Shaw: Two thousand years, give or take.
How large is "give or take"? We don't know.
"lake sediments, ice cores, pollen deposits, etc. And they deduced all of the ways by which the carbon isotope ratio of the atmosphere had altered over the millennia---by climate change, input of fossil carbon, solar and cosmic irradiation, etc; and so they built a framework by which such perturbations could be corrected."
Carbon 14 dating was done in our world before these later refinements to the technique were implemented.
From the same article;
Briefly, opinion was divided between those who thought the radiocarbon dates were correct (ie, that radiocarbon years equated more or less to solar or calendar years) and those who felt they were flawed and the historical data was more accurate. In the late 1950's and early 1960's, researchers measuring the radioactivity of known age tree rings found fluctuations in C14 concentration up to a maximum of �5% over the last 1500 years.
Carbon 14 dating in 1949 is still an implementation of the technique even if it did not yet have later refinements and calibrations.
Yes, it turned out that,
on Earth, uncorrected isotope ratios translated into dates that were reasonably accurate, and to prove the validity of the method researchers had to compare C14-derived ages with those obtained by more absolute means. Shaw and co have no idea whether carbon isotope ratios can be used equivalently on LV-223, and they have no obvious means to validate the method. The fact that the mystery of the Engineers is so central to the plot makes it seem especially unsatisfying to me that the writers just waved this away. Actually I suspect they didn't dismiss it consciously; rather I think they were probably just unaware of the limitations of the method.
How do you know that? The birth place of that Engineer is not indicted in any script or interview by the film makers.
The LV-223 base was probably in operation longer than 32,000 years from information from the movie (the 35,000 year old Scotland cave).
It is certainly possible during that time for a humanoid to live out their life on that base.
It's true, I don't know that. Shaw doesn't know it either, but she does know that the Engineers are a space-faring race. That's why it's unreasonable to simply assume that this particular one lived all of its life on LV-223, in equilibrium with the atmosphere, and unexposed to other sources of carbon-14.
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BB-15
7 years ago
to Lloyd_Lloyd; I have enjoyed our discussion including your well thought out conclusions.
And also our exchange of ideas has been cordial which is rare on IMDb and much appreciated by me.
"When they're dating some organic remains and they use a "carbon probe" to do so, I think the meaning is pretty clear. They might have said any scientific-sounding nonsense, but the writers chose to use "carbon" specifically, and I think that's because carbon dating is known and accepted by the public as a scientific dating method."
You are certainly entitled to believe that the film makers intended that the movie used the Carbon 14 method as we understand it today.
That is still an assumption but I understand the logic in your reasoning.
I simply do not come to the same conclusion for various reasons.
- In this fictional timeline in earth's future history, humanity has explored multiple planets in our solar system but also beyond it such as Alpha Centauri A, Alpha Centauri B and Proxima Centauri. As well as solar systems beyond that.
- The Weyland company has not only done exploration to this extent in this fictional timeline but has completed terraforming other planets.
This background information is from the film makers.
The conclusion I draw from this is that in this fictional timeline and in the process of that exploration, humanity has been able to develop a dating technology (for native organic specimens) and a method which is reasonably accurate on other planets. And these explorers have a database of worlds to draw from to refine their calculations.
That's my view.
Of course we have the privilege to agree to disagree.
"Yes, it turned out that, on Earth, uncorrected isotope ratios translated into dates that were reasonably accurate,"
Yes, that is what happened in our history.
- As I mentioned, the characters in this film are part of a fictional human civilization which (according to the film makers) have a database of other worlds where exploration was done. Previously only primitive life was found but that would allow the establishment of methods to find the age of such life.
Any scientific methods shown in the film would reflect years of work where such methods were refined on other worlds.
"Shaw and co have no idea whether carbon isotope ratios can be used equivalently on LV-223, and they have no obvious means to validate the method. "
You have already stated that Libby was doing Carbon 14 dating before his method was validated.
Certainly in science hypotheses and methods are created which turn out to be accurate with the further gathering of evidence.
Such was the case with Libby's method.
- In the fictional timeline of the film, explorers from earth have visited other planets which contained primitive life and over time have developed methods to determine the age of such life.
And at the same time the technology with regard to robotics, computers, networking has gone far beyond what exists in our present world.
- It is reasonable imo for the characters to believe that the initial information they received about that moon would be enough for them to determine with some accuracy the age of death of the deceased Engineer.
But again, we can agree to disagree.
"The fact that the mystery of the Engineers is so central to the plot makes it seem especially unsatisfying to me that the writers just waved this away."
Now we are getting to your personal taste which is beyond a discussion of what might be possible, with some future technology, in terms of deterring the age of organic specimens.
- As far as my view of the mystery in terms of plot, I come to a different conclusion.
The age of death of the Engineer is not to harm the mystery of these aliens.
That date shows when the base had a catastrophe and also when the Engineers were planning on killing or altering life on earth including humanity.
That date of about 2000 years ago is a piece to the backstory in the plot of the film.
The Engineers were coming to destroy/alter life on earth at the time of the Roman Empire.
This decision may be explored further in the next film. We shall see.
And again, we can agree to disagree.
"Actually I suspect they didn't dismiss it consciously; rather I think they were probably just unaware of the limitations of the method."
Jon Spaihts, the co-writer of "Prometheus" and his clear interest in science and networking with scientists leads me to question your conclusion.
I'm a science junkie myself, so I usually go into a story with a pretty grounded scientific framework for my premise.
I also work with an organization called the Science & Entertainment Exchange, whose entire reason for being is to connect filmmakers with scientists to improve storytelling and better represent science in fiction. I've had invaluable conversations with scientists – real luminaries in their fields – through that organization.
http://io9.gizmodo.com/5909279/prometheus-writer-jon-spaihts-on-how-to-create-a-great-space-movieBut we can again agree to disagree.
"It's true, I don't know that. Shaw doesn't know it either, but she does know that the Engineers are a space-faring race. That's why it's unreasonable to simply assume that this particular one lived all of its life on LV-223, in equilibrium with the atmosphere, and unexposed to other sources of carbon-14."
Of course this comes back to the exact method she was using which the viewer does not know.
The belief that Shaw was using Carbon 14 as we know it is an assumption.
As for the location of where the Engineer lived, assumptions can be made.
Later testing on that moon if necessary could determine the accuracy of that assumption.
Assumptions are made, in dating material on earth in non fiction, such as about the level of contamination of specimens for instance.
When the C14 method was originally developed, Libby and his research team had to assume that the ratios of the carbon isotopes they were measuring had been altered only by 14C decay (Taylor, 1987:3) and that the sample material accurately represented the event to be dated. Sample materials deposited in archaeological or geological contexts seldom remain in pristine condition, of course, they are often degraded and altered chemically. Libby realized that the residual carbon 14 of some samples would be thus affected and suggested that some materials would be more accurate for dating than others. He predicted that charcoal would be the most effective, shell, the least.
http://www.c14dating.com/pret.htmlScientists can make assumptions about specimens.
As for characters in a science fiction movie to make assumptions? That's part of the genre.
Imo at least, BB ;-)
it is just in my opinion - imo - 🌈
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Lloyd_Lloyd
7 years ago
to Lloyd_Lloyd; I have enjoyed our discussion including your well thought out conclusions.
And also our exchange of ideas has been cordial which is rare on IMDb and much appreciated by me.
I have enjoyed it too, and I have looked forward to your replies. But I am still not convinced. I watched the film again a couple of days ago for the first time since it was in the cinema. I had forgotten (though kerryedavis did remind me in this thread) that the carbon sampling took place within the controlled atmosphere of the structure, which was explicitly not in equilibrium with the air outside. So even if an automatic campaign of calibration had been possible and had been undertaken 'off-film', without having been even hinted at, in the short time since their arrival at the planet, it still wouldn't help to date this sample whose biology was unknown, irradiation history unknown, travel history unknown, diet unknown. And after seeing it again, I maintain that the writers clearly intended to imply that the technique used to estimate the time since the Engineer died was radiocarbon dating.
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Protozoid
7 years ago
Who spends this much time complaining about sci-fi movies on the internet and then calls sci-fi writers lazy?
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Lloyd_Lloyd
7 years ago
Who spends this much time complaining about sci-fi movies on the internet and then calls sci-fi writers lazy?
I'm not sure I get your meaning. Could you make your comment more direct?
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BB-15
7 years ago
by Lloyd_Lloyd;
"biology was unknown,"
This calls into question your entire argument.
The film clearly states that Engineer DNA is a type of human DNA.
Is human biology known? Yes.
And other types of humans like Neanderthals have been studied in our world and the knowledge about such human variation would be much better known in a science fiction future.
"without having been even hinted at,"
A serious space travel science fiction movie in the future does not need to explain all of its technology every step of the way which leads to a result.
For instance in "Prometheus" the crew goes from earth's solar system to a planet/moon system, the Zeta Reticuli, binary system which is 39.5 light years away.
- But the ship only takes 2 years to get to LV-223.
Obviously using basic math, the ship was traveling faster than light.
But how? Are there schematics of the engine? No.
Is there a detailed explanation of the workings of the engine? No.
* The burden of proof in serious space travel future science fiction that something cannot happen is on the critic.
- The argument against a speculative technology then must be that it is impossible. That is no matter how advanced a technology is, the result shown in a movie can never be done.
Imo you have not made that argument.
"the carbon sampling took place within the controlled atmosphere of the structure, which was explicitly not in equilibrium with the air outside."
The tunnels in the film were not sealed from the outside atmosphere.
These tunnels were more open to the outside air than many buildings in our world.
In our world people can spend many hours per day in almost sealed/closed air conditioned buildings with circulated air.
People in our world can walk around with oxygen concentrators for almost their entire life.
Astronauts can spend years on a space station with a sealed manufactured atmosphere.
Are you saying that carbon dating can't be done on those people?
"the writers clearly intended to imply"
* Implying does not = absolutely clear. There is no clear indication that "Prometheus" was using carbon 14 dating as we understand it today.
* Let's put the same kind of scrutiny on some science fiction movies which you rated highly.
- "Independence Day"; what are the chances that the earth of today could understand the computer coding of a far advanced alien civilization so that a human created virus could take down the alien network? It's possible but very unlikely.
But ID is a silly film and you may just enjoy it as a popcorn movie.
- "Children of Men"; this is a serious science fiction film. It's basic premise is that all women around the world are sterile (can't have children). The cause of such a total worldwide result is never explained in the movie.
How could any disease or radiation reach every human being even in isolated parts of the world (mountain ranges, rain forests)?
What could do this?
- From a scientific view, there is only vague speculation.
http://scienceline.org/2007/02/reel-science-children-of-men/
* Giving one movie a pass ("Children of Men") and putting another movie under a microscope of scrutiny in terms of explaining its outcomes is a double standard.
Imo at least, BB -)
it is just in my opinion - imo - 🌈
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Lloyd_Lloyd
7 years ago
This calls into question your entire argument.
The film clearly states that Engineer DNA is a type of human DNA.
Is human biology known? Yes.
And other types of humans like Neanderthals have been studied in our world and the knowledge about such human variation would be much better known in a science fiction future.
True, but in the film the measurement was made before they knew this. When they find the body and use their 'carbon sampler' to estimate the time since it died, all they know is that it's a roughly humanoid alien. They don't know anything about its biochemistry or metabolism or diet or even if it accumulates carbon in its tissues in a way that's at all relevant to their technique.
The tunnels in the film were not sealed from the outside atmosphere.
These tunnels were more open to the outside air than many buildings in our world.
In our world people can spend many hours per day in almost sealed/closed air conditioned buildings with circulated air.
People in our world can walk around with oxygen concentrators for almost their entire life.
Astronauts can spend years on a space station with a sealed manufactured atmosphere.
Are you saying that carbon dating can't be done on those people?
No, I am not saying that. Whether I'm in an air-conditioned office, or doing my second job as an astronaut on the ISS, the food that I eat there (containing the C14 that I incorporate into my tissues) is representative of the Earth's atmosphere in general. So when I die and stop replenishing that C14, the carbon isotope ratio will start to change in a way that will allow future archaeologists to estimate when I last lived. That's only possible if those archaeologists can assume that in life I was in equilibrium with the atmosphere. Even if the crew of the Prometheus had access to a database of dates and C14 proportions from the army of robot archaeologists that they unleashed on the planet on arrival (they do no such thing as far as the movie suggests), that would still not help to date the remains. The air in the structure has a different composition from that of the planet; Shaw et al know this, and that fact would undermine any calibration that they had undertaken before entering the structure. In fact it would only be useful at all if they could be assured that the Engineer accumulated C14 like we do, and that it had eaten food all its life that had grown in equilibrium with the planet's atmosphere. Obviously at that point in the film they have no idea about this.
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BB-15
7 years ago
by Lloyd_Lloyd;
"True, but in the film the measurement was made before they knew this."
That is a continuity error which is minor.
Shaw eventually had the DNA information in the film but the sequence of events had things done with the Alien head before that.
Yes, the movie should have had the DNA finding first.
But if that level of nitpicking is our standard, then it should be applied to other serious science fiction films.
Comparing "Independence Day"; What are the chances of an earth hacker being able to successfully implant a computer virus in a super advanced, unknown space alien computer system? Who knows what type of code was use in such an alien system? Is it binary code?
Shouldn't the ID characters have first completely understood the central space alien code first (through extensive study from probes) before making the virus?
Accepting one continuity error and not the other is a double standard imo.
"the food that I eat (containing the C14 that I incorporate into my tissues) is representative of the Earth's atmosphere in general."
Now you move the goal posts from the tunnels having a different air mixture to what the Engineers were eating.
- How was the Engineer food produced?
Not shown in the film.
- The assumption could be made that the Engineer's food had carbon isotope levels which were represented in the moon's atmosphere.
Another way to put it; food production on LV-223 used the air from the general atmosphere on the moon.
* A serious science fiction movie is not a hard science documentary.
When examining the results in a science fiction film, the proper approach imo is to try to imagine if the result is possible.
Examples of that include the book "The Physics of Star Trek" by theoretical physicist Lawrence M. Krauss.
- The approach is not to nitpick how the science is dramatized but to examine if something can happen according to science.
"Even if the crew of the Prometheus had access to a database of dates and C14 proportions from the army of robot archaeologists that they unleashed on the planet on arrival (they do no such thing as far as the movie suggests),"
Back to your double standard with "Children of Men". Why are all women on earth sterile? Not explained in any detail. Only the result is given.
- Serious science fiction dramatizations only have to give the result. That is a basic approach of the genre.
"...that would still not help to date the remains. The air in the structure has a different composition from that of the planet;"
Contradictory argument.
1. Engineer food production is not shown in the film.
2. You imagine that the air for Engineer food production only uses air that comes from the tunnels.
3. The process of making food on LV-223 could use the air from the general atmosphere of the moon.
"In fact it would only be useful at all if they could be assured that the Engineer accumulated C14 like we do, and that it had eaten food all its life that had grown in equilibrium with the planet's atmosphere. Obviously at that point in the film they have no idea about this."
But that imo is not the proper approach in scrutinizing serious science fiction movies.
Back to "Children of Men".
- How do the characters know that all women on earth are sterile?
Maybe they have been indoctrinated with Orwellian propaganda.
The viewer does not know for certain because the audience does not see a database of every female on earth.
- How did every woman on earth become sterile?
It's a cause that is unknown according to the science of our non fiction world.
* Clearly you have a bias to giving the benefit of the doubt to "Children or Men" and nitpicking "Prometheus" by speculating circumstance which undermine the movie.
- Think I'm wrong?
1. Prove to me that "Children of Men" clearly shows that all women on earth are sterile.
Otherwise this undercuts your argument that every scientific process has to be completely shown in "Prometheus".
2. Prove to me that there is a passive (not deliberately done) process known to our science which would cause all females on earth to become sterile (without surgery) while leaving the entire population otherwise healthy.
Of course you can't.
It's science FICTION.
* Using the same standard the viewer cannot know the exact dating process used in "Prometheus".
All the viewer knows is the result.
And if the same standard is used between "Children of Men" and "Prometheus", then speculations about the films would be to help make the outcome possible.
And that would include the option that "Prometheus" uses a different, carbon dating process which is unknown to our world.
Imo at least, BB ;-)
it is just in my opinion - imo - 🌈
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Lloyd_Lloyd
7 years ago
That is a continuity error which is minor.
Shaw eventually had the DNA information in the film but the sequence of events had things done with the Alien head before that.
Yes, the movie should have had the DNA finding first.
But if that level of nitpicking is our standard, then it should be applied to other serious science fiction films.
That's more accommodating than I can be myself. The age measurement was made on the headless corpse, before they went through the door, and long before they undertook their analyses on the ship. That's not simply a continuity error; it was presumably written into the script that way.
Now you move the goal posts from the tunnels having a different air mixture to what the Engineers were eating.
- How was the Engineer food produced?
Not shown in the film.
- The assumption could be made that the Engineer's food had carbon isotope levels which were represented in the moon's atmosphere.
Another way to put it; food production on LV-223 used the air from the general atmosphere on the moon.
If you think that, I'm not sure where you imagine I must have set the goal posts before. Because we (and the Engineers, I assume) don't photosynthesize, any atmospheric carbon in our tissues must have been incorporated by eating something that photosynthesizes or eating something else that ate something that photosynthesizes. If you read half of the information that you posted up-thread (and clearly you did), then you know this. So this point has been central to the whole discussion all along. I even said in an earlier post: "They might assume that the Engineers share the atmosphere's isotope ratio up to death, but they can't know this for sure. Maybe Engineers' favourite food concentrates one isotope preferentially."
Contradictory argument.
1. Engineer food production is not shown in the film.
2. You imagine that the air for Engineer food production only uses air that comes from the tunnels.
3. The process of making food on LV-223 could use the air from the general atmosphere of the moon.
I imagine that the Engineers' food
might come from inside the structure. It might come from outside. They might have eaten takeaway exclusively from the next planet out, where the isotope ratio is entirely different. I don't know
and neither does Shaw.
Comparing "Independence Day"; What are the chances of an earth hacker being able to successfully implant a computer virus in a super advanced, unknown space alien computer system? Who knows what type of code was use in such an alien system? Is it binary code?
Shouldn't the ID characters have first completely understood the central space alien code first (through extensive study from probes) before making the virus?
Clearly you have a bias to giving the benefit of the doubt to "Children or Men" and nitpicking "Prometheus" by speculating circumstance which undermine the movie.
- Think I'm wrong?
1. Prove to me that "Children of Men" clearly shows that all women on earth are sterile.
Otherwise this undercuts your argument that every scientific process has to be completely shown in "Prometheus".
2. Prove to me that there is a passive (not deliberately done) process known to our science which would cause all females on earth to become sterile (without surgery) while leaving the entire population otherwise healthy.
Of course you can't.
It's science FICTION.
I'm not sure how you can justify this accusation of double standards. I've not posted any opinions on either of these films except for my overall ratings, and I have never explained my criteria for assigning those ratings. You are making unfounded assumptions. But since you ask...
Children of Men, Independence Day and Prometheus are very different films and prompt different expectations.
The one conceit in Children of Men, the global infertility, is not explored; rather, it is the
effect of the phenomenon on society and individuals that is the subject of the film. And on that level I think it succeeds: it is tense, gripping and thought-provoking.
Independence Day is a fairly mindless spectacle, and you're right: infecting an alien computer system with an earthly virus is absurd. And that's not the only absurdity in the film. But overall the film doesn't suffer for it because it does not take itself seriously. It is still a fun, sometimes exciting romp.
The word 'pretentious' is so often misapplied by detractors of movies that I hesitate to use it here. But I think it is absolutely appropriate for Prometheus. It is shallow and it is pretentious, and the pretense is that it is a weighty film asking profound questions about human origins, faith, and gods, when really it is rewarmed Von Daniken wrapped around a second-rate slasher movie.
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BB-15
7 years ago
to Lloyd_Lloyd; I've appreciated this cordial discussion.
To understand more where I'm coming from; I can defend certain science, tech, logic in a science fiction movie I don't like.
And I can criticize certain science, tech, logic in a SF film I do like.
I have done this several times on IMDb.
- My criteria for a SF movie flaw is; it can't be justified by the rules of the film or franchise, the information from the film makers, common tropes in the science fiction genre or behavior in our world.
That's a long list but this is because I try to give every SF film I see a fair chance. Even if I didn't like it.
- And using that criteria, what you have brought up with "Prometheus" are not serious flaws imo.
"That's not simply a continuity error;"
It is a continuity error imo. The information needed was found later in the movie.
Change the sequence of events of what the characters did and then the issue is solved.
" it was presumably written into the script that way."
It is a continuity error in the script. The dating of the head could have easily been done in the lab in the script.
- Considering how inaccurate science is portrayed in even serious SF movies and how illogical they often are, this continuity issue is a minor problem. Again, imo.
"I'm not sure where you imagine I must have set the goal posts before."
- Just mentioning kerry's comment about the tunnel atmosphere alone doesn't tell me that your argument was only about food production.
"I imagine that the Engineers' food might come from inside the structure. It might come from outside."
Finally.
In science fiction movies, the main thing about plausibility is that something is possible.
In terms of food production using the outside air, the answer is yes.
- As for the assumptions that Shaw makes, again scientists in SF movies make assumptions.
Examples of a science character assuming something in an Alien movie.
Ash assumes that the creature in "Alien" is a "perfect organism".
A non scientist in "Alien" making a scientific assumption; that the Space Jockey is fossilized.
Clear evidence that SF characters can make scientific assumptions.
"Children of Men, Independence Day and Prometheus are very different films and prompt different expectations."
At last we get to your personal taste. You can give SF films in terms of science a pass.
They prompt different expectations for you.
For me, films like "Children of Men", or even "Independence Day" can be seen through the lens of science, and could lead to the question; can the events in these films as described happen according to science and technology?
I've also looked at "Sunshine", "Interstellar" and "Gravity" that way.
And the answer often is either no or maybe or unknown.
- But for you it seems, as long as implausible scientific / technological events are not discussed, then you ignore it.
"The one conceit in Children of Men, the global infertility, is not explored;"
There is still a global conceit of almost complete human infertility which is a scientific phenomenon.
How is this conceit possible as depicted in the film?
You don't consider that question.
What you don't accept is that carbon dating is also a similar conceit in "Prometheus".
But you have a very different reaction to that conceit.
You give one conceit a pass ("Children of Men") and with another you go on a nitpick hunt claiming it must be about carbon 14 dating as known in our world when the movie does not say that.
- Your expectation and reaction is personal to you.
- I look at these SF the premises we are discussing in "Children of Men" and "Prometheus" the same.
As concepts which have plenty of ambiguity in speculative fiction.
"Independence Day is a fairly mindless spectacle, and you're right: infecting an alien computer system with an earthly virus is absurd."
That's right and you gave what you described as a mindless spectacle with an absurdity, a 9/10 rating.
That is your privilege of course and I'm in no way criticizing your rating.
Still, ID is under the umbrella of science fiction and it shows what a large audience is willing to accept in terms of the sequence of events leading to a technological success, hacking a space alien computer.
"The word 'pretentious' is so often misapplied by detractors of movies that I hesitate to use it here. But I think it is absolutely appropriate for Prometheus."
Personal taste has been the basis of your argument from the beginning.
- If only "Prometheus" had not tried to explain its science fiction like "Children of Men" or had been as absurd as "Independence Day", then maybe you would not be on a nitpick crusade with "Prometheus".
Who knows?
Many people on this board were very disappointed that "Prometheus" didn't have a simple monster hunt like "Alien".
Maybe that also bothered you.
But that is what personal taste is about.
And you obviously don't like "Prometheus".
This might surprise you, but that is fine with me.
We are all entitled to our gut reactions to any movie.
BB ;-)
PS. I noticed your comments on this "Interstellar" thread where you rightly pointed out that the Star Trek level shuttle in the film would not need a Saturn V rocket to take off from earth. In fact doing that would be a waste of resources.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0816692/board/thread/259600212?d=261677885#261677885
I wonder what your rating is for "Interstellar".
Mine is 6/10 due to several inconsistent uses of tech which can't be fixed no matter how hard I try.
it is just in my opinion - imo - 🌈
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