MovieChat Forums > Quartet (2013) Discussion > Rap/hip-hop vs. opera lecture: senseles...

Rap/hip-hop vs. opera lecture: senseless


Screenwriter Ronald Harwood reveals the unfortunate limitations of his musical culture in the scene where the character Reginald Paget teaches a rather ridiculous and unenlightening class to teenagers about rap/hip-hop music, opera music, and the supposed similarities and differences between the two. The main problem with this scene is that it involves a largely pointless apples-to-oranges comparison: rap and opera are quite different things functionally, not just stylistically. And the scene is particularly regrettable because there are good apples-to-apples comparisons between rap and classical music that almost any real opera singer, especially a British one, would know about, and that really could have shed some light on how different musicians through the ages have dealt with similar concepts.

The one classical piece above all others that Reginald should have talked about, and played examples from, is poet Edith Sitwell and composer William Walton's "entertainment" for speaker and chamber group Façade. Façade is rap music, even though parts of it were written as early as 1921, and some parts were publicly premiered as early as 1923. Other pieces of classical and semiclassical music Reginald could have mentioned are: Schoenberg's Pierrot Lunaire (1912); Stravinsky's L'histoire du soldat (1918) (those sections where the narrator speaks over music); the songs "Rock Island" and "Ya Got Trouble", and the introduction to "Seventy-Six Trombones", in Meredith Willson's 1957 musical The Music Man; those songs of Professor Higgins in Lerner and Loewe's 1956 musical My Fair Lady that are customarily partly spoken rather than sung; the speaking chorus of animals near the end of Ravel's 1925 opera L'enfant et les sortilèges; and perhaps even some examples of melodrama in the word's original sense, namely the combining of dramatic speech with background music, such as in Richard Strauss's Enoch Arden (1897).

There are probably some other significant rap-like classical pieces that I'm not aware of; I'd certainly enjoy hearing about them from other posters.

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Yes, this is indeed apples to apples stuff. There are, as you say, rap-like episodes in operatic/classical/musical music that could have been used as examples.

But what you are talking about are the exceptions. Operatic/classical/musical music is not generally like that.

So what he was comparing were essentially apples and oranges. Both sweet, juicy and satisfying in their own ways, but very very different.

The lesson wasn't about saying "Hey, these are in a way, stylistically the same!"
It was about saying "These two things are really very different ways of conveying similar intensity of feeling. Both are valid. And enjoying one doesn't preclude from enjoying the other. "


In my experience, teenagers, regardless of their musical background, can be absolutely riveted by some operatic /classical music. (The Anvil Chorus, for example) And once you have got them to love just one single piece, then you have opened the door to a much broader understanding of the whole world of music.








"great minds think differently"

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Well said Mandy.
I was a bit worried, when I saw Reg researching rap online... I started to have thoughts similar to those expressed by the OP. But then I actually saw the 'teaching' scene, and all he does is get them thinking about the emotional connections people can have with music. That's all. Reg is a good teacher.

_____________

"Maybe I should go alone"
- Quint, Jaws.

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WHO CARES? This movie wasn't about rap. The gentleman, trying to to include all of his students, had done a little briefing on the subject of rap on the Internet. He was therefore able to communicate with his student without acting snooty. To have delved deeply into "rap theory" would have been a distraction from the story. Your comment is rather senseless in its context.

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^ on the contrary, Bruce. I though Paul's was most excellent and erudite.

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Of course you did.

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It's what people do here on IMDB. They watch film to find a particular detail that, while in the context of the film is irrelevant, is so important to them that they must fine a place to rant about it.

So here we are.

Just play along.

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C'mon, it was silly. Who cold possibly think opera and hip hop are similar in any way? It was groan-inducing.

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All music is related.

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Many people find both types of music so irritating that they don't want to listen to them. So, in that way, they are similar.

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Felix, I've you describe it perfectly.

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Well it's always a million laughs when academics or artists discuss rap music's artistic merits or pat themselves on the back for liking it because, in their minds, they haven't lost touch with common folk and, heaven forbid, they aren't seen as aloof (or, gasp, racist!) by admitting they don't like it/can't relate to it.

If the writer really wanted to make a statement that meant something, he should've had Reggie go on to say that what happened to opera also happened to rap - at one time, they both were representative of real people but "rich people took over" and that was that. In the case of rap, what was once a genuine poetic expression is now so commercial and mainstream and associated with a glamourized lifestyle that discussing its validity as art (including the opera vs. rap scene we're discussing) is $#&!ing stupid. Give it time and I guarantee you that these same minds will be discussing how reality TV legitimately represents contemporary America.

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I'd rather eat my own diarrhea than listen to rap/hip-hop. And I have, too.

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I've just come across this board today, and while I can see it's not a very active one now, I just want to say that this particular thread is very informative - and a very enjoyable read to me.

I'm not knowledgeable about classical music, opera and the like, especially those from Europe but I got some sense of understanding what the OP was talking about when s/he mentioned the introduction to "Seventy-Six Trombones" (seen the movie) and Professor Higgins in My Fair Lady.


Then poster Mandyjam made the day for me with her response :
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So what he was comparing were essentially apples and oranges. Both sweet, juicy and satisfying in their own ways, but very very different.

The lesson wasn't about saying "Hey, these are in a way, stylistically the same!"
It was about saying "These two things are really very different ways of conveying similar intensity of feeling. Both are valid. And enjoying one doesn't preclude from enjoying the other.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm not even a fan of the hip-hop, rap music but at least reading the replies here, I think, will make me more tolerant when my young nephews and nieces bring those pieces to listen to in my house.

Lastly, I enjoyed viewing Quartet very much, admittedly a predictable movie, but it is so charming and filled with excellent performances that I didn't mind at all. And while I admire Amour, another movie about the elderly very much, it's good to watch something not as harrowing about the sunset years as director Haneke's Amour.

I seem to be having the luck of having three movies about old people these days, I've just seen that French movie with Jane Fonda and Geraldine Chaplin --- about oldsters who've decided to leave together instead of in retirement homes - a touching gem of a movie, it's title in English is All Together.


Truth inexorably,inscrutably seeks and reveals Itself into the Light.

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You will enjoy Mrs Henderson Presents too.

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