Is Martha retarded? - Martha Marcy May Marlene (2011) Discussion

[–] rcsc3 12 years ago

She acted like that due to anxieties and fears created by the cult, being in the cult and witnessing murder and rape affected her.

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[–] olligf 12 years ago

Thank you. This is the only valid argument.

Is this where the signature goes?

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[–] mptxyz 12 years ago

When she first came to the cult she acted like she was desperate to be accepted, she was behaving like a child. She was not very intelligent, but not stupid either. A lot of her behaviour after she left them was because she was in conflict with herself - she had rejected the cult, but sill believed a lot of the nonsense they had taught her. Her refusal to talk about it kept her stuck.

I would have found the film more satisfying if she had eventually broken free to some extent. It got a bit boring when she just remained absolutely stuck. Her sister and her husband, good people though they were, were totally out of their depth.

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[–] femaleanimefan 12 years ago

Have to admit title of this thread made me LOL. How blunt XD.

I think she was just so emotionally damaged from all the atrocity she witnessed within the cult, that normal occurrences seem foreign to her. She was weird, but not retarded. How could she understand the world if she's never even experienced it? We understand the way the world works because it is what we are brought up to think. We have psychopaths who ignore morals and challenge authority, but most people have a pretty good grasp on what's right and what's wrong. Martha was completely ignorant. It wasn't entirely her fault.

You can't trade magic like *beep* Pokemon cards! - RIP Jesus :(

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[–] weezmatical 12 years ago

OP nailed it on the head. I obviously have no idea what is really going through a person in that situations mind. That said, she only spent two years with the 'cult'! She had spent the rest of her life learning the basic guidelines of what is acceptable and what isn't. The nightmares, wetting herself, angry outbursts and such seem realistic.. but the nude swimming (she should have had enough sense to ask at least) and even more so.. the wandering in while Lucy and Ted had sex! Two years doesn't seem long enough to me to forget those huge real life ground rules. Combine that with her refusal to open up and her sister's willingness to drop questioning at the response "nothing happened" made me quite literally angry, lol. I enjoyed the movie much more than I would have guessed.. And never have I wanted to yell and shake some people into reality!! P.S. I am not an angry person, it just gave me that helpless feeling of being held down against your will, haha. Thankfully, I am not a counselor : )

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[–] gaiderdraco 12 years ago

Am I the only person here that understands what brainwashing means? Being accepted into a cult, whether for a day or a year, will brainwash those that decide to stay with the cult. The rape, drugs (yes drugs, pay attention!), killing, house invasions (all relatable to Charles Manson and his deranged family), etc have affected Martha in a way that's made her forget everything that she knew about the outside world also who she was before entering the cult.

Martha entered a cult, plain and simple. She lived there for two years, under a severe "cleansing" and brainwashing and came out of there like something similar to an alien. How she reacts to the world around her is in direct response to how she learned to act while in the cult. Hence, and title of the film: before the cult she was Martha, then she became Marcy May, and then she became a completely different person, devoid of any rational thoughts.

It's not a difficult concept to understand; I understood it within the first 15 minutes of the film. Heck, the film description on the main page tells you exactly what I just wrote.

That being said, I found the film a tad too slow. I watched it and it was decent but it could have been far more disturbing and impactful.

And to the OP: how do you watch a film and not understand what is happening? Was the film lacking explosions or giant robots? Does Michael Bay lull you to sleep each night?

D.

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[–] weezmatical 12 years ago

gaiderdraco, no need to be insulting. I am sure OP understands the concept of brainwashing. I am just having a problem finding certain things realistic. Not the psychological damage.. It is the forgetting key things such as the fact that she shouldn't lay next to her sister while she has sex. Changing the way someone thinks is obviously what brainwashing is all about. But, how exactly do you go about erasing someone's memories, even once they are away and free of any drugs, etc? She may think it is ok to be casual around siblings having sex, but to forget that her sister wouldn't be cool with that? I just find that harder to believe.

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[–] gaiderdraco 12 years ago

I don't see it as Martha forgetting things, I see it as Martha being a different person. She was taught new life lessons and living with the cult, she's become a different person. You see who she is while there and then you see who she is later at home and she seems to be a totally different person. She has a new perspective at life and needs to come back down to Earth.

Now, the actually point of the film is the fact that her sister doesn't seem to grasp the concept that there's something wrong with Martha, the fact that she's a different person now. She needs help and it comes a little later than it should. I found it a fascinating examination of the human psyche but alas, the film was too long. It could have been an hour instead of 100 minutes.

And I didn't mean to insult the OP, it just seems strange to me that anyone watching the film that doesn't pick up on the fact that Martha lived in a cult for two years is a little... deranged. Maybe the TV was on in another room, playing the film; maybe the OP dreamt that he/she saw the film...

I could go on. It seems impossible to not notice the cult brainwashing aspect of the film.

D.

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[–] leishayoung 12 years ago

I largely agree with the points you make about the film, but I felt that the psychology could have been explored more. For me, the atrocities of the cult were not impactful enough to make you feel that the extent of her mental illness is justified...in the end I just didn't care about anyone in this film enough to analyse it too much.

Without doubt the cult scenes should have been more brutal. It's hard not to think that it has been watered down to make it more palatable for the masses. However, it really is to the film's detriment because it lacks punch. When you read about life in the Manson cult it was far more depraved and sadistic. Manson was all about control through humiliation. He would literally destroy the inhibitions and morals of the people in the cult and essentially desensitise them to violence of any kind. I just felt that Hawkes didn't take it far enough (he was easily the best in the film though), but we should have seen more of his depravity or desire for total control.

The ending was a cop out and seemed tacked on just to give it an ending. I couldn't help but role my eyes when the credits started rolling and assigning this film to the 'seen it and forget it' bin.

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[–] Spellbinder888 12 years ago

WATERED DOWN???

What the hell is wrong with you, do you even have a semblence of an emotional thinking brain.

She was raped. She witnessed a savage murder (sorry, is the stabbing of an innocent man in his house not 'scary' enough for you?) She was absolutely manipulated, controlled and threatened by a sociopath.

You're the one that comes across here as a sociopath. Have you got any understanding at all what violence and abuse means?

Jeeez.....

I despair for the human race.

(Or you're just totally dumb).

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[–] leishayoung 12 years ago

Calm down Spellbinder, don't have a coronary.

I didn't suggest that what she has been through wasn't brutal, but the way it was portrayed in the movie was not brutal enough to really connect with the horror of her situation.

I knew I was going to get a response like yours by somebody who would just read the post and react to it rather than try to actually digest what I am trying to say. Admittedly I didn't expect a response quite as reactive and over-the-top as yours.

Read about the Manson cult and tell me that this film even touches on the horrors of cults. My point was that in order to feel for the character you needed to see the realities of the horror (not the sanitized Hollywood version), it wasn't brutal enough to really feel that she would be that screwed up.

There should have been far greater time spent on explaining how this cult leader got these people to believe his every word and commit murder for him. The human mind can take a beating before it starts to fall apart, and I didn't really feel that the movie explored this accurately enough.

Clearly the director was trying to show the feeling of normalcy associated with subtle mind control, but there is nothing normal or subtle about mind control. Like I said, if you read about the Manson cult, you can see how Manson ruled with an iron fist, with hallucinogens and through sadistic and depraved sex. He reduced the women down to nothing more than whores put on earth to serve men sexually and have their children. He removed their self worth so completely that they became nothing more than shells of people, completely controlled by Manson and his twisted and outrageous philosophies because that is all they had left. The Manson women were essentially stripped of their humanity and turned into robots. The men were simpletons that Manson controlled through the promise of constant sex in whatever form they chose as well as constant female attention in whatever form they chose. When they stepped out of line he had the others kill them brutally…extremely brutally. One man was chopped up alive because it was feared that he was a snitch…not proven, just feared. Horrendous!
The same can be said of Warren Jeffs and his polygamy cult; the guy is nothing short of a completely sadistic psychopath who rapes adults and children alike.

This is the reality of cults, and I don’t honestly believe that this movie explored that enough.

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[–] waltwhitmansniece 11 years ago

You want a film about Manson, go watch one, they exist. This isn't it.

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[–] erincolleen-642-265600 12 years ago

The scene with Lucy and Ted having sex was definitely an extreme illustration. But you also have to consider that even after leaving the cult, she didn't reintegrate into society at all. She went straight from living in a big house at the commune, isolated from the outside world and its social norms, into living in a big house with two people (and Ted often gone), also isolated from the outside world. Had she been into public more often, she wouldn't have been able to maintain that little bubble of totally inappropriate behavior, as we see in her meltdown at the party. Though Lucy had good intentions, her sheltering of Martha was probably counter-productive.

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[–] 12 years ago

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[–] 12 years ago

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[–] fatpie42 12 years ago

Do tell. What does "brainwashing" mean?

Being accepted into any group involves getting to know their culture and being encouraged to follow their rules. It's notable in the film that one of her problems is that "normal" cultural norms no longer make any sense to her. Why would two people live in a massive house? Why should the presence of children mean that a woman can't swim naked? Why not sit on a table and, while you are up there, why not put your feet up there too? Why shouldn't you sleep next to a couple having sex? When you think about it, there's nothing technically 'wrong' with any of this behaviour, but these are cultural norms for ordinary society. Her experience is sometimes referred to as "reverse culture shock", where you return to your original culture but find that you can no longer accept its norms anymore.

This was actually the side of the movie that I found a lot more interesting than the "ooh the cult murders people" stuff.

But you've got to watch out for the term "brainwashing". Ex-cult members, having returned to more typical cultural norms, often find it hard to understand why they acted differently before. Rather than take responsibility for their prior behaviour, they can simply say that they were "brainwashed" as a way of shifting the guilt. Now that's not to say that manipulation was not involved. Moving into any culture can involve some degree of manipulation, since all cultures have aspects that people are expected to blindly accept. And yes, cult-like scenarios involve a much greater degree of manipulation than you'd ever normally expect. But, up until the final part of the movie, there is no indication that Martha is a prisoner of the cult. She is free to leave and for a long time had chosen not to do so. Her actions within the cult were her own choice. When she feeds that girl that broth with the tablet crushed up and mixed into it, she is responsible for her actions.

The main thing I am not convinced by is the idea that she was just made to forget her life beforehand. She might have unlearnt typical cultural norms and she may have been manipulated into leaving all aspects of her old life behind, but you cannot MAKE someone forget their old life. This isn't science fiction.

How they ever got anyone into that cult is left far too open and that's the biggest gap in the story for me. How do you convince women to stay in a cult where the initiation ceremony involves them getting raped by the cult leader. That makes absolutely no sense to me and, while it appears to be central to the film, I'm not convinced that it is ever satisfactorily explained.

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[–] 12 years ago

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[–] greg-goremykin 9 years ago

You are completely off track here I'm afraid; no amount of brainwashing would account for her forgetting the rules of normal society the way she appears to have, this is more indicative of her life before joining the cult and its lack of normalcy than anything else. Pay attention yourself.

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[–] exatera 12 years ago

How about sticking the soiled dress under the mattress? That was such a nonsensical thing to do that I don't know how PTSD even comes into it.

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[–] tnewton4 12 years ago

Martha's not retarded, but she's been constantly brainwashed by a cult for the past two years straight. This happened during a time in which the human brain is going through some very radical changes.

She was conditioned to behave in a way that is very different from the world outside the cult. For instance, when she strips naked and goes swimming with seemingly no regard, she was conditioned to believe that this was normal family behavior (hence the flashback to her swimming nude with the cultists).

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[–] gaiderdraco 12 years ago

That's what I've been saying.

D.

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[–] weezmatical 12 years ago

I understand what you are saying. The brainwashing changed her way of thinking. Changed what in her mind is acceptable behavior. But two years of changing how someone thinks and what they feel DOESN'T change 20 years of unconsciously learning societies and more importantly her sisters general feelings on nudity and privacy during sex. How does one go about making someone else FORGET things like that? How her own sister she has known her whole life will feel about it. Say I became a frequenter of orgies. Say I was brainwashed (over the course of two years) into thinking orgies/incest are a basically mandatory way of life. Does it mean I FORGET that most ppl aren't cool with that? Does it mean I forget that for the vast majority of my life my sister wouldn't be ok with me climbing in next to her and her husband? No. I wouldn't forget that. I would simply feel differently about it myself. I would still have a pretty good idea where she would stand on the subject.

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[–] georgiaearl 12 years ago

Re: how could MMMM could 'forget' how to act around her sister or in 'polite society'? Explanations were either given or things were hinted at to explain questions like yours, and questions about how M. could fall so deeply and easily into a cult.

Early on when M. first comes home w/her sister it's noted that Sis. wasn't around much when M. was growing up. Sis. tries to have a discussion w/M. about this ie: 'I feel like I wasn't there for you as much as I should've been', etc., to which M. answers something like 'It's ok, you were in college'. The age gap between the sisters in noted in this discussion as part of M's reasoning for why Sis. wasn't around more to help raise her after their mother died. This helps explain why M. would have such awkward reactions to the news that S. is trying to have a baby- she's the antithesis of what M. thinks a mother should be. We're given many moments that show Sis's guilt at not having been a surrogate parent for M. This is why, when M. wants to punish Sis. for sending her 'away', to be cared for by someone else, her worst fear ie: abandonment, she says 'You're going to be a terrible mother'.

We know that their parents didn't live long. We don't know what happened to their father but since 'Aunt X' came to live w/M. when their mom died, we can assume dad either died before mom or left the family before mom died, and that would've made M. very young when she lost her father...which helps explain how M. could allow herself to be drawn in by Patrick - the powerful father figure who unconditionally and selflessly loves his brood and will never leave them or let any one of them go...

It would make some sense, esp. w/the mention of 'Aunt X.', a woman for whom both sisters have little love (this comes up when M. asks Sis. about her wedding) that M. wasn't raised in a 'normal' environment. Although it wasn't explained at length (or very well, IMO), we can assume that M. was pretty much left to fend for herself at a relatively young age, w/only an Aunt. that was maybe eccentric or cold or maybe just didn't want to be raising a young girl/teen and otherwise wasn't very involved. The rest of the timeline we get is that M. didn't go to college, so she prob. left home @ 18 and drifted around 'till she met her friend who introduced her to the cult and thus we have M. who has less than 'normal' social skills. It sounds like the most significant attention M. received in life post early childhood was at the farm w/the cult.

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[–] joviacdan 12 years ago

The problem I had was that at some moments, she was completely normal. For example. the cult teaches that men eat first, and the women eat second, but not together. She didn't seem at all confused about eating together once she got to her sister's. She clearly knew right from wrong as she wanted to leave the cult, but at the same time, wouldn't help herself by informing the police of what happened or talking to anyone about it. I agree with the poster who said it was a very frustrating film to watch. Clearly, she knew her cult lifestyle was screwed up, yet she never did a thing to try and help herself out.

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[–] georgiaearl 12 years ago

The film had a lot of flaws. It wasn't great and it wasn't as consistent as it could've been re: M's behavior. You raise some good points like the eating thing.

However, re: 'she clearly knew right from wrong as she wanted to leave the cult' I strongly disagree. She was extremely conflicted leaving the cult, and about her feelings towards the cult. She wasn't clearheaded enough to have any concrete beliefs as to whether or not what was going on in the cult was right or wrong. All she knew was that she was afraid. She was so disorganized mentally she was basically acting on instinct when we first met her. The rest of the film was an exercise in depicting PTSD and brainwashing, and showing just how unstable she was. She was nowhere near being able to do anything concrete to try to help herself out. She wasn't even sure anything bad HAD happened/that what had happened was 'bad', hence the flashbacks.

There's also the fact that she'd been brainwashed to obey Patrick completely. Her loyalties were way too conflicted to call the police and report what had happened to her and what she'd witnessed ie: the rapes, the home invasions, the murder. Plus, her understanding of right and wrong had been turned upside down. Every time something 'bad' happened, Patrick or one of the family members were right there explaining why it was ok or 'a beautiful thing', etc. Brainwashing is obviously much more complicated than that but we saw a snapshot of the process.

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[–] thenicotinefairy 12 years ago

Ok, here is my question. So you insist that abusers don't work by changing their victims' ideas of what is normal and reasonable. In that case, how do you believe that abuse happens? How is it that abusers succeed in abusing others? Or do you not believe that abuse exists at all?

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[–] Spellbinder888 12 years ago

Thank you nicotineprincess. Glad someone has been able to figure out what was an extremely easy to understand movie.

All you need is a couple of brain cells and a shred of empathy. Apparently that's out with the reach of most posters here (mostly men).

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[–] leishayoung 12 years ago

Fear, pure and simple. If someone is scared of you, you can get them to do pretty much anything for you. Read up on sexual sadists.

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[–] Dunken78 12 years ago

Brainwashing and PTSD. The below link / article discusses the mental affliction(s) Martha could be experiencing. Just thought I'd share. :)

http://www.psychologyinaction.org/2011/12/12/hauntingly-accurate-portrayals-of-severe-mental-illness-at-a-theater-near-you/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=hauntingly-accurate-portrayals-of-severe-mental-illness-at-a-theater-near-you

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[–] novimovieman 12 years ago

A good friend of mine is a professor of clinical psychology at a prestigious east coast university for over twenty five years. After watching this movie his informed opinion is that MMMM most likely had other psychological problems from childhood. Brainwashing is a long and excruciating process. Patty Hurst was kidnapped, locked in a dark closet for weeks, beaten and sexually abused. She was subjected to months of propaganda before finally giving in and joining her captors. There was little evidence of trauma with MMMM. Her rape was done while she was drugged and she admitted remembering little. She left because her boyfriend lied to her. She only passively observed the murder. We saw no pervasive public nudity except a nude swim she participated in and a romp in a bedroom with a few friends fooling around nearby. Heck we've all done that. MMMM was probably wacky from the get go.
On another note, the cult leader's explanation of why death was the ultimate expression of love was flawed. He said that while in a state of fear your state of awareness is at its highest. Having spent some thirty years studying the martial arts I can tell you that one of the most necessary skills a fighter learns is to overcome the effects of fear. Fear causes most people to do the opposite of what Patrick proclaimed, become totally unaware of their environment. In other words they blank out. The rest of his explanation was a bunch of mumbo jumbo as well. Then again most cult leaders are delusional anyway.

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[–] althea52 12 years ago

That speech about fear is actually almost words for words taken from Charles Manson. I recommend you read "Helter Skelter" by Vincent Bugliosi.

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[–] ghbbrown-1 12 years ago

I don't think the shared sex was a one-time "romp". C. Manson used group sex as a way to integrate his Family, mixing pleasure with control. HE was the one saying when and where it could happen. We see one bit but it might have been as regular as weeding the garden among Patrick's group.

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[–] dbowen-3 12 years ago

classic symptoms of a nervous breakdown, depression, as PSTD.

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[–] masuka-fan 12 years ago

Nude swimming is normal family behaviour in a lot of communities, even in the U.S. And why not? That was the least weird thing that she did.

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[–] Buff70 12 years ago

jimparrett -- did it occur to you that Martha's behavior is the result of her post-traumatic stress disorder aka -- ptsd.

She does seem like a retard, but she isn't.
She is lost, confused, and traumatised. This is ptsd. ex: vietnam soldiers, iraq soldiers, etc ....

She needs to be admitted to a psych ward.

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[–] turkeyprophet 12 years ago

"she is merely a child in a woman's body."

I know the OP was trying to be a cynical but I kinda get the feeling that was a point they were making.

She clearly isn't much more than a child. In the film she would have basically gone to live on this cult instead of going to college.

She was a lost kid and I think that was an important part of the film.

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[–] 12 years ago

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[–] usernumber655321 12 years ago

Thank you bluesdoctor. I was waiting for someone to speak honestly. This film is but a pretender. It tries so hard to not try hard that it is hard to watch. I wasn't bothered so much because it is predictably and cheaply "dark", but more because the director seems to actually believe he (?) is onto something or other in general, and also the realism issues other posters have brought up in an overly coddling way.

Sorry folks, but you don't have to like every indie movie that gets decent reviews from pretentious doofus critics to 'get it' in general. Some movies are hard to like because they ask hard questions, and some movies are hard to like because they aren't good.

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[–] 12 years ago

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[–] Eve_of_Destruction 12 years ago

Hardware Store owner would be perfect for him. He was gross and anyone who would follow that guy would be insane.

Cici: "Oh, I'm sorry my bad, I thought you were someone else".
Ghost Face: "That's OK, I am"

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[–] greg-goremykin 9 years ago

This comment shows how completely over both of your heads this film went; the draw to the cult was not the leader, it was the pseudo-family experience he'd created, he as the father, etc. Like an earlier post said, all of this is taken almost directly from the Manson case, it is spelled out in detail in Helter Skelter, there is no way in hell that the director didn't use it as direct source material.

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