MovieChat Forums > The Night Manager (2016) Discussion > No more Fräulein - BIG GOOF

No more Fräulein - BIG GOOF


In the Zermatt hotel Pine keeps addressing the female hotel clerk as Fräulein. In the 1990s the German language authorities got rid of that assignation. It only exists in old films and books. It is not used anymore. It is considered improper and impolite. In real life the female clerk would have taken him down a peg or two, and sued him for sexual harassment after having slapped him silly. The hotel scenes took place in 2015, not 1915.

Stupid tv writers and producers don't do proper research.

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Maybe the Swiss view this differently.

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No. I am in Switzerland. Das Wort 'Fräulein' ist verboten. Danke vielmal. High German is one of the four national languages, and adheres to the rules of the language. Even the Swiss-German dialects do not use the word anymore.

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So what is said? Herr und Frau einmal?


"If you're laughing, I defy you to be afraid"

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Yes. He correctly calls his boss Herr Strippli. He should address the woman as Frau Vipp, even if she is not married, or if he doesn't know if she is married. There is no comparable German word for Ms., so Frau is always used and never Fräulein, which is considered improper, impolite, and insulting. The rule is also the same for the written word, especially in the salutation in a letter. It just isn't used anymore.

Also, the credits spell Fräulein incorrectly.

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I'm German, I live in Austria, I'm a woman and a feminist. Honestly, calm down. It's a minor thing. Yes, they didn't do their research properly, but it's nothing to get that angry about, especially since they didn't make her an "it" as would have been proper when "Fräulein" was still used in German (as in: "Das Fräulein hat seine - statt 'ihre' - Geldbörse zu Hause vergessen.)
Anyway, it's not that big of a deal and certainly not the biggest flaw of the series.

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You may think it's a minor thing, but I was once raked over the coals for referring to a German woman as "Fräulein." I had learned German in the '60s and did not know of the change. I learned never to make that mistake again.

"I used to know things. Now I have to remember them."

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Fancy being hauled over the coals for such a minor indiscretion. You should of been excused as it's not your first language and at worst mildly rebuked or corrected.
People seem to think they have the right to take offence at anything now days.
Oversensitivity.....

if I seem a little strange, that's because I am.......

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They do not call them femi*nazis* for nothing ...

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" You should OF been excused ..." / " ... at anything NOW days"? Apparently it is not only the German language that is not being used correctly!

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Really?
I am German and while "Fräulein" is definitely old-fashioned and not used anymore,
I would never get angry at a somebody calling me "Fräulein" (especially if German is not their first language).
Sorry to hear you were raked over the coals for this (in my eyes minor) mistake! 

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The other German posters are saying it wouldn't cause a big offense so, I believe them. Honestly, I suspect the person who reprimanded you just didn't like you so they made a big deal about the faux-pas.

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It can be used ironically, playfully and informally, or in an affectionately admonishing way (e.g. parents to daughter one hears all the time in modern fiction, sort of like "young lady"). No problem there. Only when it is used seriously and as a regular form it is jarring.
Depends on context, and one has to be aware of it being old-fashioned.

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What does it mean if it's so insulting?

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>Das Wort 'Fräulein' ist verboten

Verboten?
I heard Swiss are strict with enforcing the laws and regulations, but do they really ban words?

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You should edit that scene to your standards then rewatch it over and over and over until it is good for yourself.

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Sue him for sexual harassment over "Fräulein"? I think not. But he could have called the police if she slapped him...
Maybe she likes to be addressed that way? I would find it a bit strange maybe but I certainly wouldn't go ballistic over it, especially if a foreigner is using it...

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I am not going to pretend to know the ins and outs of German or Swiss culture, but she appeared to be an older woman. Perhaps the term was not as big a deal to her as it would be to someone younger. Don't know. It's a error. Every film and TV show has them.

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Can someone explain why it is considered rude?

Definition is young unmarried woman so why this is considered inappropriate

Is it me or feminists are going over board and exaggerate things.

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Languages change for whatever reason over time. Even English. Fräulein is just not acceptable anymore. If they ever invent a comparable word for Ms. then they'll probably switch to that if people get used to it. It's just the way it is.

In Germany, as in many other countries, for example France, there are official language authorities.

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Languages change but unlike France there is no normative language institution in Germany. The Duden Gesellschaft is purely descriptive. Working on an empirical base of how often a new word was used by certain (different) sources (like newspaper articles, mentions on radio and TV and lately social media as well). If this new word hits the mark it gets included in the next Duden. (This is the shortened version of the process actually it is a bit more complex.)

I agree that Fräulein is rather obsolete, though I would never bite someons head off for it. Though someone as correct and "British" as Pine would never make this mistake. He would correctly use Frau.

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Ever since we lost visual signals for the marital status of a person (like our Middle European version of the hijab, the Kopftuch or certain other parts of our clothes that indicate social status like apron colour, hairdo etc) we women tend to prefer a neutral address, which would be Frau. Fräulein, especially since it is grammatically bound to a neutral voice (it) is a tat disrespectful and condescending.

Or in other words: there are no visible signs nowadays to discern if a person of either sex is married or in a legal (same sex or different sex) partnership or living unmarried with another person, seeing someone on a loose or regular base or even interested in partnership in either way. So how would you like to discern if this "young woman" in front of you is married (defined by her association with a man) or unmarried and therefore deemed to be titled as Fräulein? And how old does a woman have to be to loose the appellation "young woman"? Under twenty? Over? Over thirty? And how do you know how old she is? Do you ask? Or just assume?

You see, the definition of Fräulein is based in a rather strict social system which a) deemed women to be less than man (there is no male equivalent for Fräulein) and b) which does not exist any longer. We are quite enlightened, thank you very much, and don't need this kind of address any longer. It is obsolete.

Which, by the way, happened over time, by itself, through people and not an institution.

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Fräulein, especially since it is grammatically bound to a neutral voice (it) is a tat disrespectful and condescending.

The same can be said of the word "Mädchen" but it is still used, is it not? I once had a German teacher who said she had tried using "die Junge" for "girl" but all that did was confuse people.

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In my old German math book (section on conics) there were two consecutive problems. One referred to "ein Mädchen (kleine Made)" and the other to "ein Mädchen (keine Made)". The joke being that Mädchen even though it normally means "girl" can also be grammatically correct diminutive of "Made" or a maggot. So the problems clarified if it was a "small maggot" or "not a maggot", the difference between the two only being the letter "l".

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Why do women wish to hide their marital status?

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I'd say it would translate/compare to calling an adult man "little man".

A hotelier or "night manager" of cause wouldn't use "Fräulein".

It's not a bad or mean word by intent, it just has no place where equal rights are supposed to be in effect.

Italians for example still use the term signorina, but it hasn't the "little/lesser" meaning of Fräulein.

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Italians for example still use the term signorina, but it hasn't the "little/lesser" meaning of Fräulein.


The ending -ina implies a diminutive (Signora: lady, Signorina: little lady), so yes it does. Same as the Spanish señora/señorita and French madame/mademoiselle. I don't know why it's such an issue with German, but maybe the gender assignation (fräulein being neuter or "it") might be part of why it's seen as particularly demeaning in that language. In the romance languages there's no such thing as neutral gender nouns, so signorina, señorita, and mademoiselle are all feminine gender nouns.

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I live in Vienna, am a native German speaker and I have never ever (!) got the impression, that calling a young unmarried woman "Fräulein" would be rude in ANY way. In Vienna I hear it quite often (mostly for teenage girls, not adult women) in a very charming way, like a waiter asking the "Young" "Fräulein" what she would like to order. Yes, it is not used a lot anymore but I can't think of any of my female friends who would take it as an insult. Never even crossed my mind. Reading all these comments I was "what the *beep* are they talking about" the whole time.

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Finally someone with a bit of sense. I, too, am German, although I've lived abroad for the last 30 years. Until I saw this thread I would never have considered "Fräulein" to be rude in any way, and actually I still don't. I looked it up in the "Duden" and although it states that the word has fallen out of fashion and "Frau" should be used, nowhere does it say that "Fräulein" is forbidden to be used.

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Political correctness makes some people goofy...couldn't the person who used FRAULEIN, especially if it wasn't their first language, simply be told politely that that word is verbotten in the new Germany

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Yes, PC can certainly make some people VERY goofy. For example; the OP - clearly a white knight sjw mangina - is obviously very "triggered" by the abusive and demeaning term Fräulein when used by the oppressive cis white patriarchal male Jonathan Pine (who happens to be a fictional character, although he is written by a real life oppressive cis white patriarchal male John Le Carré who should obviously be slapped in the face and arrested for sexual assault, right?). Yes, THAT incident is worthy of a mention as an example of how women are not treated as equals and the fact that use of the term has been discontinued is a HUGE victory in the struggle for equality.

Meanwhile, the torture, rape and murder of Sophia and the torture and rape of Jed, well. Nary a peep. But what do you expect? OP is probably one of the same clear headed, logically thinking, rationally minded people who thought letting millions of north african males (i.e. the REAL "rape culture" that OP probably screams about in his many blogs and youtube videos) into Germany, to abuse and rape German women - and then blame it on the women who are obviously provoking their attackers - OP probably thought this was a good idea. Oh, but wait! I bet at least some of those rapists were using the term Fräulein while attacking a woman. GO GET 'EM, OP!

"If you're waiting for a woman to make up her mind, you may have a long wait." Preacher

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You would be completely right about Germany where nobody uses it anymore
but in Switzerland in a very conservative and expensive Hotel it does not seem that much out of place.
Swiss people say many things differently. Im a native speaker from Germany btw.

the term signorina, but it hasn't the "little/lesser" meaning of Fräulein.

Thats exactly what it means.

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