[source: Skeptics Annotated Bible]
From Revelation:
1:7. "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him." This could only happen on a flat earth.
1:16. Jesus holds seven stars in his hand. Of course, it is possible that this is metaphorical. Perhaps. But it is clear from other verses (6:13, 8:10, 12:4) that John thought of stars as being small, perhaps even small enough for Jesus to hold in his hand.
6:13. "And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth...." To John, the stars are just little lights a few miles away that can easily fall to the earth.
7:1. John "saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth." Well, I guess that settles it: the earth is flat and square-shaped, or at least quadrilateral in shape.
8:10. "And there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters." In the bible, stars are just little lights that can fall to the ground from the sky.
9:1. "I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth."
12:4. The dragon's tail smacks down to earth one third of the stars. To the author of Revelation, the stars are just little lights that can fall to the ground from the sky.
Slightly off-topic, but the following absurdities can be found in Genesis:
The Genesis 1 creation account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science. In Genesis, the earth is created before light and stars, birds and whales before reptiles and insects, and flowering plants before any animals. The order of events known from science is just the opposite.
God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). And how could there be "the evening and the morning" on the first day if there was no sun to mark them?
God spends one-sixth of his entire creative effort (the second day) working on a solid firmament. This strange structure, which God calls heaven, is intended to separate the higher waters from the lower waters.
Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes.
God lets "the earth bring forth" the plants, rather than creating them directly. Maybe Genesis is not so anti-evolution after all. 1:11.
In an apparent endorsement of astrology, God places the sun, moon, and stars in the firmament so that they can be used "for signs". This, of course, is exactly what astrologers do: read "the signs" in the Zodiac in an effort to predict what will happen on Earth. 1:14
God makes two lights: "the greater light [the sun] to rule the day, and the lesser light [the moon] to rule the night." But the moon is not a light, but only reflects light from the sun. And why, if God made the moon to "rule the night", does it spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky? 1:16
"He made the stars also." God spends a day making light (before making the stars) and separating light from darkness; then, at the end of a hard day's work, and almost as an afterthought, he makes the trillions of stars. 1:16
"And God set them [the stars] in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth." 1:17
In verse 11, God "let the earth bring forth" the plants. Now he has the earth "bring forth" the animals as well. So maybe the creationists have it all wrong. Maybe God created livings things through the process of evolution. 1:24
God makes the animals and parades them before Adam to see if any would strike his fancy. But none seem to have what it takes to please him. (Although he was tempted to go for the sheep.) After making the animals, God has Adam name them all. The naming of several million species must have kept Adam busy for a while. 2:18-20
God decides to kill all living things because the human imagination is evil. Later (8:21), after he kills everything, he promises never to do it again because the human imagination is evil. Go figure. 6:5
"Behold, I will destroy them with the earth."
God was angry because "the earth was filled with violence." So he killed every living thing to make the world less violent. 6:11-13
"Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens."
How did Noah know which animals were "clean" and "unclean" to God? (It wasn't defined until Leviticus was written.) 7:2
The flood covered the highest mountain tops (Mount Everest?) with fifteen cubits to spare. 7:20
Noah sends a dove out to see if there was any dry land. But the dove returns without finding any. Then, just seven days later, the dove goes out again and returns with an olive leaf. But how could an olive tree survive the flood? And if any seeds happened to survive, they certainly wouldn't germinate and grow leaves within a seven day period. 8:8-11
When the animals left the ark, what would they have eaten? There would have been no plants after the ground had been submerged for nearly a year. What would the carnivores have eaten? Whatever prey they ate would have gone extinct. And how did the New World primates or the Australian marsupials find their way back after the flood subsided? 8:19
"And the Lord smelled a sweet savor."
Noah kills the "clean beasts" and burns their dead bodies for God. According to 7:8 this would have caused the extinction of all "clean" animals since only two of each were taken onto the ark. "And the Lord smelled a sweet savor." After this God "said in his heart" that he'd never do it again because "man's heart is evil from his youth." So God killed all living things (6:5) because humans are evil, and then promises not to do it again (8:21) because humans are evil. The mind of God is a frightening thing. 8:20-21
"Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth." Although this would have been good advice for the mythical Noah, it is deadly advice for humankind as a whole. Overpopulation is one of our greatest problems, yet there is nothing in the bible to address it. 9:1
According to this verse, all animals fear humans. Although it is true that many do, it is also true that some do not. Sharks and grizzly bears, for example, are generally much less afraid of us than we are of them. 9:2
"Into your hand are they (the animals) delivered."
God gave the animals to humans, and they can do whatever they please with them. This verse has been used by bible believers to justify all kinds of cruelty to animals and environmental destruction. 9:2
God is rightly filled with remorse for having killed his creatures. He even puts the rainbow in the sky to remind himself of his promise to the animals not to do it again. He makes a deal with the animals, promising never to drown them all again. He even puts the rainbow in the sky so that whenever he sees it, it will remind him of his promise so that he won't be tempted to do it again. (Every time God sees the rainbow he says to himself: "Oh, yeah.... That's right. I promised not to drown the animals again. I guess I'll have to find something else to do.")But rainbows are caused by the nature of light, the refractive index of water, and the shape of raindrops. There were rainbows billions of years before humans existed. 9:9-13
Jacob displays his (and God's) knowledge of biology by having goats copulate while looking at streaked rods. The result is streaked baby goats. 30:37-39
From Isaiah:
God will gather up the people of Judea "from the four corners of the earth." In the Bible's view, the earth is flat with four corners. 11:12
According to the Bible, the moon produces its own light and the earth does not move. 13:10
When God gets really angry, he causes earthquakes. 13:13
God will turn the [flat?] earth upside down, knock it off of its foundations, and then shake and bake it until it "reels to and fro like a drunkard." 24:1, 18-20
Natural disasters (earthquakes, storms, fires, tsunamis) are caused by, and are a sign of, God's wrath. 29:7
The light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold." Well, this is one prophecy that will never come true. Since the moon has no light of its own, but only reflects that of the sun, it could never shine like the sun. And the sun will not, at least not while there are humans to see it, shine 7 times as bright as it does now. 30:26
"The host of heaven shall be dissolved ... and ... shall fall down."
The stars will dissolve and fall from the sky. 34:4
The earth is a flat disc that God looks down upon from his throne in heaven. 40:22
"Neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee." Of course the moon doesn't give off light, but only reflects the light from the sun. 60:19
Immortal worms: "Their worm shall not die" 66:24
From the Gospel of Matthew, with corresponding passages in Mark and Luke:
The devil kidnaps Jesus and takes him up to the top of the temple, and then to the top of "an exceedingly high mountain," high enough to see "all the kingdoms of the world." I guess the earth was flat in those days. 4:8
"Behold the fowls of the air...." Jesus says that God feeds them. But, if so, he does one hell of a lousy job at it. Most birds die before leaving the nest, and the few who manage to fly soon die painful deaths of starvation, predation, or disease. If God is caring for them, pray that he stays away from you. 6:26
"Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?"
In the Bible, people think with their hearts not their heads. 9:4
"The moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven." Apparently, Jesus believed that the moon produces its own light, and that the stars are lights held in place by a firmament only a few miles above our heads. 24:29
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mypcforums
14 years ago
I didn't read your entire post because you gave your own interpretation of the meaning of the scriptures which are completely off.
Just as an example:
'"The moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven." Apparently, Jesus believed that the moon produces its own light, and that the stars are lights held in place by a firmament only a few miles above our heads. 24:29'
This scripture is speaking about eclipses and falling stars, which are common, but they will happen more often just prior to Jesus' return and on Jewish feast days. They are two things to look for that will be signs to His saints that He will soon be returning so that his elect will not be deceived by the false messiah. Check out the partial and full solar and lunar eclipses for the years 2008 through 2015:
• Av 1 August 1, 2008
• Av 1 July 22, 2009
• Av 1 July 11, 2010
• Passover April 15, 2014
• Feast of Tabernacles October 8, 2014
• Passover April 4, 2015
• Feast of Tabernacles September 28, 2015
• Adar 29/Nisan March 20, 2015
• Feast of Trumpets September 13, 2015
This phenomenon is extremely rare, for this pattern of eclipses to fall on both Passover and Sukkot in two years in a row, and for a solar eclipse to occur on important Holy Days in the same year (2015).
It is a rare occurrence for four lunar cycles to occur on successive Passover and Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkot) observances. It will not happen again for hundreds of years.
There will be three SOLAR eclipses in a row, in 2008, 2009, and 2010, all on the date of the first of Av, in the middle of mourning and lamentation, three years in a row!
The religious year will begin with the total solar eclipse, two weeks later a total lunar eclipse on Passover, and then the civil year will begin with the solar eclipse followed two weeks later by another total blood red moon on the Feast of Succoth all in 2015.If the false messiah doesn't appear sometime within the next few years, it will be hundreds of years before the solar and lunar eclipses line up again so exactly on Jewish holy observance days.
There are no atheists in hell.
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killdawabbittn
14 years ago
Wow. You've thought this through haven't you? Long thoughtful post.
Anyway. No one believed in a flat earth back then. Haven't you forgotten TV and modern global communication? But let's say all the power is knocked out. Still we have to remember that 'every' and 'all' have two qualifiers depending on the context. They can mean 'every/all' without exception or 'every/all' without distinction.
'Stars' can refer to any bright light in the sky. Just like the biblical word 'fowl' can include all flying creatures like a bat for example.
The Skeptic's Annotated Bible is ridiculous in its arbitrary definitions. Rigid definitions you wouldn't use in any other area of literature.
I wish I had more time to discuss the rest of your post. But it's silly and evinces a mind that is already made up.
Besides, belief in Jesus Christ is a revelation from Him. Many people are intentionally blinded. I hope you won't be one of them.
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jmarkoff2
14 years ago
Saying that the Bible doesn't literally mean what it says is backtracking, just like when Nostradamus' vague garblings can be reinterpreted to refer to anything that comes to pass ("one side will overcome the other," "this ecological misfortune will end eventually", "some big building will be destroyed"). All the Bible's "prophecies" are as vague as Sybil Trelawney, or else are isolated successes among seas of failure (see Isaiah 7 and Micah 2). Why would God not write specific, unambiguous wording that could not be mistaken for its meaning? It should be not just something that was not yet arrived, but something so counter-intuitive that the odds against guessing at it correctly would be staggering. And there must be independent verification that the piece of knowledge was written in texts that existed well before it actually came to pass.
Theologians are notorious for "ad hoc" explain-aways. Jesus said that his "return" would be in the generation that saw his original coming (and that the same priest would see him on the clouds), but that did not happen, so it has to be that "he returned spiritually to a spiritual kingdom." Jesus promised that prayers would be granted, but they aren't (Please, God, let me fly like Superman just long enough to save those little children from a burning apartment roof!), so there has to be an explanation that Jesus meant "only when it is in sync with what would naturally happen anyway," which "the people of the time would have understood unsaid." The Levitican death penalties for victimless peccadilli have to be explained as "that's the Old Testament which doesn't apply now that we have the New one, but parts of it do apply, and you take it on faith which..."
If the Bible is supposed to tell us God's will, why is it so ambiguous as to what the "will" is? During the Civil War, as an example, both "Americas" had favorite Bible passages to prove that they were doing what God wanted. There are plenty of pro-slavery verses that Jefferson Davis' gang trumpeted gleefully, but also verses that can be twisted to support the Emancipation cause. There is no Bible verse, nor any gentile philosopher of the ancients, that says "Slavery is immoral, free all the slaves," because that was unthinkable for the economy. It is now thinkable only because machines have replaced slaves.
Why is the Bible full of pointless anecdotes about ancient genealogies and battle numbers? What do these have with knowing what God wants?
What do "TV and modern global communications" have to do with ancient writings when the writer couldn't have conceived of their existence? There is no indication of modern technology or knowledge of Australia & South America in Revelation, ergo my thesis that it is a story, which never came to pass, about the Roman Empire in the 1st century.
This is what most would admit to be evidence, as stated in:
http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/theistguide.html
Even minor but objectively verifiable miracles would do, especially if they could be invoked by prayer. If a hospital did a double-blind study to determine if intercessory prayer helps the sick, and it was discovered that only the patients prayed for by members of a certain religion experienced a dramatic, statistically significant increase in recovery rate, and this result could be repeated and confirmed, I would convert. This one shouldn't be so hard, especially for the Christians - after all, Jesus told them that they would be able to work miracles through prayer!
...
I'll be happy to believe in God if he tells me to in person, as long as he does it in such a way that I could be sure that it was not a hallucination (for example, in the presence of multiple reliable witnesses, none of which are in a highly emotional or otherwise altered state). Where are the voices speaking out of burning bushes, or out of thin air when people get baptized? In Old Testament times, Moses saw God so often that he knew him on a first-name basis. Why doesn't this happen any more today?
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killdawabbittn
14 years ago
Have it your way. And have a good day!
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WVfilmfem
14 years ago
I just finished watching this film. It's available on Netflix instant-view.
I'm dismayed by what I saw/heard. I've also just read thru the responses in this thread, and it's the same stuff. There is no intelligent dialogue because the "Christians" who believe in the Rapture have blinders on to any other philosophy. I suspect this is the same bunch who call themselves The Tea Party.
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mypcforums
14 years ago
jmarkoff2:
You're trying to pigeonhole God. He doesn't work like that. We have to meet his requirements, not the other way around. God created us so that He could walk with us and talk with us in the cool of the garden, but man sinned and separated us from God so God created a way for us to return to Him. That, simplistically, is what everything is all about.
God's in charge and laid down the rules: In order to know God, we must meet Him in the spirit through Jesus. Any other way is like a thief trying to climb over the fence instead of entering through the gate. Man doesn't like to be told what to do, man wants to do things his own way. We demand things of God and we give Him ultimatums. We ask why God doesn't do things this way instead of that way and why doesn't He do things the way we want them to be done. We need to remember when we were growing up, how often we were able to tell our parents how things were going to be done in our homes, the way that we wanted them done and how did that worked out for us if you did. Our parents set us straight and got us to do what they wanted us to do most of the time because they felt that they knew better than us, because they loved us and because they wanted to take good care of us. God expects the same from us. He is our Father. We need to do what He wants us to do and the way He wants us to do them because He loves us, knows much better than we do and wants to take good care of us. He knows that we see only an infintesimal part of the whole picture. (Isaiah 55:8-9) "'For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,' declares the LORD. 'As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.'" What He wants us to do is spelled out in the bible. He gave us the written word through which He explains everything that He wants us to know and gives all His reasons for wanting it so. We can either accept or reject this.
God doesn't want us to be spiritually blind but most times we are becuase we don't seek God the way we should. However, the faith that God wants us to have is not blind faith but full of the knowledge of Him. (Romans 10:17) "Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ." Knowing God's word is key to faith in Him, the reason why God will make sure that everyone hears his word prior to Jesus' return. We can either accept or reject this.
People ask why God doesn't reveal Himself to us. He says that He has, in His creation. (Romans 1:20) "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Atheists refuse to accept this. They rather believe that a big bang started it all (or believe some other hypothesis) and the millions of life forms that are on earth.
God says, (Matt 6:33-34) "seek first God's kingdom and His righteousness and all things shall be added onto you." People don't first seek the kingdom of God and His righteousness but want all things to be added unto them. People demand God to tell them why he hasn't answered their prayers or why He doesn't perform a miracle for them. God says (through David, Psalm 106:7), "they gave no thought to your miracles; they did not remember your many kindnesses." Many people don't notice or remember the miracles that God has performed in their lives or His kindnesses that He continually shows toward them. We can either accept or reject this.
(Matt 7:7-11) "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?" When people ask, seek and knock, they need to first go in prayer to see if it's God's will, with an open heart and a desire to know what He has to say. This is hard because we want what we want. Jesus said, (Luke22:42) "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." God won't give His children something that is no good for their walk with Him, He won't show them something that will confuse their walk with Him, and he won't open a door that will lead them away from Him. We can either accept or reject this. We might think that what we ask for, look for or the way we want to go will not hurt us spiritually but He knows and that's where faith enters the picture. Sometimes (or maybe even oftentimes) God's answers to our prayers is "No." We don't like that answer so we say that God didn't answer our prayers but what really happened is that we didn't want to hear or accept God's answer to our prayers. As a child, I had an enormous sweet tooth that has lasted to this day. I didn't like food so I prayed that it would taste like candy but it never did. When someone I loved very much died, I prayed for God's comfort and my cup was overrun with it.
A rapture of the saints, is not scriptural. The book of Revelations says that Jesus won't return to raise His saints until after the seals have been broken, after the four horsemen, after the bowls have been poured out, and after the last trumpet. He will then return on His white horse, the second white horse.
There are no "pointless anecdotes about ancient genealogies and battle numbers." In these scriptures, God explains things to people, how things became what they did and His reasons. Some people want and need that exact and complete knowledge for their walk with the Lord, all need to see and understand what God has done and why He did what He did. I and other believers accept that the information He provided is fact and has brought us to where we are today. God wiped certain peoples from the face of the earth. In Noah's time, except for Noah and his family, all had the blood from the joining of humans and angels, which was evil. In Sodom and Gammorah, God found all to be evil except Lot and his family. God also wanted to give us Jesus' genealogy. Without the "ancient genealogies and battle numbers" we wouldn't have this kind of information. God shows us that He is serious about wiping out evil, humans and angels alike, individually and in numbers, and His gift of salvation. God gave us free will. He didn't create us evil but some choose evil.
There are no atheists in hell.
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jmarkoff2
14 years ago
It's hard to meet God's requirements simply because I don't know what they are. There are so many texts that claim to be God's will, and so many different ways of interpreting each text, that one can only play shell-game and hope for a lucky strike. One can't obey all these versions, as a capital sin in one may be a moral requirement in another. What if we picked the wrong religion?, asked Homer Simpson. Each time we go to church, we're making God madder and madder!
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mypcforums
14 years ago
I'm not religious, I believe in God and I read God's word. I'll listen to any preacher, regardless of religious affiliation but I know what I believe and I pray that I won't be deceived.
Since I wanted to find Him, Jesus made Himself known to me.
God's requirements are in Bible. Many people go to church and bible studies to learn what He has to say to us and there are also a various assortment of study bibles/books that explain biblical teachings. It's overwhelming at first but joyous and it becomes easier, similar to learning to speak another language. The more it's heard and spoken, the easier it is.
My God's names are Johovah/Yaweh, depending on the language spoken (I'm not a Jehovah's Witness). He doesn't get mad at us when we make mistakes. He's happy when people seek Him and He'll always set us on the spiritual course He's chosen for us. It's God's desire that all come to know Him but He knows that He will lose some because He gave us free will.
There are no atheists in hell.
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jmarkoff2
14 years ago
It's hard to take the Bible seriously when it has passages like these:
Judges 4, Genesis 19, Genesis 38, Judges 3, Judges 19, Joshua 10, 1 Samuel 31, Numbers 31, Deuteronomy 25. What "rules and requirements" can we find in here? We have anecdotes about a woman killing an enemy general with a tent peg, a man cutting up his concubine and mailing her body parts around, and Moses telling his soldiers "kill everyone, but save the virgins for yourselves". While these may be the bases for someone's Hannibal Lecter-style novel, how are they relevant to our lives? How can we "obey" an anecdote?
David & Goliath, Jonah's fish, Daniel's lions, how can we obey these? If a big bully is threatening the town, I suppose we can "obey" the first story by finding rocks to throw at his head, but that's not so much wisdom as common sense.
In a somewhat more subtle example, look at 1 Kings 8, Psalm 89, and Acts 10: how are these relevant?
There are a few Bible books that could be construed as "rules of living," but they have great flaws. Look at Leviticus 20. It prescribes the death penalty for homoseuxality, cursing father or mother, adultery, which seemingly describes half the USA population. Exodus 21, which in context is part of the supposed God-law, shows that God is comfortable with, and does not oppose, the owning of slaves, the branding of slaves, and the wholesale beating of slaves. 1 Timothy 2 tramples on women's rights, and the following verses have equally unpleasant pronouncements: Deuteronomy 25:11-12, Genesis 38:8-10, Deuteronomy 21:18-21, Deuteronomy 20:10-18, Exodus 35:2, Leviticus 20:13, Isaiah 13:13-16, Exodus 21:20-21, Numbers 31:14-18, 1 Timothy 2:11-12, Colossians 3:22-23, Luke 14:26, Deuteronomy 22:13-21, Isaiah 40:8.
Leviticus 21 has a passage where God makes cruel laws and disabled people.
If an omniscient, sensible God wrote the Bible, shouldn't it leave us with a sense of wonder and amazement, stunning us with its brilliance, clarity and wisdom? Wouldn't it intoxicate us with its incredible prose and its spectacular insight, telling us things that scientists have not even discovered yet?
And yet, look at the verses mentioned so far. They seem like nonsense, don't they?
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mypcforums
14 years ago
I answered very similar questions once before in another post. You're purposely not looking for the meaning in the scriptures but trying to insult Jehovah (I'm not a Jehoval's Witness). God doesn't waste His breath with stories nor does He need to amaze us or proove Himself. All the explanations needed are in the bible.
There are no atheists in hell.
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TheBeardedWonder
14 years ago
"You're trying to pigeonhole God. He doesn't work like that. We have to meet his requirements, not the other way around. God created us so that He could walk with us and talk with us in the cool of the garden, but man sinned and separated us from God so God created a way for us to return to Him. That, simplistically, is what everything is all about."
-And the only way to return is to worship him? Sorry, but that's just silly in my opinion. Why would God be some petty jerk who makes us prove ourselves before we can be happy with him?
Pettiness, jealousy and grudge holding for an 'original sin' are all HUMAN attributes. Which God would obviously be above. If he loved us, he wouldn't care if we worshiped him or someone/something else. As I said, he's not a petty old man on a cloud judging and waiting to spank us when we mess up. Having some arbitrary 'high point' we have to hit before we're good enough to be with him makes NO SENSE.
The whole thing is flawed from the ground up at that point. But hey, if it makes you a better person through it, then have at it...
"Look, Hank. Have you ever seen such a beautifully punted baby?" - King of the Hill
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mypcforums
14 years ago
The worshipping is for us, dimwit, not Him.
There are no atheists in hell.
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jmarkoff2
14 years ago
Scientific inaccuracies and other internal errors prove the Bible to be a flawed, wholly manmade endeavour.
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mypcforums
14 years ago
That's another scientific hypothesis. None of them have been proven but atheists continue to churn them out, attempting to discredit the bible. If you want to discuss this reasonably, stop lying.
There are no atheists in hell.
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TheBeardedWonder
14 years ago
"The worshipping is for us, dimwit, not Him. "
-Not sure I understand what you're saying. I know we're the ones worshiping, that's what I said. Are you saying it's for our benefit to worship him? Because that's also what I said.
So again, i'm not sure what about my last post makes me a 'nitwit'... can you elaborate?
"Look, Hank. Have you ever seen such a beautifully punted baby?" - King of the Hill
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mypcforums
14 years ago
Are you saying it's for our benefit to worship him? Because that's also what I said.
I reread your post in case I misunderstood and I didn't see where you could have said this. You didn't even allude to it.
Psalm 22:3 "But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel."
It benefits us because God lives in our praises. When we praise Him, God comes to us "with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction.' (1Thes 1:5) This I know as fact.
And the only way to return is to worship him?
The only way to return to God is by accepting Jesus as your savior. God doesn't hold a grudge, as you say, nor is he petty. Man walked away from God, not the other way around. Adam and Eve disobeyed God and invited evil into the garden and our world. There was no turning back from that. Since then, all descendants have had to live in a world with evil, thus, original sin. We are created innocent, we are born innocent but we learn and do evil.
Having some arbitrary 'high point' we have to hit before we're good enough to be with him makes NO SENSE.
There is no high point that we have to reach. Jesus will drag you up from the gutter. In order to be saved, we only have to accept Jesus as Lord and believe that He died on the cross to save us from our sins. It's so simple and easy that it is a stumbling block to many. (Romans 9:30-32) "What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the 'stumbling stone.'"
Jehovah is a god of mercy and love. He stepped down from His throne in heaven, became lowly man, and died a torturous death for us so that we will NOT be punished as we deserve. Jehovah wants to be with us (the reason He created us), not punish us.
There are no atheists in hell.
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jmarkoff2
14 years ago
Christians believe that, rather than simply granting forgiveness to those who sincerely ask, God was unable to absolve humanity without violently killing an innocent man who happened to be part of him as a sacrifice to another part of him, except that he didn't really die anyway. The absurdities of this doctrine are too numerous to list.
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mypcforums
14 years ago
You call it absurdity, I call it saving grace.
P.S. God didn't kill Jesus, man in his infinite wisdom and with unbelieving hearts did.
There are no atheists in hell.
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TheBeardedWonder
14 years ago
"I reread your post in case I misunderstood and I didn't see where you could have said this. You didn't even allude to it."
"And the only way to return is to worship him? "
-Right there, I confirm if the only way to get into heaven is by worshiping God. It was the 1st sentence of my last post...
" Man walked away from God, not the other way around. Adam and Eve disobeyed God and invited evil into the garden and our world."
-A) Only a petty God would care if we walked away from him. Why wouldn't he be above such minute things?
-B) Evil must have already been in the Garden and our world. How else would Adam and Eve have been exposed to it? Did they INVENT evil out of nowhere? No, the evil snake was already IN the garden and offered them an apple from the garden. Sounds like the evil was already there, and from nature. I could be wrong, but that's how it reads I thought.
"There is no high point that we have to reach. Jesus will drag you up from the gutter."
-The 'high point', in regards to salvation, would then be accepting Jesus. Meaning that we're not good enough for God's love until we accept his Son... which brings up a whole different layer of things to discuss.
" Jehovah wants to be with us (the reason He created us), not punish us. "
-If that were true why not just take us ALL up to heaven right now? Why test us at all? He knows we're not perfect, then tests us (do we accept/worship him or not), and if we fail we go to hell? It just doesn't make sense. If he truly wanted us to be happy with him in heaven, why wouldn't he just do that RIGHT NOW?
"Look, Hank. Have you ever seen such a beautifully punted baby?" - King of the Hill
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mypcforums
14 years ago
"And the only way to return is to worship him? "
-Right there, I confirm if the only way to get into heaven is by worshiping God. It was the 1st sentence of my last post...
The only way to be saved is to accept Jesus as Lord and believe that He died on the cross for your sins. This is the salvation offered by God. Either you accept it and be saved or reject it and go to hell. It's your choice and since it's your choice, you cannot blame God for it.
" Man walked away from God, not the other way around. Adam and Eve disobeyed God and invited evil into the garden and our world."
-A) Only a petty God would care if we walked away from him. Why wouldn't he be above such minute things?
-B) Evil must have already been in the Garden and our world. How else would Adam and Eve have been exposed to it? Did they INVENT evil out of nowhere? No, the evil snake was already IN the garden and offered them an apple from the garden. Sounds like the evil was already there, and from nature. I could be wrong, but that's how it reads I thought.
It's apparent that you consider God petty even though it's man who invited evil into our lives but you know what the bible says about Adam and Eve, what happened, how it happened and the circumstances under which it happened. God told Adam and Eve not to invite evil into their lives but they did it anyway. If someone murdered your spouse, would you not expect that person to live with the consequences of his actions? It's exactly what God is doing . . . making man responsible for his own actions, including accepting the salvation He offers us.
"There is no high point that we have to reach. Jesus will drag you up from the gutter."
-The 'high point', in regards to salvation, would then be accepting Jesus. Meaning that we're not good enough for God's love until we accept his Son... which brings up a whole different layer of things to discuss.
God always loves us but if a person doesn't want to accept forgivess for his sins through Jesus Christ, it's
his choice. That person is telling God that he doesn't want God in his life. God won't do something against a person's will. You can't force someone to love you. God is just letting you have your way, the way that
you chose. You can't blame God because you chose not to be saved from hell. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are one God. Not loving the son is not loving the Father. God doesn't stop loving you if you don't accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior or if you don't love Jesus. Your salvation depends on it though. It's the salvation that God offers you. It's the
only plan for salvation. (Romans 8:38-39) " . . . neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." God loves you even though you don't believe that He exists.
" Jehovah wants to be with us (the reason He created us), not punish us. "
-If that were true why not just take us ALL up to heaven right now? Why test us at all? He knows we're not perfect, then tests us (do we accept/worship him or not), and if we fail we go to hell? It just doesn't make sense. If he truly wanted us to be happy with him in heaven, why wouldn't he just do that RIGHT NOW?
1. God is waiting for the time that he preordained so that the complete number is born.
2. God doesn't test us. Satan tempts us and God allows it in order to strengthen us but He never allows Satan to tempt us past our ability to resist him. God allows trials in our lives so that the dross will be burned away and all that is left is the gold. Our salvation and God's love don't depend on whether or not we worship Him. Our salvation comes through Jesus. It is a gift freely given. We can't do anything to earn it.
3. We don't go to hell if we fail. We are not saved if we do not accept Jesus as our Lord and savior. It is OUR CHOICE. God told you about Himself and His salvation. If you don't choose to accept it, it's your fault if you go to hell, not God's fault. Salvation or Hell. Which do you choose?'
4. A long story made short: Very few will go to heaven, the rest of us will remain on a new earth. God will sit on the throne in heaven, Jesus will sit on the throne on the new earth. (Rev 21:1-3) "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God." The people who have died prior to this time are "asleep." So says God's word.
There are no atheists in hell.
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jmarkoff2
14 years ago
"God's word" is a collection of stories invented by men, just like the Iliad, the Gilgamesh, the Beowulf, the Amazing Spider-man, etc. It is different from Harry Potter, which was not written by any man.
About the Adam and Eve thing, how did the snake talk? Did God create snakes to be a second sentient species? Was there a prohibition on the snake messing with the Tree? Does a snake messiah have to come to remove their species' sin? Why did that Tree even exist? Why was A&E's "crime" so horrible as to merit any more punishment than a one-week timeout? They were simple-minded and stole a few pieces of fruit, hardly an unforgivable atrocity.
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mypcforums
14 years ago
Adam was extremely intelligent. God gave him the task of naming all the animals because of his superior intellect. By today's standards, he'd be the genius of all geniuses.
Adam and Eve didn't just steal a few peices of fruit. They invited evil into the world. I've said this several times but each time you gloss over that fact. No, you do more than gloss over it, you ignore it and bring up the same questions over and over, along with the other atheists in other threads. I wonder how you'd feel if one of your children invited a psychotic killer into your home.
There are no atheists in hell.
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jmarkoff2
14 years ago
The naming of several million species must have kept Adam busy for a while.
Wasn't it rash of God to put that awful Tree in the middle of the garden to begin with? At least he should have put a barbed wire fence around it.
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mypcforums
14 years ago
Wasn't it rash of God to put that awful Tree in the middle of the garden to begin with? At least he should have put a barbed wire fence around it.
It's all about free will. God didn't want puppets or creations that had no choice but to do what He told them to do. God wants His creations to love Him and obey Him because we want to, not because we have to. That's the only kind of love worth having. God wants us to make a choice, Satan or Jehovah.
It could be asked why God made Lucifer in the first place, the most perfect angel, who was as close to being God as an angel could possibly come. It all boils down to free will. God wants his angels to love him and obey Him because they want to, not because they have to.
What's love if it's forced? What good is blind obedience? It would all be empty.
How many places on earth have a barbed wire fence around it that man constantly ignores to get what he wants? Man will do anything to get what he wants. Nothing is impenetrable.
It could be asked why God made man to desire things instead of being complacent. Wouldn't we be close to zombies if He had, or, at the very least, the Stepford Wives?
There are no atheists in hell.
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