Was Smiley the mole?


Question mark.


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Why should Mark know if Smiley is the mole or not?

Glasgow's FOREMOST authority Italics = irony. Infer the opposite please.

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No. Someone else was, but i can't remember his name now.

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No. Someone else was, but i can't remember his name now.


Well, yes, but ...

You have not seen this film, and it is really very different from the version you saw. So why are you answering questions about it?

Smiley was the hero of the version you saw. Here, he is almost the villain. But no, even in this version, he is not the mole as far as we can tell. Not unless there are 2 moles.

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well, since I am correct that smiley wasn't the mole, what are you complaining about? reading the synopsis of the film,i. See that the mole is the same person as in the tv series. judging by the synopsis, the essentials in the film appear to be the same as in the Tv version. So no need to get your knickers in a twist.

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well, since I am correct that smiley wasn't the mole, what are you complaining about?


I'm just cautioning you. If you continue to answer questions about the film without having seen it, you will eventually be wrong. But sure. You got away with it this time.

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the question was a very simple one. was Smiley the mole? And as i knew he wasn't, i answered it. nobody else had. if you care so much about correct information being given, why didn't you answer the question?

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the question was a very simple one. was Smiley the mole? And as i knew he wasn't, i answered it. nobody else had. if you care so much about correct information being given, why didn't you answer the question?


You did not know. You guessed. And I did answer the question. I told you your guess was probably correct. Do you want me to say it again?

Okay. Here it is again. This film is largely incomprehensible. But, after multiple viewings, one can reasonably conclude the following things from what we see on screen:

(1) Control suspects Smiley is a deep-cover Soviet Agent (a "mole"). Smiley seems to be his prime suspect.
(2) During the film, Smiley seems to know things he could not possibly know, like the identity of the woman shot by Karla in front of Jim. He is also consistently portrayed as cruel and manipulative.
(3) Bill Haydon is ultimately revealed as a deep-cover Soviet Agent (a "mole").
(4) If one assumes that there can be only one deep-cover Soviet Agent (or "mole), then #3 disproves #1. This may be the intent of the film.
(5) However, nothing prevents a sequel in which Smiley is shown to be a second deep-cover Soviet Agent ("mole"). As Control says, "Nothing is genuine any more."

So here again is my answer to the OP's question based on having seen the film: Probably not ... but who the hell knows?

My answer based on the book or BBC series would be: Definitely not! But the book and/or BBC series are not the same as this film. The story has been radically altered.

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You should take up writing fiction for a living. You've had plenty of practice writing fiction on this board.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e3tGxnFKfE

http://tinyurl.com/LTROI-story

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You should take up writing fiction for a living. You've had plenty of practice writing fiction on this board.


We were discussing fiction. But which part do you disagree with?

Is it the part where I said ...
(1) ... Smiley is (probably) not a mole?
(2) ... Control primarily suspects Smiley?
(3) ... Haydon is revealed to be a mole?
(4) ... Control says "Nothing is genuine any more"?
or something else?

Nah. Never mind. You don't have anything specific in mind. You have a substantive thought in your head. Just like last time. You're just ANGRY ANGRY ANGRY.

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"We were discussing fiction." - nystulc


Fiction can be discussed without using a fictitious argument. Deliberately misrepresenting character's thoughts and motives is using fiction to discuss fiction. This is why I refuse to discuss this film with you, you just keep making stuff up, you can't help it.

"Nah. Never mind. You don't have anything specific in mind. You have a substantive thought in your head. Just like last time. You're just ANGRY ANGRY ANGRY." - nystulc


Lol, you have already edited your post and you still managed to miss out the word "don't" from "You have a substantive thought in your head". You are the one coming across as angry, too angry to proof read accurately. Prey tell, what other than anger keeps you coming back to this board to whine and gnash your teeth about a film that many many people have enjoyed and understood perfectly well? If not anger, what is it?

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e3tGxnFKfE

http://tinyurl.com/LTROI-story

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Fiction can be discussed without using a fictitious argument. Deliberately misrepresenting character's thoughts and motives is using fiction to discuss fiction. This is why I refuse to discuss this film with you, you just keep making stuff up, you can't help it.


Problem is, not only are you refusing to tell me what your issue is, you are refusing to tell anyone else, either.

Again, what have I misrepresented about the film? And it might be better to stick to just what I have said in the post you were responding to , or at least in this thread.

Otherwise you seem like a heckler disrupting a conversation in order to pursue a grudge. Look, if you don't want to discuss the film with me, don't discuss the film with me. Don't just follow me around attacking me personally, for any petty reason or no reason at all.

Your latest attack is directed at my lousy post-editing skills. Who cares?


Lol, you have already edited your post and you still managed to miss out the word "don't" from "You have a substantive thought in your head".


LOL!!! You got me, Jameron. That was OBVIOUSLY a mistake on my part.

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"[Smiley] is almost the villain." - nystulc


Nope.

"[Smiley] is not the mole as far as we can tell. Not unless there are 2 moles." - nystulc


Or five? 

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e3tGxnFKfE

http://tinyurl.com/LTROI-story

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Jameron wrote:


> "[Smiley] is almost the villain." - nystulc

Nope.


What part are you disagreeing with? The implication that he is not 100% a villain; or the implication that he is not 100% a hero? Are you angry because I said "villain" implying he is one; or angry because I said "almost" implying he is not one?

Do you disagree with the implication that he is less heroic and more villainous than the Smiley of prior versions, such as the BBC version or the novel?

Or are you merely objecting on philosophical principle to the word "villain", implying as it does the existence of meaningful moral standards by which a character's actions can be judged, in the context of a godless and meaningless existence?



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"What part are you disagreeing with? The implication that he is not 100% a villain; or the implication that he is not 100% a hero? Are you angry because I said "villain" implying he is one; or angry because I said "almost" implying he is not one?

Do you disagree with the implication that he is less heroic and more villainous than the Smiley of prior versions, such as the BBC version or the novel?

Or are you merely objecting on philosophical principle to the word "villain", implying as it does the existence of meaningful moral standards by which a character's actions can be judged, in the context of a godless and meaningless existence?" - nystulc


Nope.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e3tGxnFKfE

http://tinyurl.com/LTROI-story

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Nope.


Bye then.

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No.

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I wondered the same exact thing. Especially at the very end of the movie when Smiley took his seat at the head of the table. He had a wry, little smile on his face. As if he had just seen a plan of his come to a successful completion.

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Tarr's telex to the Circus prompting the mole to arrange Irina's abduction was sent on November 20. Smiley and Control had been dismissed six days earlier on the 14th, so Lacon knows Smiley is free of suspicion and appoints him to investigate.

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Tarr's telex to the Circus prompting the mole to arrange Irina's abduction was sent on November 20. Smiley and Control had been dismissed six days earlier on the 14th, so Lacon knows Smiley is free of suspicion and appoints him to investigate.


Your dates are correct, but everything else you say above is very questionable.

In the film, Irina & Tarr go on a spree, perhaps calling attention to themselves. On Tarr's return, he sends a telegram, while Tufty looks on. Tarr leaves and returns, to find Tufty has been tortured and killed by the Russians. Irina is then captured by the Russians.

Did the Russians learn of the telegram by torturing Tufty? Dunno. But if not, why was Tufty's torture-murder thrown in? It does not happen in the book.

While it is still possible to suppose that the mole somehow triggered Irina's capture, it is impossible not to notice that every reference to this from the novel has been systematically removed and/or changed. The "stalling" of London Station is downplayed to a single lazy non-response, rather than the active delaying tactics seen in the novel. Tarr goes AWOL -- not because Irina's capture convinces him the mole is on his heels -- but rather because Tufty's murder makes him afraid he will be blamed because of "how it looked". In the book, Tarr wants vengeance against the mole for Irina's capture; in the film, he instead blames himself, and wants the mole captured because he hopes the mole can be traded for Irina. In Tarr's final rant against Percy's stalling, which is otherwise right from the novel, the line "That's how he got my Russki girl" is removed. Most importantly, the story of Irina's capture is moved to the middle of the story, and is NOT presented as a reason for suspecting there is a mole.

In any event, there is no indication in the film that Tarr tells Lacon anything about Irina's capture. He just says there's a mole right at the top of the Circus. Lacon credits this because Control once said something similar; and not because any other proof is offered.

Indeed, there is a positive indication that Tarr said nothing about Irina to Lacon, not even offscreen. Tarr assumes Smiley knows about the mole, presumably because he believes that Lacon passed on to Smiley whatever Tarr told Lacon. But Tarr still assumes Smiley knows nothing about Irina or her capture:

TARR: I needed to see you.
SMILEY: Why?
TARR: There's a woman. I need you to trade for her. I need you to get her back off Karla.
SMILEY: A woman?
TARR: Her name's Irina.


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Bill Haydon was the mole.

Arthur, put the kettle on and dig out those lemon hand wipes.

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I think we are made to think that Control could never completely eliminate Smiley as a suspect. This could be the 'film' reason for Control's decline, and his decision to have Smiley follow him out the door.

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Tailor

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