MovieChat Forums > Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy (2012) Discussion > So which was it?

So which was it?

posted 8 years ago by PeppermintPatti
16 replies | jump to latest

When Smiley and Guillem question Jerry Westerby about the night that Jim Prideaux was shot, he said that he couldn't get a word out of Control, and thank God that Bill Haydon showed up and took over. We see him making command decisions, making calls, sending Westerby to Prideaux's flat, and going to Prideaux's flat himself. We see him take and hide the photo of Haydon and Prideaux. And I think it is daylight by then.

Then, when Smiley and Guillem we getting lunch at Wimpy's, Smiley tells Guillem that Haydon wasn't at his club, but rather at his house. Cut to flashback of George walking in the door after his trip to Germany. Haydon slipping his shoes back on, etc. Indicating he had just boinked Ann. These were supposed to be the same time.

And why the heck is this the only time we see Smiley smile? Couldn't he have said something like "Haydon, old chap. Were you just shagging my wife?" Why smile, unless he was happy for Ann, that she was finally getting some?

And one more question. Was Smiley eating a cheeseburger with a knife and fork? Did Guillem have a French fry on a fork? Ahhhhhhhhhh! Gasp, Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh! Too weird!

[–] kaelri-00556 8 years ago

It's dark outside when Haydon and Westerby are clearing Jim's flat. It's possible that Haydon returned to Ann for several hours before Smiley arrived in the morning. But I think it's more likely that these were two entirely different episodes. Bill and George are both quite relaxed and casual (or at least pretending to be), which I doubt would be the case in the immediate aftermath of the Budapest crisis. This scene is simply telling us that George knows about Bill and Ann, having caught them red-handed. So when Westerby said he called George's house, then Haydon conveniently showed up at the Circus, George put two and two together.

To your second question: George Smiley and Bill Haydon are a pair of old-school English gentlemen, and veteran intelligence officers on top of that. I do not believe there is any earthly power that could have compelled either of those men to openly acknowledge the reality of the situation, rather than fiercely ignore it like the well-trained Brits they are. George could have caught them fornicating on the kitchen table and he still would have offered Bill a cup of tea before delicately addressing the crime.

As for their eating habits at Wimpy, I just wouldn't look too closely.

[–] ph75006 8 years ago

[quote] I do not believe there is any earthly power that could have compelled either of those men to openly acknowledge the reality of the situation, rather than fiercely ignore it like the well-trained Brits they are.[\quote]

I always thought this was an exaggerated stereotype until I met Brits like this in real life. It is still bewildering to me how people could just deliberately avoid realities to that extent like that.

[–] Jameron 8 years ago

"I always thought this was an exaggerated stereotype until I met Brits like this in real life. It is still bewildering to me how people could just deliberately avoid realities to that extent like that." - westward7

I'm a Brit, and I refuse to believe my fellow countrymen will not accept the reality of any situation.

;)

.

- - - - - - - - - - -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e3tGxnFKfE

http://tinyurl.com/LTROI-story

[–] hobartz 7 years ago

Well, that explains why several Brits I've known (half-)jokingly refer to the USA as "The Colonies". 😊

[–] nystulc 8 years ago

Then, when Smiley and Guillem we getting lunch at Wimpy's, Smiley tells Guillem that Haydon wasn't at his club, but rather at his house. Cut to flashback of George walking in the door after his trip to Germany. Haydon slipping his shoes back on, etc. Indicating he had just boinked Ann. These were supposed to be the same time.

These were not supposed to be the same time. It is just a flashback to some time in the past. There is no need to coordinate it with the night of Jim's shooting.

[–] PeppermintPatti 8 years ago

I appreciate the points made. I still think George was coming home from the trip to Berlin that Westerby mentioned. When he spotted Haydon, Haydon asked if he had a good trip.

George didn't need to offer Haydon tea, because Haydon had helped himself to George's booze.

I really think this was an oversight by the director. Surely, George would have been told about the shooting by his co workers. And Haydon is such an egomaniac, he would have told Gorge all about it, and how he came in and took control of the situation. So why did Haydon just sit there making small talk and drinking booze.

BTW. I've seen the BBC mini series, and seen this movie a few times, but not read the book yet.

[–] nystulc 8 years ago

I appreciate the points made. I still think George was coming home from the trip to Berlin that Westerby mentioned. When he spotted Haydon, Haydon asked if he had a good trip.

I think the idea is that Smiley knows from experience that Haydon sometimes comes over when he is away; and this is one of the factors that helps him reach the conclusion that Bill was at his house on the night of the shooting.

[–] kristavogelberg 8 years ago

I do not know what nystulc ansered, since I do not read his posts, not a single one and on principle, having read too many. As for the scene with Smiley arriving and finding Haydon, I am with kaelri - this was an earlier scene. People from Circus travelled a lot (just the nature of the work), so there is nothing unique in Smiley arriving from a trip. Haydon chose the moment to let Smiley know he was sleeping with Ann - part of his and Karla's plan.

But on the morning after the Budapest fiasco this kind of (outwardly) relaxed meeting would have been out of the question. There would probably have been somebody - probably somebody not as high up as Haydon - from the Circus waiting for Smiley arrive from Berlin and order him to the Circus immediately.

And, indeed, many months later, when Smiley was back investigating, he put two and two together.

[–] joenicseib-1 8 years ago

I'm not sure why everyone is confused by this sequence. You're right, the scene was Smiley returning from Berlin. Haydon was with Ann the night before, but left when Westrerby called regarding the shooting of Prideaux. He returned early in the morning after clearing out Prideaux's flat. Haydon's ploy was to be "visibly" Ann's lover (which he explains to Smiley in the final prison scene . . . "Karla said you wouldn't see me straight"), so he wanted to be there upon Smiley's return. It is a little odd that Haydon didn't mention the Prideaux shooting that morning, but I guess it would have defeated his real purpose for being there.

[–] nystulc 8 years ago

I'm not sure why everyone is confused by this sequence. You're right, the scene was Smiley returning from Berlin. Haydon was with Ann the night before, but left when Westrerby called regarding the shooting of Prideaux. He returned early in the morning after clearing out Prideaux's flat. Haydon's ploy was to be "visibly" Ann's lover (which he explains to Smiley in the final prison scene . . . "Karla said you wouldn't see me straight"), so he wanted to be there upon Smiley's return. It is a little odd that Haydon didn't mention the Prideaux shooting that morning, but I guess it would have defeated his real purpose for being there.

Bill became a mole years ago, long before Jim got shot. Karla met Smiley, and learned of Smiley's "weakness" for Ann years ago, long before Jim got shot. Karla's idea to distract Smiley from suspecting Bill as the mole, by distracting him with jealousy, presumably arose years ago, long before Jim got shot.

Bill could be confident of spending the night with Ann, on the night of the shooting, because they had already become lovers earlier. Both ideas were suggested by Karla, presumably at separate times.

Nothing in the film necessarily makes sense. But it's only fair that we give it the benefit of any reasonable doubts. Therefore, if we try to make reasonable sense of it, I think "everyone" is probably right in thinking this meant to be a flashback to a time long before the shooting. This also would match the chronology in the book and BBC version, in which their affair was obvious long before Jim's shooting, but Bill is still instructed by Karla to spend the night with Ann on the night of the shooting.

After Jim's shooting, Bill is supposed to be playing the hero, to enhance his influence in the Circus. A strange time to be rushing to bed with Ann and then acting like nothing happened to Jim.

[–] joenicseib-1 8 years ago

Just occurred to me - has anyone checked to see what clothes Haydon's wearing in the two scenes? They being (1) where Haydon's storming into the Circus acting as if he just heard the news on the ticker about Prideaux (and subsequntly clearing out Prideaux's flat) and (2) in Smiley's dining room in the morning. If he has the same wardrobe, then there's no doubt that it was intended to be the following morning.

I see Haydon rushing to HQ's (being the hero) to further cover his ass, more so than ehancing his influence. Maybe he rushed back to bed with Ann because he liked it :) Even if Haydon had already established with Smiley that he was cheating with his wife, it's still not unreasonable that he would take advantage of the occassion where Smiley is out of town.

But the clothes is the key!

[–] nystulc 8 years ago

Just occurred to me - has anyone checked to see what clothes Haydon's wearing in the two scenes? They being (1) where Haydon's storming into the Circus acting as if he just heard the news on the ticker about Prideaux (and subsequntly clearing out Prideaux's flat) and (2) in Smiley's dining room in the morning. If he has the same wardrobe, then there's no doubt that it was intended to be the following morning.

I see Haydon rushing to HQ's (being the hero) to further cover his ass, more so than ehancing his influence. Maybe he rushed back to bed with Ann because he liked it :) Even if Haydon had already established with Smiley that he was cheating with his wife, it's still not unreasonable that he would take advantage of the occassion where Smiley is out of town.

But the clothes is the key!

Well, it might be evidence of the director's intent ... the scriptwriter may have had other ideas.

I have a copy of the pre-filming script. In that version, no connection is drawn between the Bill-in-socks flashback and Smiley's "he was at my house last night" comment. They occur at different points in the film. The fact that the director decided to juxtapose these scenes may suggest that the director understands them to be on the same night.

Of course, the director may not have understood the script he read -- and who can blame him.

I'll check the clothes for you tonight.

[–] joenicseib-1 8 years ago

Well - I beat you to it . . . I checked the scenes last night and indeed his wardrobe is different when he's at Smiley's house in the morning, so they are different episodes. I don't have a problem with the scene in either context (but I was originally fooled into thinking it was the morning after). I guess the fact that Haydon had brought over that painting would also suggest that it was a different time (unless he had stolen it from Prideaux's flat :) It is a bit odd they chose to edit the scenes that way . . I guess that they just wanted to illustrate that Haydon always seemed to be hanging around when Smiley was away.

[–] kaelri-00556 8 years ago

I think your criticisms serve mainly as evidence that these scenes did not take place on the same day. :)

[–] GorchBrother 8 years ago

I used to love going to Wimpy. And yes they gave you a knife and fork. Those half-pounders were a handful.

They served drinks in glass tumblers too.

"I don't need to believe it's real. I just need to believe it."

[–] jamesc-helgrim 8 years ago

They're pretty clearly intended to be completely different episodes.