When watching the end of movie and Andrew is looking at the footage I started thinking he was going to submit what they shot to that film festival. While it wasn't Erotica in the traditional sense it was still a pretty interesting and damned entertaining piece.
shareDitto, my thoughts ~ T
shareIt's pretty much the same ending as Baghead, but yeah I thought the same thing as well.
shareAs for me, I really felt sad for him because all I could think of was "what a waste", or "not again".
I really had that impression, that he was sad that he couldn't get through with anything. And that laughter, we hear it from the beginning but it keeps revealing itself for what it truely is, a facade for his sadness for not being a complete person and not being able to finish any project...
What a downer of an ending...
Well, that's what I thought of it.
Maybe. BUT the fact that he has a tape to watch proves that he did finish something, even if it didn't turn out as he planned it. If he had just left the room or just sat around, it would have emphasized the project's incompletion--I think it's worth noting that we linger deliberately on the fact that there is something to show for their efforts. My reading of it, anyway.
shareI would have felt a lot better about the ending if...
Ben and Andrew had made a more sincere attempt. At the beginning of the idea, they were discussing that "art" was about pushing boundaries. Being heterosexual men, they jump straight to the idea of penetrative intercourse. So, instead of a project about pushing and exploring the boundaries of a heterosexual platonic male friendship, it became this thing they had no idea how to competently execute. Instead of ignoring the fact that these two men really did have love for each other, and had a good rapport to work with, there was this manly slapping of themselves, and an exploration of their awkwardness.
I think the two of them should had started with an intimacy exercise, such as one partner remaining passive while the other explores with touches, and perhaps light kisses, the passive partner's face and neck while he recounts the reasons why he feels loving and safe with this person. Trying the kiss on the lips after a introduction like that, when both of them are feeling open and relaxed would have been far more effective than the tense, steel-yourself-and-just-do-it kiss they ended up with. Then, if they just looked at each other and said Hey, I love you man, and you just don't rev my engine that way, it really would have better accomplished what they started out to do. (Assuming, of course, that the inclusion of penetration was not a requirement of the contest.)
With that ending, Ben would have come through for his friend by giving him the material he needed, and pushing though his own not coming through for Andrew boundary he seems to have been carrying since college. Andrew would have had enough material to finish the art project, pushing through his personal boundary of being irresponsible and never finishing what he starts. It also would have helped both of them push though their issues with homophobia, helping Ben put his weirdness with the video store clerk to rest, and Andrew would feel a little more comfortable in his role of open-minded free-wheeling artist. End result: a true piece of art, and everyone is a better person for it.
Ben wouldn't have gone any further than Anna admitted to going without Ben's knowledge or permission, so they would be even-stephen on that count, plus this would be an occasion for Anna to give open and loving support to her husband by attending Humpfest together. (Sounds like Anna and Ben would have been interested in exploring soft-swap, anyway.)
One thing that did bother me: Here, Ben was planning on penetrative sex with his single best friend, yet the two of them avoided the conversation about STD testing, condoms and lubricants. Ben and Anna were planning to get pregnant in the near future. This is a serious health issue that could have really affected their marriage and pregnancy. Also, if Monica and her girlfriend had discussed with Andrew about what toys to expect and the role of the toys in their encounter,(on whom and when,) that situation wouldn't have fallen apart either.
Yes kids, failing to plan IS planning to fail!
"Clever, that. I had thought the sky was ... real." The Vampire Lestat
I really agree with Talamasca. Both of them walked into the hotel room so unprepared as to suggest that they had no intention of seeing the thing through in the first place. No Viagra? No condoms? No lube? No porn to excite themselves? If the entire point is that neither of them actually meant to go through with it, then this makes some kind of sense, but the film tries to establish that this is genuinely something that both of them want to do (though it really fails to do so for Andrew until the end). Or that they need to do. So when they go for it so half-heartedly, it ends up feeling like the ending of a very different film.
______________
http://agcrump.wordpress.com: My movie blog
I'm of two minds about it. On one hand, I was anticipating the wife going, "Are you kidding me? He's been off god knows where, doing god knows what with who knows who, and we're trying to have a baby?" It seems like it would've been in that conversation where she admits to hooking up with someone. Actually, I think I'm about to talk myself out of "the other hand," which is that surely that conversation took place at some point and we just don't see it onscreen.
I was going to say the same thing about the, er, accoutrements. Ben had already said at the Dionysia house that he'd just pop a pill. And we don't know what else he might've stuck down in that tote with the camera; Andrew had that big duffle, so it could've been that we just didn't see anything because they never got anywhere near close enough to having sex. However, it did seem like they just were clueless about how/what was going to go down.
yeah... you know, i don't want to be negative and know-it-all, but this idea about the "intimacy exercise" isn't really how heterosexual male sexuality works. it's not about intimacy as much as attraction, and frankly, if you aren't attracted to someone, no amount of "intimacy exercises" are going to make it work. i want to just say also that i'm not homophobic. i am all for people doing whatever it is that makes them happy, but there is a BIg difference between how men and women interact sexually. for women, intimacy exercises work because its how they relate to their sexuality.
i relate it to this... if i were in bed with roseanne arnold, there is NO amount of touching and kissing and "intimacy" that could EVER make me able to go through with it. i'm just not into her, and i'm just not into men, and, while women may find that they would be willing to experiment with their friends because it is something they share, it would NOT work in a male friendship. that type of intimacy is NOT part of the male hetero dynamic.
about the only way i could imagine going through with something like this is... actually, i couldn't do it. no matter how drunk. no matter how much money you would be willing to pay me. i simply am not aroused by men, ESPECIALLY my friends... so, sorry, this whole "intimacy exercise" thing would not have made one bit of difference. in fact, it would repulse me... and again, not homophobic. roseanne would get the same reaction.
If you had read my post more carefully, you would have noticed that I never advocated Ben and Andrew engaging in intercourse together. I suggested the exercise because it was obvious that they were both feeling very uptight, and needed something to break the ice and allow them to get comfortable with being physically closer. I expected that once they felt calm and at ease with each other, then the problem of neither one of them being at all sexually attracted to men would stop the project cold at that point.
Character-wise, I see very valid reasons for Ben and Andrew to put more effort in to the project. Both of them confess to having homophobic feelings that they are uncomfortable with harboring. Ben felt the need to grow more as an individual while he took on more responsibility in the role of husband and father, and Andrew's homophobia caused him to miss out on a threesome with two WOMEN because he felt spooked by some rubber toys. This was an amazing opportunity for both of them to confront and work through their homophobia in a safe space with a trusted friend. Think of how much it could have meant to both of them personally to take that step and overcome their sexual fear of other men: Ben would have felt more a man without worrying about emasculation by random sexual wonderings about other men; and Andrew would have taken a big step in being more the free-minded artist he wanted himself to be, and better able to take advantage of the more daring experiences offered to him.
Because Andrew and Ben were long standing friends, with a shared history and some degree of emotional intimacy, they should have been able to be in each other's personal space without feeling menaced. But that wasn't the case. Again. the purpose of the exercise I described was for Ben and Andrew to reassure themselves that, in that situation, it was allowable to accept the physical proximity of the other man. I never equated that physical comfort level with sexual interest in one another. As I said, to me, the point is to overcome their homophobia, not have sex. Who wants to watch two people not attracted or aroused by each other go through the motions? That sounds like the most boring porno ever!
I really think this scenario presents all of the characters a genuine opportunity to grow. Instead, they keep an iron grip on their personal barriers in life, and everybody loses. I found that aspect sad and frustrating.
No, I got what you were saying. It seemed like you were advocating the idea that trying to become more "intimate" MIGHT be a way for them to break through the boundaries that were keeping them from being able to go through with their stated goal of making a porno, which I believe was the main conflict in the film (its been awhile since Ive seen it, and it wasnt that memorable to me at any rate). I was simply saying that I didn't think it would be an effective way of even trying to broach intimacy and homophobia issues. honesty, the idea of being intimate with a man is as unpleasant as sexual contact. It's probably going to make any potential encounter MORE difficult than less. I actually don't think it would, as you say, "break the ice", because male sexuality isn't wired for intimacy. It is really a much more purely sexual act. The idea of being intimate with another man, to who,m you are not attracted, does not become a safe space just because you are familiar with each other.
Granted these guys were more homophobic than average, but that is not overcome by intimacy. That is just adding more alien emotions to the mix. I do agree it would have stopped the project cold, but i certainly dont think i would have helped with any feelings of homophobia they had. i think the main thing to realize is that the ice would never ave been broken, per se. it wold never start to feel comfortable. it would always be a situation where they felt foreign and uncomfortable. to use my example of roseanne, i am never going to relax in a situation where there is some intimacy between the two f us, because i dont want to be there. no matter how much she tries to put me at ease it is not something that will ever be comfortable.
i really think part of the disconnect here is the mere difference between male and female sexuality. There is a cliche that women will "experiment during college", and try to explore sex with another woman. heterosexual males do not do this. Why? because female sexuality is more fluid, and is based less on physical attributes than a less concrete definition of "attraction".
I think t's telling that you said "Who wants to watch two people not attracted or aroused by each other go through the motions? That sounds like the most boring porno ever! " Honestly, you just described practically every porno ever made. Its not about intimacy and attraction, its about watching the act.
And I didnt mean to attack or go after you personally. Your thoughts were obviously well intentioned and thoughtful. I just felt like I needed to weigh in where the ideas struck me as false. Nothing personal
The idea of the "intimacy exercises" came from what real couples are assigned to do when their sexual relationship becomes so broken they need to reboot. It's a way to reintroduce physical closeness after things get weird. And things were definitely weird between the two of them! I was speaking of acclimating to physical proximity only, not so much emotional intimacy. I wasn't suggesting they share their most vulnerable childhood memory and cry over how much their mothers loved them while they held each other. I know that would have been unnecessary, and out of character for men. Maybe it was the label "intimacy" that threw you off.
As a woman, were I in that situation, simply remembering the fact that this is my best friend and we agreed to make out today would be enough to kinda bolster my courage, and allow me to be a more confident participant. I was looking for a way to override their sudden, and apparently overwhelming, fear response to one another. They were just way too uptight. They needed to do SOMETHING! It wasn't really about connecting with each other emotionally, it was about getting over that barrier of accepting within themselves that they were allowing a man into their physical space after a lifetime of conditioning against it. As in: I can man up and play this role because I know him and his motives, and hurting me isn't one of them.
They both said this was something they wanted to do. It was THEIR idea! You, knowing how you feel about other men, and being comfortable with it, would not have suggested or volunteered for this project. You have no desire to go there. The characters in the movie wanted to explore this aspect in themselves. They both had valid reasons driving them to want to go through with it.
Think of it this way: If a woman said she would give you something you really wanted (could be sex with her!) if she could watch you make out with your best guy friend (or Rosanne!) for one full minute, you couldn't just close your eyes, put up and shut up for one minute and give her a good show? Really? We're not talking about attraction, here. Or "intimacy." That wasn't the project! We are talking about Cowboying Up and getting the job done! They both let their cowardice win out over courage, and let each other down. That's what I found frustrating. And since I was so frustrated, I tried to come up with ways around the big wuss out, like maybe they should just start off slower, like just touching?
You're right about the reality behind porno, of course. The difference is, that in real pornos they are acting like they are aroused and interested in their partner(s), and the project as planned had no acting at all, just two straight guys banging away at each other. To me, seeing the men give it a real and honest try, and go far enough to realize they didn't need to go through with it would be far more interesting to watch than that.
Don't worry, I didn't feel attacked. This is a discussion forum. Everyone has a right to share their opinion, and as a man, you have a valid point of view. I think you just got too hung up and sidetracked on the women+intimacy+connection=sex idea to understand where I was really coming from. In my mind, it was about getting them to feel safe enough to have the confidence to play the roles that they agreed to play. It wasn't about the other person at all.
I appreciate your discussing the film with me!
I think possibly we could be seeing this film and the motivation of the characters a little differently, too. For example, you see the "act" as something they both wanted to do. I felt like it wasn't something they wanted to do, but rather something they SAID they wanted to do because they didn't want to admit that they had a lot of hang ups around their sexuality. In fact, I think that's where most of the conflict in the film came from. If one of them admitted they had a problem with it, they risked being thought of as 'homophobic' or 'close-mided' or something by their group of friends. And while that is probably ridiculous, and their group would have been mature enough to just let it go, these two guys were not. That. to m, was the whole conflict of the movie... male stubbornness, and how we refuse to back down or admit when we're wrong. it's probably behind the whole reason why we dont ask for directions, too!
But it could just be that we saw it differently. That doesnt mean one of us is wrong. movies with well written characters allow this type of motivation.
I think you brought up a spot on question... in your 4th paragraph, i think this is exactly the way they would have to approach it. Now, its a bit different from your example because we are talking about just kissing vs the two of them wanting to actually do the act, and there are, you will understand, added mechanics involved, right? Now if i put myself in that situation, the ONLY way i would be able to do it wold be to cowboy up, as you say, and do it. The less thinking, the better. I would almost have to put myself into the mindset of being somewhere else, with someone else (or thinking about the "prize" being offered in your example). What would NOT work would be anything that made me think more about the situation. I think if I started out by touching, I would be in a place very quickly where i would not be able to perform at all... and I think that they probably did get to the point you wanted to see... but i can tell you, as a man, that attraction does actually have to happen at some level for the "mechanics" to work. and i think they probably psyched themselves out by putting so much emphasis on what was supposed to happen that there was simply no way they could get close, and this is where , like i was saying, getting intimate with each other would probably make them less aroused than more.
I think we may have stumbled here on a really interesting way that men and women view sex and intimacy. Possibly even the nature of male and female friendships. You mentioned that you would be able to make out with your best friend by simply remembering that you had agreed to do it and that would be enough to bolster your courage. I am guessing, although you didnt say this but you sort of mentioned in other context, that the fact that there is some intimacy there, and a certain comfort level, would probably make it easier for you. I can tell you that the fact that I knew the person involved would make it MORE difficult for me personally.
I think there are probably a number of factors involved. Obviously, society is a lot more accepting of same sex experimentation between women than men. I think that intimacy is also such a huge factor in female sexuality plays a part too. I heard a stand up comic once say that women fear that a stranger may try and have sex with her, and a man fantasizes about this same thing. At the same time, there is some truth to the whole male viewpoint that marriage is a prison, etc (Not that marriage actually is a prison, but that men see it that way) .
I think that this movie might really be bringing up how men deal with intimacy. It wasn't really about them being safe, it is just about how, for men, it may be immature, but it might just come down to attraction. I do appreciate your point of view, and I think there is a lot of validity to it. I just don't know, for me, if it would be possible to take on something like the project in this film. I do know that I don't think touching would help me ;)
But thank you for discussing with me as well.
I think our biggest communication problem is that you responded to my post arguing that my assertion that intimacy would result in sexual attraction between the two men was incorrect. The trouble is, I never made that assertion. Even in my original post, I fully expected them to give up the project in the end because of their lack of sexual attraction to each other, even after the "intimacy exercises."
Then, if they just looked at each other and said Hey, I love you man, and you just don't rev my engine that way, it really would have better accomplished what they started out to do. (Assuming, of course, that the inclusion of penetration was not a requirement of the contest.)
you know, after two and a half years, you have made your argument in such a way that get exactly what you are talking about. i think i thought your original post was saying that if they had just tried harder (ie the intimacy exercises, etc) that they could have gone through with it. now i get what you mean. perfectly illustrated. you have done the impressive... made the movie better by talking about it.
there you go. well done, ma'am!
is it really true that over 1/2 the women in the world cannot have vaginal orgasms? or is it that they are capable and just have not? i get that the pleasure center is not located in the vagina, and i've heard this sta before... does it mean that they cant have an orgasm that is caused by the fabled graffenburg spot, or that their physiology is such that the clitori cannot be stimulated during intercourse? or am i being ridiculous assuming that, as a woman, you would know these things?
anyway, interesting talk. interesting points.
thanks again
is it really true that over 1/2 the women in the world cannot have vaginal orgasms?
[deleted]
[deleted]
You know, I somehow feel better about the film after reading this. They should just append this post to right before the credits roll.
shareYea, I thought the same thing! '=)
shareI think Andrew looked very sad at the end that they never consummated the relationship. Really, I thought if anyone was really gay here, it was Ben, but they both were waiting for the other to take charge and make it happen, and it never did.
I also think they'll spend the rest of their lives regretting it – not what they did, but that they didn't do it.