MovieChat Forums > Fat Head (2009) Discussion > Did Very Little to Rebut Spurlock; from ...

Did Very Little to Rebut Spurlock; from a voice of the ETERNAL RIGHT


A lot of the comments expressing support for Lee Doren's simplistic and predictable libertarian defense of Ronald McDonald heaped untold praise on a movie called Fat Head, which takes direct aim at one of my pesonal favorites, Super-Size Me.
I just watched it now. I will say the film, in my view, does little to retort Spurlock in any meaningful way. First, Noughton did not eat McDonald's the way most people do, avodiing excess calories, and eschewing in particular fries, sodas, and other items heavy in empty carbohydrates and sugars. If anything, his experiment is far less typical of people who eat at McDonald's than Spurlocks. Therefore, it can hardly be considered to bear any relevance on what this schlock does to the average American diet.
Going beyond that, the film directs a lot of firepower attacking government recommendations on a whole host of things, from the fallacy of the BMI index to the absurd notion that a diet should be based on carbs. He also rightly condemns a vegetarian diet as unhealthy. This is the bulk of the film, and it certainly raises some interesting points, but I do not see how it nullifies the most blatantly obvious fact that fast food is pretty much empty calories. I never believed that beef or animal fat is really that bad for you. For me it is the grease, the sodium, sugar, and empty carbs that are the obvious enemies.
As an interesting aside, he suggests that children are likely to consume more calories at a ma and pa diner than McDoanlds. The problem is that, at the prior, you are far less apt to eat empty calories.
Most importantly, he gives the shortest shrift to the effect that multi billion dollar advertising campaigns targeting children have on their minds and dare I say souls. This to me is one of the most egregious failures. His attitude is that people can be left to their own common sense as to what is good for them or not. Contrary to his dimissive attitude, the effect that such campaigns have on children--indeed all messages towads children generally--cannot be overstated. He simply dismisses the whole issue that it is up to the parents. Spurlock's segment on this refutes this notion far more succintcly than I ever could.
To close I thought I would submit one of the few critical articles I could find--alas from a vegan

http://botheyes.wordpress.com/2011/03/13/fat-head/

This libertarian gobbly goop really sticks in my craw, saying not just people, but faceless multinational corporations can do whateeer the f * c k they want, irrespective of the consequences, remaining steadfastly and resolutely ignorant of the very simple and self-evident principle that no man is an island, that what other people do affects you and me, just as what you and I do affects those around us. These people are usually nothing more than crass shills for corporate interests, advocating the absolute anarchy and chaos of a laissez-faire free for all. I have always believed that in many ways, less freedom is more, and these anything goes libertarian types prove it. That these corporate cronies advocating marketplace anarchy and lawlessness are to be the response to the left in this country disgusts me. The real right-wing, the eternal right, must resist these shills as steadfastly as the left.

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This is discussion forum and not a cut and past silly diatribe forum.

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way not to address the issues, PUP

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What issue? The meandering chunk of sillyness? It's silly. Okay, addressed.

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Well you can start off with this:

First, Noughton did not eat McDonald's the way most people do, avodiing excess calories, and eschewing in particular fries, sodas, and other items heavy in empty carbohydrates and sugars. If anything, his experiment is far less typical of people who eat at McDonald's than Spurlocks. Therefore, it can hardly be considered to bear any relevance on what this schlock does to the average American diet.

To put it another way, his dietary experiment in no way reflects fastfood as it is typically consumed. Address that, or piss off.

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Neither of these movies is about "reflecting fastfood as it is typically consumed."

You're forgetting one of the premises for this guy's diet. He assumes you have a working brain. The whole point of his diet is to show that fast food isn't inherently bad if you use your brain to make choices.

Spurlock's diet is nowhere near closer to what normal people eat. They may have a high calorie meal from McDonalds but they probably won't cram 5000 calories worth. That is not typical so why are you using it to support Spurlock? Neither of these movies shows a typical diet, people don't typically eat fast food 7 days a week, 3 times a day.

This to me is one of the most egregious failures. His attitude is that people can be left to their own common sense as to what is good for them or not.


I guess I just have more faith in my common man than you. I agree that this documentary glosses over the impact of marketing, I believe the impact is greater than he implies. But that doesn't mean suddenly no one has a brain. People have to take responsibility for themselves. And the point of the documentary is that if you do that, you can even lose weight while eating at McDonalds, plain and simple.

EDIT: I now realize though I probably shouldn't have bothered writing this, because it's clear from the rest of his posts here that he was a bit of a nutcase, ranting about porn and facism.

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You're forgetting one of the premises for this guy's diet. He assumes you have a working brain. The whole point of his diet is to show that fast food isn't inherently bad if you use your brain to make choices.

If you have a "working brain" and "use your brain to make choices," you won't eat fast food in the first place.
I understand that Spurlock's premise is a bit of a gimmick. The idea though is to condense several years of this sort of diet in 30 days. The methodology is wildly flawed from a strictly clinical, scientific perspective: study composed of one, condensing long term effects into a crash diet in 30 days, switching from a radical, mostly vegan diet, and so on. Still I think it shows that this slop IS intrinsically bad.
Again, the problem with this guy is that his premise of cherry picking and calorie counting is not at all reflected in your typical fast food customer. It just is not, and all one has to do is go into any McDonald's to see that.
Furthermore, I submit this is a legitimate government interest. What if everyone was raised on burgers on fries and soda from childhood on? A nation could not field armed forces to fight a war, it could not even field proper law enforcement.
This is why I am a fascist. What other people do, from single motherhood, to promiscuity, to drug use, to eating this poisonous slop, effects everyone else. People should NOT have the freedom to do whatever they please, they should only the freedom to do what is right, and should persuaded by gentler or less gentler means, to quote Thomas Carlyle from Shooting Niagra Falls, from doing so. That starts with a nice friendly conversation, to instruments of bondage, to the gallows if need be.

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Spurlock did not really show that it was intrinsically bad, because 5000 calories of anything would have made him sick and caused weight gain as well. You have the very same elitist attitude that Fat Head was talking about.

Your theoretical nation sounds pretty horrible. I for one will enjoy as much promiscuous sex and burgers as I decide for myself. I'll have an enjoyable life while making choices every step of the way. If a parent can not teach their child nutrition then that's on them.

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yes and your choices adversely afect, sometimes ruin the lives of others. For instances, the unintended consequences of single motherhood are only now coming home to roost:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opc_mIckXXQ&list=FLIAikk8vEcea4L5i0BSjFdQ&index=2

I already addressed the imperfections in Spurlock's gimmick. Although there are limitations, they are far less problematic than this clown, whose habits bear no similarities to virtually all fast food patrons.

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If you don't trust average people to decide basic food choices for themselves, how exactly can you trust a government to dictate the criteria for the "freedom to do what is right?" A big part of this documentary was about the government being wrong. So I'm curious just how you can rationalize that.

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It is for the same reason, for example, the EU bans high fructose corn syrup. The health and well being of a citizenry is a legitmate state interest. Without it, you can field armed forces to fight in wars (or deter war from happening in the first place). You cannot even field law enforcement.
And again, personal choice is an asbolute chimera given the billions of dollars of advertisng spent targeting the impressionable minds of children.
The government is sometimes wrong, sometimes right. The American government sucks, European goverments are generally far more competent, which says something about Euripeans, and may be that the multiculti mousketeers are more than a little misguided.

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To the extent Spurlock's experiment attempts to CONDENSE long-term binging on this sclock into a 30 day period, it is not all that surprising. More importantly, neither of the faults you complain about invalidate the fact that Spurlock more or less ate as many patrons do. You will doubtlessly recall the segment about heavy and super-heavy "users."
As far as saying no to the lure of Super-Size me, it is not about ability, but propesnity driven by the perceived bargain--pay 50 cents for for a cola the size of a bathtub. It is an easy thing to do, and even with this film, there is still not enough public awareness about the true costs of this in terms of calories and the effect on one's health.
As much as I would love to ban fastfood with the ferocity of strong-arm and jackboot, that is not going to happen anytime soon, as it more likely will never happen. Raising awareness and imposing sensible restrictions on commerical advertising, which is regarded as a lower form of speech not entitled to full protection under the First AMendment, packaging and so on seems pretty tame. You fools deluded by "liberterian" ideology advance by corporate shills like the Free Enterprise Institute are lapping up at the propaganda that raising awareness and advocating modest restrictions on commercial activity is somehow tantamount to a total ban.
Again I myself do not believe in democracy, as I believe that less freedom is more, that the only freedom one really needs is the freedom to do what is right, but I am certainly in the minority on that. To the extent we live, for better or more likely worse, in a liberal democracy and socalled free market system, these entities are never going away. All that wiill happen in common sense restrictions and regulations and increased awareness, and eve at they scream foul.

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I dispute your assertion re unlimited soda, but it is not germane to the marketing technique involved. Movie theatres do the same with their overpriced popcorn. Popcorn is cheap as dirt. The charge five to six bucks for a small container that is suitable as a snack, and for a dollar more you can get twice or more, with 500-1000 more calories. Most people do not think of the cost of the extra calories. And so you miss the point.
I will confess that I do not believe in Freedom--I am a fascist, through and through, but in a sense not understood since the term has lost meaning.
Freedom means people can do whatever they want, irrespecitve of teh consequencees to others. Look at women in the past generation or so, and compare them with the women 60 years ago. More freedom has left to self-destructive tendencies. We have a generation of sluts, of daddies princesses cocmpletely absorbed in celebrity gossip and reality tv. This is what freedom means. But consider how recent generations of men and women have fared with such mothering, and the lack of fathering in single homes.
Further consider the epidemic of porn in this country, and ask yourself what the long term consequences of it really are. Think of Juliann Moore's character in Boogie Nights, and the effet her life choices had on her status as a mother, as just one example.
Another example--consider the various drug epidemics that have destroyed countless lives in this country, all for the sake of "Freedom." The most recent one has been the meth epidemic, which has probably been the most startling.
When I rewatched Valkyrie, I thought to myself that despite all the criticsms fo that regime, the men were manly, and teh women were femine, and healthy. No pornstars (or other inditia of the slut generation or generations), no degenerate rap or other pop music, no *beep* poisonous fast food, the list goes on (and on). To me it shows man should NOT be free.
This is all tangential as any sort of DICTAT along those lines won't be coming around anytime soon. But it does demonstrate what a fallacy the notion of Freedom is.
And by the way, norms and mores are always decided by others. Everything comes down to a subjective moral judgment. There are laws against beastialit beause other people ahve decided those who want to do it should not be free to do so, even though in many instances it poses no health risks whatsoever to the person or the animal.

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Your response really beggars belief. I am not even sure that it warrants a response.
As you stated, your position is this "If freedom means the end of the human race, it's worth it."
No it is most certainly not.
I can articulate the principles at hand, but I cannot comprehend them for you. I submitted the fictional example of Amber Waves from Boogie Nights, who grew up in the late 60s and 70s, just when such unbridled freedom and libertinism took hold. Note in many ways her choices were dictated in the place and time period she grew up in--chances are if she grew up in the Bund der Deutscher Maedel in 1930s Germany or an Amish plantation, in which society would have created far different experinces for her than some tart winding up in the San Fernando Valley in the late 70s, she would have turned out just a little different.
In this example we see how the "right' for people to do whatever the *beep* they want is destructive. It destroyed her faculties as a mother, and doubtlessly has had an incalculable effect on her child. And the best part is, this is not isolated. We now see GENERATIONS of this. The ramifcations of this on other societal ills, from crime to the further break down of the family, are also incalcuable.
I myself come from a broken home, and know all too well the costs of such destructive irresponsiblity.
This is not really relative to the movie itself--except that it does show how WHAT OTHERS DO AFFECTS EVERYONE ELSE. No man is an island. In relation to the issues at hand more directly, imagine if current dietary trends take even greater hold-imagine if almost everyone was a heavy or super user of this schlock, to coin the terms from internal McDonald's documents as exposed by Spurlock. Imagine the effect it would have on the health of the nation, the cost of healthcare, even the ability to fight wars or field law enforcement.
You obviously do not understand this principle. But it is my hope that others joining us in progress can be made to understand why Freedom is a false standard. Again, the only freedom one needs is the freedom to do what is right.
Do not bother responding because I will not respond further, as your libertarian ideology is tantamount to delerium.

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@fwsauerteig - The irony of you posting on a forum with a message of less freedom is hilarious. We are too busy enjoying our freedom to assemble and discuss to listen to garbage like you're spitting.

If you want us to live in cages why come out of yours?

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" I do not believe in Freedom--I am a fascist, through and through."

Seeg HEIL!

Ant so you meh dikk into za Grepp Nutz - but nut unteel za Fuhrer say VENN!!

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One more thing, it is not so much about the number of calories, but the sort of quality you consume. . .. This is because highly activev lifestyles require far greater calories.

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Typical right wing response to you fwsauerteig, instead of addressing what you say, posters make a side comment and think that's good enough to be considered a rebuttal.

Example.

I might write.
"Eating high fat/saturated fat/sodeim diet is not good for you."

One of these sort of supports replies.
"It's Sodium you moron, your entire comment is not void."

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I AM RIGHT-WING. I am the REAL-RIGHT WING, a secular Pat Buchanan more in the European mold. Think Jean Marie le Pen, the late Joerg Haider, and so on.
Libertarianism is not right wing, nor is it conservative, as much of it advocates promisicutiy, drug use, the list goes on (and on) It is a uniquely naive ideology fueled by corproate interests, interests that have no allegiance to country or anything.
What people do not understand is that what other people do affects other people. I know because I came up in a broken home--my mother very much taken in by the free love, anyhting goes mentality that flourished in the 60s.

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I didn't have time to read through all the responses but here's my two cents:

Libertarians either live in some naive, idealistic world where they think poor people actually care enough to go to the public library and research cheeseburger nutrition fact when they are struggling just afford food in the first place (see Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs) or they just don't care about their fellow man. Fast food is fast and cheap; it's an offer too tempting AND ubiquitous to avoid for some people, both with limited financial means and those in a time crunch. And yes, this applies to up-sized, super sized portions that are available for a measly 10 cents extra...it's a bit of marketing coercion.In conclusion, this clip sums up what I'm trying to express:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTWr2eqz3b0&playnext=1&list=PLA462025FAEED2708

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Well stated.

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Yea, the usual elitist attitude that everyone one else is stupid. Restaurant food is not cheaper anyway. Cheapest place to get a lot of calories would be like a Sam's Club or just your standard grocery store.

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Nicholas-Wafer, PERFECT!

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I know this thread is years old, but talk about missing the message. What arrogance! Who are you to speak for poor people in such a way? You're proving the point of the documentary that spoke about the insulting nature of super size me towards the poor. You're basically saying they can't help themselves. Why? They're too lazy and/or stupid?

And don't give me the "cheap" argument - fast food is most certainly not cheap. Time? You have time to sit down at McDonalds for half an hour but you don't have time to thaw a frozen meal from the grocery store that costs $1.50 and takes 10 minutes to microwave? If you want to argue that whole foods market and other places that sell so-called good for you food are too expensive then great, I can support that. But this BS about fast food being cheap is garbage.

This documentary is good because the way I see it, it tells people to research your weight problem if you feel you have a problem instead of watching a hoity-toity documentary that was probably never even seen by stupid poor people because they don't watch documentaries (sarcasm). But if they did they'd know it wasn't their fault... BS. This is about privileged people thinking they know what's best for everybody else. Nothing more.

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