MovieChat Forums > Cat Dancers (2008) Discussion > The Holes in Ron's Story

The Holes in Ron's Story

posted 13 years ago by so_cold
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Spoilers.......I did like the film, watching their old shows, and the music fit the tense moments, but because Joy and Chuck weren't there to tell their full side of the story, it seemed all to good to be true. I don't think Ron told the total truth, I don't think it was all perfect in their marriage, if it was, they wouldn't have both gone after little Chuck. Things don't add up, especially when Ron says that the builders were there so he took Jupiter out. Like Chuck's mother said, why not leave the tigers where they were? Being a cat expert, didn't he think that the cats would get agitated being around strangers? Why take Jupiter, who he knew was stubborn and volatile, with a mean streak? If Chuck was Jupiter's caretaker, why not let him handle it when he got up and deal with ones he knew he could control better.

As for Joy, I don't think she was really happy with Ron towards the end. I think she grew strong feelings for Chuck. I don't think she'd be so depressed and suicidal over just a "friend" or a casual partner. When She told Ron what she was going to do he said he said "We can get through this, we have each other" and she said "No" Ron knew he wasn't enough for her anymore, and I think he knew that a long time ago. He could have gotten her sectioned for her own safety. Ron said that doctors were so worried about her that they were going to take her to hospital the next day, so why didn't he leave her in bed? He said "I didn't want her being taken away from me" So he won't let her get treated, but will take her out to a literal "Lion's den" Where's the sense in that?

Chuck sounded troubled, he sounded like a runaway who was used by both of them. Ron said in one clip, "he was like a son to me" if so, why even think about sleeping with him? Ron said when Joy came back and she knew, she said "I saw him first" Which meant that she was territorial over him. Ron also said when talking about him and Chuck "it wasn't rape" it just sounded like a really odd thing to say if a person is talking about a consensual relationship. I can't see Chuck coming on to Ron, a married man old enough to be his father. He'd have nothing to gain, if Ron rejected him, he'd have no job. Ron's definately hiding something when it comes to how and what happened with Chuck. But if things had turned out differently with all of them, I think Chuck and Joy would possibly be living together today.

[–] Gong5 13 years ago

don't be so harsh on Ron, I feel he doesn't deserve it.

[–] so_cold 13 years ago

I don't think Ron and Joy deserved to be torn to shreds either, and Ron had a helping hand in that. I think he uses his "camp" friendly act to make himself seem harmless, but I think he's quite manipulative and sly. He was meant to be in charge of Jupiter holding the lead, but I don't think he was when Jupiter bit Chuck. He lets a suicidal Joy go to the carriage house, and he brings Jupiter over to her. Why? He instigated both situations, he's responsible for their deaths. You don't put people you love into those types of situations just because you're eccentric. I think Ron did it because it benefited him. He felt left out by Chuck and Joy. Let's face it, if Ron was the one that had died would Joy be thinking about suicide?

God no, not while she still had young Chuck on her arm. I think Ron was jealous because Joy and Chuck got most of the attention, from the media, the audience, the cats. Ron was part of a threesome but had no-one, I'm not sure how much of that I believe either. Why would Chuck become bedfellows with either of them? Ron says about their first time "It wasn't a rape" That sounded weird. Chuck would never have willingly come on to Ron. Ron must have paid him, abused him, or got him really really drunk.

[–] Gong5 13 years ago

I don't know what your beef with Ron is but that's just wild speculation what you are saying, and very unfounded speculation for that matter. You don't know anything about the private life of these people, and you 've managed to construct a story of your own, that's good and dandy had this been fiction, but it's offensive to the survivor, Ron. I am not in principle against speculating, but I hardly think what you are saying hardly makes any sense.

They 've been living together 14 years, why would he all of a sudden Ron decide to instigate their deaths? It's not as if after a few years in the menage a trois that this happened, Joy and Ron where were in their sixties, they d been together with Chuck for more time than most married people have ever been. 14 years mean that these people had a lot in common and were a functional unit, why would he want the two people closest to him to go.

Makes no sense. There's no motive. And what about the police, surely if a couple of deaths occur within a month, involving big cats and some weirdo (to the eyes of coppers that is) they wouldn't like anything more than to hold him responsible, but there's not even a hint that anyone was even suspicious of it, let alone investigate. Yet you who never witnessed all that, you 've got it pegged and you know how it was and they didn't. That doesn't make any sense either.

And why would chuck become bed fellow with them? Well, he loved them it seems, their 3some worked, 14 years is a long, long time to be with someone you don't love under coercion.

Maybe there's a threat there to your established viewpoint on life in this story, that's why you are looking to find holes in it, but there's hardly any evidence to what you are saying.

[–] so_cold 13 years ago

I was almost afraid to go on this one considering what you'd put in other posts, but you edited your first response. Your first reply said that you could see some points, then you came to Ron's defense. Sure they all lived together for a long time, but there must have been arguments somewhere down the line. There's no such thing as a perfect relationship.

Ron was meant to be holding jupiter when Chuck came outside from "Being on the computer all night" But he didn't, the tiger was able to snap at him because Ron dropped control. You don't find Joy's death the slightest bit fishy? She tells Ron she's suicidal and Ron lets her go to the carriage house. She doesn't get out of bed and he's meant to be taking care of her, but he never saw her drink. She doesn't go to the bathroom, she doesn't wash, he can smell that, but he can't smell the alcohol. The room smells so bad, he gets a fan, but he has no idea she's over the limit. Why bring over Jupiter, the most stubborn tiger with a attitude? He knew something was going to happen. If he really loved Chuck and Joy, he wouldn't have put them in that position.

Ron chose to let them go, because they were pushing him out and he wasn't happy. Ron's smart. He's knows the police aren't going to look into planned tiger attacks it sounds ridiculous, and Ron knows that. You just can't accept Ron's really sneaky. Ron and Joy shouldn't have made advances towards Chuck. That threesome was just wrong, purely because of the age difference. They were twice his age, they had no right to instigate a relationship with him, that's just creepy. Why would Chuck stay? He's in his dream job and I think the couple manipulated him. If he rejected both of them, I doubt they would have let him visit the cats.

[–] Gong5 13 years ago

look you do raise some very interesting points of suspicion but I am not a judge, nor do I have anything but a infinitesimally small knowledge of the story, so how can I opine categorically and who am I to condemn Ron? The alcohol level of Joy for example does nag me too.

As for the police not being suspicious I do not agree. Of all places in the states where people are so eager to put other people behind bars, and inject them with lethal dosages of drugs, I am quite sure that the police would take up any inkling they had to lock Ron up especially so when Ron would clash with so many of their own preconceptions of normality. Look at people here calling him a freak, I am sure the average Joe Copper would love to lock him up.

I have to say however that you do seem like a very nice person and I do respect your point of view, even if it sounds rather harsh to me. At the end of the day, I might be too lenient, cause sometimes I am.

As for the rightness or wrongness of the threesome and the age difference, again I can't opine on this, if that's what made these people happy good for them. Chuck was an adult, If he had been coerced for 14 years and been manipulated by Ron and Joy, surely the blame is in his upbringing and his past (that I know nothing of) more than anything else. Isn't it? What's more, Chuck, this runaway might have actually found some solace and happiness with him, which is something.

May I ask if you had any prior knowledge of this story before the documentary? Why is Ron mentioned as Guay (sp?) in news items prior to the docu and Joy as Doris, when she signed her teenage letter to Ron as Joy?

All in all you might I want to say that you might have your suspicions but because Ron might be actually reading this, I would like to spare this guy from any more grief, and even if he did do something dreadful which I find hard to believe, it's a shame to add more bad will and grief to someone who lost the two people he loved the most, in his own way of course. And that last bit is something I think we can't doubt.

[–] so_cold 13 years ago

I understand that you don't want to condemn Ron, but in the documentary he wasn't called out on anything, he wasn't asked questions and another point of view wasn't brought in, so it seemed "Holier than thou" and a lot of people aren't fooled. The alcohol level does bother you because it's crazy that devoted husband Ron had No clue. Does he really think the viewers are complete idiots?

As far as the police go, I get what you're saying, but because Tigers are seen natural predators by humans, it's easier for Ron to use Jupiter as a furry gun. Especially considering Jupiter's attitude, it's easier for the police to say "Trainers are getting attacked by their cats, that's what happens" and I think Ron was counting on that. I just think he was instrumental in both deaths.

I don't get how you can think I'm nice because of my posts. You're right, I'm really judgemental towards both the Holidays. But I think your pity for Ron is slightly blinding you to how manipulative this man really is. I'm not shocked by the threesome, I've seen Jerry springer, these people were way ahead of their time. It's the age difference that creeps me out. It bad to speak ill of the dead, but I blame Ron and Joy for that. What people want to do behind close doors is private, three twenty year olds, three forty year olds, adults can do what they want, but Chuck was vulnerable and they both knew it. They give him a chance to work with these beautiful animals, and then start coming onto him. That's like waving a lollipop in front of a child's face and then saying "you have to do this first" I know Chuck was of the legal age but I think they preyed on him.

I can't just blame Ron because he's the guy, I also blame Joy too. Being older than him I think they were morally irresponsible they both took advantage of him. I've never seen Chuck's mother, but I can almost guarantee that when this was going on, his mother looked younger than Joy. The woman had a slim body women in their twenties could be envious over, but facially she aged badly. I just don't think that Chuck wanted to get involved with a married couple physically. I do agree that his past may have had something to do with it, but I don't think it was totally to blame. I just don't think Ron and Joy should have gone near him. If Chuck felt like he had to give his body away to people twice his age just to be stable in life, then is that real happiness?

I didn't have prior knowledge of the story before the documentary, but the reason Ron is mentioned as Guay is because that's his real Surname and Joy's. They used "Holiday" as a stage name. Here's an article:

www.sptimes.com/News/112799/.../A_lasting_trust_in_ti.shtml -

I also don't get that Ron said Chuck had been on the computer all night, but it sounds like he took Jupiter out first. Why tell Joy to leave him in bed, then take out Chuck's cat first so he'd have to come down in a tired state anyway? As narcissistic as I think Ron is, I don't think he's reading this board. He's got solo attention from the tragedies, I think now he's got that I don't think he'll scan anything here. He was supposed to be holding Jupiter's lead when Chuck came, and no-one, no matter how camp or eccentric would let a suicidal anorexic and possibly drunk woman near a tabby-cat, let alone Diva and Shercon the nice ones. So when he said "I brought jupiter" in his own words, it just sounded like a death-trap.

[–] Gong5 13 years ago

hmm... first off I said you seem like a nice person because despite our disagreement you are being polite, which is very infrequent in these boards. You are also emoting to a story that despite its tragicness has left almost everyone in these boards aloof. That at least shows you are not, well, so cold as some are.

I understand your point of view. But I think our discussion is more about ourselves and our perceptions of this story than it is about facts, since we have very scarce facts here. Even the point you stress that we only heard from Ron is by itself making facts even scarcer. And I think your judgement here is a need for closure and justice and what you see as unjust, Ron's behavior. I on the other hand don't think that filling those wholes with a "guilty" verdict brings any closure or real justice.

As for your arguments, I can't say of course that they don't merit any consideration, and some of them btw do sound convincing, esp. what you said in closing.

Having said that, there are serious holes in them, and there are alternative takes. For example yes you can take a suicidal woman to see the tiger Jupiter, if you 've lived with tigers so long and you consider them your children that are as much capable of hurting you as any child is capable of killing their parent. If anyone thought that their birth child by accident had hurt a loved one, wouldn't they approach that child? We have Joy's video where she is seen fully ascribing human emotions to Jupiter after Chuck's death. These people were one with their animals. You can also not notice immediately someone taking a bottle of vodka say to their room and drinking it, all the more so when depression can mask intoxication.

In terms of the threesome and moral responsibility....well that's a big discussion, I don't really think we can have it here... His mom and dad were morally responsible too for raising up Chuck to not be susceptible to manipulation as I said, but they ended up making him a runaway at the end. And he wasn't a child with a lollipop, we was an adult. Obviously there was an element in Chuck that was looking for a surrogate family. I don't think even you can deny this. And obviously a younger person is almost always desirable by older people. Is the younger person not morally responsible for luring older adults? Can't they be predatory too. They sure can.

Wasn't Chuck benefitting from their experience in the biz? Didn't they teach him everything in terms of cats? They did. Couldn't he theoretically have walked away over these 14 years with a nice sum of his own to get his own cats, as well as knowledge of how to raise them and include them in an act. But he didn't. Why? Was he chained? No. Was he brainwashed and segregated from the rest of the world so much? Possibly. Can we make a sound judgement on what the case was? I would say we can't.

Even if we take the worst scenario where you ask is that real happiness to give your body away to to older people just to be stable? Well, as evidenced by the number of people who do it, it might not be "real" happiness, but it's something, and people do it all the time. Who are we to say that they shouldn't? We might not like it. I don't. But people do all sorts of things detrimental in some way to them to maintain a minimum of sanity, and to go on, and almost always going on takes precedence over most other considerations. If that was Chuck's way to go on, if that was the Holiday's way to manage to go on with their lives, so be it. Can the Holidays be considered morally reprehensible? Maybe, I am starting to side with you there, but not more so than Chuck's family I would say. But they were human after all, as I have been repeating, during these 14 years, Chuck could have left, he didn't.

Maybe, in yet another take, some part of Ron, did want both of them dead, and didn't really act as responsibly as he should have. But these people did have something in them that allured them to danger. Danger is close to a death wish a lot of times. Maybe Joy's death was a mercy killing for a woman who didn't want to go on, maybe Ron was taking her lead and doing her wish, on a subconscious level....

I assumed holiday was their stage name, but I didn't understand why Joy was referred to as Doris by these old reports, when she signed her name as Joy in her teenage letter to Ron. Come to think of it now maybe even at that young age she'd chosen a stage name, Joy.

Lastly, yes, my pity for Ron can get in the way of my sound judgment. But I think this story, at this moment, warrants pity for everyone involved, not judgment.

Btw, am I right in my assumption that you are a girl and not a guy?

[–] so_cold 13 years ago

I just don't agree with Ron's choice's, there were two preventable deaths and he was to blame. Your're right, there are a lack of facts and just because I think he's guilty, it doesn't bring any closure to the situation, because Ron is never gonna get prison time. I don't think he's going to confess either. As you said there are lack of facts, but I think that's the director's fault. They didn't talk to one friend of Joy's, they were touring all over the place and they couldn't have brought on one close friend or family member? Thrown a bit of money at the workmen who were at the gate that could have seen Chuck's "accident?" It's odd.

It's easy to consider the tigers as children, but there are a lot of differences between humans children, and seeing wild cats as your children. Ron and Joy were/are cat experts, because of their enviroment the cats have that survival instinct. To answer your question, yes I'm a girl, and I don't have a maternal instinct especially when it applies to large cats. If a human parent has an argument with their child, in some rare cases you hear of kids killing their parents, but most times kids just go upstairs and slam the door. Tigers can't verbally communicate, and as you've seen on the documentary, accidently kill their caretakers. I didn't really see Jupiter as a child, he seemed like a surly teenager with a superiority complex. Ron said they gave all their tigers the same loving and affection, but I don't think that's true. If your career is rocketing because of one tiger you're gonna give that tiger special treatment, whether Ron wants to admit that or not. If you want to see a golden tiger, you can just turn on the discovery channel. Jupiter was treated better because he was rare, that treatment fed his ego, that's what I think anyway.

Depression masking intoxication? Maybe if she'd had a couple of glasses, but two times over the legal limit? I just wonder if Joy could even walk in a straight line at that point. Ron never should have let her out, even if she was sober. The woman wasn't eating, she went outside in pyjamas, her body was probably struggling for warmth anyway, because her body ate away at her fat trying to keep her alive, and Ron didn't think she'd be a little shaky? This woman had been in bed for how long, this is the first time she's been out of the house in a while and he chose to bring out Jupiter, who wasn't like the other cats. Ron's known Jupiter all his life, the viewer's only known the cat for five minutes, but it seems like a bad idea. Even people who support Ron know that.

I think Chuck was confused and lonely. I think the holidays were too to some extent, but I can't excuse what they both did. They had a chance to help this kid, be a kind of emotional backbone for him and they didn't, they had to take it to that level and two adults that can't put their own needs aside because they couldn't see how damaged this kid was is quite selfish. I don't believe Chuck's family were the best, but who's is. Gong5 you seem opened minded that's rare, considering the KKK gay-bashing that goes on, on these boards. You're right, young people over eighteen can be predators, but with Chuck, judging from the documentary alone, I don't think he was like that.

The holidays could have been a friendly family unit but chose not to do that. How can Ron possibly say. "He was like a son to me" and then say "it just happened one night" if the lines are that blurred, why cross it in the first place. Also anyone who even thinks of the line "It wasn't a rape" let alone says it, is hiding something. Maybe he's trying to justify something to himself. As I said before, I've never heard someone talk about a consensual relationship, by using that word, IMO, it sounds like a contradiction. Joy's reaction the whole: "I saw him first" how highschool can one person get, she's agruing about sharing a man/boy who's more than half her age with her own husband, something's not right there.

Chuck could have left but going from a broke homeless runaway, to having a dream job and actually sleeping in a bed could outweigh both of his bosses advances. Maybe he hadn't exprienced family love and thought getting physical was one of the same. This kid was confused, hurt, but good looking with a need to please. The perfect target. Someone with Ron's ego could handle a threesome, but he couldn't handle Chuck's competition. He'd known Joy nearly all her life, he quit ballet, she soon followed. He pressed for the cat shows, she did all the research. She did what he wanted without question, she trusted him fully.

Chuck comes along and Joy started having a physical relationship with him first, that must have been quite a blow to Ron, his wife is like a siamese twin until she gets her head turned by good looking Chuck, a kid she's barely known for five minutes. He could feel like he's losing her, so gets in on the act too. It's funny that when Ron asked Joy about a white tiger for the act she said no, then he goes to Chuck who goes to Joy and surprise surprise Jupiter's in the bath for a rinse. Ron could have become paranoid, even though he was married to Joy, they were in seperate rooms. He had no clue how many times she enjoyed Chuck's "company" alone. He could have suspected that Joy was falling for him, she may have wanted a divorce to focus on her business the new cat, the new man, that gave her a new lease on life.

Jupiter also chose Chuck too, and he was Ron's idea. Ron said himself he wanted Jupiter to chose him desperately. Maybe to prove he could be a favourite, maybe to prove to Chuck that he didn't have a hold over everyone. The camera loved Chuck, he was on TV doing interviews on every show known to man. The only time Ron got on TV was when Shogun had a little bout of jungle fever and hid behnd a plant. The idea that he created, that was bringing him the most money was curling up and sleeping on Chuck's lap. Maybe he thought they were going to push him out, ask him to leave, if Joy was falling for Chuck, she could have seen him as marriage material, with Chuck's help she could convince a court to give her ownership of the ranch, especially with Chuck to support her and guide her.

Ron couldn't read her like a book like he could in the early days, he had no idea what thoughts went through his wife's head. Maybe he'd end up with nothing. He uses the workmen as excuse, sets Chuck up. With him out of the picture maybe he thinks they can get back to "normal" but Joy doesn't believe or trust him. She stops eating, stays bedbound, Ron knows why, I think he helped her get out of bed to go to the carriage house. It's dark, she's tired but Ron could want revenge and decided to give her to Jupiter, who in turn, gives her to Chuck.

It's strange that through all of Jupiter's unruly behaviour he doesn't go after Ron. Jupiter doesn't touch a hair on his head. He puts Chuck and Joy in weird situationas with the same volatile cat. He exploits Jupiter's natually "act first, think later" behaviour and gets sympathy for "losing" two people from the public. I really think he would have loved to keep Jupiter though, all that pushing to get him to the ranch and all the attention they received, I think Ron would have fought tooth and nail to keep Jupiter and wouldn't have put him down like he did to Diva and Shercon.

[–] Gong5 13 years ago

If we were in a jury together you 'd have me more convinced than I 'd like to.

Chuck family might have not been the best, but I don't agree with the who is comment really. Of course the answer is no one is, and we all have to deal with this fact, but some families are really very, very dysfunctional and the siblings pay dearly for it. If there's any given in criminal psychology is that the overwhelming majority of abused children do end up being either abusers or abused. There's not a perfect loving home out there (how could there be, we are human after all) but there are some homes that are particularly damaging. A young runaway who doesn't even speak to their mother for 5 years is as good a red flag as any.

I think the Holidays did help Chuck, I think they did become his surrogate family, they did offer him a future, a job, training, care and quite possibly a lot of love too (not solely physical love). But maybe the lines got a bit too blurred, it's no wonder these types of threesomes aren't frequent, because they are not very functional units and they easily fall apart. But these people stayed together for 14 years, there must have been something there other than coercion, there was certainly no apparent physical violence and they also maintained a successful circus act.

And again what you are saying in terms of the relationship dynamics does make some sense but it would make much more sense if we had been looking at a time frame of 1-5 or so years. Then the "new man with the new lease of life" might come into play for example, but it's harder to believe this after 14 years of co-existence. The dynamics of threesomes can be so volatile (I am not talking from first hand experience btw) that things can blow apart very quickly, and that's what happens very, very often. But not so in this case, so I would think there was much more to it. And Chuck might have been a very young man when he met them, but he wasn't so after 14 years, he was 34 then (still quite young of course). Of course one could also say that at this point he was mature enough to potentially take the reigns from Ron and that would have alarmed the very narcissistic Ron.

Yes that late night trip to Jupiter can be considered a bad idea to most people, but then again to the overwhelming majority of people keeping wild tigers from the get go must have been a bad idea, yet it wasn't to these people, and we do know from the tapes that Joy was actively involved after Chuck's death in taping jupiter, studying him, monitoring him so it's not too much of a stretch that after a few drinks she 'd be willing to go test the waters herself. Joy was hardly someone you could call averse to risk, she seemed very, very confident around her cats. Actually she seemed like someone who would in a state of shock lose her better judgment and approach Jupiter regardless of the threat.

Of course her apparent depression and her being suicidal would have incited her even more, and that's were Ron should have held it together and protected her from her self. But that's presupposing that Ron's state of mind was calm and collected too, but should it have been? Even if he had instigated something horrible he must have been suffering too, or at the very least been confused. Moreover, people who spend so much time together from such a young age (siam twins as you said) start sharing much of the same psychic terrain, it's quite possible that her apparent death wish was shared at some deeper level by Ron and that he may have acted out for her, the Joy in him that is might have acted her wish out via him. This might sound peculiar to some people but it's more than perfectly expected. Depressed people also can have a very strong hold on their loved ones, even to the extent where one plays along with their self destructive game out of pity.

One point you missed, that just came to me too while reading your post is this, had Joy had any hint that Ron had been to blame (let alone orchestrating it) for Chuck's death wouldn't she have alerted if not the police, then a few people around her. Of course this can go towards what you are saying too in that she had her suspicions linger inside her, eat her up, and then she conveniently passed away all too quickly.

Do you emote with Chuck mostly btw in this story? It seems that you have a soft spot for him, and maybe that's the dynamic that I am missing and not (fully) siding with your view. Had it been a young attractive girl (I am a guy) in Chuck's place, and Joy in Ron's place I would I am sure be more inclined to judge an alleged perpetrator and not be overcome with pity. We like to have reality conform to our emotional needs sometimes, we construct it thus, rather than the other way around.

[–] so_cold 13 years ago

I'm not saying Chuck's mother is innocent, I just think the couple took advantage of him, I know in real life- sixty olds get with 20 year olds and stuff that's legal, but IMO, it's weird, whoever's doing the chasing. I think they helped him to an extent but sleeping with him was not the answer. It just seemed like a really perverted band aid. I also don't understand why Ron would let her test the waters. If you're drunk, responsible friends won't let you drive home, yet Ron thought it would be OK to bring over an animal that he said himself was a "brat" Ron could have carried out the deathwish, that makes him eligible for manslaughter. I think Joy did blame Ron and had suspicions in order to cope with those , along with Chucks "accident" she drank, withdrew, stopped eating maybe to get back at Ron maybe she didn't think the police would believe her, after all "Jupiter did it" In society men are seen as breadwinners, providers, and protectors.

So it's difficult for society to believe that men can be preyed upon and can be victims of every abuse imaginable, by anyone. I guarantee you, if Chuck was a blonde nineteen year old female called "Carol" for example, and she had Chuck's story, a runaway that joined Ron and Joy and they both began sleeping with her, your first thought would be: how can these people who are almost elderly take advantage of a girl that needed them? You would think of her as trapped and helpless, forced against her will. You'd be ready to hang Ron [especially if you were attracted to her] for seducing a poor innocent girl who was down on her luck. But since it's a guy, your like, he stayed there, was sleeping with both of them, it was his choice, because he loved it. I can't help but view Chuck as a victim because the gender norms don't phase me. He was young, troubled, and Ron and Joy IMO were predators regardless of age, because I don't think he was mentally ready for that. But not everyone will agree with that obviously.

[–] Scarlet-22 11 years ago

The room smells so bad, he gets a fan, but he has no idea she's over the limit.

I thought he put the fan in her room because he was trying to get the smells of food to go into her bedroom so she'd want to eat. (I think Joy was anorexic, caused by the stress of Chuck's death, but I don't think that's Ron's fault, either.) I watched that scene multiple times trying to figure out the whole when/why the fan was in the room. In one of the deleted scenes, he talks about giving her alcohol in an effort to relax her but seems stunned that she was over the legal limit. I do think he's got some explaining to do, but that's a big step to take from "Ron may have been jealous of Chuck and Joy" to "Ron had a hand in Joy and Chuck's death".

That said, it would have been nice to have at least some of Chuck and Joy's sides of the story. The closing song--"What a Beautiful Dancer She Was"--is so dark and so moving it made me cry.

[–] eucalyptaa 12 years ago

The movie was on dutch TV yesterday, we had the exact same feeling about that 'it was not rape' remark. That is a very strange thing to say to describe the start of a relationship, dont know what it was but it was not rape...well than what was it? something close to rape?

Also Chuck did not strike me as being gay.
The relationship between Chuck and Ron and Joy seemed rather incestuous to us. To parental figures adoring their handsome son just a little bit too much.

On the other hand, Chuck could have ran again...why stay 14 years in a situation you don't want to be in, he could have worked with big cats in a circus.

Don't know about the intentional provoking of the catattack though.

Still I felt sorry for Ron, lonely old wigged man, never had a normal gay relationship. Doubtfull if the monks in Thailand will have him in their monestary.

[–] paguy27 11 years ago

so_cold,

you are making wild speculation when all you got for info is one documentary. you know nothing of what really happened in their 3 way relationship. you will never know so it seems very dumb for someone so ignorant to talk as if he knows all. one single documentary is not the whole story so quit trying to make up the rest of it. i actually think joy wanted to be killed by jupiter and put herself in that position but hell if i really know so im not gonna post a bunch of crap as if i DO know. you're like a bad tabloid writer so_cold.