Story


Despite I was impressed the quality of the movie, the story doesn't felt right.

Because Gandalf mentiones Frodo and the ring, but at that point, Gandalf shouldn't have any knowledge about the fate of the ring. Gandalf was all suprised that Bilbo had the one ring, that he has been looking for, at Bilbo's 111th birthday (or actually later).

reply

There is a brief period in the Lord of the Rings both book and movies, where this movie can fit.

Unfortunately I can't remember the books right now, but there IS a period, when Gandalf and Aragorn search for Gollum, only to realize that Sauron got his hands on him first.

It falls between the "Keep it Secret, Keep it Safe" and "Shadows of the Past" in the Fellowhip of the Ring movie, more precisely after Gandalf reads Isildur's tale in Minas Tirith, IMHO, but I may be wrong.

But that way Gandalf would know Frodo has the Ring, since Bilbo "has gone to stay with the Elves. He's left you Bag End... along with all its possessions," but it's not yet before he sends Frodo (and later an eavesdropping Sam) to make for the village of Bree and the Prancing Pony Inn, where Aragorn is to wait for them.

If the Gods want to punish you, they answer your prayers.

reply

I am also a little confused about the storyline.

If this takes place after Gollum has already been to Mordor and 'spills the beans', then why are the orcs still after him?

reply

What makes you think they were after him at the end of the movie? I think, since Gollum survived pretty much intact, that the encounter with the NazgĂșl was just an unlucky accident.

If the Gods want to punish you, they answer your prayers.

reply

Gandalf knew about the ring, but he didn't knew , that it was the ONE ring. Gandalf visited Bilbo to celebrate the birthdays and to know, that the ring is save, because the rings are dangerous, even if it's not the one ring, and gandalf is a very wise man.

so.. then, there is a BIG gap between the birthday and gandalf telling frodo to leave the shire, caused by the fact, that sauron was aware of the name baggins!

the far as I know, gandalf caught him, set him free, because he had mercy.. after that he realized, that the ring WAS the ONE.. he told aragorn to find him, because he knew, that gollum told his story in mordor.

sorry for my english, it's not my main language

reply

Not at the end of the movie, during the movie.

reply

No one sets Gollum free out of kindness; they know how dangerous he is. In the book Aragorn finds Gollum, Gandalf questions him without finding out much and they turn him over to the Elves for guarding. The Elves allow him a short time in the open air (under guard) in a humane (Elvane?) gesture but, during an Orc attack (which may or may not have been planned), Gollum escapes. In the film Gandalf says, "I searched everywhere for the creature Gollum but...".

reply

Correct again! You are a Tolkien scholar, dijomaja.

reply

Agree, dijomajas facts are correct.
Still, in beginning of THFG Galdalf seems to be aware of AND describe the One Ring when talking to Aragorn:
"...the enemy does not yet know that the ring has been found..."
Theoretically THFG can take place after he sent Frodo to Brie but I'd say its too short of time for all events in THFG because Aragorn has a date with Frodo in Brie...
I say that THFG storyline not fit in 100% in LOTR - this fact is a bit annoying but still its a FANTASTIC fan-art masterpiece. Camera, music, etc adds perfectly to the best triology ever made. I really enjoyed THFG!

reply

I agree. The only thing that didn't make sense was that Gandalf said that Sauron didn't know about the ring. So as I was watching I was thinking he didn't, but it later became clear that this took place after Sauron captured Gollum. Some continuity, but whatever. Still great, and I hope to see more fan-films from Middle Earth.

And that's the DOUBLE truth RUTH!

reply

>>I hope to see more fan-films from Middle Earth.

Check out www.bornofhope.com. I think you'll like what you see. It's due out later this year.

reply

Yeah I heard about Born of Hope about a year ago, but its story unfortunately isn't as intriguing as THFG. However, where THFG messed up was in chronology, because it still wasn't sure if it was before or after Sauron spoke to Gollum, or they just didn't make it clear. I think that since Born of Hope is a less known story and less rigid, it could be the better film.
Don't think I am knocking on THFG, I really liked it.

And that's the DOUBLE truth RUTH!

reply

One more quote that might be relevant for those who think the continuity is off.

"'Know also, my friends, that I learned more yet from Gollum. He was loth to speak and his tale was unclear, but it is beyond all doubt that he went to Mordor, and there all that he knew was forced from him. Thus the Enemy knows now that the One is found, that it was long in the Shire; and since his servants have pursued it almost to our door, he soon will know, already he may know, even as I speak, that we have it here.'" LOTR, Vol. 1., Bk 2, Ch 2.

Appendix B may also help. Here are the relevant bits (and a few irrelevant bits I've chucked in for sheer interest value):

The Third Age
241 Birth of Arwen Undomiel.
2463 The White Council is formed. About this time Deagol the Stoor finds the One Ring, and is murdered by Smeagol.
2470 About this time Smeagol-Gollum hides in the Misty Mountains.
2890 Bilbo born in the Shire.
2931 Aragorn son of Arathorn II born on March 1st.
2939 Saruman discovers that Sauron's servants are searching the Anduin near Gladden Fields, and that Sauron therefore has learned of Isildur's end. He is alarmed, but says nothing to the council.
2941 Thorin Oakenshield and Gandalf visit Bilbo in the Shire. Bilbo meets Smeagol-Gollum and finds the Ring. The White Council meets; Saruman agrees to an attack on Dol Guldur, since he now wishes to prevent Sauron from searching the River. Sauron having made his plans abandons Dol Guldur.
2942 Bilbo returns to the Shire with the Ring. Sauron returns in secret to Mordor.
2944 Gollum leaves the Mountains and begins his search for the 'thief' of the Ring.
2949 Gandalf and Balin visit Bilbo in the Shire.
2951 Sauron declares himself openly and gathers power in Mordor. He begins the rebuilding of Barad-dur. Gollum turns towards Mordor. Sauron sends three of the Nazgul to reoccupy Dol Guldur.
2953 Last Meeting of the White Council. They debate the Rings. Saruman feigns that he has discovered that the One Ring has passed down Anduin to the Sea.
2956 Aragorn meets Gandalf and their friendship begins.
2968 Birth of Frodo.
2980 About this time Gollum reaches the confines of Mordor and becomes aquainted with Shelob.
2983 Birth of Samwise.
3001 Bilbo's farewell feast. Gandalf suspects his ring to be the One Ring. The guard on the Shire is doubled. Gandalf seeks for news of Gollum and calls on the help of Aragorn.
3004 Gandalf visits Frodo in the Shirem and does so at intervals during the next four years.
3008 In the autumn Gandalf pays his last visit to Frodo.
3009 Gandalf and Aragorn renew their hunt for Gollum at intervals during the next eight years, searching in the vales of Anduin, Mirkwood, and Rhovanion to the confines of Mordor. At some time during these years Gollum himself ventured into Mordor, and was captured by Sauron. Elrond sends for Arwen, and she returns to Imladris; the Mountains and all lands eastward are becoming dangerous.
3017 Gollum is released from Mordor. He is taken by Aragorn in the Dead Marshes, and brought to Thranduil in Mirkwood. Gandalf visits Minas Tirith and reads the scroll of Isildur.
3018 April 12 Gandalf reaches Hobbiton.
3018 June 20 Gollum escapes.
3018 July 10 Gandalf imprisoned in Orthanc.
3018 September 18 Gandalf escapes from Orthanc in the early hours. The Black Riders cross the Fords of Isen.
3018 September 23 Four Riders enter the Shire before dawn. The others pursue the Rangers eastward, and then return to watch the Greenway. A Black Rider comes to Hobbiton at nightfall. Frodo leaves Bag End. Gandalf having tamed Shadowfax rides from Rohan.
3018 September 29 Frodo reaches Bree at night.
3018 September 30 Frodo leaves Bree. Gandalf comes to Crickhollow, and reaches Bree at night.
3018 October 3 Gandalf is attacked at night on Weathertop.
3018 October 6 The camp under Weathertop attacked at night. Frodo wounded.

This is mostly for the benefit of the poster who believed that Aragorn had a date with Frodo at "Brie". I have obviously skipped a lot (and I mean a lot) of the information in the timelines in Appendix B, but anyone who's interested can check their copy of LOTR or look for it in the library.

For anyone who has only watched LOTR and not read it, you may not have realised that a lot of time passed between Frodo's coming of age 33rd birthday (and Bilbo's 111th) and his 50th, on September 22 3018 T.A. In fact, quite a lot of time passed between Gandalf visiting him on April 12 3018 and Frodo setting out for Rivendell on September 23rd - five months and a bit. It didn't happen nearly as quickly as PJ's LOTR FOTR made out. Samwise would have been 18 at Bilbo's party, not even yet in his tweens - i.e. his twenties. Pippin would have been only 12.

reply

[deleted]

Did you ever actually read the book? You do know that 17 years passed between Bilbo's 111th birthday and Frodo leaving the Shire, right? You know that Gandalf (and other wizards) are Maia and therefore immortal? They were around when Sauron made his ring. They knew of its existence. Try finding a copy of LOTR and reading Vol 1, Book 2, Chapter 2: The Council of Elrond. Here are some relevant passages.

"'There is indeed a wide waste of time between the River and the Mountain, between the loss and the finding. But the gap in the knowledge of the Wise has been filled at last. Yet too slowly. For the Enemy has been close behind, closer even than I feared. And well is it that not until this year, this very summer, as it seems, did he learn the full truth.'"

"'Then for the last time the Council met; for now we learned that he was seeking ever more eagerly for the One. We feared then that he had some news of it that we knew nothing of. But Saruman said nay, and repeated what he had said to us before: that the One would never again be found in Middle-earth.'"

"'There I was at fault,' he said. 'I was lulled by the words of Saruman the Wise; but I should have sought for the truth sooner, and our peril would now be less.'"

"'From the first my heart misgave me, against all reason that I knew,' said Gandalf, 'and I desired to know how this thing came to Gollum, and how long he had possessed it. So I set a watch for him, guessing that he would ere long come forth from his darkness to seek for his treasure. He came, but he escaped and was not found. And then alas! I let the matter rest, watching and waiting only, as we have too often done.'" Here I want to point out that he was aware of A ring in Bilbo's possession and that it had previously been Gollum's. He just didn't know all its history at this point.

"'Time passed with many cares, until my doubts were awakened again to sudden fear. Whence came the hobbit's ring? What, if my fear were true, should be done with it? Those things I must decide. But I spoke yet of my dread to none, knowing the peril of an untimely whisper, if it went astray. In all the long wars with the Dark Tower treason has ever been our greatest foe.
'That was seventeen years ago. Soon I became aware that spies of many sorts, even beasts and birds, were gathered round the Shire, and my fear grew. I called for the help of the Dunedain, and their watch was doubled; and I opened my heart to Aragorn, the heir of Isildur.'
'And I,' said Aragorn, 'counselled that we should hunt for Gollum, too late though it may seem. And since it seemed fit that Isildur's heir should labour to repair Isildur's fault, I went with Gandalf on the long and hopeless search.'" Seventeen years ago = time of Bilbo's birthday party.

"Then Gandalf told how they had explored the whole length of Wilderland, down even to the Mountains of Shadow and the fences of Mordor. 'There we had rumour of him, and we guess that he dwelt there long in the dark hills; but we never found him, and at last I despaired. And then in my despair I thought again of a test that might make the finding of Gollum unneeded. The ring itself might tell if it were the One. The memory of words at the Council came back to me: words of Saruman, half-heeded at the time. I heard them now clearly in my heart.
'"The Nine, the Seven, and the Three," he said, "had each their proper gem. Not so the One. It was round and unadorned, as it were one of the lesser rings; but its maker set marks upon it that the skilled, maybe, could still see and read."
'What those marks were he had not said. Who now would know? The maker. And Saruman? But great though his lore may be, it must have a source. What hand save Sauron's ever held this thing, ere it was lost? The hand of Isildur alone.
'With that thought, I forsook the chase, and passed swiftly to Gondor. In former days the members of my order had been well received there, but Saruman most of all. Often he had been for long the guest of the Lords of the City. Less welcome did the Lord Denethor show me then than of old, and grudgingly he permitted me to search among his hoarded scrolls and books.'"

This bit you will be familiar with, since it was put into the official movie.

"'When I read these words, my quest was ended. For the traced writing was indeed as Isildur guessed, in the tongue of Mordor and the servants of the Tower. And what was said therin was already known. For in the day the Sauron first put on the One, Celebrimbor, maker of the Three, was aware of him, and from afar he heard him speak these words, and so his evil purposes were revealed.
'At once I took my leave of Denethor, but even as I went northwards, messages came to me out of Lorien that Aragorn had passed that way, and that he had found the creature called Gollum. Therefore I went first to meet him and hear his tale. Into what deadly perils he had gone alone I dared not guess.'
'There is little need to tell of them,' said Aragorn. 'If a man must needs walk in sight of the Black Gate, or tread the deadly flowers of Morgul Vale, then perils he will have. I, too, despaired at last, and I began my homeward journey. And then, by fortune, I came suddenly on what I sought: the marks of soft feet beside a muddy pool. But now the trail was fresh and swift, and it led not to Mordor but away. Along the skirts of the Dead Marshes I followed it, and then I had him. Lurking by a stagnant mere, peering in the water as the dark eve fell, I caught him, Gollum. He was covered with green slime. He will never love me, I fear; for he bit me, and I was not gentle. Nothing more did I ever get from his mouth than the marks of his teeth. I deemed it the worst part of all my journey, the road back, watching him day and night, making him walk before me with a halter on his neck, gagged, until he was tamed by lack of drink and food, driving him ever towards Mirkwood. I brought him there at last and gave him to the Elves, for we had agreed that this should be done; and I was glad to be rid of his company, for he stank. For my part I hope never to look upon him again; but Gandalf came and endured long speech with him.'"

This speech with Gollum, combined with the writing on the ring, proves Gandalf's claim that Frodo's ring is the One Ring. Aragorn then says that Gollum is still in prison and is glad of it, causing Legolas, son of King Thranduil of Mirkwood, to feel rather guilty. The reason Legolas is at the Council in the first place was to confess that they had lost Gollum.

You don't even have to read the Appendices (which are very interesting, by the way) to realise that THFG really is completely canon. I love PJ's LOTR, but Tolkien's book still beats it hands down.

reply