MovieChat Forums > The Soviet Story (2008) Discussion > Some facts

Some facts

posted 14 years ago by Nikitn
23 replies | jump to latest

1. Confirmed death toll due to Stalin's actions: 8 million in the course of 30 years. Estimated: 10 million (80-90% of these died of famines due 2 over taxation, droughts and incompetence as well as the Kulaks completely smashing Soviet agriculture with their "kill all our livestock and burn our fields" policy).

2. During Stalin's rule Soviet Union's national unity rose due 2 fear. By 1939 no longer was the country divided, it was completely under the thumb of Stalin.

3. Stalin's policy of regarding people as a resource was what transformed USSR from peasant land to a nation which was completely industrialized, able to out-produce Germany, even when Germany controlled the industries of continental Europe.

4. Stalin may have been a dictator, but he was no Hitler. Stalin was the average ruthless dictator, but who happened to rule a big country AND was competent in politics.

To finish the history lesson, remember that in 1956 happened this thing called "de-stalinization". This means practically all political prisoners were released (and it would become much harder to get into prison for political offences), GULAG was abolished and Soviet Union became a decently open country for foreigners (ie most cities were open to tourism). Remember this. Soviet Union lasted till 1991, not till 1953.

Now, to the documentary. Let's be honest guys, it's a joke. The director had an agenda (i.e. his funding came from "Latvian fatherland" political party, the usual xenophobes and nazi worshippers). I admit, this film is very good propaganda, and could easily convince people who are not educated.

Most of the claims are complete rubbish btw. Only SOME of the interviews were interesting and legit, the only good thing about this "documentary".

[–] si_omnes 14 years ago

3. Stalin's policy of regarding people as a resource was what transformed USSR from peasant land to a nation which was completely industrialized, able to out-produce Germany, even when Germany controlled the industries of continental Europe.

And I believe in elves and the fairy godmother. I imagine the kind of sociopathic coward behind this user name who thinks that the death of millions of people worth the "industrialization" (which in practice was financed with capitalist money) of the Soviet Union, which ruined the agriculture and left the country sclerotic, so that it has to import food to this day.

4. Stalin may have been a dictator, but he was no Hitler.

Of course not, he was worse than Hitler.

Stalin was the average ruthless dictator, but who happened to rule a big country AND was competent in politics.

Killing millions of people, ruining agriculture and allowing farmers themselves to starve to death is "political competence"? Maybe because your bain tumor hasn't killed you yet, but sclerosed your brain.

To finish the history lesson, remember that in 1956 happened this thing called "de-stalinization". This means practically all political prisoners were released (and it would become much harder to get into prison for political offences), GULAG was abolished and Soviet Union became a decently open country for foreigners (ie most cities were open to tourism).

You believe in Santa Claus too. This so-called "de-stalinization" didn't change the policing and totalitarian nature of the regime. It only made the system more stable for the nomenklatura, which could not stand the purges of Stalin. It doesn't mean that Khrushchev stopped putting political dissidents in mental hospitals in the Soviet Union. And millions of people were arrested and interned until then.

Remember this. Soviet Union lasted till 1991, not till 1953.

Meanwhile, millions of people were killed and entire countries were ruined. These retards, liars, cowards sociopathic *beep*

Now, to the documentary. Let's be honest guys, it's a joke. The director had an agenda (i.e. his funding came from "Latvian fatherland" political party, the usual xenophobes and nazi worshippers). I admit, this film is very good propaganda, and could easily convince people who are not educated.

The European Union, the chroniclers of The Black Book of Communism as Nicolas Werth (left-wing activist), Viktor Suvorov, former agent of the GRU, Norman Davies, the British historian, and others are xenophobes? One of two things: either you have not seen the film or your level of mental retardation must be grotesque, because the film denounces, including, the xenophobia and the connection of Nazism and Communism. Ah yes, denouncing the connection of Nazi atrocities with the Soviets is proof that the author is a Nazi? No, it proves that you are just one of those morons that Hitler didn't hesitate throwing poison gas.

[–] Nikitn 14 years ago

1. I am sorry, but I am not a jobless idiot, so I don't use such crap arguments as "you are sociopath". Look at historical facts. Most (serious) historians acknowledge that without Stalin's industrialization, USSR would not defeat Nazi Germany.

And do you understand where this "capitalist" money came from..? It came from Soviet products, like grain.

2. USSR under Khruschev was not particularly opressive, especially compared to nations like Portugal and Spain. Putting political enemies into arrest and political infighting is nothing compared to Stalin's terror.

Also: Soviet Union had far higher income equality than most Western nations. It had the equvailent of some Democratic-Socialist nations today (Denmark, Norway etc). Measuring was done by UN.

3. Man, stop insulting. This film WAS funded by xenophobes and nationalists. It HAD an agenda. It DID use pure lies and did not tell information when it didn't fit their point.

4. People like "Suvorov" are widely known as populists who earn money writing crap to fools.

[–] si_omnes 14 years ago

1. I am sorry, but I am not a jobless idiot, so I don't use such crap arguments as "you are sociopath".

No. You'd have to become intelligent first, to be a sociopath.

Look at historical facts.

I do. It doesn't appear to be your case.

Most (serious) historians acknowledge that without Stalin's industrialization, USSR would not defeat Nazi Germany.

Point me one. Russian industrialization begins in the second half of the 19th century, from the capital of the French, English, German and the Russian state. Even though Russia was a predominantly rural country, the industrialization tendency was a process that took place rapidly. Who destroyed the Russian industry was the Leninist and then Stalinist policy, which still needed American capital to survive, in the 30s. Just to add: the Soviet industry, except for the arms industry, was always obsolete and undeveloped. Not to mention that a good portion of the Soviet military technology was the product of GRU's espionage.

And do you understand where this "capitalist" money came from..? It came from Soviet products, like grain.

You forgot to mention that these grains, confiscated from millions of Ukrainians who starved to death and sold to the west, annihilated Russian agriculture and didn't take the industry way from misery. This "story" that Stalin industrialized Russia is pure hogwash. In fact, the Bolsheviks tried to rebuild what had been destroyed after the coup of 1917 and never managed to achieve growth the levels of Russia by the end of the 19th century.

USSR under Khruschev was not particularly opressive,

Confining people in the hospice because they disagreed with the government isn't oppressive?

especially compared to nations like Portugal and Spain.

Especially compared to nations like Portugal and Spain, the Soviet Union was much more oppressive. Civil society was pulverized by a state and small nomenclature continued to rule the country until 1989. Franco's Spain and Salazar's Portugal remained civil society intact and untouched. It's no coincidence that the democratization was easier.

Putting political enemies into arrest and political infighting is nothing compared to Stalin's terror.

Same to the post-Stalin Soviet terror. Khrushchev confined political dissidents in mental hospital. That's what you call a "libertarian" society?

Also: Soviet Union had far higher income equality than most Western nations.

Sure, over half the population was "equally" poor. Well, we could assume within this moronic logic that Haiti also has income equality, because society is overwhelmingly poor and has the same pattern of income. Seriously, dude, are you mentally retarded or have a brain tumor? Why don't people like you die faster?

It had the equvailent of some Democratic-Socialist nations today (Denmark, Norway etc). Measuring was done by UN.

Half of the Soviet population lived with ten dollars a month. That's what you call a pattern of "democratic socialism"? And by the way, although Denmark, Norway, etc. have a very strong state intervention, these nations have market economies.

3. Man, stop insulting. This film WAS funded by xenophobes and nationalists.

The film denounces the "nationalist" Russians (communists), the atrocities of Nazi-fascism, and the moron says such a thing? Have you seen the film?

It HAD an agenda.

Oh sure, denouncing Russian xenophobia as criminal makes the film pro-xenophobic.

It DID use pure lies and did not tell information when it didn't fit their point.

Point me the lies, since you haven't seen the film?

4. People like "Suvorov" are widely known as populists who earn money writing crap to fools.

Let's see: Viktor Suvorov was a Red Army military and Soviet GRU agent. Will you google him too?

1. I am sorry, but I am not a jobless idiot, so I don't use such crap arguments as "you are sociopath".

I'm not a jobless idiot either. Maybe sociopath. I love beating and spanking you without a shadow of remorse.

[–] Leapchild 13 years ago

"Look at historical facts. Most (serious) historians acknowledge that without Stalin's industrialization, USSR would not defeat Nazi Germany."

What historians would that be?
The Red Army in 1936 was vastly superior to the German Army, but then Stalin decided to kill of 50% of all the officers, leaving only incompetent trash. After that the "great" soviet union couldn't even defeat small Finland.

[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Gottagrin 10 years ago

Very funny, I do agree the regime under Khruschev is less oppressive, but, you know what? He was overthrown by coup initiated by hardline secret police official and he is condemned by many Russian's even today.

Coincidence? No. Stalin had made literally everybody FEAR persecution, and LOVE come from that fear.
_________________________
Superbus Via Inscientiae.

[–] si_omnes 14 years ago

1. Confirmed death toll due to Stalin's actions: 8 million in the course of 30 years.

Stalin kills more than the Nazi holocaust and you think it's nothing?

Estimated: 10 million (80-90% of these died of famines due 2 over taxation, droughts and incompetence as well as the Kulaks completely smashing Soviet agriculture with their "kill all our livestock and burn our fields" policy).

So you believe Stalin didn't cause the famine when confiscated a large portion of the food: the fault lies on the producers, who no longer produce, fearful of being robbed. The most appalling is that within this logic, people should be "compelled" to produce. You must believe in slavery as something "natural". . .

[–] Nikitn 14 years ago

You are pretty laughably stupid. Did you know that?

Stalin directly murdered 1-2 million people in 30 years. Hitler: 10 million in Holocaust (4 years) alone.

Stalin was just a dictator who was efficient and happened to rule a major country.

PS. Stalin overtaxed peasants. When a bad harvest came, famine broke out (just like a few hundred years ago). Do you understand this? Stalin didn't care if they died or lived, he just needed capital. But thing is, population of USSR grew steadily under Stalin's rule (excluding the period duringWW2).

[–] si_omnes 14 years ago

You are pretty laughably stupid. Did you know that?

Stalin directly murdered 1-2 million people in 30 years. Hitler: 10 million in Holocaust (4 years) alone.

Your forgot, moron, about the great Ukrainian famine, which was provoked, costing the lives of 6 million people in 2 years. Also, you forgot about the Great Terror which killed around one million people in almost 2 years. Obviously you also ignore the mass deportations of 1941 and 1942, which may have costed the lives of another millions of people. Not to tell, of course, that Stalin deported thousands of German Jews to Gestapo.

Stalin was just a dictator who was efficient and happened to rule a major country.

Your setence is filled with meaningless adjectivations. "Efficient" in what sense? For killing millions of lives?

PS. Stalin overtaxed peasants.

Stalin confiscated the grains from the peasants and they starved to death. Why do you insist in this pathetic lie, retard?

PS. Stalin overtaxed peasants. When a bad harvest came, famine broke out (just like a few hundred years ago).

The communists subterfuge is that the bad harvests caused the starvation. Well, it's never been seen in capitalist countries. Discussing with brainded clowns like yourself is a loss of time. Franco and Pinochet would happily solve this problem.

Do you understand this?

No, I don't, because you're lying. Why opinate on a subject you never researched?

Stalin didn't care if they died or lived, he just needed capital.

Moron, explain to me why Stalin can't be responsible for the death by starvation of millions peasants, if he confiscated and exported their grains?

But thing is, population of USSR grew steadily under Stalin's rule (excluding the period duringWW2)

Explain to me how, since there was population decline and the ruin of soviet agriculture?

[–] Nikitn 13 years ago

Man, I really don't have the time 2 discuss with losers like you, but;

1. You call me stupid and want me 2 die? lol mate. Unlike you, I am in an education (Master of Science degree is my ultimate aim). You are the only sad loser here, resorting to lies, stupidity and insults. And don't come with any story that you aren't a loser. Please, you won't fool anybody.

2. USSR was industrialized by Stalin. This is a well accepted fact. During the early 20th century Russia was completely devastated by a civil war. Even before this civil war, RE had no serious industrial capacity. However - during Stalin's reign GDP growth was huge. Heavy industry was expanded at an unprecedented rate and the USSR was modernizing - through blood and sweat. This is a well known and accepted fact by vast majority of modern historians. Please don't post your opinion unless it has at least some logic in it. If you want a list of historians: wow.. I don't know, how about checking wikipedia?

3. In the USSR there was oppression. However, USSR was still significantly better place to live in than the rightist dictatorships in the Iberian Peninsula. HDI rate of USSR was estimated as above Portugal and S. Korea during the late 80's. Source: Theories of economic development (written by people with actual Ph.d's).

4. Don't post garbage. The famines were not "orchestrated" by Stalin. If Stalin wanted 2 kill his own people for no reason then he could. But population was increasing during his rule. As I said, 2 million people directly executed in 30 years for a nation with almost 200 million people. Learn some facts, please.

5. 1,5-2,25 million peopled died in Ukraine due to the early 1930's famine. Don't try to invent numbers, please.

6. Agriculture during Stalin's time was not in ruin, you stupid little bydlo. Agriculture in Russia was significantly weakened since the Kulaks pulled the "burn everything I have as a protest" card, however it recovered. http://www.usm.maine.edu/eco/joe/works/Soviet.html Agriculture in post-Soviet USSR was completely fine and acceptable, for a nation with an economy as the USSR.

7. Now, as for economy: USSR had half the GDP (PPP) per capita of U.S.A. in 1989. Source is CIA factbook. IF we take into account the more equal society in the USSR, we can clearly suggest that life wasn't bad at all.

Now, if you will excuse me I must go to my boxing-practice. Have a nice life (though I doubt it, considering how sad and pathetic you are. A 40 year old insulting other people and wanting them 2 die... rofl, you are a joke).

[–] si_omnes 13 years ago

2. USSR was industrialized by Stalin. This is a well accepted fact.

Accepted by whom, intellectual pygmy? Russian industrialization already existed in 19th century and bolsheviks ruined it, in the first years of the revolution. That because, we should remember, who financed Soviet industry was Henry Ford and other protected capitalists.

During the early 20th century Russia was completely devastated by a civil war.

Of course, bolsheviks ruined the industry, the economy and agriculture, imbecile!

Even before this civil war, RE had no serious industrial capacity.

Russian industrialization not only had government capital, as english, french and german capital. As a matter of fact, who constructed Russian railways, retarded pygmy? Stalin, who tried to build a railway and threw the wagons in the Ural woods?

However - during Stalin's reign GDP growth was huge.

Where? When? How? In the times of the great Ukrainian famine? In the Stakanovista era, where the mass purges excluded Russia from its better technicians? Where, intellectual pygmy?

Heavy industry was expanded at an unprecedented rate and the USSR was modernizing - through blood and sweat.

For a moron like yourself, killing 10 millions of people to industrialize Russia is "development"?

This is a well known and accepted fact by vast majority of modern historians.

Name me one so I can laugh at your face?

If you want a list of historians: wow.. I don't know, how about checking wikipedia?

That's with you, who talk about generic historians fabricated in your mind, when serious studies point to precisely the opposite.

[–] si_omnes 13 years ago

3. In the USSR there was oppression. However, USSR was still significantly better place to live in than the rightist dictatorships in the Iberian Peninsula.

It's not what my friend, professor of Violin and Russian, says. He much prefers Germany. In Russia, he earned 60 dollas a month. But to an imbecile like yourself, killing millions of people by starvation is something "much better".

HDI rate of USSR was estimated as above Portugal and S. Korea during the late 80's. Source: Theories of economic development (written by people with actual Ph.d's).

And you believe in soviet statistics? Subsequently, they proved to be wrong. What's the HDI of a regime which kills 10 million of people by starvation, twat? Seriously, dude, you're sick.

4. Don't post garbage. The famines were not "orchestrated" by Stalin.

They were, moron. Stalin confiscated the victuals of the peasants, to subjugate them. Now, if you deny reality, largely documented by serious historians (something you're not familiar with), that's only your problem.

If Stalin wanted 2 kill his own people for no reason then he could.

And in fact, he did. Killed around 10 million people by starvation, as he gave carte blanche to NKVD kill people by quotas, in every region, without any judgment and culpability. Not to tell, of course, the mass deportations and concentration camps.

But population was increasing during his rule.

Teaching a moron: the Soviet population, from Russian Revolution to Stalin's era, experienced a decrease of 12 million people. You're not a very good liar. As a comparison, while Brazil grew almost twenty times in population, the Soviet people, at most, grew in the poorest regions, twice. That because the population of the Russian empire was 150 million people, early in the century and, at most, only doubled. That because we're not counting birth rate decrease, something visible in the Russian population, which simply stopped growing since the '60s. Kid, do not argue with me. If I were debating this with you in real life, I'd make you an intellectual corpse, because you are sooo stupid.

As I said, 2 million people directly executed in 30 years for a nation with almost 200 million people. Learn some facts, please.

Around 20 million people were killed. And even if it were 2 million, it'd also be an astonishing crime, in the same way. Dude, you defend a Nazi statistic and still make an apology of that regime? You have a malign brain tumor and serious problems of sociopathy. Sociopath, only a bullet in the head can solve the problem. I don't argue with lunatics. Lunatics have to be killed with refinement of cruelty.

5. 1,5-2,25 million peopled died in Ukraine due to the early 1930's famine. Don't try to invent numbers, please.

Famine provoked by Soviet NKVD. Don't try to lie, I know you're pathologically dumb.

[–] si_omnes 13 years ago

The mere fact of a regime killing 2 millions people already makes it genocidal and criminal. But to this retarded and sociopath, 2 million of people are subject to being killed. Why not the 6 million of Hitler? A person like that has serious social problems.

6. Agriculture during Stalin's time was not in ruin, you stupid little bydlo. Agriculture in Russia was significantly weakened since the Kulaks pulled the "burn everything I have as a protest" card

And why? Because food stocks of the kulaks were confiscated by the state. And why should peasants produce to be stolen, moron? But the logic is that producers must produce food to be confiscated. Ah yes, "protest."

however it recovered.

The Soviet agriculture has "recovered" so well, that they ceased to be food exporters to become food importers.

Agriculture in post-Soviet USSR was completely fine and acceptable, for a nation with an economy as the USSR.

"So acceptable," so to speak, that Russia needed to import food, because they didn't have enough food to feed the people. So "excellent" that the people lived in under rationing. And why there is rationing, idiot? Because there isn't enough food.

The Soviet Union had so many food crisis, that it was needed that even their enemies, the U.S. send grain to Russia. . .

IF we take into account the more equal society in the USSR, we can clearly suggest that life wasn't bad at all.

99% of people miserable and reduced to nothing and a nomenclature which represented only 1% of the population, with power over all the country's wealth is to a moron like yourself a concept of perfect Equality! Seriously, dude, you're even dumber than I first gave you credit for!

He surely advocates equality: he wants almost everyone equally miserable!

[–] si_omnes 13 years ago

Nikitn gives lessons of historical stupidity: he said the video is pro-Nazi, even if The Soviet Story denounces the crimes of Nazism and its ties with communism. Sure, the video bad-mouths xenophobic Russians, ex-Communists, and the feeble-minded fool claims it's apologetic of Nazism? Either this moron has not seen the movie, or he can't understand anything, not even movie images.

[–] Nikitn 11 years ago

si omnes, I am currently getting a MSc degree in Chemical Engineering (what are you studying? How to flip burgers at McDonald's?) at one of the top engineering universities of Europe. So I can assure you, I'm not feeble-minded.

Regardless, with "pro-nazi" I meant that the crappy movie apologizes/ignores massive crimes, especially the dozens of pogroms, which Baltic populations carried out under German supervision. Stuff like that.

Now eat *beep* and get a life, filthy mongrel.

[–] cthulhulurks 11 years ago

The gigantic infrastructure projects undertaken by the communist party to which you refer as industrialisation were accomplished by millions of gulag prisoners. The communist rule was that of murder, torture, terror and fear.

my vote history:
http://www.imdb.com/user/ur13767631/ratings

[–] Liquid_Nuke 13 years ago

Nikitn, you're frighteningly ignorant. A literal, stomach churning ignorance that accomplishes the none too easy goal of depressing me, that I have to live with people that contribute, intellectually, so little the the world I have to share with them.

I don't understand how wind up soldiers like you exist.

[–] Nikitn 11 years ago

Heya liquid-brain. Let me answer your question:

"Soldiers" like me exist because somebody has to fight the kind of (anti-Russian/Soviet) rampant xenophobic filth rats like you try to spread.

Does that satisfy your question, or do you need a further explanation?

[–] Hyperrion 13 years ago

Nikitn, learn some facts, face the reality and accept that this atrocity real happened. Maybe you are dreaming yourself as dictator or a leading LT, but let me tell you something, if you were in that system you would have been waked by your "commarade fellows" just like that. In the communist system everything was perfect only on paper. You would have not resisted in that system base only on greed of power. You would have been the most meaningless scumbag that the communists would get rid off. You are a retarded kid. Read some books, I mean fact based books not some brain washing communists books written by some greedy sociopaths! I wish you and to such morons as you to live in a communist system for one week to face the real face of that crap system. Go live your stupid dreams in North Korea, China or Cuba to see was communism is real like!

[–] Nikitn 11 years ago

Hyperrion, can you stop whining like some 12 year old girl? I'm obviously not denying the crimes of Stalin you brainless whelp, I'm merely (correctly) pointing out that this Latvian or whatever movie is complete propaganda which can only trick the most feeble-minded types of persons.

[–] Leapchild 11 years ago

How exactly is it propaganda?

The so called facts that you have laid out are not historical. All of them have been denounced by historians, even in modern Russia. The only exception is pre-1991 soviet historians because they were political tools. They couldn't just write what had actually taken place, they were forced to glorify history or they would face censorship and legal action.

Just like hypothetically if Nazi Germany had survived. Historians in Germany would say the holocaust never happened or that only 10 people died. How do we know that these statistics aren't accurate facts? Because the historian had a clear political bias.

[–] KeanuMeansLove 11 years ago

Very interesting, thx
Mao and Stalin were cruel and unsympathetic leaders.

viva La Revolucion!!

[–] 11 years ago

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