OK, seriously...


Having just finished this movie, I'm shocked, absolutely shocked how anyone can think this movie is worthwhile in any way outside of the historical footage it presents. OK, fine, I'm Russian/Ukrainian so I do have something at stake here, I'm not going to be entirely unbiased. But how can anyone avoid the fact that this movie is trying to create an unrealistic version of history. As many others have said, I'm not denying the Ukrainian Famine, the Katyn Massacre, even the NKVD cooperation with the SS. The Soviet regime, before, during, and after Stalin has killed millions of people. I'm not here to deny any of it or make excuses. I even agree that these guys are war criminals and should be tried as such.

1) However, I don't understand what the point of dragging Marx and Engels into this is. The quotes he uses are really odd. You can probably find a 100 quotes where Marx says that nationalism is bourgeois tool to exploit the proletariat, which specifically contradicts the idea that he wanted to kill an entire population of people. The quotes themselves are shaky translations at best. In the quote about the holocaust Marx refers not to an actual mass slaughter but to the fact that the CULTURES must parish in the progress of history. Regarding "racial trash", I still haven’t found the actual text this supposedly comes from, but is anyone really surprised that Marx, a man writing in the 1840s, held racist thoughts somewhere in his head? Though I doubt the quote's accuracy, I don't doubt at all that Marx was a racist on some level (he was probably more racist than the average American is today). Still, what's the point? If you're going to cherry pick 2 quotes out of millions of pages of text and use the worst translation possible, you're really overstepping a line of what's a reasonable line of conclusion. If this was really such a tenant of Marxism, he would have written a lot more about it and especially in two most important works ("The Communist Manifesto" and "Capital").

2) The second thing is, why is the fact that the Soviets cooperated with Germans such an important theme to him. Stalin is evil/with or without Hitler as his buddy. OK, if you have evidence to link the two, you should certainly come public with it. But nothing points to this as being anything except an alliance of convenience for both the Nazis and the Soviets. The Nazis saw Slavs as an inferior race and Communists as an inferior group of philosophs. The Soviets simply wanted the Nazis off their backs because they wanted to invade Germany AFTER it exhausted its resources and at a point when there was military parity (or superiority). The footage of the Russian officer supposedly hailing Hitler is over the top (looks like just a wave goodbye), and completely irrelevant. All of it is completely irrelevant, because the documents and actions don’t dictate an ideological agreement; they were just trying to avoid war.

3) Number 3: Why is Russians celebrating the victory in the “Great Patriotic War” (or WWII in the US) a bad thing? Does he really think that the Russian people are celebrating the atrocities the Soviets committed in WWII?!?
Did the Soviets commit atrocities (as I listed above) before, during, and after the war? Yes! Does it really take away from the fact that the Russian people (and sure, Stalin too) give life and limb for country to defeat Nazi Germany? I don’t think so. My grandmother was a victim of the forced relocations to/from Poland in WWII, it was a tremendously hard on her. It doesn’t make what my grandfather did, fighting 4 straight years, “liberating” (in quotes for the cynics) 5 cities any less heroic. That level of military commitment has never and could never be paralleled in the West. Any other country but Russia would have crumbled. But the Russian people had already suffered so much that they didn’t know what else to do except to keep fighting. It’s a shame so many of the deaths were unnecessary and the Stalinist treachery that Russian (and other Soviet troops) endured should be addressed. Still, what they did should be celebrated and honored for as long as Russians, Ukrainians, Kazakhs, Uzbekis, etc exist as nations on this earth. Can’t believe I even had to write something a justification.

4) Lastly, the last part of the movie is just baffling. Modern Russia is undoubtedly messed up. I can say this from having seen some of it firsthand. Putin I certainly don’t like either. However, what’s the point in dragging Russia’s name through the mud? Russia’s really not alone in the war-crimes. Every single power committed them and of course none of the Axis were brought to trial for it. The Francoists in Spain were given amnesty too… If the EU’s affairs aren’t enough, let add the fact that the EU is home to numerous leaders with blood on their hands that they won’t extradite for trial in their home country. Why single out Russia for this?

Ok, fine, it’s a documentary about Russia/USSR, I’ll concede that. But you can’t demand justice from Russia with a straight face when there are literally thousands of cases like this that have fallen on deaf ears in every corner of Europe (except maybe Iceland or something).

Back to the point, Russia does have a problem with neo-Nazism, as ironic as it is to me, but Russia is not alone in this. It’s happening all over Europe within the less educated/xenophobic sectors of society and not only Russia has xenophobic tendencies professed by its leaders. It’s RIDICULOUS to suggest that the Russian government could somehow affect this by admitting to war crimes. It would have 0-effect.

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All of these “enhancements” to the history of WWII show that the author is trying to narrate history as he sees fit. It’s insulting to me as the viewer and ultimately insulting to all the victims of both Nazi and Soviet brutalities. What greater insult that to have your life get turned into a propaganda piece.

I felt like the seriousness of the movie was betrayed with the fear manufacturing/monster truck commercial-like voice Strickland used and used almost mockingly in some parts of the movie. The music score to fatal gunshots and body dropping was also very much in bad taste and made death into a sort of trivial form of emotional manipulation.

All in all, I can’t believe this is passable as a documentary. It’s crazy to think this could possibly be shown to every (very impressionable) school child in Latvia. If they don’t hate Russians enough yet, wait until those children age 10 years.

More and more hate and fear, it seems like that’s really what this documentary is about.

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It was labored in the way of an usual Holocaust documentary which use similar 'emotional manipulation', but I agree some points like the Nazi salute were a bit over the top.

Play it again Frank, I don't give a damn.

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If you really ask for an opinion and you don't want to simply state your conviction, then I'll address your questions. However, I understand it will be difficult for you to be that open if you are already biased in a way which minimizes the power of arguments. This is why I think what I have to say will most likely strengthen your anger - that of feeling personally hurt by those praising this film. Here is why:

1. The film is all about signaling one obvious fact (recognized by EU officials also): the Soviet rule was not condemned in the way the Nazi one was. On the contrary, many people think of Russians as saviors and of Nazis as criminals, when both regimes were similarly brutal and inhuman. Basically, in the eyes of the world, the Soviet Union was an atrocious experiment, indeed, Ukrainian Famine, the Katyn Massacre, NKVD-SS love affair, indeed, they all happened (as you also started your argument), BUT... the Nazis were the actual criminals. This is the distorted opinion of the world who sees Russians as liberators, when they were just as bad as (and perhaps even worse than) German Nazis. Need more proof? See how Germany reacted afterward and how it behaves now: Nazi symbols are illegal, for decades now they publicly exposed the genocide, they invested millions in research and documentaries, they most of all took responsibility for this unforgettable part of history they are now ashamed of; Germany virtually did its penance in stockcloth and ashes in front of the world and it teaches its children of this ginormous error in history in a way that would prevent its repetition. Germany condemns social nationalism in every form it can and this is how you repent history. Now you tell me: what did modern Russia do to repel its error? How much of the genocide has been researched, revealed, publicly condemned? How do you feel about Russia now? Why are people still dying there because of the hatred of young Russian neo-nazis and national terrorists? (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/12/world/europe/12moscow.html?_r=1) How can you explain Checenya and how do you feel about putting in the same sentence modern Russia and democracy? What are young Russians learning from history? That they are a great, heroic nation who saved the world from mass-murders?
Either you like it or not, this is the truth! And here's more of the truth: why is Europe avoiding the subject, why doesn't the whole world loudly speak about the Soviet communism with the same force Nazism was dissected? It's simply a question of power: who holds important resources in this world? who has the veto power in the UN? Who is, after all the major exporter of oil, natural gas, metals and weapons? One of the largest and most influential countries in the world? There you see, my friend, why history is not treated the same for everyone. Sure, you can be outraged by what I say, but nonetheless you cannot fight the facts. And please don't misunderstand me: I am not offending you or your people, I don't even discuss about Russian values. I myself am very fond of its literature, art, science; I truly like your language. I am trying to separate ideas from people and I think this is the first step in the anti-racist fight. But what I'm saying at this first point is that the premise of this film is solid enough and to say "it's not worth watching" except for "the historical footage it presents" it's completely unjustified. Even only for the historical footage which is quite rare, it is undoubtedly a must-see!

2. The film does not discuss Marxism. Nor pure ideology. It discusses facts. That's why it doesn't make justice to Marx. But essentially, what the documentary is telling us is that social nationalism and (international) communism have many things in common. It does not discuss the differences, but the intersections and focuses on the terror of fear, ethnic eradication, total control, nationalism (one unity, one nation!) and failure! It sheds a new light on what the soviet-nazi collaboration, reminding us the truth: they were not enemies from the beginning, on the contrary! And for this only it deserves even more attention. People tend to overlook this nowadays. That's why we need a reminder.

3. Of course no one thinks Russian people celebrated the atrocities in WWII. That's the point: they were the ones who suffered, along with other nations. There are two Russias here: the one who rules and the rest (the victims, the people, those who are still in pain). The film condemns the former (along with all those willing to collaborate with the secret police and who joyfully killed their brothers, asking for more quotas) and empathizes with the latter. I can't believe how you don't see this. It appears that you can only get the message that somehow cultivates hate against Russians and would single this country out. Again, the documentary does not intend to send this message. At least this is what I got from it. On short I understand this: that the Soviet genocide (before, during and after the war) is often neglected and avoided; that one can forcefully compare it with the Nazi rule on the premises outlined above; that we need to remember this so that truth is known. For sure, the whole world is part of this history! Especially the rest of the Europe. And of, course, the USA! And the film emphasizes this common responsibility too (when discussing the Great Britain case, for instance). But for the USA and the rest of Europe one needs hundreds of other documentaries. For Americans only one should reserve a life to understand and explain why democracy cannot be imposed by using the terror of weapons and how power and ethics never go together.

4. How did it pass as a documentary? But can you tell me what a documentary should look like? What are its boundaries? Are Michael Moore's "documentaries" comparable? Or Occupation 101 (by the way, you should watch this if you haven't done it yet; it expresses the Palestinian version of the Israel-Palestinian war and it is a great piece of reality!). I think a documentary should portray a fragment of reality as it is, but could also assume a point of view. A film gives you a clue toward something more than what it presents. This one did just that: it makes you reflect at a different level. It reminds you of a piece of history which decided our current lives. You think it cultivates hatred because you feel angry and because it shows soviets only as bad guys. But you ultimately fail to understand that the film does not condemn Russians, but the absurdities who are still propagated throughout world (based on Marx's errors) because they are not treated as such. Because they are not sanctioned as they should be.
You affirm it's ridiculous to say that Russia cannot eradicate xenophobia and it's perfectly true. No one can. But surely it could do better. Condemning it officially, showing its interest to repair the past, researching it, not censoring the media... There are so many things that in time could restore Russians and ex-soviet countries' dignity.
And finally, concerning the deep voice and the emotional propaganda that would impress a Latvian boy... You're wrong again. It would impress anyone. Even without the voice and the music and all the add-ons. Because it is by definition impressionable. Watching dead bodies and written evidence justifying so many deaths is not something you would remain indifferent to. Emotional manipulation? Every holocaust film (with or without voice) is intended to emotionally manipulate. You simply have to empathize. I don't see anything wrong in it, as long as we can still judge the facts at the end and the content is not a mixture of lies and plausible things as other really ridiculous films are. Have you seen Zeitgeist? That's the *beep* What you describe here ("manufacturing/monster truck commercial-like voice Strickland used and used almost mockingly in some parts of the movie") fits Zeitgeist perfectly. That's true propaganda. Here - you just have effects which exaggerate something which is bad enough already.
I agree with you when it comes to some trivial forms of manipulation and I don't entirely defend the way this film was edited. But I endorse its idea and I think everyone who is rational enough should see it. And watch others too, that discuss the American story, and the Japanese story, and the Italian, and the Spanish, and the Romanian story. These are all stories worth hearing! In fact, they are all stories that MUST be told!
peace!





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I don't want to just discount what you said, there's definitely intelligence in your post and I'd love to discuss it over a beer with you, but I feel that you ultimately see things quite onesidedly and as it goes with arguments, I'm going to focus one what I see as the shortcomings of your argument.

1) I agree modern day Russia is, well, a quasi-fascist state that has numerous faults and fosters delusions of greatness, has a negative effect on world politics and so forth. I'll give in to temptation and point out the U.S. has these qualities and promotes them as well, though I'll state 100% upfront this is irrelevant to the argument.

Still, what does this have to do with the holocaust? That's really my question. The documentary links neonazism with WWII, but the neonazis are a whole different breed, who don't prescribe to the the whole Great Patriotic War version of history anyway. I know many people in the Baltic republics are bitter, and they have a right to be, but let's draw a line here at some point. If you keep connecting the dots, you eventually go way off topic. An analogy I'd use here as a thesaurus, initially words have similar definitions, but as go further and further, you can actually come to an antonym.

1A) I noted the case of the Francoists not being address by Spain or the EU, and to that point I'd like to add how easily Japan got out of the genocide it committed in WWII. Really, it's just a political reality. It's politically convenient, no matter how much you'd like to think otherwise. And yes, someone should present these facts and this movie would have been great... but only if it stuck to the facts! There was no need to bring Marx or modern Russia into this.

2)This film does talk about Marxism, though it doesn't focus on it. The whole tenet of this movie is based on this fact. It's part of the 'thesis'. Maybe you just missed that part, but watch it again. They try to make the link and say that national socialism and socialism + Marxism have common roots. This is a travesty!

3)Sounds obvious that it's not celebrating the atrocities of WWII. But the movie wants them to stop celebrating it, Why? Can we honor the people who fought for freedom or not?

4)Easy answer, the line is... don't make up facts and don't make connections whimsically. I don't like Moore too much because of his emotional style either, but at least his movies have a slightly better line of logic than this movie did. As far as the dead bodies, I agree, I just don't see the need for the music and so forth. To underscore death, seems like a desensitizing effect more than anything. It's probably why we're silent at funerals mostly and don't have any death is among us music in the background.

Oh and yes, Russia can do a great number of things to improve its democracy, but I reiterate that it would have 0-effect on these neonazis. It would absolutely help the mentality on the population as a whole and open the country in general... make the country a better place to visit, but, in this regard, again THERE'S NO CONNECTION. Which is really, the ultimate problem with this film.

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I want to know why Russia doesn't have to pay reparations to the countries they annexed?: Armenian SSR, Azerbaijan SSR, Byelorussian SSR, Estonian SSR, Georgian SSR, Kazakh SSR, Kirghiz SSR, Latvian SSR, Lithuanian SSR, Moldavian SSR, Russian SFSR, Tajik SSR, Turkmen SSR, Ukrainian SSR and Uzbek SSR.

The Nazis had to pay for their war reparations to the allies and the Jews, why not Russia?

It seems like Europe is simply too afraid to even acknowledge any of this. The big Russian bear does as it wants. I certainly won't condemn the general Russian population, they've struggled for hundreds of years from being serfs to being puppets of the communists and now under the auspices of a pseudo-dictatorship. I can also sympathize with the average Russian who sees no progress from his or her tax dollars. The angry faces and depression in Russia has been well documented in peer-reviewed journals and in books.

There's no denying that Stalin's bloody thirst was unquenchable, arguably worse than Hitler. He was a mass murderer, anti-Semite, and threatened the world under the swaying pendulum of the Cold War where others filled his shoes (though not nearly to his extent). It seems like you have to dig very hard to find any information on the Soviet atrocities in Northern and Eastern Europe. I'm taking a Baltic history course right now at university and the atrocities are just sickening. Europe and the rest of world is just sweeping this genocide under the rug.

Yes, the information is out there and accessible, but it seems like such a great tragedy.

And again, I feel sorry for you current Russians who live in a country, widely divided the ultra rich oligarchs and politicians and the lower income earners. Poor Russian soldiers are treated horribly and have always been by their leaders. Fodder for the cannons.

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"The footage of the Russian officer supposedly hailing Hitler is over the top (looks like just a wave goodbye), and completely irrelevant."

a wave goodbye?!? hahahahaha. yeah people usually wave at each other from 2 feet away, right after shaking hands...

The point is Russia got a free pass on MURDERING MILLIONS OF PEOPLE. They helped with the invasion of Poland, teamed up with the Nazi's for their selfish gain and committed genocide. Shameful.

just like their Olympic performance this year lol.

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Why would it not be passable as a documentary? It portrays historical events like they happened. Saying that it was graphically disturbing doesn't change the fact that these things happened and in real life were probably a lot more horrifying than some black and white pictures. Should it be portrayed with pink unicorns instead? Would that make it a more serious matter?

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Ok, I realize I am somewhat late with my reply to this post, but since this criticism of the documentary is actually raising some points I like to comment, I still do it, because what the heck, right?

(1) I agree to some extent that making a direct connection to Marx and Engels seems a little constructed at first. What I totally subscribe to is that this is actually one of the weakly made points within this movie. However, I also believe that there is a connection between the atrocities committed by the Soviets and Marx' and Engels' ideology, albeit it is not as direct as the documentary makes us believe. And it is actually in my reply to your second question that I want to address this.

(2) I think you got the intention of the movie wrong here. You are definitely right in pointing out the 'alliance of convenience', as you have called it. However, the film tries to carve out the similarities between fascism and socialism and tries to substantiate this by showing how apparent enemies (Nazis and Soviets) were so close in their methodology that it actually allowed them to cooperate.
I would add to that that Russia and Germany had a history of mutual (predominantly military) assistance and exchange beginning as soon as after WW I (following the treaties of Rapallo and Berlin). Also, Soviet Russia rightly perceived Nazi Germany as a potential candidate to sooner than later wage war in Europe and had a vested interest in not being the first nation to be attacked by the Nazis (in which case they could not have counted on the support through the Allies).
However, the point here is (and, in fact, this is a central point that the movie only grazes and in my opinion should absolutely stress a lot more) that both systems, fascism and socialism, at their very core are totalitarian systems. Both socialism and fascism mistakenly try to ensure continuing prosperity by centralized planning (a key feature of Marxist economics, and there's that connection) which inevitably leads to totalitarianism. Centralized planning is inherently undemocratic, because it requires that the will of a small minority be imposed upon the people. Where there is centralized planning, the individual becomes a mere means, to be used by the authority in the service of such abstractions as the 'social welfare' or the 'good of the community'. In the end, if the individual is no longer the end but the means to the 'greater good', it has to justify its existence within this context and can be disposed of, should it prove to be of no use to the state (cf. G.B. Shaw's statement in this regard). Such centralized systems also require effective propaganda, so that the people come to believe that the state's goals are theirs. If you look at the Nazi and Soviet posters depicted in the movie, this similarity becomes apparent. There is an abundance of literature of all varieties on this topic, from Friedrich von Hayek's seminal work “Road to Serfdom” to George Orwell's “1984”.
So, to come back to your initial point: Yes, there was strategic reasoning behind the alliance between the Soviets and the Nazis (non-aggression pact etc.), but more importantly, the methods employed by both the Nazis and the Soviets were identical, because their ideological underpinnings and the implementation thereof (concentration camps, etc.) were.

(3) Ok, that's a tough one. Of course, the Red Army dealt a deathly blow to the Nazi army (which is good), while at the same time the Soviets committed war crimes and other atrocities, also against their own people (which is bad). But I think the documentary is also somewhat vague or over-simplistic on this point – it juxtaposes pictures images of contemporary army parades and war crimes while continuing with the same marches in the background. What I get from the film (and also from some of the comments here) is the impression, that the successful fight against the Nazis outshines all the negative aspects the Red Army was a part of (cause after all, we beat the Nazis, eh?). In the same vein, I see this as an equally over-simplistic stance. Please bear in mind that we’re talking about the same army, which attacked Poland and Finland in 1939. The US armed forces contributed to the victory over Nazi Germany at least to a comparable extent (without being directly threatened by a Nazi invasion), and did so without previous unprovoked attacks on other countries (you surely know what I am trying to say here).

(4) I think the fourth item on your list is actually a pretty important one. First off, it is not about dragging any nation through the mud. The topic of this movie is, after all, the Soviet Union and not Francoist Spain. I think the argument of “they're not doing it either” is invalid and I will not let it count. Think about a documentary on Francoist Spain which addressed this very point, and then people on the IMDb forums wrote “but the Soviets never accounted for their crimes either”. I think you can see how this is leading nowhere. I also think Russia would do herself a great deal of good if the Russian people finally would get around to looking into this stretch of their history and try to come to terms with their past. Germany did it – heck, even the Rwandans are doing it – so nobody can tell me the Russians (the people of Dostoyevsky and Tolstoy and whoever else not) can’t do it.
The issue of acknowledging the past goes further than just 'doing the right thing'. I am by no means an expert on contemporary Russian society, but from what I can piece together the way Russia deals (or doesn’t) with its past has a direct impact on how Russia looks today. For all I know, the idea is that socialism wasn't really that bad, except you couldn't buy stuff. Maybe this has something to do with socialism existing in Russia for over 70 years (that's almost 3 generations), but I can easily see how people would be okay with someone like Putin running the country, repressing the opposition, having people locked away or worse, etc. And maybe people got used to an elite skimming of the cream, be it members of the KPSS then or the newly emerged oligarchs now.
You say it would have no effect on Russian Neo-Nazis if the government admitted to the crimes perpetrated by the Soviets, and I think you may be right. But I also think it would have an effect on the general populace, the ones who are no Neo-Nazis, in that they would be able to see not only what really happened under Soviet rule (I guess that people are more or less aware of this, they are not stupid after all), but moreover that the government has an open approach to admitting their past, maybe even their mistakes and allowing people to voice their opinion without fear of being repressed. Those crimes have to be punished and not covered up, because that's what should happen to criminals. Maybe then Neo-Nazis wouldn't be allowed to gain a foothold in society and to voice their opinion the way they seem to be doing it right now. Because after all, fascism and socialism are not that different.

Sorry my post got so long-winded, but I hope I was able to demonstrate why I think this documentary is worth watching, and not about bashing or denigrating the Russian people.

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Rather than go point by point I wanted to just make a general response to your post which I have to say made some good points.

In the end though, I'm pretty unconvinced that this is anything but a hackjob because it's so clearly written not to explore the history of the period but to write it in a specific manner. We all have biases, but what passes for a documentary should be scrutinized. Not everybody is well educated on the topic. Furthermore, if this is your first time you're exposed to this you're likely to walk away with a crazy over exaggeration of the facts, which I don't think is OK.

That's basically why I think this is a 1 out of 10 in terms documentaries and is not worth watching.

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In regards to the other points, like Francoism and Neo-Nazis, I think it's relevant but as you accurately state outside of the scope of this documentary. The point is, pointing fingers is futile because pretty much every country is guilty of this. Why include this except to exacerbate Russophobia? Seems to me like that was the main point of adding this to the film. In fact, judging by where it came from I'm pretty sure that was the whole point of the entire documentary.

Lastly, in regards to national socialism and socialism being fundamentally similar, I don't think there's any inherent connection between the two ideologies that the author stated. I think that has everything to do with how you want to perceive it. There are many examplea of countries that don't respect individual rights both past and present that could be compared which range from Saudi Arabia to modern capitalist China. While we could draw parallels between them and Nazi Germany just as the author did with the Soviet Union - wouldn't this seem forced? It only seemed reasonable in the documentary because it was in the same time frame and because of the way the argument was framed. In the end, I would define Marxism as a belief that individuals are equal and thus individuals are not allowed to use others for their benefits where as Nazism is closer to a belief a supreme race and its supreme values to which all should adhere. Sure the Soviet Union didn't adhere to the former, but can you blame Marx for that?

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Also. If the Russians and Soviets really were so evil overall, how did they manage to defeat the Nazis and win WW2 whereas the Nazi Germans didn't?

And with regards to the third point about the movie wanting Russia to stop celebrating the Victory Day and their victory in WW2, could the director mean something to the extent of - we think we were great heroes whereas in actuality we did a lot of bad things too, and that even defeating the Nazis doesn't change that?

I mean.

Couldn't the USSR win over Nazi Germany WITHOUT committing abusive atrocities and instead just fight the battle with big armed men, given the fact that, Nazis attacked them first, meaning that they did have a justification to fight back, but WHY sink to their level and ALSO commit atrocities against innocents as well?

Could it be because for some reason, at least some of them, weren't all innocent in the first place even before the attack?

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By the way, does anyone know why - USSR attacked Finland and Poland at the time? What were they trying to gain by doing so, and did both the soldiers and Stalin think that what they were doing is right and justified there or?

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By the way OP - why do you think that almost everyone in the world, even today, hates Russia so much and so much more than arguably any other country?

And why do you personally believe that it is being given more and more grievances in this day and age, both officially (by various organizations and political parties) and unofficially (in user comments by ordinary people on the internet) and do you believe it is in any way justified?

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