Anglophones who don't want to speak French
Typical profile of the anglophones of Montreal. They don't want to learn and speak French. Please, learn and speak the French language or shut up.
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MovieChat Forums > The Trotsky (2010) Discussion > Anglophones who don't want to speak Fren...
Where is this ire coming from? I know Francophones who don't want to speak english. Why can't Quebec society just evolve without legislated and enforced language and culture? Im not being critical, it's an honest question.
share''Learn French or shut up'' sounds very hateful and counterproductive...
I am a French Quebecer and I think it's very important for a person living in Quebec to understand and speak French in order to really participate in our society.
I just think you can't follow political and social debates as well if you do not understand French, and what kind of citizen does that make?
Also, just as someone living in a place where they would not understand the official language: you miss out a lot of interesting cultural events...
But as Geo pointed out, a francophone who does not want to learn English in Montreal is also missing out a lot, since after all we ARE in North America...
As a Montrealer who has essentially been bilingual since birth (I have a francophone mother and an anglophone father) the linguistic situation in Quebec has irked me for years. Literally half of my life is English while the other is French, so I've gotten used to being stuck in the middle of all kinds of conflicts and debates: Separatists whining about their freaking referendum, anglos belittling French culture or the accents of francophones speaking English, the whole paranoia of French Canadians regarding the so-called impending disappearance of their language (which by the way is NOT going to happen, no matter how many immigrants arrive here), francophones not being served in French even in downtown Montreal, etc.
As otaku ariane stated, both sides should get over their hang-ups and start learning more about their counterparts. The goal should be for everyone to be bilingual (at least) so that they can more fully appreciate the diversity and the uniqueness of the culture here in Montreal. Personally, every time someone attacks someone belonging to the other culture out of sheer ignorance and prejudice, it makes me hate them no matter how valid the essence of their point may be.
There have certainly been inequalities in the past, but let's be honest, today's Quebec is not that of the 1950's. Let's move on.
'I've learned that life is one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead'
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I don't blame French canadians for fighting to ensure that their culture survives, but sometimes some of them take it way too far.
Case in point: Back at my francophone high school, our music show was very nearly cancelled because some paranoid @ssholes from la Société St-Jean-Baptiste were up in arms over the theme of our show one year (the British Invasion). Bear in mind that the theme changed every year, and it only meant the songs would be sung in English. The show had been approved by the FRENCH school board and the complaint came from one of the parents who reported the supposed outrage. After a long debate, the show still went on as planned, but two years afterwards, all the English content had to be translated. That means that "Stairway to Heaven" became "Ascension vers les cieux" and was played instrumentally, without any vocals. LAME.
I also had a woman come in the French store where I work and rant for 15 minutes about how it was an utter insult and a crime against French culture that only 1 of the 8 songs she'd heard in our store was in French (we checked, it was actually 3 out of 7 or 8). We play a little bit of everything, rock, classical, jazz, world music, etc), but she seemed to be absolutely sure that the sample she heard was the irrefutable truth, and even filed a complaint. As if the sheer nerve and paranoia of this wacko wasn't enough, she discredited herself even more when she claimed that what little French music she had heard was "tacky and stupid". Everyone has different tastes, but since when do Jean Leloup or Edith Piaf fit under that label?).
Gosh, I apologize to those who have read this far, but I needed to get this off my chest. Some people just defy logic and reason. Instead of censoring or attacking other cultures, why not promote and celebrate your own? No one likes a whiner.
'I've learned that life is one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead'
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Very true, especially your point about chronic whiners. To me, French culture is as vibrant as ever. There are numerous festivals highlighting French culture, and the francophone music and film industry has a slew of great artists these days. There are simply francophones that will never be content and will always see anglophone culture (as well as any other foreign culture with sufficient presence in Quebec --I'm talking about immigration here) as a threat to their own. But you're right, this issue will never be settled, like so many long-lasting rifts between cultures or nations.
In the spirit of your last sentence..."what's so funny about peace, love and understanding?"
'I've learned that life is one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead'
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Thanks, I can see we see eye to eye about this topic!
I decided to check out the Trostky page and message board before I saw the film (that's actually when I first posted), and then saw it a few days ago. I was impressed with the movie, and I was happy to see so many solid performances by Canadian actors in it. Even though Bronstein's goals are somewhat simply (after all, he's only in high school), I found his character very funny and determined. His relationship with Alexandra was a little strange, though. Without reinventing anything, I thought it was an entertaining film with just enough references to revolutionary Russia (loved the Eisenstein reference in the dream sequences).
Have you seen the film? I assume it's playing in Toronto?
'I've learned that life is one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead'
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Yeah, I agree about Anne-Marie, her character was really sweet. And Jay's great. I remember him from way back in the cheesy-low-budget-yet-still-oddly-interesting-for-a-kid show "My Hometown", and from Undeclared. He's finally started getting the roles he deserves in big movies. Remember him in Million Dollar Baby? He wasn't on screen that often but I loved his character. Plus he got to act alongside Morgan Freeman, Clint Eastwood, and Hillary Swank!). Not to mention Tropic Thunder (although I haven't seen it) and many Judd Apatow flicks.
Your last comment intrigued me so I checked out your profile. Don't worry, we all have our...fixations? lol. If you check mine it's ALL 24 except for a few Trotsky posts. Yeah, my guilty pleasure of sorts.
How long have you been in Toronto, and why did you leave our wonderful city? (if it's not too personal).
'I've learned that life is one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead'
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Yeah, Toronto isn't as bad as people in Montreal like to claim it is. It's different, but it's not like the place is completely boring either. I know a few people that are from there.
Fetching Cody eh? I'll look it up. By the way, this conversation has pretty much hijacked the thread, lol.
'I've learned that life is one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead'
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Uniting over our love of Baruchel's performance! lol Hmm, perhaps we should stick to PM's.
'I've learned that life is one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead'
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http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1686532,00.html
The Death of French Culture.
The funny thing is that such protectionism doens't protect their culture, it simply makes it uncompetitive.
I think I absolutely have to move to Quebec... Just waiting for the financial means!
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Your statement that French "would 'never' disappear, no matter how many immigrants arrive here" is akin to young women telling older feminists that the feminist fight is not necessary since women have all the rights of men.... It is simply ignoring that without the constant FIGHT these things would NOT be here.
You seem to forget that just 50 years ago, only Quebecers who could speak English could get a job and French higher education was practically non existent.
Without a FIGHT, French language in Quebec would be like French language in Louisiana, a sorry little story people tell as bedtime stories.
In this century alone, planet Earth has lost more than half its cultural diversity. Language is not just a means of communication, it is a cultural vector and when you change your normal operational language, you loose an entire culture.
It is appropriate that Quebecers fight for their right to exist as a culture, and it is absolutely 'normal' for the colonial British force that is English Canada to wish to exterminate the it. These are 'normal' warfare attitudes.
To expect either side to shut up about it is ridiculus, the debate will only cease when Quebecers are finally assimilated, and I hope this never happens.
***So I've seen 4 movies/wk in theatre for a 1/4 century, call me crazy?**
When I made the above statement, I was referring to the current state of things in Quebec. I don't believe that there is any chance that French culture will disappear in the the short or medium term. I'm not debating or ignoring the fight that has led to the "loi 101", the regulations concerning mandatory french school for most residents of Quebec or any other of the victories the french-speaking movement has achieved over the last 50 years.
My point is that the way things stand now, I don't feel that French is in any kind of danger of disappearing. There are plenty of French-speaking families that will always be opposed to English culture, and who won't wake up one day and decide to switch languages. The laws in place right now ensure that our institutions remain predominently French, and French culture is blooming nowadays. By the same token, we are surrounded by English culture and can't simply ignore it. Many francophones prefer to criticize immigration laws or the English rather than work on their own culture. It simply feels like many people still think nothing has changed in 50 years and that the threat is still as alive, and still act as rabid as ever. It would be ridiculous to think that so much progress has been made yet that French is still under such a crushing assault. This is without even getting into the fact that outside parts of Montreal and the Eastern Townships, the population is massively French-speaking and is unlikely to change in the foreseeable future.
I also believe your view of English Canada wanting to exterminate French culture is just a bit exaggerated. I realize that some areas of Canada think very little of French culture, but for the most part, I'm pretty sure they don't spend their time devising plans to exterminate French Canadians and that the cultures aren't at war. There's some animosity to be sure, but I don't see what's so wrong about wishing that two cultures could simply live side by side without fighting. And yes, I realize it's utopian and will probably never happen. I do agree with much of what you said, especially the importance of preserving cultural diversity.
'I've learned that life is one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead'
How can you say that french is not going to disappear in Quebec? You can say that it is in the nature of things, that nothing can be done against that, but you cannot say that it is not going to disappear. This subject has become a taboo. It cannot be addressed without federalists throwing insults to anyone who raise a doubt about the issue of french in Quebec. And what is wrong about a referendum? You are against democracy? As for the goal of everyone being bilingual, this is another federalist nonsense. I have nothing about bilinguism or multilinguism, quite to the contrary, but other people may have a different goal in their live and achieve great things without english.
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Bowllegged fatholes who only dance with crackwhores. Where's the humanity??
Nothing is more beautiful than Oscar Homolka.
I love Montréal!
shareCool. Are you from Montreal or have you visited or studied here?
'I've learned that life is one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead'
Haha, I'm a native Montrealer and a proud French Canadian. Just wanted to butt in the thread!
shareGood stuff!
'I've learned that life is one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead'
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It's hard to tell someone to stop speaking one of the two NATIONAL languages of a country. The film itself was most likely set in English to have a wider demographic considering it's become some what of a universal language in trade and business.
I myself do speak and read French semi-fluently. Although it's a beautiful language, you need to accept that more people speak Hindu, Chinese, Spanish, and English. Especially in Hollywood and Bollywood, the two leading producers of cinema.
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Smiles From Mars. :)
I'm a french speaking Montrealer and a separatist, and I just wanted to clear something out about the referendums. It's not because we want to separate from Canada that we hate english people. As a matter of fact, I think the biggest mistake this organization ever made was to exclude the anglophones and transform that debate into english VS french.
I love Quebec's english community, their schools, the rich music, and etc. They are Quebecers, and I would be proud to build Quebec as a country with them. I think their are closer to the french speakers than they think, and more than the francophones think too. We often range on the same side of political issues and despise the english queen crap the same too :P
The only thing that bugs me is being served in english only downtown. I'm sorry, but if you don't speak BOTH (yes, I would be against french-only service in Montreal as well), you shouldn't be working with the public.
I think it's great when anglos are opened about speaking a little bit of french, but to be honest I don't mind too much. On the other hand, it's an handicap not to speak english a little when you're a french speaker. And you miss out on all those good movies in their original language... :)
It is comments like these why I left Montreal, and like so many others, moved to Toronto. I understand French but speak it with a heavy anglophone accent, I sorry, as it is not my mother tongue I just can't help myself (It took my long enough to pronounce English correctly, as a child I could not pronounce my 'R's in English and spent countless hours with a speak therapist).
I remember a number of times feeling unwelcome in my own city (Montreal). Among many, the example that stands out most in my head is when I was inline for a show and the person (a Francophone talking in English to me) in front of me asked "What are you doing here". I responded "I'm going to the show" to which the person in front asked "no, why are you in Quebec" The implication, after a further discussion was clear, anglophones have no place in the province.
After years of feeling ostracized and belittled for failing to speak French fluently hard decision to move (I will admit that the majority of people were supportive of my attempts, and often francophones that I interacted with would either try to correct my pronounciation, or if it got bad enough either converse with me or in English, or what I found unique in Quebec we would converse in two languages, me talking in English and them in French). I made the I hate to admit it but the minority of belligerence is what caused me to move, the vocal minority overshadowed the humble majority.
I feel sad for the Province; it is robbing its youth of a future. Let’s ignore the brain drain for now. For whatever reason, English has become the universal language. People in every country talk their native language at home, on the streets and in public, but for business English is imperative. Quebec on the other hand is attempting to prevent this global shift from occurring inside the province.
Quebec is currently a big fish in a small pond (Canada being the small pond). It is competing in Canada admirably, but on a global scale it no longer can compete. This is why the population of the province has not grown with the rest of Canada, this is why headquarter of business are no longer located in Quebec. The province has been stagnate for years.
It is one thing to protect culture, it is another to deprive it's citizens of the chance to compete global. The best way to spread culture is by becoming a global player, having people come visit the province, have Quebecers go abroad and promote the province (both on personal and business trips.) Quebec is world class, but there is no doubt that its status is dwindling. In the 1970's if you were to ask a foreigner to name a Canadian city, a city in Quebec would likely be named first. Ask the same question now and the result is no where as certain. How can a culture grow, when it is being forgotten on a global scale? Why can so many other countries have rich and vibrant cultures, yet allow business to be conducted in English. I was in Prague recently, I found the Czech people to be some of the most unique on the planet; the had a deep culture and I did no perceive a decline in the Czech langue, yet the majority of the population that I met knew English because they knew it was imperative to know to compete on a global scale.
It is not too late to save things, with the talk of a third party to challenge the one mindedness of the PQ party, perhaps change will be enacted.
It is sad that in my experience the separatist movement appears to be more about reducing anglophone culture than propping up francophone culture; these actions only hurt both cultures.
I asked the original poster why should the onus only be on anglophones to learn and speak French and not also on the Francophones to to learn and speak English?
English is not important because there is French and English Canada, English is important because it the method of communication around the globe.
To the OP: I have never come across an English person who "does not want to speak French". I am an anglophone with almost entirely French blood, and I attended French schools my whole life. I have always been around French-speaking anglophones, and they are all mighty proud of their ability to speak French. People love to flaunt it, trust me! What I did notice when I lived in Quebec for a while though, is that French people don't want to acknowledge that they are actually French. I came across so many girls with strong French accents who would insist that English was their "first language". And when I told them I like their French accents, they gave me dirty looks. Woooow.
In Quebec right now, I think more and more young people are trying to be "English". Whereas here in Ottawa, tons of English people want to be identified as "French".
I get the feeling you're violating somebody's basic human rights here...
OP is a jackass who's not at all representative of the opinion of the majority of francophones in Montreal.
Anglos, we love your accent, don't be afraid to sport it...
Allez, bonne journée!
I wish the Frenchies just separate. English Canada has been sucking their c*ck ever since Trudeau and serving them everything on a platter.
Bilingualism is ruining this country and my money is going towards this misplaced ideal.
Just separate, Frenchies. Separate and lie in your own filth. If Canada had any balls it would drop the entire bilingualism thing and just have no official language at all.
Anyone living in the southern part of Quebec should learn French, at least as much as to handle daily matters (bank, store etc). The northern part of Quebec is sparsely populated and contains speaker of Inuit and Cree. It is very tolerant to have separate schools in English for anglophones. I never heard whether there are separate schools for francophones in other provinces. They are a large minority.
Anglophones and North American Hispanics are both resistant groups to learning other languages. As a result they've spread their languages over a large area of the earth and wield a linguistic influence disproportionately large compared to their number of speakers, although their numbers are also large.
Many other languages are in danger of being eclipsed by those two, just as French has eclipsed many other smaller colonial languages elsewhere.
Chapaev36, what about people like me, who are anglophones, but who have strong ties to Quebec, and who speak French? I could never live in a world where there was no bilingualism. I need that to express myself! I think franco-ontariens are always left out of the equation when people talk about Quebec separation. What about us not entirely French, not entirely English people?
I get the feeling you're violating somebody's basic human rights here...
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I LOL when we saw a sign for the J.Pariseau english high school
shareThey spoke English most of the time, but interestingly, the English-speaking people also spoke to each other in French some of the time, too. Not just to French-speaking Montrealers, but to other English-speaking Montrealers. That kind of makes your comment a little redundant, I would think?
Violet
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NotSoNewGuy has it dead on. Growing up in Kebec and never EVER being accepted other than being "les autres", I stopped trying to be one of them and focused on being Canadian, which, let's face it, most Kebeckers want nothing to do with. I speak French well enough to be considered bilingual in every other province (even by francophones)but the anglophobia in that province (and wherever large francophone communities are; it is almost as bad in New Brunswick and there is discord being sown in eastern Ontario) was too much to put up with and not worth it. I am offended that I have to be put in the position of defending my language and my citizenship almost every time I encounter intolerant francophones there to the point where I never speak French in Kebec any more (with the rare exception of when a francophone speaks English to me, which is almost unheard of).
I love the fact that English Montrealers are making it in Hollywood, although I don't know that Jay Baruchel or Jessica Pare would count (they have French parents). Kebec refuses to recognize any talent emanating from their borders, consistent with its siege mentality, actively suppressing the English language to this day (I know; I marched for English rights in 2011 and we would have been attacked were it not for police presence; so much for "tolerant Kebecers") if they do not trumpet their francophone background and hide their English one. It is sickening and sad, and I fear too many Americans are not (and should be) aware of this.
I don't believe EVERY French-speaking Kebecer is an anglophobic anti-Canadian separatist zealot. But a recent survey showed that 60% of Kebecers ADMITTED they were racist and "proud" of it, so I would estimate that 70-80% are. And that is too large a proportion to discount...or to live with. I spent almost 40 years trying before I became a "language refugee" and emigrated to Toronto, where the lack of French (and anglophobia) is a breath of fresh air I had almost given up on.
I have no idea what this thread has to do with the movie, but anything that gives the lie to Kebec/Montreal being ONLY French (as opposed to French-dominated)is a welcome, needed and necessary change.
A small list of ENGLISH entertainers from Quebec: Bill Shatner; Elisha Cuthbert; Colm Feore (I know, born in the States but we adopted him); Glenn Ford; Leonard Cohen; Rachelle Lefebvre; Colleen Dewhurst; Roger Abbott; Don Ferguson; Corey Hart; Bruce Greenwood; Oliver Jones; Andy Kim; the singing McGarrigle sisters; Oscar Peterson; Caroline Rhea; Sam Roberts; Mort Sahl; Norma Shearer; Rufus Wainwright; the band April Wine; musician Melissa Auf Der Mar; Brigitte Bako; Charlie Biddle; and the list goes on. They are not Kebecers---they are Canadian singers, actors, and comedians who just overcame the misfortune of being born in and growing up in Kebec.
Phew....I apologize for the length of this post but after so much francophone-based propaganda, I simply felt the truth about Kebec is long overdue.
I've come across aggressively racist Engish-speakers who are very rude and hurtful to francophone quebecoises, which is very odd given that Quebec is a French-speaking country with French as its official language, and yet you've got people being like this even in Quebec... I suppose I shouldn't be that surprised though, because I came across English, American and Australian people getting angry at French people in France who either didn't speak English or didn't speak well enough for those outrageous anglophones... Being anglophone myself, I was not only annoyed and angry at them for their ridiculous rudeness (going to someone else's country and demanding they speak to you in your language), but also very embarrassed, as you don't need anything more than a most basic level to make yourself understood.
Having encountered so many anglophones with this kind of attitude in Italy and Spain as well, I've come to accept that English-speaking people have a tendency to become lazy and arrogant and expect everyone else to speak their language, even when they are in non-anglophone countries.
In regards to your post above, are you saying that you speak French to quebecois people and they refuse to speak to you in French? Because if that is what you are saying, then that sounds rather odd to me - I mean, even if your French vocabulary is bad and you have a terrible accent, I'm sure most francophones would be happy that you're not being a stereotypical anglophone who refuses to learn French, and in a very short time of speaking French, your French would improve by leaps and bounds.
Also, though you mentioned Rufus and the McGarrigles, you left out the sublime Martha Wainwright... And I've never heard that they don't identify as Montrealers and Quebecoises. After all, if what you are saying is right, then why would they sing in French? - So I doubt very much that you are telling the truth, and until I see them say so, I don't believe that for a moment.
Violet
(An anglophone who loves French and is willing to make the effort to speak languages other than English)
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1) Quebec is not a country. Never has been, despite racist francophones wanting to make it so and believing it to be so.
2) French as Quebec's ***only*** official language goes against the constitution (i.e. illegal).
3) There are idiot anglophones as well.
4) Quebecois are just as racist and angry in south Florida where they congregate. And they are in the minority there. I have not been there in years but others have, and have seen their arrogance close up.
5) When I go to Kebec, I am STILL in MY country and MY language should be respected.
6) I speak French to non-Quebecois French speakers outside Kebec all the time.
7) Have you ever been yelled at or told to (the equivalent of) "speak white" in Kebec? I have. Not last century. Not last decade even. In the last year. More than once.
8) If you don't need more than a basic knowledge of English to make yourself understood, why do so many Quebecois merchants refuse to perform that courtesy for customers instead of arguing/yelling at them?
9) "are you saying that you speak French to quebecois people and they refuse to speak to you in French?" No, and I don't know how in the world you twisted what I said into that.
10) I did not mean to slight Martha Wainwright. The list I mentioned was not meant to be exhaustive and I am frankly not familiar with her works. I believe the sisters did identify themselves as Montrealers. Not as Quebecois. Why should they? They are not treated as such nor recognized as such. They are and will always be "les autres". Just like most anglophones are.
11) You can choose to not believe me, or you can go to the areas I went to and see for yourself. Try marching for ENGLISH rights one time. (Write me from the hospital.) And try marching on June 24 with a CANADIAN flag if you dare. No racism? Don't make me laugh.
I didn't "twist" what you said, I asked you a simple question because that appeared to be what you were saying.
In answer to your other points, Quebec is most definitely a country - it is a country within a country, just like the Mohawk nation is a country within a country. It's really not that difficult to understand, for those with an open mind and no agenda to push. As for the legality of Quebec's official language being French, well, if it were illegal, then since there are more anglophones in Canada than francophones in Quebec and the rest of Canada, then I'm sure either that law would have been changed, or else the constitution would have been ammended (which from memory it was).
Lastly, how is speaking French "speaking white", as you put it? Have you never heard of Haiti, or of the African countries where people speak French? There might be some racism within the francosphere, but there's a lot more within the anglosphere, especially in the USA.
Violet
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For some reason my reply to you was deleted. If that is the case, there is no point in me making the effort to reply in the future. Visit me at the NB Language Fairness group page or other Facebook pages.
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