It's about Ozymandias
From Wikipedia
Tales of the Black Freighter
Watchmen features a story within a story in the form of Tales of the Black Freighter, a fictional comic book from which scenes appear in issues three, five, eight, nine, ten, and eleven. The fictional comic's story, "Marooned", is read by a black youth in New York City. Moore and Gibbons conceived a pirate comic because they reasoned that since the characters of Watchmen experience superheroes in real life, "they probably wouldn't be at all interested in superhero comics." Gibbons suggested a pirate theme, and Moore agreed in part because he is "a big [Berthold] Brecht fan": the Black Freighter alludes to the song "Seeräuberjenny" ("Pirate Jenny") from Brecht's Threepenny Opera. Moore theorized that since superheroes existed, and existed as "objects of fear, loathing, and scorn, the main superheroes quickly fell out of popularity in comic books, as we suggest. Mainly, genres like horror, science fiction, and piracy, particularly piracy, became prominent--with EC riding the crest of the wave." Moore felt that "the imagery of the whole pirate genre is so rich and dark that it provided a perfect counterpoint to the contemporary world of Watchmen". The writer expanded upon the premise so that its presentation in the story would add subtext and allegory. The supplemental article detailing the fictional history of Tales of the Black Freighter at the end of issue five credits real-life artist Joe Orlando as a major contributor to the series. Moore chose Orlando because he felt that if pirate stories were popular in the Watchmen universe that DC editor Julius Schwartz might have tried to lure the artist over to the company to draw a pirate comic book. Orlando contributed a drawing designed as if it were a page from the fake title to the supplemental piece.
"Marooned" tells the story of a young mariner's journey to warn his home town of the coming of the Black Freighter after he survives the destruction of his own ship. According to Richard Reynolds, during the mariner's journey he is "forced by the urgency of his mission to shed one inhibition after another", including using the bodies of his dead shipmates as a make-shift raft and mistakenly killing innocent people as he makes his way to town. When he finally returns home, believing it to already be under the occupation of the ship's crew, he accidentally attacks his own wife in their darkened home. Afterward, he returns to the sea shore, where he finds the Black Freighter; he swims out to sea and climbs aboard the ship. Moore has said that the story of The Black Freighter ends up specifically describing "the story of Adrian Veidt". Reynolds states that just like Veidt, the protagonist of "Marooned" "hopes to stave off disaster by using the dead bodies of his former comrades as a means of reach his goal". Moore has said that "Marooned" can also be used as a counterpoint to other parts of the story, such as Rorschach's capture and Dr. Manhattan's self-exile on Mars.
Adrien mentions in his last conversation with Jon a nightmare he has had repeatedly about swimming toward something monstrous.
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Eraunius
15 years ago
A nice visual parallel: When the captain unwraps his dead comrade from the sail, his blood makes a Rorschach pattern on the canvas.
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mk1
15 years ago
Thank you all for your replies.
So the connection with Veidt is he "hopes to stave off disaster by using the dead bodies of his former comrades as a means of reach his goal". Makes sense.
Dr. Manhattan's self-exile on Mars is similar to the people of Davidstown seeing the Mariner as a murderer, and the Mariner, unable to cope, runs away.
But how does it allude to Rorschach's capture? I don't understand why a Rorschach blot would be on the sail.
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jax1492
15 years ago
Just asking but did you see both the movie and the tale of the black freighter or read the comics? well, here is my take as for the Rorschach blot it was symbolizing his parallels to the character Rorschach and that's about all since its a comic that takes place inside the watchmen comics.
as for the Rorschach capture, if you have seen the movie or read the comic he tries and tries to save people and make things right like the main character in this story ... but what happens is he becomes what he is trying to save people from. in watchmen Rorschach is setup and framed for murder and sent to jail with the people he previously sent to jail so now he is no better than they are, because now people see him as a murder and criminal.
in this story the sailor is trying to save the people from the pirates who are going to kill the towns people, but he ends up being the one they should be fearing the whole time and he joins the pirates at the end (i assume he will be a ghost pirate also?) like Rorschach ends up in jail with the other criminals ... make sense?
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roysdonben
15 years ago
I think that the story really parallels Ozymandias over Rorshach. Rorschach never kills anyone innocent nor is he ever corrupted.
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GuruAskew
15 years ago
There's no law that says you can't draw parallels with multiple characters.
As a "Watchmen" fan for about a decade I've always found the Ozymandias parallel to be the most obvious but have still acknowledged the Rorschach and Dr. Manhattan parallels.
Another parallel is the resignation and ultimate acceptance given by Dan, Laurie and Dr. Manhattan, this could be seen as a parallel of the mariner's boarding of the black freighter at the end.
It's art so it's a bit abstract, it's not something as simple as "mariner = Ozymandias".
But ultimately I do believe that it's primarily Ozymandias with smaller parallels to other characters and situations here and there.
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roysdonben
15 years ago
i also think that the other sailor, the captains best friend, seems to be like the comedian. his role kinda parallels conversations the comedian had with both dr. manhattan and ozy.
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roybatty-1
15 years ago
I favor the idea that Black Freighter is analogous to Ozymandias' story arc. There are a lot of echoes to Rorschach as well ... But consider that this may have more to do with the fact that Rorschach threatens to derail Ozymandias' plans. So in BF, 'sharks' attack, and the mariner eats them, eats 'raw shark.' (Too bad this was not in the cartoon.)
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wilgus28
15 years ago
Each principle character can be seen as the Mariner but I think Ozymandias as the Mariner, Rorschach as the usurper is the most potent metaphor (but it all depends on who you take sides with).
Whichever character you cast as the Mariner likely reveals something about your psyche. Personally, I tend to think Rorschach is a little more honest about the world and Veidt the deluded one. What if if "Marooned" is a reflection rather than an analogy? If it conversely mirrors the main plotline of Watchmen, then wouldn't the one character whom the world sees as sane (Adrian Veidt - the smartest man in the world) be the insane Mariner and the character whom the world sees as insane (Rorschach - the violent nihilist detective) represent something that is honest about the insanity of the world (and therefore "sane") like the attacking shark or the Captain of the Black Freighter coming in to reclaim the Mariner from his delusions of order? It all depends upon whether you see the world as inherently orderly or inherently depraved, whether the basic structure of humanity is a utopian city, or a band of murderous buccaneers.
You could easily pull the same trick with the Comedian and Dr. Manhattan.
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roysdonben
15 years ago
"raw shark". i actually had to look up and i think thats really cool. do you think that was intentional?
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roybatty-1
15 years ago
I certainly think it was intentional. There is a line in the book where the cops get a phone call (informing on and setting Rorshach up for arrest), but they misunderstand the name and the cop says "Raw Shark? What the hell is raw shark?" The line happens just after a Black freighter episode where the mariner eats shark. Its one of my very favorite play on words in the book, and since it clearly associates the shark from BF w/ Rorschach, I prefer to see the Mariner as being associated w/ Ozymandias, who must find a way to deal w/ Rorschach.
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Black_Gestapo
15 years ago
Actually, Rorschach does kill someone innocent. At the end of the first chapter, Nite Owl II mentions that Rorschach threw a masochist pretending to be a supervillain down an elevator shaft.
One of the main points of the chapter "The Abyss Gazes Also" is to show that, in fighting monsters, Rorschach has himself become a monster (or rather that Walter Kovacs the man has become Rorschach the monster). This is directly paralleled in the protagonist of The Black Freighter, whose response to imagined evil deeds is to commit evil deeds himself.
There is also a parallel here to the nuclear standoff between the US and the Soviets, which presumably accounts for the "race against time" element of the story.
The fact that the figure of the mariner draws parallels with both Ozymandias and Rorschach serves only to highlight the "fearful symmetry" between them.
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15 years ago
[deleted]
no_more_scotch_eggs
15 years ago
"CC very probably gave Rorschach reason to think that CC was an evil guy."
and that makes it ok then...? blame the victim, why don't you...?! Captain Carnage was a poor, damaged, harmless man with clear mental health problems. Rorschach's approach was unable to comprehend this; people are either innocent, or guilty; and if he thinks they are guilty, they *are* guilty, and he has the right to pass a death sentence.
"But it's a big leap to say that CC was an innocent, or that Rorschach had become a monster"
The reference to CC is there to show exactly this point: that by reducing the world to the cartoon good/evil dichotomy, he will end up killing those that do not deserve it- and that he has indeed become a monster.
They are all monsters- Veidt, Manhatten, the Comedian, and Rorschach, each in their own way. that's one of the core points of the story....
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15 years ago
[deleted]
no_more_scotch_eggs
15 years ago
i would say that anyone who has a belief system that causes them to act in a way that will inevitably result in killing blameless people, and who lacks the capacity to change to stop it happening again, *is* a monster
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15 years ago
[deleted]
no_more_scotch_eggs
15 years ago
if they sentenced people to death on flimsy evidence and for trivial misdemeanours, yes, i'd probably say they were....
wouldn't you...?
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15 years ago
[deleted]
no_more_scotch_eggs
15 years ago
hi Trogdooor... its a bit quiet on this board... i think we're the only people that have been here for weeks...!
anyway, you said-
"And if you know anything about death sentences (and forensic justice in general) you know that they do it on terribly flimsy evidence, and frequently are proven to have gotten it wrong"
well... the legal test is 'beyond reasonable doubt'; and i think it is stretching the point to absurbity to state that it is routine that serious crimes are convicted on 'terribly flimsy evidence'. in the UK anyway.
but it is also undeniable that miscarriages of justice occur. thats why we dont have the death penalty any more.
but back to poor old CC. I dont think its stretching anything at all to say he was an innocent. And one with serious mental health problems to boot. Rorschie's take on the world is so rigid and his responses are so extreme, he cant tell the difference between paedophile killers and those in need of psychiatric help, and metes out the same violent end to both.
i dont think its an accident that the line about CC is in there; its not Moore chucking in a cheap gag. Its there to show us how far Rorschach had strayed from any reasonable morality.
Still dont believe me? Look at the name of the chapter where Rorschach is imprisoned and reveals his backstory via the psychiatrist... "The Abyss Gazes Also". Its a quote from Nietzsche. Look it up, its rather relevant to the point we're discussing...
cheers
NMSE
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15 years ago
[deleted]
no_more_scotch_eggs
15 years ago
oh yes, i do realise the death penalty will result in dead people who were innocent; and my point about the UK isn't irrelevant, its central to the point in hand. you asked about whether a judge would be a monster for using the death penalty; my reply is that having capital punishment runs that risk, yes, and thats why the UK abolished it. Its the settled position of the political establishment in UK, and Europe as a whole, (though not the electorate- polls consistently find a majority in favour of capital punishment) that a system that knows it will sometime execute innocent people is wrong. Its not acceptable to say 'you cant make an omelette without breaking a few eggs'; the state must err on the side of caution, to avoid the possibility of the situation you describe- the judicial system becoming, in effect, a monster
but in answer to your point: even in the US there is due process in a court; the evidence is tested, and a jury has to be persuaded of guilt. There is recourse to appeal, and the decision over punishment is separated from that over guilt. So, just by having capital punishment, does not inevitably mean using it makes the judge a monster, provided due diligence to establish guilt beyond all reasonable doubt is taken.
However: if a court behaved like Rorschach then the Judge would indeed be a monster.
And finally: your interpretation of the quote is one, but not the only one. I;d argue its just as much about Rorschach himself. The full quote is
"He who fights too long against dragons becomes a dragon himself; and if you gaze too long into the abyss, the abyss will gaze into you" (from On the Genealogy of Morals).
The psychiatrist may have been 'fighting dragons', in his treatment of mentally disordered offenders, but there is no evidence he has become one. Walter Kovacs, however, has; to the point he no longer recognises himself as Kovacs, only as Rorschach.
Interesting debate, though...
cheers
NMSE
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kodax2
15 years ago
Thanks for explaining. I had been wondering for awhile the purpose of this and your explanation makes sense. It falls in line nicely with Moore's take on vigilantism in the GN provides a nice commentary of what Moore thought of Vehts's solution. The GN does not pass judgment on the outcome and almost seems like Moore might be condoning it but the pirate story gives an interesting moral compass to the bigger story that simply makes no attempt to do this.
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