Sadly, we've reached the "laughing out loud" - presumably derisively - stage, but I'll answer anyway,
no one has "agreed to" anything if they live in the land of their birth.
This is only true until a person reaches the age of majority. After that, we are all as free as our talents permit to live wherever we choose. At various times, I have genuinely considered moving to three other countries, all of which would have accepted me. I did move abroad for a decade, and retain dual nationality, but I returned for family reasons. I may leave again.
And even if they had, the government is clearly not holding up its end of the agreement.
If the government isn't holding up their end of the bargain then you have two choices: you can change things from within or leave. Attempting to change things from within doesn't seem like a realistic option to me.
Why bother hanging around, banging my head against a brick wall, when I could just get on a 'plane? (Not everyone has my freedom to move - more below.)
There is nothing noble about fighting a doomed battle, that may involve breaking laws that
are enforced, especially when the majority of the population cannot even see, or won't admit, the problems.
You ASSume that vigilantes are ignoble, and that is usual for those who have such irrational objections to vigilance.
Let's not bring sturdy quadrupeds into this, OK?
I assume that the majority of vigilantes are trying to do the right thing for the right reasons: not everyone is as lucky as me in being able to freely emigrate, so they may have to stay and make the best they can of a bad situation.
However, any sort of vigilantism provides a perfect cover and "group justification" for thugs and sadists. This is my foremost reservation about the whole idea.
I would only consider participating in a vigilante group, if its members had to:
- undergo in-depth background investigations;
- careful psychological screening, and
- lengthy and in-depth training in psychology and defensive martial arts (e.g. Aikido).
I would also want the members to wear back and front facing, shoulder-mounted, light and IR video cameras, with the signal streamed directly to a tamper-proof server. Finally, I'd want there to be a legal fund of sufficient size to defend member vigilantes against
unfair civil suits, and to pay timely restitution should a vigilante mess-up.
In short, I would only feel comfortable participating in a vigilante group that, almost certainly, would be too costly to be viable. (I would like to see the police adopt my suggestions, where they haven't already.)
However, if you were going to spend that much time (with its associated opportunity cost) and spend that much money, why not fund a "special officers" group within a local police force? Reaching an agreement with the government over this may be difficult, but perhaps (like Charter Schools) it could be done.
Conversely, you ASSume the government and its instruments are good.
Rubbish. I assume most governments work against the interests of the people, in at least some respects. (e.g. the NSA and Five Eyes surveillance, ignoring vast corporate tax loopholes that could fund social welfare programs, racial profiling, under-taxation of mining operations, capitulating to the demands of lobbyists and those who finance their campaigns, etc.)
However, on balance, I believe the government is (on average) better than the alternatives. If I didn't, I would tear up the social contract, emigrate, and sign another one.
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10 years ago
[deleted]
Simon-140
10 years ago
it's a pro-statist position.
Yes, I like living in civilised states, for all the reasons that Hobbes, John Locke and Rousseau gave, and more recent thinkers have given. (Locke was especially influential on the authors of the US constitution.)
A two-dimensional, slavish mentality
Slavish? If I don't like my "owners" I say *beep* you" and leave, albeit for another "owner." If this is slavery then I'm fine with it. I don't like physical conflicts and I'm not very good with them. I'm far happier when I'm creating something rather than tearing something down, let alone killing people.
As I said, no one agrees to anything when they live in the land of their birth.
And as I said, once you've reached majority, you're free to leave. I see no difference between the naturalised citizens of a nation and those who were born there. I have no particular love for the land of my birth: that land was just an accident of history and geography.
The government can "demand" all the respect that they wish, but they rarely get any from me. (As for the silly line that I've often heard - albeit not from you - that government positions deserve respect even if you despise the incumbent, I take that as seriously as transubstantiation.)
Your position that we are obligated to obey or leave provides all one anyone needs to know about you
You are trying to put words in my mouth. What I wrote was that these two positions are the easiest and most practical courses
for me. People who find themselves
trapped in an intolerable country, that persecutes them or their fellow citizens, may choose to stay and fight. Personally, I would do almost anything to avoid that.
If you want to start throwing words like "coward" around, feel free: as I pacifist, I'm used to it.
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