Do you think Connor planned to have sex with Mia all along or do you think he was just wasted and the moment got the better of him?
I am leaning toward the latter. I don't think he was really interested in Mia sexually for the most part, he was interested in being her friend. I think if he really was into younger girls then he wouldn't have just left, and probably would have tried to continue to see her.
What do you think?
Engineering it from the moment he saw her.
[deleted]
Evanmang, what an insightful response! I agree with u entirely. I just watched the movie tonite on netflix and found the film engrossing and disturbing. I really like michael fassbender and its the reason I watched, I must say..he did a great job at playing a scumbag. I also thought at the very beginning of connors arrival...what does an obviously middles class/good looking man want with mias white trash mother?? I could see him having a drunken one night stand with her but once he sobers up..he would run for the hills. The family seemingly is so beneath him. The key to why he stays is that first shirtless scene with him and mia. He has an interest in her and has the maturity and experience to know that women(even young ones like mia) easily falls for his charms. I totally think he wants to seduce mia/and he obviously is having problems with his wife at home..so this poor family is easy prey for him to worm his way in for a few wks! I think the relationship between mia and connor is meant to show that vulnerable people are often easily manipulated/abused and discarded..helpless to stop it becuz they are desperate for any kindness as a reprieve from their misery. Look at mias mother...she should be asking more questions of connor before she has him move in..but she wants a man so bad..she doesn't dare ask. To me, from the beginning I never really saw connor have any real interest in the mother other than to screw her..he talks to mia/shows an interest in mia...the prize was always mia. Ur post..listing everything he did to manipulate her..shows his intentions clearly were predatory from the start. The key is he leaves and goes back home the very next morning. Which begs the question..couldn't he have always gone home? Remember the convo mia overhears where he says "he will try and stop by later"..his wife wanted him home. I think he's a serial cheater..who occasionally takes a holiday from his family and the wife puts up with it..otherwise there's no way he could just go home the next morning. I thought it wrong 4 mia to scare his daughter..but hopefully it scares him and he will think twice about preying on the helpless..cuz his daughter could have been a victim.
As far as Connor having sex with Mom with the door open, he looks directly at Mia TWICE during the sex. He was totally showing off his moves for her to get her hot and bothered.
shareAgree with you, it all got too much for him and he was weak.
shareI also wondered how much the mother really knew about what was going on too. In an early-ish scene, the way that she tells Mia to put her clothes on in front of Connor (they're all in the kitchen having breakfast just before driving out to the river, I think is the scene) made me wonder if she knew what he might be capable of. There was something about this exchange here which suggested that the mother knew something.
This was a really well made film. Tough to watch but brilliantly done. Arnold is a great film-maker.
The hint is when Mom glances back and forth between Connor and Mia. She knew what was up. She probably chose to ignore it because she was desperate to keep Connor around.
shareNo, it was pretty obvious he wasn't seeing her sexually up until one point. The film intentionally made that very clear! It went something like this:
He saw her as a kid at first. e.g. when he put her to bed and took her pants off it was made VERY obvious by the director that he wasn't seeing her in a sexual way,
then he realised that she had a crush on him so he felt flattered and "played her" for a little while just for the "fun" of it.
and finally when the moment was right(her saying she previously had sex with a guy, made him see her more as a woman) and he was waisted he slept with her. This is not the story of an "evil" man who had a plan all along, it just happened.
I agree that it wasn't planned. He was happy with casual sex with the mother and somewhere to crash. I think he found Mia interesting and refreshing compared to the clingy, desperate mum. For me the part where it looked like he first felt something different to her was when he gave her the piggy back ride at the pond.
share
U really think its appropriate for a man to come into a kitchen with an underage girl hes never seen--shirtless?? As the movie clearly shows later on, he comes from a background where he should KNOW better. Also, the scene where he takes her to bed--ahh--he doesnt need to take her pants off--rewatch--he knows shes awake--the heavy breathing the director puts in the audio--its meant to alarm us and be seductive at the same time. HE knows when shes watching him screw her mother too--rewatch!!So creeepy. And, yes I dont know which one of you said it, but Connor is totally paying attention to Mia in the kitchen scene and not the mother--the mother sees this--and its not about "protecting" her doctor--she sees her daughter as competition--read up on predators--they always go for vulnerable people--they are real charmers--right before they bite.
This is not about what's appropriate or not. The guy is a douche, he doesn't care! He went into their home and "slept" with their mother, organised parties and got drunk...you think he would care about her seeing him without a shirt? Of course from a point on he had his eye on her (eg noticing Mia watching them having sex with the mother and still kept going at it), but that was later in the movie! That's all i'm saying! That at first he didn't have plans for her! He gradually moved from being indifferent, then starting noticing her, then being flattered at her crush on him, then teasing her because of it and finally did the move. That's the way i see it at least.
share
We agree that hes a douche at least.lol I think its hard at least from many of the posts ive read, for people to call connor out for what he is. This family is poor and vulnerable and hes "using" them for a place to crash from the start--he gives them a glimpse at some stability, all along knowing his married with child and will head back to them. Thats a douche! Anyway, Beyond the shirtless initial encounter--theres the scene wheres hes shirtless and gives her the camera and leans in to have her smell his cologne(what kind of father figure does that?) then he playfully spanks her(how inappropriate/creepy), the piggy back sequence(why? shes 15 not 7), his obvious jealousy at her "boyfriend" when she visits his work. Can we say that Connor knew this woman has a teen daughter and planned it? No. But, I do think after the kitchen encounter--his interest was Mia. and, he makes a series of choices to stay and woo her. Her mother was a mindless slut--a one night stand at the most. Mia was intriguing to him, and he works at having a "friendship" with her--knowing full well shes attracted to him. Hes intentions are never noble because hes under their roof as a liar. Btw, he never shows much attention to mias sister, His eyes and attention are on Mia--and especially after the scene where Connors eyes are all over mias half dressed body and they all agree to go on a roadtrip together--I knew he wanted her. I think connor is a philanderer, I doubt Mias mom is the first woman he has strayed with..however, I dont think he normally is interested in teens, Mia simply intrigues him, and he figures --why not? And he almost gets away it..if Mia hadnt tracked him down.
Damn, you put forward a good argument! I do actually agree with a lot of your points. Obviously he is a creep in that he's cheating on his wife and child and being untruthful to Mia's family even if he is a charming creep. He did find Mia more interesting than the mum who was really just an easy lay and a somewhere to stay. The spanking was weird and I did think whoa, it just didn't seem to fit with Connor's persona. I think he thought he could flirt a little to pass the time but could keep it under control and not go there. The piggyback was the first time that I felt he looked like things were starting to unravel for him. I didn't see the piggyback as that sinister as she was shoeless and had hurt her foot but it definitely was lie their first intimate moment, to me anyway. I agree that he had cheated before and probably wasn't that interested in young girls until the situation with Mia which I think took him be surprise. The first time she visited him at work he just seemed concerned, both for her and the fact his lies were intruding on his real life. The second time was different as she had brought her "boyfriend" and it did change the dynamic and made him compete for attention.
I just responded really to posters who were practical calling him a pedophile and that his intentions were for sex with Mia right from the start and that was the only reason he stayed around. I believe he was truly confused and sorry at what happened with Mia and realised he had stepped way over the line. I don't think he was happy at all that she was so young. I just find this movie and characters really moving and intriguing. Need to look up some of the interviews with the cast and director. At least it got lots of people talking.
Oh I agree with you, Connor is not a pedophile. And people shouldn't call him that. His character and Mia's are interesting because they tap into things that are not black and white, although we as an audience would like them to be. Hell, I think Connor(Michael Fassbender) is hot as an adult woman, and I certainly don't see any fault in Mia thinking he's attractive at 15! lol I had to watch the film twice to really catch a few things that I at first overlooked because of my attraction to Fassbender. But, in re-watching, I see how inappropriate he's being with Mia from the start. At the end of the day, he's a 30 something adult male with a family and a job, and clearly is being a jerk not only to his wife, but to Mia's sad sap of a mom cause he's so deceitful. Who knows whats going on in his home life, but just from how casual and at ease Connor is with Mia and her family, I can decipher that this isn't the first time he's messed around. He's your typical hot guy who has a problem with being faithful. Course, he's got to slum in the projects to get a woman so easily and who wont ask questions like Mia's mom does. He's an intelligent enough fella to "get" that this family is sorely lacking in the man/father department and they lap up the attention he offers them. I'm sure that feels good to him. I think it even feels good to him to reach out to Mia as sort of a friend/mentor...however, his true nature is he's a guy looking for a good time and a breather from his home life, so throughout the film I felt that I was just waiting for him to be inappropriate with Mia. The scene where he carries her into her bedroom--and the director turns up the audio so we can hear their breathing is ominous. I think what's hard for people and even me, is that their relationship is ultimately consensual. Mia likes his attention, and he likes giving it. Shes mature for her years because of the life shes lived, but ultimately because of her age and innocence has no understanding that their relationship is an impossibility.Nevertheless, its fair to say that they are both attracted to each other. The thing is: Mia is 15, and Connor is a married man in his 30s..under no circumstances should connor have let it go that far. It is and was his responsiblity to resist as the adult. and, sadly he doesnt think twice until he actually does the deed, and then abandons. So much for being her friend/mentor. He's a jerk that victimizes her and her mom, and left with no contact info. Funny and ironic how he reacts to his only family being victimized! I don't think mia taking his child was right, but as far as making him think a little about what he did...he got what he deserved. Im just glad the little girl was okay in the end.
I still don't think he was after Mia. Yes he was inappropriate (though walking around shirtless isn't such a big deal) and flawed, obviously. He can flirt and be attracted to Mia without having a plan to have sex with her. Tensions were building up and the moment presented itself when they were alone and he had been drinking. As soon as the sex was finished I think he genuinely thought WTF have I done and regretted it, as he ran away the next morning.
share
"it was pretty obvious he wasn't seeing her sexually up until one point."
I disagree. His first remark to her was sexual. He told her he enjoyed her dancing. It wasn't an innocent compliment. Notice the little *beep* told her to dance for him just before he statutorily raped her?
I'm a bit concerned that people are still playing down his role in the manipulation. Sexual predators are two-faced and they *always* seek to make their contact with their victims appear "innocent"...
How long did it take him to take off a 15 yr old's pants once the mother's back was turned and he had the opportunity?
How long did it take him to spank a 15 yr old repeatedly once the mother's back was turned and he had the opportunity?
How long did it take him to rape a 15 yr old once the mother's back was turned and he had the opportunity?
Classic sex offeneder behavior - honing in on a lonely individual with a lot of problems, spending months carefully building up the so-called friendship to creat dependency, then a sneaky attack, and the offender disappears.
Please stop making excuses for him.
Please stop telling me what my opinion should be. I don't necessarily agree with you, deal with it. Would be interested to hear what the directors intention for the character was.
share
"Please stop telling me what my opinion should be."
I don't think I did. I asked people to stop making excuses for his sex offending.
[deleted]
@Ariadne-87, I get your points, but I can't help but wonder if he was just gradually seducing Mia from jump start. Because after he takes off her sweat pants and covers her up and leaves her room, the next morning she comes down to the kitchen in her underwear. It was like she was making her own statement to him. It was like she's saying you took off my pants without my consent, but now I'll freely show you my underwear by choice.
Because the truth is even if we undress our own children if they fall asleep before putting on their pajamas/sleep wear, there comes a point when we stop doing that. It is just not appropriate to undress a teenager--even if she was his own daughter it wouldn't be right. And it just so happens she's not his daughter. He's still very much a stranger.
And I suspect he wanted to see her as more than a teenager from the start because when she catches him watching her dance in the kitchen he tells her not to stop because he's enjoying it. Mia was not dancing classical ballet style, but she was doing "sexy" video girl hip movements. So Connor enjoying her dancing in that way suggests that he saw her sexually from early on.
Evan and Scottie--great posts! I do stand by my earlier statement that "he's not a pedophile"..but yes he is still guilty of a crime. Morally, ethically, and criminally. The reason I dont see him as a pedophile is because Mia's age by many standards throughout history would have been perfectly acceptable to bed for a man like Connor. Even now, many states have the age of consent being 16. however, this is 2012 and the mindset we have in the here and now--is that 15 is way too young for a man in his 30s to be messing around with and Connor knows the difference between right and wrong and he does wrong. And, as scottie pointed out--he first had to "befriend" her..which wasnt easy cause its made clear that Mia is a loner--Connor senses the whole familys desperation for something more and better--which is why they all are such easy targets for his natural charms. We can go around and around about his shirtless scenes--but galluslass it is very difficult to overlook the appropriateness of spraying himself with cologne and then intimately reaching in to have her smell him--and right after that--spanking her. That for me--theres no good guy mentality there and theres really no justification for the behavior other than to toy with Mias obvious attraction for him. Bizarre and creepy!
[deleted]
Evan, you are right that people dont see Connor clearly because he is good looking. The women in the audience are attracted to him, and so is Mia. Mia is awake in that scene. And, do you think she would let her mom's balding, fat, hairy sweaty boyfriend take her pants off? Mia is a fighter and is not shy from speaking her mind. She would kick a man she didn't like away from her. I think what makes this film complex--even more so--is that Mia allows and actually longs for Connor's seduction and attentions. She is attracted to him, despite him being her mothers boyfriend. Granted, he is a philanderer and a liar. He has no intention of lingering in her mothers life other than to crash for a few weeks--so Mia is a another woman to seduce in the meantime. I don't think for a moment that Connor makes a habit out of sleeping with teenagers. But, I do think he is a skilled womanizer--and he uses his easy charms and good looks and false kindness to woo Mia. She interested him from the moment he sees her, and I think after seeing the film twice, I do think he likes her more than his average conquests, but still even if she were of age, theirs is an impossible relationship and one Mia would realize she wouldn't want cause she would be just a number. I find it interesting, what Mia was thinking when she searches for Connor--did she really think after sleeping with him--even if he had stayed--that her mother wouldn't have found out? that she wouldn't be in trouble with her mother? She is so naive cause she thinks that Connor and her could have something after he sleeps with her. It shows that she willingly fell for him, and just how naive she is. I had a friend in highschool who dated a guy who was 32 when she was 17. She was a small time model for local businesses and she met him at a photo shoot, they dated even after highschool--into college. I never understood what he was thinking. I could see her attraction--he was hot and well off. But, she was a huge risk for him the first year they dated as a minor. She hid the relationship from her parents, and asked her girlfriends to keep quiet too. We did. We all emjoyed meeting them out at clubs where he would treat us all. IT was wrong, but we all enjoyed the what seemed to be glamorous and scandalous.
The age of consent in England is 16. For the most part that age in America is 18.
If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all
I think it started out innocently enough. I think he did develop an attraction to her, but I certainly don't think he was grooming her to have sex with him or anything. I think he tried to ignore it, or more likely successfully ignored it. Until he got pissed, because that is exactly the type of drug alcohol is. What he did is still deplorable, but not premeditated.
I still believe that peace and plenty and happiness can be worked out some way. I am a fool.
I agree with you. I don't think he had some master plan, I don't think it was his MO to seek out chavy mothers with 15 year old daughters to screw over both figuratively and literally. I do think he was attracted to her and he stupidly acted on it.
If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all
I would say he didn't plan the specific seduction of Mia, but he was overly familiar with her from the beginning. Seemed a little too touchy-feely when she cut her ankle in the river, and afterward when he was checking the bandage. He liked watching her dance. He put her across his lap to paddle her -- now that was disusting. If a grown man did that to my 15 year old daughter, I'd cut off his d***.
sharefirst of all, AMAZING film. andrea arnold is an outstanding director! so beautifully and heartbreakingly shot.
imo, i think he planned it from the start. he probably is a genuinely nice guy, but that doesn't mean he's decent. he's encouraging, supportive, kind, but he def had an agenda. the evidence being that immediately after he slept with a 15 yr old girl, he was outta there. back to his family.
its VERY interesting how she dealt with the lie. she obviously knows the wrong he did, but when she confronts him, she lets him charm her and take her to the station, and the only way she could express how terribly she was feeling was to temporarily kidnap his daughter, and try to hurt him in any way she could.
i think in general, this film is a metaphor to alot of human relationships. one person taking advantage of another. guys all have it in them to be complete *beep* and liars to get what they want. especially seemingly nice guys. i think that's why this film really struck a chord with me, because people can relate in any situation or class in society.
going back to the story, ultimately, she is a decent person and doesn't do anything too terrible to the little girl, and he chases her down to hurt her again. from there, she could have chose to continue the cycle of revenge and hurt, as she could have really tried to destroy his life by confronting his wife, but in wisdom beyond her years, she chooses to end the suffering and move on, to escape her "fish tank".
the audition turns out to be a dirty strip club, and the only other beautiful thing in her life, the horse, is destroyed and that's when she breaks down. but the story leaves her and the audience with still a glimmer of hope, that her life with the nice boy with the volvo will open up the possibilities in her life for something better.
"imo, i think he planned it from the start. he probably is a genuinely nice guy, but that doesn't mean he's decent. he's encouraging, supportive, kind, but he def had an agenda. the evidence being that immediately after he slept with a 15 yr old girl, he was outta there. back to his family."
^ Magatsu, that's the distinction in a nutshell... he may be "nice", but he's also devious, scheming and shallow. I think all sexual predators plan things for a long time in order to finagle their way into their victims' trusts.
I don't think he stayed all along specifically to get with Mia, but I think he was definitely looking out for the opportunity if it arose. He was inappropriate from the beginning:
* Greets her for the first time shirtless, tells her he enjoys her dancing
* REMOVES HER F--KING PANTS! This is NOT ok and disturbing!
* Changes in front of her and leans in for her to smell his cologne
* Spanks her!?!?!?!?!
* Shows jealousy when talking about her 'boyfriend'
* Gives her a piggyback when she can clearly walk
* Annnnnnnnnd finally watches her dance and f--ks her!
Dude was a grade A sleaze and creeper. People are ignorant to this fact because he was charming and good looking (Mmmmmmmmm Michael Fassbender!), but take these factors away and NO ONE would be defending this dude.
[deleted]
The guy was not a good guy but I watched an interview and when discussing it, they said that Connor did not plan to do what he did it was an escalation. Plus I realize that Mia is underage and that is never OK and that is undefendable but she was wanting to have sex with him so it is not technically rape except she was underage and she wasn't ready emotionally for it.
"The guy was not a good guy but I watched an interview and when discussing it, they said that Connor did not plan to do what he did it was an escalation."
It was his escalation, from start to finish.
I'm just saying he didn't plan to do what he did, it was a decision in the moment when drunk. Plus she had her own intentions too not that it makes it right because she is underage and he was an adult.
share
"I'm just saying he didn't plan to do what he did, it was a decision in the moment when drunk."
We don't know that.
You know the saying "Overnight success takes 15 years' hard work"? I would say this supposed "Decision in the moment to commit statutory rape" in fact took several weeks' deliberate grooming of an underage girl, to set the background for its "spontaneous" occurence. Namely:
1) Checking she had no reliable authority figure overseeing her
2)Removing her pants
3) Confusing her by mixing by mixing "punishment" of her with his sexual touching of her when he spanked her
4)Toying with her emotionally by giving her affection and then abruptly withdrawing it (reference the spiteful "you need a social worker to sort you out" remark)
5) Making inappropriate remarks to her about enjoying watching her gyrate, then giving her a camera and suggesting she film herself
All these things he consciously set out to do. I dare say he planned his actions as much as most rapists do.
I think he harbored attraction for Mia..and kept it hidden...until a lapse
of judgement under the effects of alcohol. He didnt plan on the mother bein
drunk and passed out..and mia just happens to come downstairs.
If he planned on it. it would have occured outside the home more than likely...away from the mother..but that doesnt make it rite either way tho
I am not saying it is right at all. I was just saying that in an interview Michael Fassbender was asked a question similar to this and he said the character didnt plan to do what he did.
Plus if he planned it, he wouldn't have handled it as badly as he did and put himself in so much risk. Also his reaction of being freaked out afterwards doesn't make sense if he planned it. I'm not trying to start anything I'm just sharing my opinion and what I have watched.
Yeah exactly. i heard the interview on the dvd..I dont think it was a plan. Spontaneous more like it
shareNice list shayneferry! I noticed that he was seeing her sexually from the start too, with that whole I'm enjoyng your dancing so don't stop now that you realize I've been watching you this whole time. Those dance moves were not ballet, but straight up I'm-trying-to-be-sexy dance moves.
But don't forget to add:
>During sex with her mother looks at Mia twice and even thrusts more forcefully with mother to show off his bedroom skills for Mia.
>When dangling the money over Mia's head at his job, when she says she's not a child he says he knows while placing the money on her chest as though she's a stripper and he's stuffing her bra with singles. (I felt bad for her teenage guy friend seeing all that flirting,cause he might like her as more than a let's-just-hangout friend.
>Encouraging her to try out for that dance stuff, when he's probably seen those flyers around enough times to know that those are stripper auditions. I mean if he was really trying to genuinely father/mentor her he would not suggest she go for it. He would instead tell her what it really was about--instead of leaving her thinking she's trying out for UK's So You Think You Can Dance type of show.
I definately agree with you. In my opinion he had a "masterplan". Just rewatch the first encounter of him and Mia in the citchen.
Why is there a plan?
Connor proably met Mia's mom somewhere in a pub, club or something like that. They obviously didn't know each other before (no work-relation, no connections - they live completely different lifes). So he met her somewhere and they talked (I'm pretty sure they did before having sex). He lied about his life (kid, wife), but Mia's mom had to be honest. She wanted him, he seemed like a nice guy, probably not the type of men, she got before. they ended up at HER apartment. She couldn't lie about her family-situation. I'm sure, that she told him about her two daughters and how tough life is (small apartment, kids at this age,...). She must have felt very lucky getting to know a guy like him, being funny, smart, friendly and good-looking. If he just wanted to *beep* Mia's mom he could have done it somewhere else (Motel, Hotel). I think he just wanted Mia's (15 yr.old) body. That's all he wanted, from the beginning. How creepy was the first shirtless scene. He must have known about Mia, because why on earth would you sneak into the citchen, shirtless (but with jeans on) after *beep* a woman, living in a small apartment. You would be wearing boxers only, if at all. Why dress up?! so he knew about the two girls. and wow he even stops at the citchendoor, before going in, because he heard the music. He must have known, that Mia or his sister is up. So think about what he did?! and what you would have done? instead of going in (even shirtless, which would not be a big deal) and explaining himself for being around, he WATCHED her dancing (for a few seconds) and made her feel save/comfortable (told her exactly what she wanted to hear: that she had a big mouth, charming personality (though that was ironically) from the very first beginning of her "relationship". he made her compliments (about her dance moves, later on about her looks, her courage, etc.). He took advantage of a little experienced, naive (dancing career, lack of other prospects), obviously charmed and shy (yes she is, rewatch that first encounter - she didn't know what to say! she tried to be supercool, instead of saying:"what the *beep*, why would you enjoy my dancing, you are *beep* my mom!")
that makes him a man, who plans stuff like that, who is trained talking 15yr old girls over, he knew exactly what to say, in order to impress her/make her feel comfortable!... Later on he got what he wanted (i doubt, that he was drunk!) and left immediately! There was a PLAN, i'm 100% sure about that. Great movie, by the way!
I don't think he had a "masterplan". I think he was very attracted to Mia, and she was attracted to him. I think he had more of an understanding of how wrong it was and therefore, more of the blame should be placed at his door for what happened. I don't think he was a sexual predator. I don't think he groomed her. I think he was a promiscuous layabout who let his cock lead him.
That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, bingo!
thankyou so much for this response. It helped me understand the movie better out of all the rest of the comments:) at magatsu
share
Hmm, I disagree with Mr Fassbender's interpretation of this character, which IMO employs the fallacy of excluded middle. You seem, between plannning the statutory rape down to the last detail and having an entirely spontaneous sexual experience lies a third possibility: that Connor deliberately chose to sexualise a relationship with an already vulnerable 15 yr old child (spanking, undressing, and making it clear he was gaining sexual enjoyment from watching her gyrate).
I'm sure he didn't wake up that morning thinking he would have sex with Mia: apart from anything else he didn't know he'd have the opportunity to be alone in the house with her. That doesn't change the fact that he consciously chose to groom her for sex, in case the opportunity came up.
[deleted]
You see: between plannning the statutory rape down to the last detail and having an entirely spontaneous sexual experience lies a third possibility: that Connor deliberately chose to sexualise a relationship with an already vulnerable 15 yr old child (spanking, undressing, and making it clear he was gaining sexual enjoyment from watching her gyrate).
I'm sure he didn't wake up that morning thinking he would have sex with Mia: apart from anything else he didn't know he'd have the opportunity to be alone in the house with her. That doesn't change the fact that he consciously chose to groom her for sex, in case the opportunity came up.