MovieChat Forums > The Debt (2011) Discussion > Question regarding ending

Question regarding ending


How does Rachel realize the patient in room 414 is not really Dr. Vogel?

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He doesn't recognize her because her scar, which he would have, since he gave it to her to get away. And, if it was the Surgeon he would have reacted. Plus, he didn't look like that same monster at all. And, he rambled on in a way that would not have jibed at all.

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Rachel was about to inject the patient's IV with the poison and something caused her to pull back when she realized it was not Vogel. I wasn't sure what it was that caused her to realize it was not him just as she was about to inject the IV.

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No,the"fake" Vogel did not see Rachel,she saw his face from the side and saw it was not him.At 90 or so,the surgeon could´ve gotten slightly senile and forgotten about Rachel.She didn´t know the real surgeon was somewhat fit.

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I don't know, he never looked directly at her, and she only saw him from the back and side.

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Because she saw him from two feet away. (even if it was just a side profile it didnt look anything like the monster. Extremely obvious)

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She would remember his face even after he had reached 90 years of age. Once she got even a cursory look at the man in 414, she knew it wasn't him. And yes, as someone else pointed out, he didn't recognize her.

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I pretty much figured it was just his appearance, that's how I knew it wasn't him. Even after the passage of 32 years, certain physical traits will remain constant.

There's no "I" in team, but there is an "m" and an "e."

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I was able to see that the patient was much smaller than Vogel. Also, I'm sure she could recognize that it was not voice.

They don't deserve candy!

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Thank you. Was just going to reply the same thing. How did she know? How did EVERYONE in the audience know.. um, we saw it wasn't him.

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Honestly, I wasn't totally convinced she knew one way or the other. She was poised to inject the hypodermic needle without even looking at him. I think she decided NOT to do it, and then told Stephan on the phone that it wasn't him. She then wrote out her "confession," counting on the journalist to ascertain the truth.

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Rachel decided not to inject the needle before the patient turned around so she could see his face (and before he spoke). It was not clear to me whether she pulled back from making the injection because she could tell the patient was not Voegel just by looking at him from behind or whether she still believeed it was him at that point and just decided not to go through with killing him (because of what David told her about David wanting to notify authorities if David ever found Voegel).

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Right! And that decision gave her, so to speak, the moral high ground.

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Introducing the possibility of ambiguity is interesting.

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I do agree that she was deliberating injecting his IV, and then she did realize it was not the Surgeon. However, it was all foreshadowed when she was entering the doors to access the stairs to 414, she was being observed from the floor above and you later figured out the Surgeon saw her, recognized her, and was arming himself. I thought back on that and at the time thought is someone watching her? And, is it the Surgeon. Then the double twist. All I know is I was left wondering if she survived...

Thoughts?

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Agreed. I don't think she knew either way. I think the battle was internal, to tell the truth or not. She thought it was time to tell the truth, so whether it was him or not, she left the letter. Then is just so happen to be that the real Doctor was at the hospital as well.

This brings me to my own question. Did the real Doctor tell the other patients these stories to lure his kidnappers?

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I don't think so.

He was very old and alone, no one to talk to, and he couldn't risk bragging to a captive audience.

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Vogel had told the man in 414. When Rachel caught up with the real Vogel he said he wouldn't tell any more stories to the guy in 414.

It's my RIGHT to offend you!!!

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But in that case, why did she go after the real Vogel when she got a glimpse of him and chased him up the staircase. She had already written the confession, she could have walked away.

Jan 25, 2011 the day it all started. Walk like an Egyptian or just protest like one!

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She just couldn't kill him because she thought him being so sick is a way of paying back his sins. Also she found herself too weak, emotionally, to kill an old man.

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"too weak, emotionally"?

I could have sworn she DID kill him. She trailed him throughout the hospital and when he attacked her, she SPOILERS had the syringe at the ready. I mean, she didn't put it away after deciding not to kill the first guy.

Incidentally, once we got a look at the first guy's nose, there was no doubt it wasn't the surgeon. He had a fine, straight nose, while the surgeon had a big nose with a bump in it. I think the filmmakers deliberately chose someone who would be dramatically different looking.

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Exactly my thought because by the end the impressiopn is given that the man was really "The Surgeon" and he attacks her AND THEY KILL each other.

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On the OP's question regarding the man in the room, I agree that what exactly happened was ambiguous. In this, perhaps as not in other aspects of the film, heh, we see a mix of factors playing out very quickly. As happens now and then in real life, interestingly enough.

The film makes clear that despite her journeying all that distance, Rachel was not sure what she was going to do when she got there. On one hand she wanted to get there before the reporter, and her taking out the injection indicates she was at least preparing to go ahead and kill the man. But it ALSO is quite clear that she was considering David's argument of coming clean, and telling the truth.

I think what happened is her actually being in the room was something that she thought would indicate to her what she should do, and the brief sight of the man, even from a three quarter side rear view, was not enough to give her the impetus to kill him. My own feeling at the moment was doubt it was Vogel. Then when he talked she heard none of Vogel in what what was said. She at that point, having failed to find in her reaction to his presence, and the doubt it was him, enough motivation to kill him, instead pursued the course David suggested, and wrote out the note to the reporter. (I think a small factor was also that Rachel took some satisfaction in calling Stefan and telling him he was wrong, it was not Vogel, but that was a small factor.)

Then, when she sees Vogel, however briefly she nonetheless recognizes him instantly, thirty two years later beside the point, it his him, AND he tries to run away.

At that point Rachel's instinct to track him kicks in, but it's more than that. She remembers his saying that Jews don't know how to kill, remembers Vogel killing many, his taunts come back to her, and on top of that her desire not to let him escape, again, kick in as well.

At a minimum she must chase him, and then encounters him. Even then we are not sure what she will do. She has already left the note in room 414. The truth will come out. What now?

In the back and forth of her now elderly and in some respects both pathetic and still deadly struggle, we realize ambiguity is still present, but Rachel is reacting as much as acting. Vogel is trying to kill her! Is she going to be the victim, like all those Vogel referred to back in the Holocaust?

No.

In total, a rather interesting ending. Is it too much in service of being cathartic to the audience? Perhaps - we get to have Rachel all of telling the truth, risking victimhood (and in fact being injured, again, by Vogel), and nonetheless killing him, as he not only deserved, but also initiated himself in attacking her. Morality is well served, all in all.

But perhaps it is a bit too neat. Well, at least it tied up the loose ends, which is part of good filmmaking.

I suppose in fairness it is not implausible that Vogel over the course of many years might have let slip his story to one of the other patients, and that the patient could have done what he did. So that I don't criticize, either. It served the plot development quite well to have Vogel be glimpsed by Rachel as she left 414, but this is filmmaking, and however unlikely it is that it would have happened like that in real life, it is what happened in this film. I did not feel like it was too challenging to my suspension of disbelief.

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Well Kenny, i think you summed that up pretty damn well. One thing, why would he of bragged to the other patients about who he was? if even at the end he still appeared not wanting to be found? Surely it wouldn't be pure coincidence that the surgeon just happend to be in the same hospital!?

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There's another thing about the ending that makes it ambigous. We don't know if Rachel survived. If she died after the film ended, even if the journalist, or anyone else, made the connection and realised who she was, there would still be no evidence that Vogel was really the Surgeon of Birkenau. Even the syringe in Vogel's back doesn't prove anything, unless it was some special Mossad issue poison or something. Two of the agents would be dead and the third would never admit the truth - so the 'true' story wouldn't necessarily come out, as the remaining Mossad guy could just say that Rachel had become deluded or something.

I suppose the main point is that at the end, the 'Debt' (ie, the price of all the glory that Rachel had enjoyed) had finally been paid with Vogel's blood.

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Carharttboi,

I realize this is a late response, but I just saw the movie.

"One thing, why would he of bragged to the other patients about who he was? if even at the end he still appeared not wanting to be found?"

Even in his younger years, the surgeon can't have been playing with a full deck considering what he did during WWII. Perhaps now that he'd survived for so long, he wanted his story to be told and what better way to do it than to tell someone similar to his current age who likely has dementia? That way, his story will cause a stir, but he won't get punished since he's not the one telling the story. Just a thought.

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sir i feel he may had plastic surgey????

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