STOP ALREADY! - Going Postal (2010) Discussion

[–] PatHarkin 16 years ago

Well, off you go, then. Once you've learnt your trade as a film maker, sourced adequate funding, and convinced Terry that you're up to the job, I'm sure he'll let you have a go.

Until then - I think Vadim will have to fill in for you.

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[–] iSean 16 years ago

PatHarkin , ive just re-read my original post & nowhere did i suggest i could do a better job. & i dont claim i would.

however, i do stand by mr opinion that these adaptations are a gross misinterpretation of the books. im sure Vadim is a fine director, but whoever was responcible for turning these books - intended for adults - into a tv show for children, thereby removing all subtext, philospphy and social commentary so apparent in the books, should not be involved with any future adaptations.

I'll be steering clear of any further discworld miniseries & waiting until someone comes along who can do it justice.

__________________________________
"The truth is, I'm a bad person."

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[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] iSean 16 years ago

Indeed i do realise that Pratchet was involved. I have to wonder how deep his involvement was though. i vaguely remember a quote from pratchett saying he didnt want to see the discworld adapted to the screen because no one would be able to get it right. ill try & find that quote.

__________________________________
"The truth is, I'm a bad person."

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[–] socalledboothy 16 years ago

That quote was probably from a while ago (I remember reading it as well), and people can and do change their minds when it comes to certain things. Now, if you read some articles about the movies, Terry is extremely pleased with both movie results. He obviously seems to think that Vadim is doing a fantastic job with his books, and as the person who WROTE the books and helped out with the writing of the script, I'd imagine that's pretty much all that matters. Like someone earlier said, if Pratchett is pleased with the movies, then we should be happy that he's pleased with them.

Honestly, I don't really think that they've ruined the books or anything. Nor do I think they've been "catering to children" with these movies in the slightest. I can see how children would enjoy them, but I don't think that's a problem. I'm 22 years old and love the Hogfather movie (haven't had a chance to see Colour of Magic yet as I'm in the US and only just found out about it today). My parents saw the movie too, and they loved it as well. So I don't think that it's excluding everyone but children as much as you seem to think.

I also don't necessarily see your point. Subtext is all well and good, but most people don't read books, including Terry's, for the subtext. I know I don't. I read books for entertainment value, and Terry's fit that for me. His books are hilarious and well-written, and that's what matters to me. The subtext, to me, in general, is not really all that important to someone's overall reading of the book. I enjoy his books just fine and barely pay attention to any subtext.

Basically, what I'm seeing is an overreacting fan who's acting like a child because the movies didn't look like how he saw it in his head, and is throwing a temper tantrum because of it. Everyone has a different vision and viewing of the books, and this is Vadim's (and, to some extent, Pratchett's) vision. Get over it. Movies based on books will never be exactly how you want them, and things will have to be changed. Also, take a look at antalos' post- Pratchett not only okay'd the changes to the script, but he even made some of them! So blame him rather than Vadim, if you have to blame anyone.

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[–] cvetkovic_josip 15 years ago

Seconded. Overreacting fan who's acting like a child.
Mr. Pratchett is very pleased by how the show looks, which means its only you and other whiny kids who think books are being ruined.
And btw, if you think books are written for adults, you obviously never talked to mr. Pratchett, or read any interviews with him. (try looking him up on worldcon, he is usually there, he used to be easy to find, he wore "I'm Terry Pratchett buy me a beer" shirt)
He always tried to write books that are for all ages, where there will be enough gags for kids to laugh, and enough depth so grown ups will enjoy.
Which, in my opinion, this tv specials do as well.

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[–] pzsolnay-1 14 years ago

If Terry Pratchett didn't like the way Hogfather was going, something tells me he wouldn't have allowed himself to have a cameo appearance in the movie. He's the shopkeeper at the end...

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[–] jevans87 14 years ago

OK, while this is a bit of an overreaction and the OP always has the option of just not watching these films, the responses are ridiculous.

The fact that Terry Pratchett likes the adaptation makes no difference whatsoever to whether a fan is allowed to like it; by that logic it's impossible to dislike a Discworld book either, because Terry wrote it and (presumably) was happy with it, therefore it must be good. And as for "you coudn't do better" - come on. I doubt you can fly a plane either, does that mean you're not entitled to complain if it crashes?

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[–] Henkwich_88 14 years ago

Fair points. I did like the movie however, both this and Hogfather (yet to see Colour of Magic). Worth mentioning is that I've only read each book once and it was a while ago relative to when the movies were released. This along with the fact that I'm not a hardcore Pratchett fan probably made me overlook any inconsistencies the movies had compared to the books. Seeing this really made me wanna get into the Discworld universe again though.

Back on topic:

I'm not sure I can remember a book-to-movie/tv-series adaption where the readers were unanimously positive to how the adaption turned out.

To me, and it seems quite a few other fans it was enjoyable. Sad to hear that some didn't but well.. can't please everyone.

--

Self-proclaimed "Computer-SciFi-Fantasy-UselessFacts"-Nerd.

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[–] Socraticjester 14 years ago

That analogy would only be valid in a situation where a couple of people are complaining that the plane crashed while everyone else on the same flight reached their destination perfectly fine.

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[–] slmc17 16 years ago

Here, here! I very much agree.

I really enjoyed the two adaptations done so far (even though, yes, the picture in my head and the one that ended up on screen were different) and I am very much looking forward to the new one. I hope it lives up to expectation, baring that I hope it sticks with the integrity of the story and I'll look out for the writers cameo!

Bring on more Discworld based movies!

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[–] ragstorichesfan 16 years ago

I couldnt help but laugh at your particulare comment and I quote
"turning books aimed squarely at adults into tv shows for children?" I work in a library and I have to say most of the Pratchett series are borrowed by early teens. You are wrong about that. I also would never have read the books had it not been for the wonderful film Hogfather. True the books are better, but a movie should never over shadow its origin, all it should do is make the watcher go out,find,and read the books.I am actualy impressed at how close to the book they stayed, after viewing such horrible adaptions of Mary Poppins, Wizard Of Oz, and The Rescuers, its nice to see at least some shreads of Terry pratchetts work still there untouched.These movies all started as really marvelous books and sadly are now viewed as classics. Since I viewed Hogfather I have boughten 19 books of the Discworld series and have read 12 so far. They are amazing. I am wholeheartedly looking forward to this next adaption. I hope they make them all.

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[–] iSean 16 years ago

I also work in a library, and have done so for several years. The Discworld series (not including the books written specifically for young adults & children) are, from my observations, borrowed mainly by people in the age group of 18-30.

also, you have to ask yourself would a child / young adult truely UNDERSTAND the subtext of the novels? is Equal Rites simply witches & wizards, or is it a reflection of gender equality in our society?

If Discworld weer aimed at kids & young adults, would the Science of Discworld ever have been written?

__________________________________
"The truth is, I'm a bad person."

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[–] ragstorichesfan 16 years ago

I think young adults grasp the concept better than you think. Either way they seem to read them, at least here in Vermont. Maybe as a Libriarian you should promote them to your younger group and see if it inspires interest. Terry Pratchett Commented on how surprised he was that so many kids showed up to his lectures, in his interview that is available as a bonus on the dvd release of Soul Music.You are wrong, Discworld is not just for adults. Thats plain fact.

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[–] suz-mal 15 years ago

Nah you're wrong. Discworld is definitely for adults. Children might read them and enjoy them but there isn't a chance that they fully understand them. When I was a kid I started reading Stephen King and I enjoyed the *beep* out of them. But when I was older I gave those books another read and absorbed them completely different.

Anyway, I think the adaptions are entertaining (more so Colour of Magic, hogfather didnt really make much sense without a knowledge of the book) but they still lose alot of the humor present in the novels, mainly because all the humor in the novels is "adult" humor.

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[–] Beuller 14 years ago

Terry always says in writing for children, don't patronise them as they're a lot brighter than you think!

I, like most of my friends, first read Pratchett as a school boy and have grown up with his books. 23 years later, the magic has never left me.

Pratchett books to me are accessible to anyone - I've read the Bromeliad books, Johnny Maxwell Books, Tiffany Aching etc - all supposedly written for a younger audience and I cant say my enjoyment of them is diminished in any way -or that they are simplified Pratchett novels, far from it, Tiffany Aching in particular is one of my favourites.

I dont think the TV adaptations have been made directly for children either. They are for family viewing - hence the time of airing and so they should be. In some ways it worked in reverse as Going Postal never struck me as a frightening book in any way, even the Banshee was done in a fairly comical manner. Yet, the TV series presented him in a much darker way and add to that the ghostly spririt of the undelivered letters and the somewhat haunting flashbacks and you have something much more adult in nature that did give my 8 yr old a few shaky cushion moments (but no more than Harry Potter did!).

I think the OP is upset about their view of the books being messed with but theres no need to be so precious about it. More Pratchett can only be a good thing so I for one really hope they dont STOP adapting his work.

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[–] hedgehog_lok 14 years ago

I too hated this adaption, it was extremly cheesy, too me it felt nothing like Going Postal. But thats what you get trying to cram a whole book into 3 hours of motion picture :)

Hogfather i liked though, even saw it twice :)

Oh and the animated ones frikkin excellent! I remember VHSing those back in the day, ah good times ^^

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[–] skeepe 16 years ago

Does it matter whether they understand the subtext or not? Surely it's enough that the kids and young adults enjoy them? Later on in life, when they re-read them (and they will... I dare you to never, ever re-read a Discworld book), they will understand then that they are not merely entertaining, but extremely clever as well.

I also don't think you give young adults enough credit - a lot are more clued in than I suspect you realise.

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[–] iSean 16 years ago

Young Adults may be a bit more on-the-ball, but thats not totally the point, as the screen adaptations are catering for children. so not many teenager would even watch the tele-movies because the style & content is marketed to an audience ten years younger than they are. & having siblings in the young adult age bracket, i have observed that nothing is more 'uncool' than watching kids shows...
__________________________________
"The truth is, I'm a bad person."

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[–] ragstorichesfan 16 years ago

Anyone who woudln't read a book because it's "not cool" dosn't deserve to read them in the first place. If the world thought the way you did, Harry Potter wouldnt have stood a chance. It's marketeed at kids, but all ages read them.I don't think Terry Pratchett meant his books for just the In-Crowd. In the end, Discworld is meant for anyone with an open mind and fantatic imagination.For someone so knowledgable as you ISEAN, you have alot to learn. I think you will find that most of the people who post on here disagree with you, and this seems to bother you a greta deal. Instead of grasping at straws here , why not go to some bashing site and have at it with your peers that actualy agree with you.

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[–] iSean 16 years ago

ragstorichesfan, you totally misunderstand me. I do not think reading is 'uncool' i am a librarian. i read alot. i have read the harry potter books. i love the discworld series. & theres so much other stuff that i think is brilliant & i agree with you on one thing, that if people dont read because they think its uncool, then theyre missing out big time.

you also seem to be right by saying that the people on this board dont agree with my opinion on the adaptations. That doesn't bother me at all. they are entitled to think whatever they want & argue their points as strongly as the next person.

also, i am not "grasping at straws". i am continuing to elaborate my points of view in responce to the people that have posted in this thread. thats generally how a conversation works.

oh & i also love your quote: "why not go to some bashing site and have at it with your peers that actualy agree with you."
I have to ask, am i being banished from this board by you, ragstorichesfan, just because i have an opinion that differs from yours & you dont like it?

i still stand by my original post : i dont like the adaptations. they dont feel like the books, & i wont be watching them until someone can do it properly.

__________________________________
"The truth is, I'm a bad person."

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[–] suz-mal 14 years ago

RAGSTORICHEFAN -

- If the world thought the way you did, Harry Potter wouldnt have stood a chance. It's marketeed at kids, but all ages read them.I don't think Terry Pratchett meant his books for just the In-Crowd. In the end, Discworld is meant for anyone with an open mind and fantatic imagination -

Exactly, which is why the movies should be made for anyone with an open mind and fantastic imagination, and not for kids.

And don't get me wrong, I don't think they can only be enjoyed by children, but with so much corn and child humor it is hard, and it is clear that they are aimed at a younger audience.

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[–] suz-mal 14 years ago

SKEEPE-
I wasn't saying kids shouldn't read Discworld. When I was a kid I read Discworld. I'm just saying that it's written for adults, and subsequently the films should be made for adults.

~ I also don't think you give young adults enough credit - a lot are more clued in than I suspect you realise. ~

we weren't talking about Young Adults, we were talking about Children.

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[–] rubenrulf 16 years ago

iSean, my opinion is that movie made after books are hardly ever made for the fans. They are probably made to reach a broader public.

I think we all agree that a book is always better then the movie (except for LOTR, i think). So i suggest you keep reading what you love and let filmmakers do their thing. Making a movie after a book is probably the hardest thing there is to do anyway.

Everybody who liked the books wont stop reading them after the movie and maybe some bold person will think "what the heck" and read a book for a change...

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[–] poin-dexter 16 years ago

Eh, I'm 17 and I've been reading them for about 5 years. Don't assume kids need to understand the subtext, philosophy and social commentary of the Discworld books, because that's not all there is to Discworld. At the end of the day, they're comedy books with great plot lines and characters, and therefore they can be appreciated by everyone, even if small kids don't get ALL the jokes.

Actually, my sister used the 'you're too young to understand them, what're you reading those for' to me when I was about 12, and it's pretty damn patronising.

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[–] ennairea 15 years ago

Thats not the point. Getting kids to read the books IS! The books are accessible to all ages, my 9 year old little sister reads them, and so does my 50 year old parents. Just because you didn't understand all the subtext when you read them when you where young doesn't mean that you won't when you go back and read them when your older.
I first read Lord of the Rings when I was 12, I will admit to not getting a whole lot of the subtext then but BECAUSE I loved the books when I was young I went back when I was older and saw whole new layers in the books and that made me love them all the more.
WHY should they not make movies geared towards kids (and I don't agree that they were) it will get them started on great series that they can enjoy even more when they get older, and it will get their parents involved since its well made.
I missed all the little asides and footnotes as well as some of the subtext, but the other thing you have to understand are budget and time concerns only so much can go in. As it was I think there was still a lot of subtext in the movies.

On a final note I think you are seriously underestimating children, they may not objectively see the corollary between the book Equal Rites but they are very good at spotting unfairness. They might not say it in big complicated words, but I'd bet you anything that they could tell you that girls should be allowed to be wizards, or firemen, or anything else. Yes, Equal Rites is reflection of gender equality in our society, but more importantly its enjoyable, sometimes for some people it really is JUST a cigar, sometimes it is just witches & wizards. And when your older, the cigar can be a phallic symbol if you want.

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[–] rentawitch-1 15 years ago

Have you thought Sean that perhaps it is the age of library users that may be the key here.
I post on three different Discworld message boards - mostly www.discworldstamps.com/forum and attend many fan events and the most notable thing about Terry's readers is there isn't an average (well in the purest sense.... )

There are fans from the smallest sentient beings probably 7 or 8 (reading themselves) through to 80+.

As for the films. Films are hardly ever going to live up to a book. Different media donchaknow. Terry seemed to have a great deal of input to the films. I was lucky enough to be on the set of the Colour of Magic as an extra on four different days and two different locations and I saw this happening!

As Pat said at the beginning of this thread. Noone is making you watch them. A lot of us saw them and truly appreciated what Vadim and the Mob and Terry and the whole production company achieved!

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[–] drifter_potc 15 years ago

"
also, you have to ask yourself would a child / young adult truely UNDERSTAND the subtext of the novels? is Equal Rites simply witches & wizards, or is it a reflection of gender equality in our society? " Excuse me. I only just turned sixteen, and I started reading the books when I was fourteen, and I never read anything in the Discworld novels that I didn't comprehend.

"What do monsters have nightmares about?"
"Me! Ha!"

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[–] suz-mal 14 years ago

You all seem to be missing the point. It doesn't matter if a kid understands it or doesn't. iSean posted because he was annoyed that it was aimed at kids, because for 'him', it made it less enjoyable.

Now we've got all these teenagers ripping into the first poster about subtext and all this other bullsh!t, when it's all completely off topic. Who cares about kids. F!ck em, they're not important, and neither is whether or not they understand the novels.

The post was about the film adaption leaving out a lot from the book so it could be viewed by a younger audience, consequently stopping the movies from ever being truly enjoyable. I've been saying I like them, but really they're subpar, even though David Jasons is rad.

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[–] SeijakuShin 15 years ago

I have always seen Discworld in the teenage-fiction section of both book stores and libraries, of course you could just say this is at the discretion of the venue in question.
Now, I remember when Terry visited my school many years ago, gave a talk and signed books for people why would he attend an event at a school if his books were not in part written for the younger generation? Of course (again) you could say this was the choice of his publisher and not his own.

Rather than whine about how kids and teenagers can't get the subtext of Prachett's novels I'd rather celebrate the fact that he can write a book that is enjoyed by the younger generation -and- has deeper meaning for the more mature of us (and you should be focussing on maturity, not age).
So the movies so far don't reflect the image of what you imagined the Discworld to be, they can't please everyone and you evidentily are one of those who they can't please, you think the books were aimed at an older age bracket and the movies for children? Well that's your opinion, many people don't agree with it but you are entitled to your opinion.

But that's all it is, an opinion, it is not the universal truth and it won't stop them making more Discwrold movies, if you don't like them then don't watch, whining will not change this.

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[–] roclawzi 16 years ago

Ok, I also love the discworld series, though I've only read up to Interesting Times in order and a scatter of others out of sequence, I think they did Colour of Magic justice just fine. And I expect I'll be happy enough in the comparison to hogfather when I read it, as well.

I am also a huge Robert Heinlein fan. He is my favorite author, with Terry Pratchett recently becoming my 2nd favorite in the last year as I started reading his work. But I'm a Heinlein fan, first.

And until you have a book of Pratchett's that is

raped

mutilated

scrambled

beaten

stabbed

shot

urinated on

defecated on

and all together kicked like a stray dog

like they did to Starship Troopers, I can't begin to find a comparison.

So what if Rincewind was made a much older man? Dizzy Flores was a guy, not Dina meyers with her top off.

So what if they skipped practically any use of trolls except the grandfather troll (where cohen got his diamond for his teeth)? Johnny Rico was Juan Rico, and the roughnecks were not meat puppets, they were massive mechanized soldiers.

I mean, seriously, movies can seriously rape the books they come from, and while there has been significant editing and trimming to pratchett's books for film, the flavor and the humor and the tone was preserved, and I enjoy watching them.

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[–] EdmundOG 16 years ago

Ah, but Starship Troopers was made in parody of Heinlein's gung-ho right-wing super-army attitudes. It wasn't just a case of lazy or misread adaptation, it was a case of deliberately changing it. So this would than be worse.

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[–] suz-mal 14 years ago

~~I mean, seriously, movies can seriously rape the books they come from, and while there has been significant editing and trimming to pratchett's books for film, the flavor and the humor and the tone was preserved, and I enjoy watching them.~~

I don't agree. The flavour and humour and tone wasn't preserved, and that's the problem. That's what they've been saying - it's been dumbed down for kids.

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[–] antalos 16 years ago

On Sky One's site for The Colour Of Magic, Terry Pratchett mentions that Vadim Jean had wanted it closer to the book but Terry told him to cut, add, & change things so you should blame Terry Pratchett for ruining it as well (or just blame Terry).

I remember reading somewhere (it might of been on Neil Gaiman's site) that the difference between Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman when it's come to faithful movies based on their books is that Neil sees it as a possibility at some stage & Terry sees it as never happening (was from quite a few years back now when this was posted), so if Terry thought they were insulting to both the source material & the fans of the books then Hogfather movie would never came about in the first place let alone The Colour Of Magic & Going Postal.

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] TheNagel 16 years ago

acually... i quite enjoyed the movies.
i especially enjoyed jeremy irons as the patrician.
my 11 year old son loves the books and the movies as well.
so the movies are a tad different. big deal.
find me a movie made from a book that isn't at least a tad different.
g'head. try. i'll wait.
.....................
....still waiting....
.....
you get the idea.

perhaps some of the bits were not exactly as i'd imagined, but i didn't make the movie, so of course is wasn't exactly as i'd imagined. Nor did i expect them to be. perhaps your idea of how people should have looked and sounded didn't match what the director envisioned. that certainly doesn't mean the movie was "ruined" in anyone's opinion except your own.
so. i'll keep watching, and so will my son, daughter and wife, while you can go... do something else. couldn't possibly care less what, but please don't try to suggest that your opinion is fact.

if ya don't like em, don't watch em. pretty simple concept, really.

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[–] thedeathofwillyloman 16 years ago

I find that the comedy and enjoyment I get from the books is mostly in the narration, so I have always thought it would be a difficult task to get an adaptation spot on.

I just see it as certain parts from the book I like on film, which at some times can be good and at others bad. It'll never be exactly how you expect, so what, at least it's there and it's making more people aware of the Disc.

Oh and don't say you won't watch it until someone can do a good job:
1. Come on, really, you think you'll be able to resist.
2. How will you know they haven't done a good job?

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[–] SouthofSideways 16 years ago

Well, off you go, then. Once you've learnt your trade as a film maker, sourced adequate funding, and convinced Terry that you're up to the job, I'm sure he'll let you have a go.

Funnily enough, I'm studying to be a film-maker, and I've made a short film that's been highly praised at short film festivals, and I'm due to make another. I always thought that should the opportunity present itself, I should adapt a Discworld novel and the one I wanted to do was 'Going Postal' - ah well.

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[–] PatHarkin 16 years ago

For a short, what about "The Sea and Little Fishes", or "Turntables of the Night"? (OK, not strictly Discworld, but it has a very Discworldy Death in it).

"Troll Bridge" has been done, but that's no reason not to have a crack at it, or how about "A Collegiate Casting Out"?

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[–] han-skat 16 years ago

Pfft. Pratchett write books both for adults and kids so you stop already. Pratchett ok'd both movies and if he is happy with it, so should we be. He even 'mucked about' as it said in the credits with em(rewrote, changed stuff, wrote new lines etc).

I found Hogfather quite nice and close to how I figured the characters, same with Colour of Magic. Rincewind been a student for a long time so it only stand to reason he is of the older persuasion. Twoflower I figured would be asian-looking, but other than that, he was as I imagined, naive, wide-eyed and oblivious to danger. The patrician was spot on though. Jeremy Irons is perfect for that role. He can play the quiet, menacing type quite easy.

Besides when you make a book into a movie you have to change and cut out stuff. Its impossible to make it a 100% true adaptation of the book. Even the Lord of the Rings trilogy, which where closer to the source material than any other movie based on some books, they rewrote and cut out stuff.

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[–] madwitch61 16 years ago

What specifically didn't you like? Any scenes moments, bits from the book shouldn't have been cut out? Any protrayals just felt wrong?

I loved the Hogfather, and felt that the spirit of the book and almost every scene and casting was almost perfect. (Except for Nobby, but anyone trying to portray the gene pools muckiest creation has a lot to live up to. It was a fantastic attempt, really.) I didn't like colour of magic nearly as much... I felt that colour of magic should have been longer, I would have really loved to see the temple of Bel-Shamerroth, I thought the actor who played rincewind should have been more in his early thirties, I feel like the water troll should have been in there, the ending was a little over sentimental, but the portrayals Cohen, Bethan, Twoflower, the patrician, and Herenha the Henna Haired Harridan more than made up for much of the shortcomings. Going Postal I'm hoping will be more like the Hogfather. It may just be up to the cast. And I wish the official cast would be announced. It's October, they should have some idea, right?

Although I wish they were making Wyrd Sisters next instead. Getting a lot of Shakespearian actor to play a heavily Shakespearean parody [Sort like Star Trek often does) would be lots of fun. Ooooh... Patrick Stewart as Olwyn Vitoller (TomJohn's dad) would be sooooo cool. But bringing Granny Weatherwax to life.... wow, I can't even imagine. She's more larger than life than Nobby.

"Roach Raid... Wasp & Hornet Raid... Rat Raid... HEY! Do you guys have Net Troll Raid?"

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[–] Devon_Rex 16 years ago

Wyrd Sisters would be a great one to do. If nothing else there is already an excellent stage play version so it is definitely filmable.

I think Stephanie Cole would be great as Granny Weatherwax.

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[–] ennairea 15 years ago

They did an animated version of wyrd sisters in.... 97?... around then anyway. it's up on youtube.

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