Those Seventies teams, while, as you said, played those 2 Super Bowls with the Steelers close, they still managed to lose both of them.
But neither was considered one of the best Cowboys teams of the decade; heck the 75 squad was a Cinderella team that was supposed to be rebuilding. The 71 and 77 teams were both better, and both annihilated their Super Bowl opponents, as did the 90s Cowboys, the closest game being when Dallas defeated the Steelers by 10 points (still double digits). I wouldn't bet against any of those Dallas teams beating the Steelers, much less the 89 49ers, in a magic/time machine enabled match up.
My view is that the Cowboys are underrated generally, especially the 70s teams. Non Cowboys fans forget how dominant they were in the Landry era, or are young and never knew. I agree that this is opinion, but you have to admit I do support my opinions with objective facts and stat based arguments.
The 1991 Eagles finished Number 1 across the board on D....and missed the playoffs.
Yeah, but the NFC East was a brutally strong division back then. For a 10 year stretch every Super Bowl was won by an NFC East team or the 49ers. That year it was the Redskins, with the Cowboys edging the Eagles out and going on to win the following year and three of the next four. The 1991 Eagles had a mediocre offense (ranked 25th in yards and 18th in points; only scored 17.8 points/game!), but could easily have won the Super Bowl in many Parity Era years with that monstrous defense.
For example, I am of the opinion that, while individual players are better, athletically, than they've ever been (due to training methods, supplements, etc), I think the game has suffered because of it, at least somewhat. I know the NFL is more popular than ever, but I think the actual competition was at its height in the Eighties. I know people who disagree with me, but how can I prove it?
I divide NFL history into the Great Team Era and the Parity Era, and believe that, while like you say there are plenty of great individuals, current team quality has suffered due to the salary cap and other rule changes. The demarcation is the mid 90s, and I don't think we've seen a truly great team since the Cowboys dynasty. If one factors athletic improvement into the equation then it seems to me the quality climax of the Great Team Era would be 90s. Regardless, it was fitting that at the end you had classic franchises like Dallas, Pittsburgh, San Francisco, and Green Bay duking it out in 1995, with the good guys ultimately winning it all.
PS-
I think a case cold be made for the '92 or '93 Cowboys moreso than the '71 or '77 Cowboys - they were incredibly fast on the D line, Huge and dominant on the O line, and ridiculously skilled on both sides of the ball, front to back.
True, but remember that the 77 Cowboys had a ridiculous line pass rush between DT Randy "The Manster" White having the breakout season of his first ballot HoF career, league sack leader/NFL Defensive Player of the Year DE Harvey Martin, and the physically dominant DE Too Tall. And of course nobody could run on them. Very fast and athletic. Same with the LBs. Thomas "Hollywood" Henderson was one the most athletic LBs of all time; so fast they had him returning
punts, which he was exceptional at. Super Bowl XII was possibly the hardest hitting one ever, and Doomsday was so dominant that White and Martin were named co-MVPs. The 70s defenses were generally better. I'd give the overall edge on offense to the 1992 club, but Roger Staubach and Tony Dorsett were two of the greatest of all time at their respective positions, and Drew Pearson belongs in the Hall of Fame.
As for the 71 Cowboys, picture starting two Hall of Famers at cornerback, Herb Adderley and Mel Renfro, the latter being in the middle of 10 Pro Browls and having earlier helped his Oregon track team set a world record in the 440 yard relay. Renfro was also an All American in the high hurdles and broad jump. Plus he was physical, making some of his Pro Bowls at safety. The safeties that year were no slouches either, the brutally hard hitting Cliff Harris redefining the position as a 6 time Pro Bowler and first team 1970s All Decade free safety (should be in the Hall of Fame). Most non Cowboys fans haven't even heard of Cornell Green, the other safety, but he was an athletic former basketball player who made 5 Pro Bowls. MLB Lee Roy Jordan was also a 5 time Pro Bowler, borderline Hall of Fame candidate, held the franchise career tackle record for decades, and still sits at third all time in career interceptions among NFL linebackers. OLB Chuck Howley, the first defensive player to be named Super Bowl MVP, made 6 Pro Bowls, was named first team All Pro 5 times, is in the exclusive 20/20 sack/interception club, and should have been in the Hall of Fame long ago. He could get in any year since he's the most qualified senior era candidate not already in. Then there's the line anchored by DE George Andrie (no slouch at 5 Pro Bowls) and DT Bob Lilly (11 Pro Bowls, 7 first team All Pro selections). Lilly is the DT for the NFL 75th Anniversary Team, is on two All Decade teams, and was ranked by the Sporting News in 1999 as one of the top 10 players in NFL history, the highest defensive lineman and third highest overall defensive player. Watch footage of his games if you get a chance. His agility, strength, toughness, and skill were incredible. He collapsed the offensive line on every play despite often being triple teamed. They called it "Doomsday" for a reason. They were talented, tough, quick, disciplined, hard hitting, and smart.
Now imagine an offense with two Hall of Fame wide receivers, the legendary Lance "Bambi" Alworth and "Bullet" Bob Hayes, the latter an Olympic gold medalist and still probably the fastest man to ever play significantly in the NFL. The HoF tight end, "Iron" Mike Ditka, is widely considered to be the greatest of all time at his position. Throwing the ball to these targets is HoF QB Roger Staubach, who retired with what at the time was the best career passer rating in NFL history. In 71 he posted a 104.8 rating for the season, which was insane for that era. For perspective the NFL average was 59.3. Oh and he rushed for 343 yards. The running back stable was stacked. Calvin Hill was a big back with speed who made first team All Pro as a rookie in 1969, would ultimately make 4 Pro Bowls through 1974, and was a
backup in 71. Duane Thomas was crazy, but helped FB Walt Garrison (a real cowboy, future Pro Bowler and one of the toughest men in NFL history) and Dan Reeves shatter the Super Bowl rushing record by combining to roll up 252 yards on the ground against the legitimately vaunted Miami "No Name" defense. I've been glossing over the offensive lines on this thread, but HoF tackle Rayfield Wright is considered to be one of the greatest pass blockers of all time. The powerful guard John Niland made 6 Pro Bowls. HoF tackle Forrest Gregg and 1960s All Decade tackle Ralph Neely were injured and out for the year (in 77 Wright was out with injury and Neely healthy), but most of the others also made Pro Bowls during their careers. I didn't even mention most of the All Decade selections.
This team redefined loaded, line and skill position. Plus they were coached by a football genius. The only reason they lost any games was the experimental QB shuffling early in the season. Once Staubach was named the starter they won out. It's little surprise that they only allowed a single touchdown in the entire playoffs, and became the only team to ever hold their Super Bowl opponent to no touchdowns. They held a great, power running Dolphins team stacked with its own many HoFers to a measly 80 yards rushing and 105 passing.
None of these Cowboys teams had weaknesses. They were loaded with depth across the board.
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PussyCrusher_Principal
11 years ago
You don't think you're opinion might be less than objective? I mean, I get that you're a Cowboys fan, and you love your team and all, but you're gushing about them like they were the perfect team - you're making the same case (possible greatest team ever) for 2 different teams, 6 years apart...who both just happen to be versions of the Dallas Cowboys. I'm just curious if you think you're opinion of these teams might possibly be tainted by the fact that you're, obviously, a big Dallas fan.
I have my opinions too, as everyone does, and they may or may not align with what is commonly thought of as "correct" or popular, and I don't expect you'll come to your senses just because I make a few points or express a few opinions, and you can take this with a grain of salt if you like - but I have never heard or seen anyone, anywhere, expert or non-expert, say either the 1971 or 1977 Cowboys are the greatest team ever, or even in the top 5...now, why do you suppose that is?
One final point, regarding the "genius" of Tom Landry (he of the Craig Morton - Roger Staubach QB play-to-play platoon). Landry had a reputation as a good coach, but one who couldn't win the big game. Now, I realize that when faced with an all-time great rival, it can be hard to get over that hump. The same was said of the Raiders, until '76, when they finally beat the Steelers and got to and won the SB. And even then, and even though they went 13-1, and pretty much dominated the entire league that year (save the Patriots, who gave them their only loss, and almost beat them in the playoffs), there were those who said the Raiders wouldn't have beaten Pittsburgh if it hadn't been for injuries (Bradshaw was hurt, along with another big player or two). Sour grapes, right? But whatever, the Raiders won 2 subsequent titles with no such "questions" - they were the first Wild Card to win the SB in 1980, and the '83 team should be in the conversation of greatest teams of the SB era. I'd certainly rank the '83 Raiders over either Dallas team you mentioned. But back to my point...
In '71, Landry faced off against Don Shula, another coach with a reputation for choking in the big game. Similarly to the 1992 playoffs, when the Eagles played the Saints, SOMEBODY had to win. And in '77, the Broncos somehow made it out of the AFC, coming from nowhere. And let's not forget who their QB was - Craig Morton, whom Dallas knew inside out (not that there was much to know. He was average on his best day). So I'd say that while it's impressive to just get to 5 Super Bowls, it seems to me both Landry teams to win the whole thing were very fortunate in their SB opponent (the Dolphins didn't really hit their stride until '72, and even then they were SB underdogs - as an undefeated team - mostly due to Shula's rep). And while that shouldn't diminish the accomplishment of winning the SB (you can't pick your opponent after all) in those years, it does affect something like a conversation about the mythical Greatest Team Ever, which is based solely on opinion and cannot ever be proven (no matter how you might try). I rest my case. I will never be of the opinion that either of those Cowboys teams is even close to GOAT. As I'm sure you're opinion won't change due to my presentation.
One final thing: I said the '80s was the peak of competition in the NFL (Your point about free agency is on the mark, for sure, but that's only part of it). I stand by that statement, but to qualify it, IMHO, the style of play (along with the fact of the NFC's total dominance of the AFC in Super Bowls) continued into the 90s...so in my view, the "Eighties" didn't really end until '95. When Green Bay finally beat the Cowboys and won the SB, it signalled to me a sea change. I found Green Bay to be inferior to the champions that came before, and I submit as proof the fact that the following season they became the first NFC team to lose a Super Bowl since the Raiders decimated the favored 'Skins 13 years prior. After '95, the league seemed more even, overall (and the league has continued on the path to parity - mediocrity? - ever since).
"I shall wear this (bruise) as a badge of honor"
"Wear it in silence, or I'll honor you again"
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krl97a
11 years ago
I already said I'm a fan, lol, but I supported my opinion with plenty of objective facts. Since you admittedly hate Dallas I don't expect you to agree with me, but I was hoping you'd try to mount some type of factual or least rational counterargument. Instead, all you did was repeat your vague impression of other people's biased opinions. Oh well. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Most "rankings" you see in any category are pretty half-assed (especially on the NFL Network); sports journalists typically aren't rocket scientists to start with, and they love throwing together lists with splashy headlines that they haven't devoted much real research or critical thought to.
BTW, I do know a lot of people, including some non Cowboys fans, who have claimed the 77 Cowboys or one of the other Dallas teams are at least in the argument for greatest of all time. I didn't say they're the only teams in the discussion, but when you win five Super Bowls in the Great Team Era (pre-parity), all by double digits and most by crushing margins, featuring greatness on both defense and offense, and offensive versatility in having both HoF running and passing attacks, it's not surprising if some Cowboys teams get mentioned in "greatest team" discussions. There's something wrong if they aren't.
The national sports media has generally had an anti-Cowboys bias, of course, but sometimes such opinions even break through there. Here's a 2011 Sports Illustrated article (the same outfit that has published stories with titles like "Why I hate the Dallas Cowboys" over the years) arguing that the 1971 Cowboys might have the "best roster ever".
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/don_banks/11/22/1971.cow boys/index.html
It's a great piece, my only quibble being that "Doomsday" was already in use by the late 1960s, contrary to what he says.
As for Landry, even most anti-Cowboys journalists, unless they're ignorant, put him on the NFL's Mt. Rushmore. Shula too. The "couldn't win the big game" myth was a temporary media line that totally vanished when he won multiple Super Bowls. I'm not sure why you put "genius" in scare quotes since Landry not only developed both the offensive and defensive game plans (when was the last time a coach did that?), but was a revolutionary innovator on both sides of the ball.
Among countless contributions, he invented the 4-3 defense as the defensive coordinator for a champion Giants team (later modified it with the "flex"), was the major pioneer of complex offensive pre-snap shifting to confuse defenses (he had his disciplined lines suddenly stand up in unison before each play as a screen), revived and popularized the briefly used and long since discarded shotgun formation, invented the concept of the "third down running back" after realizing Preston Pearson could still be useful when Dorsett was drafted, and as far as I know was the one who fully developed concepts like defensive keys, weakside/strongside linebackers, and strong/free safeties. His Cowboys were the first team to hire true strength and quality control coaches.
He was an experimenter, and experiments don't always go well for anyone (like the QB shuffling), but most of Landry's worked. He took under the radar guys from small schools and turned them into stars. He had the vision to move players to new positions where they proved well suited. Mel Renfro was most famous as a college running back, and that's where most NFL teams would have played him, but with Dallas he became a Hall of Fame defensive back. Landry moved Rayfield Wright from tight end to offensive tackle, turning him into a Hall of Famer. He turned defensive linemen Blaine Nye, Pat Donovan, and Mark Tuinei into stalwart, Pro Bowl offensive linemen. He converted a basketball star named Cornell Green who had never played a down of college football into a five time Pro Bowl defensive back. Most of his great players credit him for cultivating their skills. He developed assistants like Mike Ditka and Dan Reeves.
In some ways his success is unmatched. He took over an expansion team filled with cast offs and walk ons that didn't even get to participate in the regular draft (much less get all the extra picks and perks that more recent expansion teams have) because they had to start a year ahead of schedule to compete with the AFL Texans, and had them in contention among the established NFL elites in just a few seasons.
He has 270 wins, 20 of them in the playoffs. His 20 consecutive winning seasons are an NFL record that may never be broken. In that span his teams only missed the playoffs twice, winning 13 division titles and appearing in 12 conference championship games. His Super Bowl losses were all by 4 points or less, one of them a surprise Cinderella run enabled by the original "Hail Mary" play and the others marred by gross officiating controversy. His Super Bowl wins were by crushing margins, and against outstanding competition. The Orange Crush was a legitimately great defense and Craig Morton was a good QB who led two different teams to the Super Bowl (including Dallas once), finished among the league's top few in passer rating around half the decade (his career number is about 10 points higher than the 1970s "average"), and was inducted into the Broncos Ring of Fame. Landry is the only coach to ever hold his Super Bowl opponent without a touchdown, and you can't spin that away. That opponent, Shula, has the NFL wins record and became the only coach to ever go undefeated the following season, tacking on a second Super Bowl win the year after that. You're talking about two of the greatest coaches of all time, and Landry didn't just edge him out that game; it was a crushing blowout that was even more lopsided than the score indicated. You have no case.
I'd certainly rank the '83 Raiders over either Dallas team you mentioned.
I'm not surprised you didn't even try to back that up with any facts. The 83 Raiders surrendered over 21 points a game! In yardage they ranked 7th on offense and 4th on defense. You bring up underdogs, well the 83 Raiders were underdogs going into the Super Bowl, and for good reason. Plunkett threw almost as many interceptions as tds in the regular season, 18 to 20 (which, in fairness, likely contributed to the dismal points allowed number). The Raiders got on a hot streak in the playoffs, but so have a lot of other teams. It's fair to say the 1977 Cowboys had a better defense. On offense the Raiders had Marcus Allen, but the Cowboys had Tony Dorsett. Would you rather have Jim Plunkett or Roger Staubach? I know you're a big Raiders fan, but I just don't see it. I think the greatest Raiders team was probably the 76 crew, mostly because Stabler was insanely good that year, guys like Branch and Hendricks were still in their primes, and they had Shell and Upshaw on the line (at least partially making up for not having Allen), though I'd still rank the 71 and 77 Cowboys higher.
One final thing: I said the '80s was the peak of competition in the NFL (Your point about free agency is on the mark, for sure, but that's only part of it). I stand by that statement, but to qualify it, IMHO, the style of play (along with the fact of the NFC's total dominance of the AFC in Super Bowls) continued into the 90s...so in my view, the "Eighties" didn't really end until '95. When Green Bay finally beat the Cowboys and won the SB, it signalled to me a sea change. I found Green Bay to be inferior to the champions that came before, and I submit as proof the fact that the following season they became the first NFC team to lose a Super Bowl since the Raiders decimated the favored 'Skins 13 years prior. After '95, the league seemed more even, overall (and the league has continued on the path to parity - mediocrity? - ever since).
I think we mostly agree here, except the Cowboys actually beat the Packers in 1996 too. The move to parity was gradual, not overnight, and Dallas started losing key role players to the new rules immediately after the 1992 championship season. I see 1996 as the tipping point season: more parity than Great Team, though things continued to decline from there. In some metrics the 1996 Packers were excellent, but they were one dimensional on offense (everything went through Favre), came from an historically (and then still) weak division, and combined 2-4 great players with a few good ones and a whole lot of average ones; more of the latter than the previously dominant teams had.
And, as you suggest, one could sense a sea change in the NFL's underlying dynamics at the time. It's not surprising that the evening out process reached the point where the AFC finally broke through the following season. I remember the legendary Pat Summerall even saying a year or so earlier that once the Cowboys and 49er dynasties declined there wouldn't be any great teams anymore. History has borne him out, though I'm still hopeful that something will happen to change the dynamics so we can see truly great teams again.
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