My thoughts - Beautiful Kate (2009) Discussion

[–] FleurDeLis777 14 years ago

Agreed, I was really impressed with the movie, it is very deep, and the filming, the acting, the music is just great. You really get immersed in the experience. I def did not expect to like it when I first started watching. One of the best Australian movies in a long time.
In terms of content, I agree with you totally - with her beauty and "maliciousness", Katie disturbed the balance of the family and the relationship between the brothers and the father. Sally was a silent observer and the only one to see the truth for what it is despite her young age. She had to literally tell Ned what happenned between her and Cliff for him to realize what really happenned. He was so captured by her beauty, her memory, he refused to see things for what they are. Sometimes the truth is so close to us but we just continue to choose and ignore it, and unf. hurt people along the way. Ned did realize at the end, but it was too late for his father...

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[–] actionmanrandell 14 years ago

i dont really think kate was the problem with the family in my opinion the father was the problem. and as for kate and neds relationship. many psychologists have said that we can not control who we are attracted to.. also on another note its common place for twins who are of the oppisite sex to develope some type of incestous relationship one reason is because of the closeness that twins tend to have often leads them down that path

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[–] FleurDeLis777 14 years ago

true but how do you explain the attraction between the other brother and kate. had it been only with her twin brother, your theory would hold true, but she managed to captivate and attract her older brother as well. of course instability of the family and the death of her mother pushed her to where she was but at the end of the day, she chose her actions.

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[–] actionmanrandell 13 years ago

well my theory isnt a theory it is a fact. around 50% of male female twins have some sexual attraction to eachother. aswell as evidence that shows those type of thoughts are hereditary.

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[–] vernon 13 years ago

A beautiful film. However why do so many "blame" Kate, as in so many other situations of a "problem" in a male/female relationship.. A male (or two) was involved in the relationship in this film..
Also, as someone else has written, often we cannot control whom we are attracted to.

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[–] marque911 14 years ago

Think you used enough exclamation marks?

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[–] what-about-second-breakf 13 years ago

I don't necessarily think Kate was mentally ill...

This film, or more so the incestuous themes, reminded me of "The God of Small Things" a book by Arundhati Roy. The books deals a lot with separating sex from love, needs and feelings, etc.

Watching Beautiful Kate, I felt like Kate was afraid of growing up. She mentions how old is ugly, and how she preferred the way things were when she and her siblings were children.

When Ned expresses sexual desire toward Tamara at the rodeo ("Reckon I might be able to cop a feel?"). Kate's reaction is jealousy, as it is someone diverting her brother's attention. It is something, as his sister, that she can't compete with.

To her, a sexual relationship with her brother comes naturally, because I'm not sure if she truly desired Ned in that sense. Sibling relationships are so innocent in childhood, and especially combining that with unusual and constant isolation on a rural property.

I think her actions were very childlike, she was trying to preserve her relationship with her brother and keep him all to herself.
Obviously, in the adult world, there is no real separation of sex and love, and her actions are fundamentally wrong and it creates a myriad of emotions and secrets within the family..

I'm not condoning the behaviour, but I am empathising with it. It is wrong, yet I feel as though I understand the reasoning. Did anyone else feel the same way?

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[–] actionmanrandell 13 years ago

why are her actions fundimentally wrong. frued said that as children every person goes through some form of incestous thought and as we grow old we are conditioned to have a taboo about it

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[–] what-about-second-breakf 13 years ago

Well, I think there would be a general consensus among most people today that a sexual relationship between siblings is fundamentally wrong. That's not to say I do.

But you're absolutely right about incestuous relationships being labelled as such a taboo. Which I think is the main antagonistic feature in this film; not the incest itself, but the need to keep it a secret, because Ned was fearful of how he would be judged.

Certainly, when we get down to brass tacks, sex's basic purpose is for reproduction. Therefore it is understandable when society does not gaze fondly to those involved in an incestual relationship; due to science's evidence of birth defects and other impairments....

It is my opinion, as I may have mentioned in my previous post, that Kate and Ned saw sex in two different views. To Kate, it was comparable with hugging or kissing her brother.

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[–] bjdomeij 13 years ago

From a rational perspective, there's nothing fundamentally wrong besides the negative effects of inbreeding, which although is indeed serious, is not proportional to the disgust and taboo that our culture teaches.

Besides out cultural "wrong", there's also a subconscious wrong, which is an instinct which has developed evolutionary as an effect of the negative effects of inbreeding. Many animals prefer a partner outside family, eventhough they have no understanding of inbreeding.

The cultural wrong is more complicated, but I guess the genus roles of our past have been very influential. It was often a burden to have ones daughter staying inside the family, as she could preferably bring wealth to the family, or establish benificial connections by marrying a man outside the family.

--- Back to topic ---

Personally I see the movie as a perfectly plausible tragedy, that had no one to blame. In my oppinion, what triggered the tragedy was not Kate, but the taboo and shame that her actions ment to her brothers and father.

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[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] actionmanrandell 13 years ago

freud may be outdated but many evidence has risen that proves his belief systems

such as the fact that many woman end up marring men who remind them of there fathers

big evidence that supports that
is the fact that most woman who grew up in a house hold where there fathers abused there mothers end up dating and or marrying abussive pricks

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[–] actionmanrandell 13 years ago

actually scientific evidence shows that a thousand years ago there was nearly no negative effects of inbreeding.
most of histories roylity has been inbred look at cleopatra of egypt(who was not of egyptian heratage but greek)she was married to her father and possibly bore children with him, she was also married to her brothers,and possibly her son.

king tut.(married to his sister)
most of the king and queens of europe(married to family)
infact many of the royle families of europe such as the british royles are related to the french.german hell there almost all actually related by blood

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[–] bjdomeij 13 years ago

It's when the process is repeated the data becomes usable. Genetic depression is often observed when a species is near extinction. Numerous tests have been made on lab-animals to verify and study the negative effects of inbreeding.
Studying a few historical cases is useless since inbreeding is about probabilies. It's when the process repeated you can identify a clear corelation.

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[–] actionmanrandell 12 years ago

yes thats true but the statistics show that there isnt much difference between incestous relationships and non incestous relationships(on a genetic defect level) what i mean is a brother and sister have a 6 to 7%chance to produce offspring with a defect(usually congenetial heart defect) cousins have a 4 to 5 % chance and non related couples have a 3 to 4% chance meaning there isnt much of a difference.
and the main contributing factor is the degradation of our genetic code. as in over time our dna begins to degrade. when you have multi genetational incest that is a big problem because they keep inharriting mutiion after mutation.

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[–] actionmanrandell 12 years ago

based on your statements no one would procreate.
because there isnt much of a difference between having sex with family and someone who isnt related to you(even though everyone is distintly related)
the average couple have about a 3 to 4%chance of having a child with a defect(usually congenital heart defect) a incestous couple such as cousins have a 4 to 5%chance and incestous couples of siblings and higher blood relations have a 6 to 7% meaning there is no real difference.
we dont live in a movie where incest makes canibal babies. what incest is genetically wrong is multigenerational incest ie a brother and sister have children then there children have children etc ect
if you thank about it. the real reason incest isnt common is because our population level. you see if a man sleeps with a relative he is more likely to actually get her pregnant and is more likely to carry full term. that is why in the old days incest was common. main reason was because incestous relationships gave more children

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[–] actionmanrandell 13 years ago

actually science proves 2 things about incest

1. incest between closely related individuals actually increases the chances of procreation
what i mean by this is that( when 2 people of such close relations have sex there genetics are much more compatible with eachother then say 2 random individuals having sex) in this manner. 2 close related people are more likely to actually conceve a child
2. the second thing science proves about incest is that people of specific closeness such as brothers and sisters father daughters and what not have a higher rate of birth defects(often labled as retardation in movies, even though the most common defect is congenital heart defect not retardation.)
the father away you get the less of a chance of a defect you get.
in normal random couples who are not closely related. the chances of having a child with a defect is around 2 to 3% in other words 2 to 3 out of every 100 random babies will be born with some kind of defect.
people of close relations such as brothers and sisters daughters and fathers have roughly 6 to 7% chance of having a baby with a defect.
where in people as close as 1st cousins once removed(a child of a cousin)
have around a 4 to 5% chance of having a heart defect
these numbers tell most biologists that the difference between closely related people and random individuals chances of defects are not large enough to marrit a major problem
in other words many scientists say that incest laws are rediculous

on another scientific note.
science also proves that 2 individuals can not have a child unless they share common ancestory the only reason you can have a child with john/jane/doe walking down the street is because you share common ancestory with everyone on earth.
this is why humans cant mate with animals
because we do not share enough DNA with them to have a compatibility with them

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[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] bear022013-588-696101 12 years ago

Your thoughts and incest ramblings are incoherent.

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[–] Lt_Zogg 12 years ago

Let's not let Bruce off the hook. A frequent reaction to an absent (the mother) or distant or critical parent is competition for approval and affection from the parent, competition for attention, and lack of knowledge of how to properly express affection. Kate and Ned find approval in each other and shelter from their father. Kate tells Cliff because she wants his attention. Cliff and Ned fight for Bruce's approval, and Kate is just one bone of their contention. Of course, their budding hormones also play a role.

Sally is spared because of her relative age--pre-adolescent and too young to be in contention.

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[–] bear022013-588-696101 12 years ago

Bryan Brown and perhaps Rachel Ward..the reason for my viewing.

Living in a morally bankrupt country and film industry of late
I felt the need for an Australian film...son returns to be with
his ailing Father.Not prepared at all for the non stop filth...I
kept watching..trusting that the sex scenes would be cursory at
best and the character development and story line would begin.
Candidly,the film made me wretch and I realized that this was not
The Proposition.
There is no basis,whereby,this waste of scenery,talent and score
can be labeled anything but smut!

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[–] bear022013-588-696101 12 years ago

Bryan Brown and perhaps Rachel Ward..the reason for my viewing.

Living in a morally bankrupt country and film industry{USA} of late
I felt the need for an Australian film...son returns to be with
his ailing Father.Not prepared at all for the non stop filth...I
kept watching..trusting that the sex scenes would be cursory at
best and the character development and story line would begin.
Candidly,the film made me wretch and I realized that this was not
The Proposition.
There is no basis,whereby,this waste of scenery,talent and score
can be labeled anything but smut!

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[–] jbl266 12 years ago

Perhaps you should wash out your eyes with bleach, and then shut up.

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[–] IrishLumog 12 years ago

The question that this film leaves me with most is "Why Kate acted as she did"? Was it related to the trauma of losing her mother at an early age? It is somewhat interesting that the film chose to almost completely omit details of her death.

To me, it is very much ambiguous if Kate had a sexual relationship with Cliff. It is impossible to know this for sure. Sally is only guessing. And the only slight evidence is from her kissing him during the fight. But why wouldnt cliff feel a lot of guilt for causing the crash? Sally's story doesnt seem to stand up for me.
I suspect that sally may have 'invented' that story to help the healing process of Ned. This would be in line with Sally's good natured character.

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[–] TheBayHarborButcher 10 years ago

I can't say I agree that Kate was the problem. I think there were probably other deeper problems that effected the family besides Kate. For one, the father didn't really know how to be there for his kids. He sheltered and fed them, but that seems like the only real effort he put towards his kids. Secondly, I think the isolation of the farm life probably had some effects on the kids. They were going through puberty with their hormones raging all over the place, so it kind of makes sense that with not many other teens around who were close to their age that they were drawn to each other.

Kate may have been a problem, but if she did indeed suffer from a mental illness than you can't really blame her actions entirely on her. She couldn't help herself.

Additionally, I think that it is entirely possible that Kate and Ned were drawn to each other out of fate. There are a lot of ways to look at this story, but I like to look at it as a very untraditional love story. Despite their isolation from the world, Kate and Ned looked like they shared a really tight and close bond. There was something really special about their relationship, in my opinion. It's sad that things had to work out the way they did.

Formerly whydotheycancelgoodtv

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[–] malika585 9 years ago

Agreed. There are many different interpretations possible. Ones where Kate is manipulative, conniving or an innocent or just a normal girl who genuinely falls in love with her twin brother.

To me it seemed like a tragic love story as I saw Kate and Ned falling in love. Ned was fighting his feelings for her and trying to be the responsible one. Kate was the opposite and gave into her feelings for him.

After they have sex by the pond, their sibling dynamic totally changes as Ned cannot see her as his sister but as a girl he wants to be with. Kate was more child like in her manner. After the sex, Ned immediately apologizes because he sees the situation in its seriousness, as an adult and he knows it was a taboo. Kate's immediate reaction is more lighthearted as she goes into the water to wash and sings some nursery rhyme "if your happy and you know it clap your hands...". She is happy and totally at ease. She even tried to make Ned feel better by telling him he can think of her as someone else if it hurts so much.

Kate treats Ned as a brother/ childhood friend whom she has grown to love. When he rejects her, she tells Cliff an extremely mild version of the truth to get Ned's attention. It reminded me of a teenage drama, if it weren't for the incest. The girl complains to her older brother so that the boyfriend would be warned about treating her right. I think that's how far as she had planned it. She probably assumed that Cliff, being the nice guy, would talk to Ned. I don't think she had anticipated that Ned was so torn up with guilt that he would invite the fight with Cliff. Her kissing Ned could be seen as her affection for her brother and an apology whereas her reaction to Ned was more womanly and passionate as she mouths that she hates him basically for beating up the mild mannered Cliff.

Then we see the chemistry and sexual tension between Ned and Kate at the dance. The song in the background cannot be a total coincidence. The lyrics "I know I didn't treat you right... you were always on my mind" basically sums up their feelings. Ned is jolted out of the moment when someone pushes him and then he rejects Kate's invitation to leave the party early. Again, he's freaked out by his own feelings and the fact that Kate does not hold back her's at all. He harshly rejects her and immediately goes and has sex with another girl to forget about Kate.

Crushed by being rejected again, Kate turns to Cliff for comfort. It is possible that she could have had sex with Cliff in the car before the accident as Sally suggested. It is one interpretation, thought I beg to differ.

It is equally possible that Kate was really upset and Cliff consoled her as a brother/ best friend. Kate could have spent all that time telling Cliff what happened between her and Ned. It would have to have been a long conversation. How many of us have spent an entire night talking to a friend who also knows our partner, trying to understand and dissect the relationship and just figure things out. Here the situation is so much more complicated.

Cliff was supposed to be "weaker", basically a more sensitive person whom the father was trying to toughen up. Knowing the truth, Cliff would have been understandably devastated and distracted enough to not react in time, resulting in a crash. Kate was killed and Cliff would have carried the burden of not only causing her death but also knowing her secret.

Cliff may have been able to live with the secret and even been the couple's protector, but only if Kate had lived. His suicide was an act of forgiving Ned and saving him from their father's wrath. He saw the whole thing situation as ending with his own death as Ned was already putting a stop to it from his side. Cliff may have blamed himself for the death of not only a daughter and sister but also of the girl that his brother loved. How would he face them all? How would he react to Ned? In anger or as a loving confidant? His feelings were so conflicted, his guilt so great that he commits suicide.

Sally was a young girl at the time. She may have known the truth about Ned and Kate but I think her conclusion about Kate and Cliff is based on a assumption. She see's Ned and Kate's relationship as a taboo, something for which Ned needed to be forgiven. So naturally she thinks Kate was messed up and therefore also assumes the worst of Cliff.

In all honestly, my interpretation may not be the director's intention since Ned is clearly meant to be guilty and self harming and finally atones for his sins and is forgiven by the virtuous Sally, who is meant to be the father's "true achievement". But I find my interpretation is more tragic and touching. Ned does get some peace by understanding that his father was not malicious in his treatment of Cliff but trying to do his best by him. Ned and Kate were emotionally stronger and could handle what happened, but cliff in fact was more emotional, impulsive and the suicide was his own decision.

for the original imdb layout:
http://www.imdb.com/help/show_leaf?redesignolddesign

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