MovieChat Forums > Fitna (2008) Discussion > Lets Analyse the Lies of Wilders in Fitn...

Lets Analyse the Lies of Wilders in Fitna


Watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DAerxKYipU
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=BEF7CA0A0A4304D7

Geert Wilders has done as excellent job of deliberately concealing,
distorting, lying, mistranslating, and misquoting out of context verses
from Quran and statements of speakers from Public Lectures in order to
mislead the unsuspecting public. Following is a synopses of this film.

Where ever he quotes a verse from Quran, it is some or all of the
following cases:

1. The translation is deliberately false partially or in its entirety.
2. Incomplete verse is quoted in order to conceal the context.
3. Preceding verses are deliberately not quoted in order to conceal the context.
4. Following verses are not quoted in order to conceal the alternative option that's available in Islamic law.
5. Completely unrelated videos with opposing message to the verse are juxtaposed to enforce a false sense of fear towards the verses.

Where ever public speaker are shown and quoted, some or following are true:

1. The translation subtitles are false.
2. Loud music is added to make it difficult to understand what exactly the speaker is saying.
3. Critical sections that establish the context of talk are clipped out.
4. Unrelated videos are added between or after Public lecture clips to
enforce the false translations.

Every one is welcome to watch the above stated videos that expose the concoctions of Mr. Wilders and discuss them in the light of verifiable evidence.

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I watched the videos and for a holy book I was surprised at how much the koran had to say about the rules of engagement for battle and warfare.

But this is what I want to know. The video talks about “false translations” and “true translations” of the Koran. But which translation of the koran is “true” and who gets to decide?

The Bible has been translated many times and in many places. Some Christians say the The King James translation in the true version. Other Christians say that the New International Version is the true version. There is no completely “true” version of the bible.

So when you talk about the “True Translation” of the koran which one are you talking about and who were the translators? Also what it meant by the word “true”? Is “true” absolute or relative? Is the “true” English translation of the Koran as true as the original Arabic version?

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Brother Gordon,

I hope that you are in good health and spirit.

Thank you for your valuable comments on the videos.

I have uploaded a document on scribd that may answer your questions about Quranic Translations.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/4373688/Translations-of-the-Quran-Dr-Jamal-B adawi

Thanks and regards

Arshie

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Dear Arshie

I read the link you gave me and so I understand that the Koran can not be translated into English without losing something very vital. Since I don’t have the language skills to learn Arabic I regret that I’ll never fully understand Islam.

But if Islam is truly a religion of peace and compassion why not let the Israelis have their little country and live in peace? Yes I know the Israelis are a very horrible people and they don’t deserve the land. I know what I’m suggesting is a terrible solution. But it is a solution.

What would the Arabs lose? They’d still have their oil and they’d still have a thousand times more land than the Israelis. Yes, there would be refugees to resettle, and for that I’m sorry, but would that be any worse than having them living in camps for another 60 years? Would it be any worse than another 60 years of bloodshed and dead children?

Anyone with adult memories of pre Israel Palestine is now pushing 80 or older. Soon they will all be gone and pre Israel Palestine will no longer be a living memory. It will only be something in the history books. If Muslims value peace why prolong the pain and suffering? What point dose it serve? Why not let the Israelis have their country?

Peace

Gordon

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After I saw with my own eyes what the *beep* muslims do to inhabitants in sudan, South Somalia and mauretania I decided to start hating all muslims for the first time in my life.
They are the most brutal murderes on earth. Look what muslims do to christians in Mauretania (20% percent of the whole population are slaves and most of them innocent caucasian whites!)...they are sold them off as slaves to slave traders. It's the same in Sudan.
And in South somalia they are killing every non muslim the most barbaric way i ve ever saw in my life without even regret. The concetration camps in Nazi german in WW2 is nothing compared to what I saw in South somalia arabs doing to non muslims!

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Brother Relay_x,

It is sad to see oppression. Oppression cannot be tolerated no matter who the perpetrator is. As a Muslim who claims strive to practice the Prophet's character I can only quote Al-Quran, Surah Nisa, Chapter 4, verse 135: “Oh you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even though it be against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, be he rich or poor, Allah is a better protector to both (than you). So follow not your lusts, lest you may avoid justice, and if you distort your witnesses or refuse to give it, verily, Allah is ever well acquainted with what you do.”

So brother I hope that you can hate ("all muslims" - 1) from now on. And perhaps you will find more to abate the hatred.

It is not right generalize an entire group of people based on the actions of a few. There are black sheep in every community.

From what you have said, I make it out that you have yourself been to the African countries that you have mentioned. And you have first hand knowledge of what is going on there. Kindly tell us more about it. And also point us in the direction of some reference that corroborates you r statements.

While Inhumanely treating a person is grossly wrong, History shows that slavery as understood and practiced by the by much of the non-Islamic world is quite distinct from the Islamic rulings. Islam gradually removed slavery from societies which were deeply rooted in it as an acceptable norm. The fact that there are Islamic rulings on how to deal with slaves if someone has one does not mean that one should have one. One of the most highly rewarded action in the sight of God is "freeing of a slave". Another matter to bear in mind is that Islam and culture are two distinct entities and people often confuse one with another when passing their verdict against Islam. A brief writeup of this matter is presented here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/slavery_1.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/slavery_2.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/slavery_3.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/slavery_4.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/slavery_5.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/slavery_6.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/slavery_7.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/slavery_8.shtml




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Dear Arshie

I read with interest (and horror) the link on slavery. Here are the passages that really caught my eye.

Male slaves who had had their sexual organs removed were called eunuchs, and played an important part in some Muslim societies (as they did in some other cultures).

They had the advantage for their masters of not being subject to sexual influence, and as they were unlikely to marry, they had no family ties to hinder their devotion to duty.

Eunuch slavery involved compulsory mutilation, which usually took place between the ages of 8 and 12. Without modern medical skills and anaesthetics this was painful, and often led to fatal complications, and sometimes to physical or psychological problems for those who survived the operation.

And this:
But some female slaves were forced to become sex workers: not prostitutes, as this is forbidden in Islam, but concubines. Concubines were women who were sexually available to their master, but not married to him. A Muslim man could have as many concubines as he could afford.

So a boy as young as eight might have his balls and perhaps even his penis cut off. Woman might be forced to have sex but it is claimed that Muslims did not mistreat their slaves! Incredible!

But here is the real question. If Muhammad was the final profit and the Koran is Allah’s last, final and complete message to man how do Muslims account for the fact that slavery is now considered an abomination?

Why were the Muslims the last people to end the practice of slavey and the castration of little boys?






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Brother Gordon,

Thanks for your interesting (and horrific) comments on the article.

To start with, this article simply states the information that the author has acquired from various sources. It does not perform an analysis of the information.

An important point to note here is that there is a difference between Islam (which is based on Quran and Sahih Hadith) and culture. Many times a particular group of people carry certain cultural traits which are not sanctioned by the religion they profess. Therefore, to judge a religion one has to go back to the source of the religion, the scriptures.

You have mentioned some wrong cultural traits that some Muslim and non muslim societies have had, what is interesting is that you have quoted only the portion where "Muslim" is mentioned. I have no problem with that. But, it would have been much better if you would have also quoted the positive Muslim aspects and how Islam dealt with slavery.

What amazes me is that the slavery in non-muslim cultures, which is much more inhumane and degrading as compared to slavery in muslim cultures didn't manage to horrify you!




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Dear Arshie

This brings up a very interesting point. I’m a patriotic American. I love my country and yet I wish that George Washington had never been a slave owner. I wish that Washington had been more than he was. I wish he was better.

During Washington’s lifetime, and ever since his death, American’s have criticizes him for owning slaves. Slavery stands in contrast to everything we believe.

Do Muslims criticize Mohammed for being a slave owner? How can they? To a Muslim Mohammed is perfect, blameless and without sin. For that reason there were never any homegrown Islamic abolitionist movements.

The pressure for the Muslims to give up slavery came from the outside, from the west, and not from within. Slavery was legal in Saudi Arabia into the 1960’s and even today people there do not consider it morally objectionable.

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Dear Gordon,

You being a patriotic American abhor the slave trade which America was built on. And very rightly so. The slave trade carried out by European powers to America was intensely inhumane. They ferried human beings as goods. To them African and Indian people were slaves and commodities first, and human beings last.

On the contrary, in Islam slaves were treated as human beings first, and slave later. Slaves were respected, they owned properties, even held government positions. This concept of slavery is completely alien to the western world.

Please read the following link for further information about the concept of Slavery in Islam.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/4713458/How-is-it-that-Islam-allows-Slavery

Thanks

Arshie

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[deleted]

Brother MinorSmith,

Thanks for your links. But these links are well known for their Islamophobic articles which are written without evidence and out of context by writers without any scholarly background.

If you are really interested in a comparative study of Slavery in Islamic and Western world then I would suggest this book.

SLAVERY (ISLAMIC & WESTERN PERSPECTIVES)
Author ALLAMAH SAYYID SA'EED AKHTAR RIZVI
Publisher AHLUL BAIT(A.S.) FOUNDATION OF SOUTH AFRICA
ISBN # 0-920675-07-7

The book is also available for online reading

http://www.al-islam.org/slavery/

If you are interested in a short read then the link for Fetullah Gulen's article is here.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/4713458/How-is-it-that-Islam-allows-Slavery

Peace be to everyone who is search for truth

Arshie

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But these links are well known for their Islamophobic articles which are written without evidence and out of context by writers without any scholarly background.
Not an ounce of truth to your claim.

Making such a claim doesn't dictate the validity of the claim. The truth against Islam is universal, and it has been proven that Islam utilizes deceptive tactics.

The Arabs (Islam) practiced slavery many centuries before any European involvement.

We know more about you than you know about yourself.

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Brother MinorSmith,

Here are some articles and books to clarify the misconceptions people have about Slavery. You are welcome to comment on them after reading them.

http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/1371146/folder/33775

Peace be to everyone who is looking for truth.

Arshie

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[deleted]

Dear Gordon,
I really appreciate ur interest in Islam..as for question above i suggest u go through any authentic book on the life of Prophet Mohammed (Peace be upon him).To understand the religion best you should go through the Holy Quran (an Englsih translation of course). You will definately understand much more than u expect.

You will read that the Prophet Mohammed (Pubh) never in his life mistreated a soul..slave or not.
In fact Anas (R) who was in the service of the prophet as a slave said that the compassion of Mohammed(pbuh) was such that in his entire service he never used a harsh word against him.


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Dear Gordon,
I really appreciate ur interest in Islam..as for question above i suggest u go through any authentic book on the life of Prophet Mohammed (Peace be upon him).To understand the religion best you should go through the Holy Quran (an Englsih translation of course). You will definately understand much more than u expect.

You will read that the Prophet Mohammed (Pubh) never in his life mistreated a soul..slave or not.
In fact Anas (R) who was in the service of the prophet as a slave said that the compassion of Mohammed(pbuh) was such that in his entire service he never used a harsh word against him.


Dear Uptown

I will read those books but at the moment I’m much more interested in your opinions. You said that Mohammed never mistreated a soul slave or not. But isn’t the mere act of owning another human mistreatment in itself? If you own a slave then you have deprived him of his freedom, surely that is mistreatment.

If slavery was brought back today with the stipulation that slaves be owned only by “nice” people would you have any objections? How would you feel about being a slave? Would you enjoy slavery just so long as you were owned by a “good” man? If you could sell your own children into slavery would you do so provided you were offered a good price? I’m sorry if my questions sound offensive but I would really like to know.

Sincerely

Gordon

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Dear Gordon,

I appreciate your questions, but at the same time I request you to go through some good books of the history of slavery. And specially the difference in the perspective of Slavery from Western and Islamic viewpoints.

Please elaborate on the nature of slavery in your hypothetical scenario. Are you referring to the Western/Christian style slavery which was based on racism and capitalistic ideology, where slaves were property and objects. This kind of slavery still exists in all of the world today. Or you are referring to the subdued form of slavery which Islamic legal system deals with. This form of slavery was a result of socio-economic conditions.

I am very sorry but the world is not as simple as you think it is. While the statement "If you could sell your own children into slavery would you do so provided you were offered a good price?" might be just a joke to you, its reality can only be felt by those people who have to spend their entire lives without proper roof, who has to suppress their hunger by eating grass and tying stones to their bellies, who quench their thirst through puddle water. It would not be a surprise if such a person sells his child to save his other child.

While the western world boasts of its Nike shoes made in some poor country or on some Island where poor people were enticed into slave labor, the poor suffered.

You might have heard about the the Nike and other factories that used to employ child labor. They made cheap goods and sold in the west for a good price. When the Human right activists forced them to fire all child labor, what happened? I will leave it to you to figure out and tell me what happened to the majority of child labor that couldn't afford daily food once child labor was banned in those factories.

Kindly go through the following books and articles for more information on slavery.

http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/1371146/folder/33775



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Dear Arshie

Let's limit ourselves to Islamic slavery only. Please correct me if I’m wrong but as I understand it a solder who is defeated in battle can be kept as a slave even after the war is over. Also his children can be kept as slaves as the spoils of war. The boys can be castrated to render them sexually dysfunctional and the girls can be raped by their owners once they reach puberty.

Indeed the world is a harsh place. But surely Muslims must have some sense of morality independent form the Koran. If the Koran is the final word we would all be living in the seventh century.


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[deleted]

Brother MinorSmith,

"Muslims have not grown out of 7th century" is a misconception in the minds of people who are grossly unaware of the world around them and who are oblivious of any historical knowledge.

On the contrary, it is because of Islam and Muslims that the Western world managed to recover from its Dark ages. The trumpet of Dark ages orchestrated by Western media and schooling network is nothing more than the Dark age for Europe, The rest of the world was basking in the Glory of Islam and progressing in all fields of sciences, while Europe was lost in Gloom.

It were the Muslims who translated Greek works and cam up with Innovations and new Inventions, which later formed the foundations of Renissance. When Europe was struggling with its dark muddy existence, Islamic Spain had running water, street lighting and paved roads.

For more information refer to the following links

http://www.muslimheritage.com/about/default.cfm
http://www.muslimheritage.com
http://www.1001inventions.com/

Peace be to everyone who is in search for truth

Arshie

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Hi Arshie, there seem to be several distortions of Islam being peddled on this thread - with good intentions no doubt. However, I think discussions about how Islam can be reformed such that it becomes acceptable in a civilized society need to focus on the real problems which need to be overcome. I want to stress that there are Muslims who acknowledge these problems, and do indeed want to reform Islam.

First, there is the notion that Islam is a "peaceful" religion. In fact, Islam currently explicitly preaches the execution of the following of our fellow citizens: apostates, homosexuals, married adulterers, atheists and blasphemers, and anyone seen to be "attacking" Islam by criticizing it. The victims implicated by these teachings amount to upwards of a billion people worldwide. As you can imagine, this is unacceptable. Islam must reform to the point where it explicitly denounces its mandated executions.

Second, I need to correct your inference that the quotes from the Qur'an Wilders uses are not correct, and that he presents an inaccurate view of Islam. In fact, Wilders lets the Islamic texts and Muslims speak for themselves, and thus ‘Fitna’ so accurately presents Islam that Islamic cleric Omar Bakri said he did not think it offensive "On the contrary, if we leave out the first images and the sound of the page being torn, it could be a film by the Mujahideen" he said. (see http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/020494.php for a free copy).

As someone who has studied Islam for several years both formally and informally, I like the idea of analysing the Qur'an, hadith, the Sharia, and current Islamic teachings. I for one am prepared to change my mind on anything if compelling evidence is presented, and I expect the same from Muslims.

Just a note on the scholar Dr. Zakir Naik who you apparently rate highly. Naik argues that people who leave Islam – our fellow citizens - should be executed at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRl5c-xPVA0. Now take a look at some photos of brave ex-Muslims at http://www.ex-muslim.org.uk/indexMembers.html, and read some of their comments, and ask yourself if you still support the incitement to murder these people.

Next, Dr. Naik argues that non-Muslims should have fewer rights than Muslims at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsGajgXkge4. And finally, he calls for Muslims to become terrorists at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxk5AAA5FbI&feature=related. Of Osama bin Laden, Dr.Naik says

"If he’s terrorizing America the terrorist – biggest terrorist – I’m with him. Every Muslim should be a terrorist. The thing is that if he’s terrorizing a terrorist, he’s for Islam…so I’m with those people who are following the Qur’an."
As founder of the 'Islamic International School' which aims to "provide Muslim children excellent quality education for their overall development" Naik represents the reason Islam is rightly dreaded by anyone who is familiar with it. I hope you consider reviewing your opinion of this person.

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Dear Brother Johntwest,

Thank you for your opinion.

Reformation is required in things that are not perfect. In my opinion there is no problem with Islam. However, It seems that we have a difference of opinion about it. So kindly state what according to you should be reformed in Islam and how. However if you are talking about reforming Muslims I agree with you there is a dire need to do so.

Please try not to look at Islam through the same glasses as Christianity and Judaism or any other religion for that matter. Islam acknowledges that since beginning God has been sending guidance through prophets but it got distorted over time. For example, in the Hindu scriptures it is clearly mentioned in numerous place that there is only one God, and none should be worshiped except One True God. Similar message is found in Judea-Christian texts, but the followers of such groups do not adhere to the first commandment itself.

I wonder if you have watched the analyzes of Geert Wilder's video, which not only proves that Mr. Wilders has distorted the facts and verses and demolishes every single allegation made by him.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=BEF7CA0A0A4304D7

The only thing I know about Omar Bakri is that he is considered by British government and many Islamic Scholars in Britain as a trouble maker if not a terrorist. As you have pointed out that Mr Bakri has endorsed Fitna that makes them two of kind - at best rabble-rouser at worst terrorist.

To make one thing clear, just the act of apostasy is not punishable by death. It has to be accompanied with treason, and same thing has been highlighted by Dr. Zakir Naik. I just want you to answer one thing. What is your opinion on Nazi Hunters going after fugitive Nazis and Jewish Nazi collaborators? If you support that then you have no basis to oppose Islam's stance on apostasy.

As far as the list of ex-Muslims is concerned they are free to practice their belief or disbelief in God. But if they are responsible for the death of any innocent human being, Muslim or non-Muslim alike, should they be pardoned just because they have renounced Islam?

Every citizen of any country like USA, Britain, Germany etc. has to swear an oath to uphold the constitution of that country. If he does not, then he has fewer rights as compared to those who adhere by the constitution. In an Islamic state the constitution is Quran and Sunnah. Its the same thing. Then how come Islam is oppressive while USA, UK etc. are free from blame?

Its a known fact, "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter". I dont know how many terror acts Osama bin Laden has committed. He was offered to undergo trial by Afghan Government of that time but US refused. So, I do not know who is a bigger terrorist? Him, or Madeline Albright who when asked "We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?", Secretary of State Madeleine Albright replied "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it".

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Every citizen of any country like USA, Britain, Germany etc. has to swear an oath to uphold the constitution of that country. If he does not, then he has fewer rights as compared to those who adhere by the constitution. In an Islamic state the constitution is Quran and Sunnah. Its the same thing. Then how come Islam is oppressive while USA, UK etc. are free from blame?


Really? The U.K. has an unwritten constitution. How is a Brit suppose to swear an oath to an unwritten document?. As for me, I’m an American and no one has ever asked me to swear an oath to the U.S. Constitution.



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Brother Reade-1

The constitution of the United Kingdom is the set of laws and principles under which the United Kingdom is governed.

The UK has no single constitutional document comparable to the Constitution of the United States. It is therefore often said that the country has an "unwritten constitution". However, the majority of the British constitution does exist in the written form of statutes, court judgments and European treaties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_constitution

It doesn't matter if the constitution is written or unwritten, just try doing something in opposition to your country's constitution. You will soon realize the consequences.

Just give it a try!

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just try doing something in opposition to your country's constitution. You will soon realize the consequences.

Just give it a try!

That’s a good idea.

Is freedom of religion in opposition to the US Constitution?

No.

Is freedom of speech in opposition to the US Constitution?

No.

Is freedom of the press in opposition to the US Constitution?

No.

Is freedom of assembly in opposition to the US Constitution?

No.

So I can think and speak and act for myself

Now Arshie are the same freedoms enjoyed in Islamic countries? You know they are not.

And that, in a nutshell, is the difference.

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The answer is certainly yes.

Keep in mind that Islamic Constitution is the Quran and Sunnah, therefore it follows that:

Freedom of religion is allowed as long as it is practiced personally and not propagated among the public in order to move people away from True Deen to False Deen. This is in accordance with Islamic constitution.

Freedom of speech is allowed as long as the tone and content does not go beyond the limits prescribed by Islamic constitution.

Freedom of press is allowed as long as the tone and content does not go beyond the limits prescribed by Islamic constitution. For instance spreading rumors, lies, immorality, indecency, violence, associating partners with God, maligning the prophets, etc.

Freedom of assembly is allowed as long as it is within the limits prescribed by Islamic constitution.

So Muslims are required to think, speak and act for the better of themselves and for the better of the society as a whole.

Therefore the issues you have raised are no issues at all.

In Islam there is a balance of rights and responsibilities.

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[deleted]

Dear Arshie

I’ve been thinking about your posts and I was wondering what your opinion is of the 9/11 hijackers. Do you consider them to be:

A) Good Muslims who simply misread the Koran and, with the best of intentions, made a dreadful mistake?

B) Bad Muslims who think that they are good Muslims and are simply acting in a manner that they think is good?

C) False Muslims who, for what ever reason, claim to be true muslims?

D) Jews who are working for the CIA and trying to make good Muslims look bad?

E) Something else I have not considered?

The word “Islam” means “Peace” or so I have been told. But how is it possible for a perfect religion to be so easily perverted?

Please help me to understand.

Gordon

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actually, islam means 'submission', not peace.

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But how is it possible for a perfect religion


Attention! danger! brainwashing action

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First of all, the purpose of this thread is to discuss the Lies that Geert Wilders has concocted in his video in the light of the response video links that I have presented in the first post. So please let us limit our discussion to the topic.

As for brother Gordon's concern that he will never be able to understand Islam due to his lack of skills in Arabic language obliges me to present the basic teachings of Islam to him. God gives guidance to whoever seeks truth with a pure heart. Everything in Islam has its basis on the Oneness of God. In Islam there are no ifs and buts about Oneness of God. In Al-Quran Chapter 112, God tells of Himself:

Say: He is God, One and Only.
God, The Absolute, The Eternal.
He Begets not Nor is He Begotten.
And there is absolutely nothing even remotely similar to Him.

In other words He is Supreme, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Seeing, most-forgiving, most-merciful, ever existent, independent, incomparable.

In Islam all human beings are created equal. Islam absolutely negates the concept of superiority of any nation, race, class or sect over another. This is evident from Holy Quran:

"O Mankind, We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other. Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is he who is the most righteous of you" (Quran 49:13).

This verse not only addresses Muslims but the whole of mankind as a single greater brotherhood. The criteria of superiority in the sight of God is not race, class or wealth, it is God consciousness. The fact that God divided men in different nations, colors and tribes is not wrong, rather it is a sign.

"And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colors. Verily, in that are indeed signs for those who know" [Quran 30:22]).

The injunctions of Quran are further emphasized by the last prophet of Islam, Muhammad (peace be upon him) throughout his life and specially during his last sermon: "All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black, nor a black has any superiority over a white- except by piety and good action."

And this concept of universal brother is practically implemented 5 times a day in the Mosques, streets and houses around the world during Salaah (prayers), where rich, poor, scholars, illiterates, all colors stand shoulder to shoulder and prostate together with humility. Universal brotherhood is further practically demonstrated when 2.5% of annual wealth is distributed to the needy in the community.

In Islam there are no intermediaries to God and no one can forgive anyone's sins on behalf of God. God is most forgiving most merciful, and closest to Human being, more closer to him than his jugular vein according to Quran. But God is the most Just. And it is out of His Justice that everyone would be held accountable, rewarded and punished.

"That no laden one shall bear another's load, And that man hath only that for which he maketh effort, And that his effort will be seen. And afterward he will be repaid for it with fullest payment; That to thy Lord is the final Goal;" Al-Quran 53:38-42. It states that every person is responsible for his own actions. One person cannot be held accountable for anothers persons deeds. There is no original sin. Every child is born sinless, with a clean slate. Everyone would be rewarded upon resurrection after death. And the reward would be eternal life in Paradise, or an eternal life in Hell-fire.

I hope this clarifies the basic teachings of Islam.

Thanks

Arshie

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Dear Arshie

One part of your last post really caught my attention.

Universal brotherhood is further practically demonstrated when 2.5% of annual wealth is distributed to the needy in the community.

2.5% would be just two and a half cents out of every dollar. My Swedish friend says that about 50% of his income goes to taxes and like most Swedes he isn’t Muslim. If he got to keep 97.5% of what he earned he'd be thrilled!

Is 2.5% really all that is required for universal brotherhood? It seems so little, no more than a trifle.




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Brother Gordon,

2.5% is the absolute minimum Obligatory Zakaah to be given to poor and needy neighbors. Please bear in mind that this law was enjoined upon Muslims over 1400 years back. Europe had to struggle with the concept of social welfare for over a 1000 years before they started to adopt to any form of official social welfare system.

Zakaah is different from Tax. While Zakaah goes directly to the poor, tax may be used by the governing authority t provide Social welfare services or to provide public services.

While 2.5% sounds very little, it has changed the lives of millions of people throughout Islamic History. Furthermore 2.5% is the general example given when dealing with cash. There is a different ruling for grains, cattle etc.

I guess you missed the rest of the points I had made about Universal brotherhood. I had also mentioned the belief in Only One God, which is the bases of Islam, all people are born equal, a white is not superior to a black, rich is not superior to a poor, strong is not superior to a week, the criteria for judgment in the sight of God is righteousness, 5 daily obligatory congregational prayers, fasting in the month of Ramadhaan, enjoining good forbidding evil, zakaah etc., these are the elements of universal brotherhood in Islam.

Islam is not about picking and choosing to ones taste. Its a whole way of life. We do not change Islam to suit our needs, rather we mold ourselves to comply with the laws of God. That is what Islam is.

Brother Gordon, if you are really interested in learning more about Universal Brotherhood then I would recommend the public lecture by Dr. Zakir Naik. I have created a play list on youtube for you. The link is given below:

Universal Brotherhood - Dr. Zakir Naik

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=E3F91CFEE3D68EFB



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hey arshie,

thanks for your 'teaching' on islam, some of your statements sure enlightened me in a way,

now i know this is quite a silly question, but how come that some arabs themselves seem to misinterpret or falsely 'translate' words of quran so movies like fitna, regardless how stupid and biased they are, can be made? unless you're going to oppose that there are no islam(ist)ic terrorists in the world ;))

also, you merely referred to islamistic terrorists as a sort of black sheep, that make part of every society, which i agree with you totally on, but how come there is simply so many of them? in other words, what is in your personal opinion a percentage of 'good' muslims and 'bad' muslims?

last, bit ironic question i admit, if you say that in the eyes of allah all men are created equal, how come gays have such a bad prospect, and not just in netherland?

thanks for your time,

sinc.glassworx

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Brother Palicak,

I appreciate your honesty in questioning. However, I wonder if you have watched the rebuttal video to Fitna that exposes the fabrications and delibrate distortions that Fitna made. It is not the deviated Muslims who misinterpret in Fitna, rather, It was Wilders who made up false translations and juxtaposed them over the videos. The link to the video is provided below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DAerxKYipU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJCSVK7fn1g

To answer your question about the numerous number of Muslim Terrorists please go through the following links:

Is Terrorism a Mulslim Monopoly?
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=44865CB178FBF651
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3966492/Is-Terrorism-a-Muslim-Monopoly

All human beings are created equal, sinless and pure. They are influenced by their parents and society. And when they willingly disobey the commands of God, that becomes a sin, and every person is accountable for his own deeds. As for your Question about Homosexuality, please read the following link

http://www.islamic.org.uk/homosex.html

Thanks

Arshie

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NOTHING in Fitna is a lie or a fabrication. Wilders presented news footage, much of which was photographed by the supporters and perpetrators of the terrorist acts.

Deception in Islam:

http://www.muslimhope.com/DeceptionInIslam.htm

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Brother MinorSmith,

I struggled quite hard to accept your statement "NOTHING in Fitna is a lie or a fabrication". But logic and evidence goes contrary to your claim. Please watch these videos in case you missed them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DAerxKYipU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJCSVK7fn1g

Al-Quran 21:18 - When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes. For falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.

Peace be to everyone who is in search of truth.

Arshie

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Islam is not about picking and choosing to ones taste. Its a whole way of life. We do not change Islam to suit our needs, rather we mold ourselves to comply with the laws of God. That is what Islam is.

Dear Arshie

Now that is an extremely interesting and revealing statement. Are there parts of Islam that you find distasteful? Are there aspects of Islam that run counter to your needs? There must, be for otherwise you would have not written what you did.

I wonder if these needs you have are purely physical or artistic or are they intellectual. In other words do you wish that, every now and then, you could have a glass of wine with dinner and skip the evening prayer? Or do you wish that you could be an artist and paint a picture of a pretty girl? Or does it bother you that there are books and ideas that forbidden to you?

How have you molded yourself to conform with Islam? What have you given up? I find this fascinating.


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Dear Gordon,

There is a difference between need and desire. While need is a necessity, human desires have see no bounds, and therefore need to be restrained through divine revelation for a fruitful functioning of the individual and the society.

The literal meaning of Islam is "to submit ones own will to the will of One True God". Only those who practice as such can comprehend what does being at peace with The Creator, the creation and ones own self feels like. There is no greater pride apart from submitting ones own will to the will of One True God, the Master, Creator, Sustainer, Cherisher of all the worlds!

Best Regards

Arshie

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Hi Arshie, sorry for the tardy response (busy with work). You’ve raised many issues which I’d like to get to, but to try to keep this manageable I’ll only focus on a couple of issues to begin with that we can clear up. Islam is clearly not perfect. Of course, all religious people like to think that their religion is 100% perfect, but any dispassionate assessment reveals otherwise. For example, if you were going to invent a perfect religion for a species of people found on, say, Mars, would you have a chapter in your “holy” book entitled ‘Spoils of War/ Booty’? (See chapter 8 of the Qur'an) Would you invent verses by your "God" saying things such as:

"I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.” Qur'an 8:12.
[This is one of the quotes used by certain Muslims to justify the beheading of captives in the present day.]

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem." Qur'an 9:5.
[Note the inherent aggression here - the tribe can wait till a time of their choosing to fight, hence they are clearly not under attack. This is the quote used by Osama bin Laden in his murderous fatwa - "to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it..." - see http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1998.html]

"Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame...." Qur'an 9:14.

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Qur'an 9:29.
[Under Islam, Jews and Christians had three choices: convert to Islam, or retain their religion and pay a special tax - the Jizya, or fight. Pagans and atheists had two choices - Islam or the sword.]

"Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain… Then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme"
Qur’an 9:111
[i.e. to kill and be killed is the highest achievement.]

"Strike off the heads of the disbelievers and after making a wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives." Qur'an 47:4.
[This is another quote from the Quran which influences Muslims who behead their captives.]
Perhaps to understand the outrageous disgrace of those verses, you could imagine that atheists had written them with Muslims as the target - e.g. "fight and slay the Muslims wherever ye find them" etc. I'm sure you agree these verses are extremely regrettable to say the least. Further on inventing a perfect religion, would you describe your “prophet” doing the things that Muhammad does in the hadith - ordering the execution of apostates, the execution of homosexuals, starting wars, ordering that he keep the spoils of his wars, supporting slavery, having women stoned to death, hacking off women's hands, marrying a 6 yr old girl, ordering floggings, and having people tortured by branding them in the eyes? Muhammad's behavior was not even "good" for those times - eg centuries before Muhammad, Jesus was reported speaking against stonings.

Finally, if you were inventing a perfect religion for all the people of Mars, to be used for all time, would you go on and on about primitive tribes fighting each other in the middle of nowhere at an ancient time in history? I don't think so. Clearly, Islam - like other religions - is an invention of the tribes of the time. Apart from incitement to murder, the Qur'an also has verses about the natural world which are demonstrably false, and which I'll detail next time.

I want to stress that modern Muslims didn't invent Islam, and were raised in their religion without choice, and are of course as inherently intelligent and decent as any other random group of people. There are practising Muslims who want to reform Islam – like the Muslim writer Ziauddin Sardar (at http://www.newstatesman.com/200302170039) who notes:
"The problem with all varieties of Islam as it is practised today…is that it has lost its humanity. Our religion has become a monster that devours all that is most humane and open-minded…. Islam cannot survive as a static faith, buried in history. It was always meant to be a dynamic world-view, adjusting to change…It requires individual believers and societies to exert themselves and to reinterpret the Koran and the life of the Prophet Muhammad.
And the Muslim author Irshad Manji writes at http://www.irshadmanji.com/the-book
"what this book hammers home is that only in Islam today is literalism mainstream….My question for non-Muslims is equally basic: Will you succumb to the intimidation of being called "racists," or will you finally challenge us Muslims to take responsibility for our role in what ails Islam today?
I will detail the specific areas of reform Islam needs to address next time, and I have views as to how this reform can be undertaken without hurt to pride. I want to finish by correcting you on your claim that Islam doesn’t preach the execution of apostates. Dr.Yusuf Al-Qaradawi - Head of the European Council for Fatwa and Research and President of the International Union for Muslim Scholars - writes at http://www.islamonline.net/English/contemporary/2006/04/article01c.sht ml - see paragraph 9:
"the four main schools of jurisprudence (Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi`i, and Hanbali) as well as the other four schools of jurisprudence (the four Shi ite schools of Az-Zaidiyyah, Al-Ithna-`ashriyyah, Al-Ja`fariyyah, and Az-Zaheriyyah) agree that apostates must be executed.
That is, all 8 schools of Islamic jurisprudence preach the execution of these of our fellow citizens.

The reformer Dr. Muhammad Salim Al-'Awwa (professor of Islamic jurisprudence and comparative law in the Islamic studies department at King Saud University, Saudi Arabia and member of the International Union for Muslim Scholars) notes at http://www.islamonline.net/English/contemporary/2006/04/article01d.sht ml
(see paragraphs 1 & 2)
"The dominant opinion in Islamic jurisprudence considers apostasy to be a crime punishable by the prescribed death penalty...the relevant penalty in Shari`ah must be inflicted upon the perpetrator of the crime, and it is not to be pardoned or commuted in any way."
The current Islamic teaching is arrived at by the ulema in this way:
Qur’an verse 9:74 They swear by Allah that they said nothing (wrong), yet they did say the word of disbelief, and did disbelieve after their Surrender (to Allah)…If they repent it will be better for them; and if they turn away, Allah will punish them with a grievous penalty in this life and in the Hereafter
and hadith such as these from Bukhari which expand on the topic by detailing the "grievous penalty":
Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
Narrated 'Ikrima: Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17:
Narrated 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."
I want to discuss some of the other issues you’ve raised another time - such as your claim that apostasy is indeed tantamount to treason - but for now I'll ask you to keep in mind that the quote you attribute to Madeleine Albright (which I’d like a link to so that I can read the context of her comments) says nothing whatsoever about whether terrorism is justified. Remember that two wrongs don’t make a right.

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[deleted]

Brother Johntwest,

You have quoted partial and out of context verses from Holy Quran in exactly the same manner as Mr. Wilders did. Watch the video that exposes the concoctions of Mr Wilders, some of them are the same as yours.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DAerxKYipU

Following is the refutation to your claims:

Al-Quran 8:12 (you quoted this verse incomplete)
When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.

Here Allah commands the Angels to help the believers agianst the disbelievers in the battle of Badr. In this battle Muslims numbered 300 to 317 with a couple of horses and few camels. Muslims were equipped with very light weaponry. The disbelievers of Makkah were 1000 in number, they were full and heavily armed.

At the time of war it is quite natural for a leader of the army to instill fear in the hearts of the opponent. "Then smite the necks" is the equivalent of shoot to kill, standard in every armed battle. Ibn Kathir writes about this verse in his famous Tafsir Ibn Kathir:

Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said, "In the aftermath of Badr, the people used to recognize whomever the angels killed from those whom they killed, by the wounds over their necks, fingers and toes, because those parts had a mark as if they were branded by fire."

Your quote of 9:5 is incomplete and out of context without the 4 preceding verses which state that the disbelievers with whom you had made the treaty have broken it (by killing innocent civilians) and now its war time. In 9:5 God is telling that in the battle field kill them where you find them.

And then you forgot to quote 9:6 which state that if they seek asylum then don't only give it to them but escort them to a place of safety.

You quoted 9:14 and left out 9:12-13, which establishes the context.. When read in context it would say:

9:12 And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist.

9:13 Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first? What! Fear ye them? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers

9:14 Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them, and He will heal the breasts of folk who are believers.

Regarding your objection about 9:29. Sovereignty belongs to God alone. The social, political, economic, legal and all other domains of life except personal faith are to be governed according to God's law. I do not know from where you concluded that its sword or Islam for the pagans. Please quote reference.

In 9:111 sacrificing ones wealth and self for the sake of God and not to cause oppression is the highest achievement. Ibn Kathir states about this:

Allah states that He has compensated His believing servants for their lives and wealth -- if they give them up in His cause -- with Paradise. This demonstrates Allah's favor, generosity and bounty, for He has accepted the good that He already owns and bestowed, as a price from His faithful servants. Al-Hasan Al-Basri and Qatadah commented, "By Allah! Allah has purchased them and raised their worth.'' Shimr bin `Atiyyah said, "There is not a Muslim but has on his neck a sale that he must conduct with Allah; he either fulfills its terms or dies without doing that.'' He then recited this Ayah. This is why those who fight in the cause of Allah are said to have conducted the sale with Allah, meaning, accepted and fulfilled his covenant. Allah's statement, (They fight in Allah's cause, so they kill and are killed.) indicates that whether they were killed or they kill the enemy, or both, then Paradise will be theirs.

Your quote of 47:4 is incomplete and tries to imply that Muslims should kill non-Muslims where they find them. This is a clear lie. This verse is talking about killing in battle as can be seen by reading the complete verse as follows:

47:4 Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain.

You have quoted writers with very poor standing among academicians. It is very common these days to get very good media coverage just by writing anything against Islam, whether true or false, it doesn't matter, the criteria is that it should be Islamophobic. This is exactly what the people you have quoted are doing.

Criticism of Manji's work comes from within Islam and from secular sources. Some of Manji's critics say that she goes too far in her criticisms of Islam and Muslims. They say there is a double standard between her criticism of Muslim states and what Bina Shah describes as her willingness to provide "a million excuses for the excesses committed against the Palestinians." [24] Others have noted that she ignores the last 25 years of Israeli scholarship, based on declassified Israeli archives, which reveal that Israel engaged in ethnic cleansing of Arabs in order to attain a majority in present-day Israel.

As'ad Abu Khalil, political scientist at California State University, Stanislaus, accuses Manji of disproportionately targeting Muslims, ignoring the peripheral context within which most Muslims live, and not applying the same critiques to other groups, notably those with allegedly more power in society such as conservative Christians. Abu Khalil also asserts Manji is not trained in Islamic scholarship, history, or the Arabic language, and as such ignores the multiplicity of debates and traditions within Islam.

Tarek Fatah, a liberal Canadian Muslim, wrote in his critical review of The Trouble With Islam that the book "is aimed at making Muslim haters feel secure in their thinking." However, Fatah recently said that he regrets his remarks, and that he was unfair in slamming Manji's book. He now says that she was "right about the systematic racism in the Muslim world" and that "there were many redeeming points in her memoir, which I overlooked in my rush to judge it."

Khaled Almeena, editor of the Arab News in Saudi Arabia, complains that "This fraudulent book has now become a guide to Islam.

Reform is required with things that are imperfect. As far as Islam is concerned, it is perfect and does not need any one to reform it. But if you are talking about reforming the Muslims then I am with you. Muslims should start living by the Quran and Sunnah and stop fooling themselves.

As far as ex-Muslims are concerned they are free to practice their belief or disbelief in God. But if they are responsible for the endangerment or death of any innocent human being, Muslim or non-Muslim alike, should they be pardoned just because they have renounced Islam?

Justifying the death of over a million innocent children is terrorism to any sensible mind.

This is the link to the statement of Madeline Albright that justifies terrorism against innocent Iraqi Muslim children.

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1084

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Hi Arshie, I realize that many people feel their identities are tied up in their religions, and thinking dispassionately regarding their religions can be particularly difficult. I am an atheist and so I acknowledge that thinking dispassionately about things is easier, as I don’t have as much to lose from changing my mind. And although it can hurt my ego if I realize I was wrong in some respect, I value the truth even higher than my ego (!).

You didn’t answer any of the questions I asked you in my last post. If you were going to write a “holy” book for a perfect religion to be used by all people for all time, would you go on and on about fighting ancient tribes, and chopping people’s heads off? Would you write a chapter entitled ‘Spoils of War/Booty’ (chapter 8 of the Qur’an)?

You must see from a dispassionate point of view, the Qur’an (as with all other religious books) was clearly written by men of the time. Why would a "god" - presumably wanting to speak to all of humankind forever - go on about chopping people's heads off and keeping the spoils of war?!

Also, you didn’t address the fact that I presented to you that Islam currently preaches the execution of apostates. Surely you must agree that this is wrong. Look at the photos of ex-Muslims at http://www.ex-muslim.org.uk/indexMembers.html and ask yourself if these people should be threatened in this way.

Apart from the violent tribalism contained in the Qur’an, and the focus on the spoils of war etc., there are also verses about the natural world which are demonstrably false.

Qur’an 96.2 "Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood"

This is completely false, as can be demonstrated in any laboratory. As you can imagine, Muhammad’s tribe didn’t have microscopes back then, and so the writers didn’t know anything about the egg and spermatozoa.

Qur'an 27.18 "Till, when they reached the Valley of the Ants, an ant exclaimed: ‘O ants! Enter your dwellings lest Solomon and his armies crush you, unperceiving.'"

Talking ants referring to Solomon!? Of course, this seems embarrassing to us now, but in those ancient days people – including many intelligent people - had a variety of delusional ideas about the world.

Regarding the verses of the Qur'an which I quoted last time, I have to say you’ve misunderstood them and their context (not intentionally).

First, let’s focus on the part of the Qur’an used by Osama bin Laden to justify deliberately targeting innocent civilians for murder. You incorrectly claim that in context the verse is no problem, and you seem to have invented a story that the preceding verses talk about disbelievers killing innocent civilians. At the risk of inducing reader fatigue, I need to correct you by quoting all of the chapter preceding Bin Laden's favored verse. The context is as follows:

Qur’an - Chapter 9 'Al-Tawba'
9.1
“Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty.”

9.2
“Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him.”

9.3
“And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve,”

9.4
“Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).”

9.5
“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and pay the poor-rate, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.”
I hope this clears that up! You see, what Muhammad is saying is that if you made a treaty with him, you could be safe for 4 months. But “when the forbidden months are past” you get slaughtered – unless you converted to Muhammad’s new religion. Imagine if that was put another way – unless Muslims make a treaty with atheists the Muslims will be murdered. And after the treaty time is up, if Muslims don’t reject their religion, they must be slaughtered! The way some Muslims today see it, non-Muslims don't have a valid treaty with them.

Try to consider this without bias (as if you’d come from another planet and knew nothing of Earth’s religions). Surely you’ve been brought up to know that this kind of language is grossly irresponsible and immoral to say the least.

In any case, I’m sure we can agree that it is a fact that Osama bin Laden uses this verse from the Qur’an as justification for targeting innocent civilians for murder. I’m sure we can also agree this verse can reasonably be read - by people who believe the Qur'an is relevant to us today - in such a way as to lead people to think that murdering non-Muslims is acceptable, and as such the verse is extremely regrettable.

Now, I think we agree that the wider context or purpose of the Qur’an is that it is meant as an eternal manual and manifesto about how best to live – not meant as a simple catalog of the wars and atrocities committed by a little primitive tribe in the middle of nowhere in ancient times. So, as a manifesto of how we should live, what should an unbiased person make of the eternally instructive quote that so influences al-Qaeda? I think you know the answer that any civilized humanitarian would give.

I want to stress that other religions have outrageous and immoral crimes promoted in their “holy” books also – such as in the Bible. But these religions have reformed to a point where (unlike Islam) they do not preach the execution of anyone. So, for example, the burning of heretics and witches ended centuries ago, and the persecution of homosexuals has softened to a point where gays can now be appointed ministers in certain Christian (and recently Jewish) sects. Unfortunately Islam still preaches the execution of these of our fellow citizens - but this can change.

For the moment let’s see if we can agree on some things:
1. The Qur’an is meant to be eternally instructive, and so the context of verses talking about murdering others is meant to be applicable today – and isn’t meant to be just referring to killing the tribes attacked by the Muslims of 1,400 years ago.
2. These verses are indeed still influential – for example with al-Qaeda, and the Muslims who celebrate their terrorist attacks.
3. Apostates are threatened with murder by Islam (whether that’s a good thing or a bad thing I’ll discuss next time).

(Btw, thanks for the link re Madeleine Albright – what a disgrace! I researched some more about her comments, and apparently she later recanted, writing in her 2003 autobiography “I must have been crazy; I should have answered the question by reframing it and pointing out the inherent flaws in the premise behind it. … As soon as I had spoken, I wished for the power to freeze time and take back those words. My reply had been a terrible mistake, hasty, clumsy, and wrong. … I had fallen into a trap and said something that I simply did not mean. That is no one’s fault but my own.” Despite this attempt to redress her seemingly psychopathic coldness, I still find it hard to believe that someone like her had any position of responsibility back in 1996.

In any case, the sanctions imposed by the United Nations Security Council (which I disagree with) were initially imposed to get Saddam Hussein to withdraw from his invasion of Kuwait and his killing of Muslims there - they weren't imposed by Albright. For balance on Albright, keep in mind that she is credited with being a driving force in getting NATO to bomb Christian Yugoslavia in 1999 to save the lives of hundreds of thousands of Muslims. Serbian Christians have not retaliated with suicide bombings, and nor did China – whose embassy was accidently bombed in that war. Ironically, Muslims are the ones who celebrated the terrorist attacks on the US only 2 years later. The difference is not that Christians or the Chinese are better people than Muslims, but they are raised with a different ideology.)

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Dear JohnTwest,

Congratulations to you on being an Atheist, as you have Masha Allah (Praise be to God) testified to one half of Islamic testimony. i.e. "There is no deity worthy of worship". I pray that Allah guides you to the other half of testimony ("except Allah"), Ameen.

Your objection to writing a chapter entitled ‘Spoils of War/Booty’ is based on a wrong preconception that a human being wrote Quran. Quran is a divine revelation and it is the word of God. Who is the Creator Sustainer and Cherisher of all that exists. He Creates what He Wills and He Chooses what He Wills. There are 114 chapters in the Quran that touch on every aspect of human life in order that people lead a peaceful personal and social life. Among the subject matters covered in these chapters are: Repentance, Stories of the past prophets from Adam to Muhammad (peace be up0n them all), Believers, Wisdom, Guiding Light, Angels, Jinn, Human Beings, Women, Sovereignty, Victory, Haggling, Divorce, Disbelievers, Sincerity etc. The complete list is available here:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

Since wars are an inherent part of human civilization, Allah has reveled His divine wisdom on how to deal in such situations. The bottom line of His guidance is "Do not oppressed and do not be oppressed".

Seems like you have no knowledge about warfare and history. If you happen to go to war with a gun in your hand, try to chop someones head off with it! "Chopping the head off is the equivalent of shoot to kill". Try telling an army general to command his troops "Not to Shoot and Kill in battle".

If 9:5 is as harsh as you claim it is then how does 9:6 apply in this context?

Regards

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Since wars are an inherent part of human civilization, Allah has reveled His divine wisdom on how to deal in such situations.

Why are wars an “inherent part of human civilization”? Did Allah will it? Are wars part of Allah’s plan? Are wars pleasing to Allah. Why didn't Allah tell us how to prevent wars rather than win them? And if Allah did tell us how to win wars why are the muslims always getting their butts kicked?








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Hi Arshie, you asked me about 9:6 of the Qur’an – it reads: “And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not”. It is understandable when read in context with the previous verse “…fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and pay the poor-rate, then open the way for them…”.

The consistent message is that unless people accept Muhammad as the ultimate "prophet", and accept his new religion, then they will be killed. Many Muslims today of course believe that “peace” can only come to the world when the 80% of the world’s population who are not Muslim convert to Islam. But as you can imagine, the more that current Islamic teachings are exposed, the more disgusted non-Muslims become (with Islam – not with Muslims). Muslims too are leaving Islam in record numbers - so many that the President of Iran is looking at enforcing execution for anyone who leaves Islam (see http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Religion/?id=1.0.1988866222). According to the story, one million Iranians have left Islam over the past 5 years.

You also seem to be claiming that the chapter of the Qur’an known as ‘The Spoils of War/Booty’ is some kind of early Geneva Convention concern about justice. In fact, the first verse again reveals much about Muhammad’s motivation in inventing his new religion, and his private profiteering out of his wars.

Qur’an 8:1
“They ask thee (O Muhammad) of the spoils of war. Say: The spoils of war belong to Allah and the Messenger, so keep your duty to Allah, and adjust the matter of your difference, and obey Allah and His messenger, if ye are (true) believers.”
"The Messenger" is of course Muhammad. I don't think that dictating that you get to keep the "spoils" of your wars is a very moral thing to do. Further illumination about Muhammad's teachings on how he should profit by thieving from his enemies is clear from the hadith from Sahih Muslim.
Book 19, # 4328:
A hadith has been narrated by Mus'ab b. Sa'd who heard it from his father as saying: My father took a sword from Khums and brought it to the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and said: Grant it to me. He refused. At this Allah revealed (the Qur'anic verse): "They ask thee concerning the spoils of war. Say: The spoils of war are for Allah and the Apostle".

Book 19, # 4346:
It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said: If you come to a township (which has surrendered without a formal war) and stay therein, you have a share (that will be in the form of an award) in (the properties obtained from) it. If a township disobeys Allah and His Messenger (and actually fights against the Muslims) one-fifth of the booty seized therefrom is for Allah and His Apostle and the rest is for you.

Outside of warfare, Muhammad still had an eye for theft.

Book 38, # 4442:
Narrated Al-Bara' ibn Azib:
I met my uncle who was carrying a standard. I asked him: Where are you going? He said: The Apostle of Allah (pbuh) has sent me to a man who has married his father's wife. He has ordered me to cut off his head and take his property.
Well, so much for the Geneva Convention! You ask if I know anything of warfare or history. I certainly know that there are moral ways to fight enemies, and they don’t include thieving and looting from townspeople. But Muhammad was not a moral man – not for his time, and certainly not for ours.

I think when reading these stories we should keep in mind what the Muslim Professor Ziauddin Sardar writes (at http://www.newstatesman.com/200302170039) “...Muhammad was only a man. What made him human was that he could make mistakes and he was a product of his own time.” With this in mind I believe Islam can look at revising some of its teachings taken from the actions and sayings of Muhammad.

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Dear Johntwest,

You said "The consistent message is that unless people accept Muhammad as the ultimate "prophet", and accept his new religion, then they will be killed. ". I must say this is a very creative interpretation on your part.

The fighting with pagans in 9:5-6 that you are referring to is not to convert the pagan to Islam. It is fight those who prevent the message to be conveyed to masses and those who persecute the believers. The purpose of this fighting is to create an environment to freely spread the message. Then whosoever believes it is for his own good and who soever disbelieves that there is only one God, it is for his own doom.

Verse 8:1 was revealed after badr. Among numerous Ahadith:

Imam Ahmad recorded that Abu Umamah said, "I asked `Ubadah about Al-Anfal and he said, `It was revealed about us, those who participated in (the battle of) Badr, when we disputed about An-Nafl and our dispute was not appealing. So Allah took Al-Anfal from us and gave it to the Messenger of Allah . The Messenger divided it equally among Muslims.'''

Imam Ahmad recorded that Abu Umamah said that `Ubadah bin As-Samit said, "We went with the Messenger of Allah to the battle of Badr. When the two armies met, Allah defeated the enemy and some of us pursued them inflicting utter defeat and casualties. Another group of us came to the battlefield collecting the spoils of war. Another group surrounded the Messenger of Allah , so that the enemy could not attack him suddenly. When it was night and the various army groups went back to our camp, some of those who collected the spoils said, `We collected it, so none else will have a share in it.' Those who went in pursuit of the enemy said, `No, you have no more right to it than us. We kept the enemy away from the war spoils and defeated them.' Those who surrounded the Messenger of Allah to protect him said, `You have no more right to it than us, we surrounded the Messenger of Allah for fear that the enemy might conduct a surprise attack against him, so we were busy.' The Ayah, 8:1 (They ask you about Al-Anfal (the spoils of war). Say: "Al-Anfal are for Allah and the Messenger.'' So fear Allah and settle all matters of difference among you.) was revealed and the Messenger of Allah divided the Anfal equally between Muslims.'''


Sure one fifth of the spoils are for Allah and His Messenger, but what did he do with his share? He gave ot to the poor and needy. If he wanted he could have led a luxurious life with all the money he could gather. In numerous ahadith his lifestyle is described. Asummary of which is as follows:

Muhammad was a very simple person all his life. He was very unceremonious and informal in his habits. Even when he was the ruler of a state, he ate whatever he was given, wore coarse cloth, and sat on the floor, bare ground or a mat without any hesitation, alone or in the company of others. He ate bread made from coarse flour and even spent days living only on dates. He wore simple clothes and did not like display or show. He liked simplicity and informality in everything.

Worldly things meant little to the Prophet. Ibn Mas`ud said that Allah's Messenger slept on a reed mat and got up with the mark of it on his body. He said, "O Allah's Messenger! I wish you would order us to spread something out for you and make something." The Prophet replied, "What have I to do with the world? I am like a rider who rests for a while under the shade of a tree, then goes off and leaves it." `Ubaydullah ibn Muhsin reported Allah's Messenger as saying, "If anyone among you is secure in mind (also, among his family or in his house) in the morning, healthy in body, and has food for the day, it is as though the whole world has been brought into his possession." Abu Hurayrah reported Allah's Messenger as saying, "Look at those who are inferior to you and do not look at those who are superior to you, for that is more likely to keep you from despising Allah's Favor on you."

The Prophet abstained from ostentatious living. He often wore rough clothes. His bed was sometimes made of a rough blanket, sometimes of skin filled with palm fibers, and sometimes of ordinary coarse cloth. In the ninth year of Hijrah, when the Islamic state had extended from Yemen to Syria, its ruler had only one bed and one dry water-skin. `A'ishah reported that when he died, there was nothing in the house to eat except some barley.

Once `Umar entered Muhammad's house and noticed the state of the furnishings in it. Muhammad himself had only one sheet of cloth round him to cover the lower part of his body. There was one simple bed with one pillow filled with nut fiber. On one side of the room was some barley and in one corner near his feet was an animal skin. There were some water-skins hanging beside his bed. `Umar said that on seeing this tears came into his eyes. Allah's Messenger asked the reason for his tears. He replied, "O Allah's Messenger! Why shouldn't I cry! The strings of the bed have left marks on your body. This is a small room with all your furniture, I can see what there is. The Byzantine Emperor and the Persian Emperor enjoy luxurious living while you, the Messenger of Allah and the Chosen One, live like this." He said, "Ibn al-Khattab! Don't you like that they choose this world and we choose the Hereafter?"

In short, Muhammad lived and liked a simple life. He taught his Companions, through his personal example, not to be ostentatious and materialistic.


If you can find any moral way of dealing with enemies that is better than that of Islam then let me know about it. Before you talk about geneva convention, please make sure you cross check that the rules mentioned in geneva convention are not already described in the ahadith (which is ofcourse 1400 year older than geneva convention).


During his life, Muhammad gave various injunctions to his forces and adopted practices toward the conduct of war. The most important of these were summarized by Muhammad's companion, Abu Bakr, in the form of ten rules for the Muslim army:[8]
“ Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone. ”

These injunctions were honored by the second caliph Umar, during whose reign (584 – 644) important Muslim conquests took place.[9] These principles were also honoured during the Crusades, as exemplified by sultans such as Saladin and al-Kamil. For example, after al-Kamil defeated the Franks during the Crusades, Oliverus Scholasticus praised the Islamic laws of war, commenting on how al-Kamil supplied the defeated Frankish army with food:[10]

"Who could doubt that such goodness, friendship and charity come from God? Men whose parents, sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, had died in agony at our hands, whose lands we took, whom we drove naked from their homes, revived us with their own food when we were dying of hunger and showered us with kindness even when we were in their power."[11]

In addition during battle of Siffin Ali, the Caliph, said Islam does not permit Muslims to stop the supply of water to their enemy.[12]

The early Islamic treatises on international law from the 9th century onwards covered the application of Islamic ethics, Islamic economic jurisprudence and Islamic military jurisprudence to international law,[13] and were concerned with a number of modern international law topics, including the law of treaties; the treatment of diplomats, hostages, refugees and prisoners of war; the right of asylum; conduct on the battlefield; protection of women, children and non-combatant civilians; contracts across the lines of battle; the use of poisonous weapons; and devastation of enemy territory.[10]

[8] ^ Aboul-Enein and Zuhur, p. 22
[9] ^ Nadvi(2000), pg. 519
[10] ^ a b Judge Weeramantry, Christopher G. (1997), Justice Without Frontiers, Brill Publishers, pp. 136, ISBN 9041102418
[11] ^ Judge Weeramantry, Christopher G. (1997), Justice Without Frontiers, Brill Publishers, pp. 136–7, ISBN 9041102418
[12] ^ Encyclopaedia of Islam (2005), p.204


Muhammad is the Last and Final Prophet and Messenger of God who came with a sime message "There is no Diety worthy of worship except God". Whose who accept this fact will have an everlasting life in paradise and whose who reject this fact will be eternally doomed to the torment of hellfire.

Keeping this fact in mind. Islam is a perfect way of life. And things that are perfect do not need any revision. But yes! Muslims do need to improve themselves and start following Al-Quran and Sunnah.

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Dear Reade-1,

It seems that you think that no wars were fought in the world before the last Prophet of Islam arrived on the scene.

you said - "Why didn't Allah tell us how to prevent wars rather than win them? And if Allah did tell us how to win wars why are the Muslims always getting their butts kicked?"

You are questioning and answering your own whims here. Muslims never claim that Al-Quran teaches how to win wars. In Islam fighting is to remove oppression. So if you think that fighting to remove oppression is wrong then so be it.

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In Islam fighting is to remove oppression. So if you think that fighting to remove oppression is wrong then so be it.

Dear Arshie

When faced with oppression men like Martin Luther King and Mohandas Gandhi where able to find a way to win without resorting to violence. Do such men of nonviolence every look to the Koran for inspiration? No, they do not. Have the Muslims ever produced even one champion of nonviolence? No, they have not.


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Speaking of non-violence. The champion of non-violence and the founder of Indian nation (which I am proud of) Sri. Mohan Das Karamchand Gandhi (Mahatma Gandhi), speaking on the character of Muhammad, (pbuh) says in (Young India):

"I wanted to know the best of one who holds today's undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind....I became more than convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to this friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the 2nd volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of the great life."

Who should people believe? The champion of non-violence? Or you? Mr. Reade-1?

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If Gandhi felt that way about Islam why wasn't he a Muslim? Why wasn’t Muhammad great enough to sway a man like Gandhi to Islam? When you die do you think you’ll see Gandhi is Islamic heaven?





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Gandhi ji respected Islam and its prophets. Not to accept Islam was Sri. Gandhi's choice.

Have you forgotten “La Ikraha fid Deen”. [Surah. Baqarah, 2 : 256]

That matter is between him and Allah. Nobody knows what Gandhi ji held in his heart. Allah can forgive everything except Shirk (associating partners with Him). So we will know where me, you and Gandhi ji are on the day of resurrection.

Muhammad's (peace be upon him) own uncle Abu-Talib did bot accept Islam. He loved him so dearly and protected him from the Quraish all his life. Who more could understand and respect him more than his uncle did. Yet he died as a mushrik (associating partners with God). Prophets responsibility is to convey the message. Guidance is in the hands of Allah. He guides whom he wills. Whosoever accepts it is for his own good. And whosoever rejects is for his own doom.

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Hi Arshie, I think you are a bright person, and not averse to doing research, and this is why I’m interested in discussing Islam with you. Now, I’m prepared to change my mind on anything I currently hold to be true, and given your natural abilities I expect the same from you. With this in mind I think you need to reconsider the way you evaluate Islam. You seem to be starting from the point that it’s ‘perfect’, and so whatever faults I present (or that reformist Muslims might present) you simply cannot consider them logically – though you’re obviously capable of doing so.

Case in point: I presented a verse from the Qur’an proving that it teaches that if non-Muslims don’t have a treaty with you, you can kill them; and that if they do have a treaty with you, then when the treaty expires, non-Muslims better convert to Islam or suffer. I’ve given you a link to Osama bin Laden’s fatwa quoting this exact verse to justify his call for killing non-Muslims everywhere (see first paragraph at http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1998.html) . You responded with "I must say this is a very creative interpretation on your part.” On my part?

How many times to you want me to post the relevant verses?

Qur’an 9.5
“But when the forbidden months are past [i.e. THE TREATY], then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and pay the poor-rate, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.”
This is explicit and clear. Now, you can claim that this teaching is a good thing – that given that Islam is ‘perfect’, you should be able to persecute those who don’t appreciate its perfections. But you cannot claim that this verse is calling for peaceful co-existence, and toleration of differences. In fact, a scholar you seem to approve of – Dr. Zakir Naik – specifically argues against tolerating different ideas. See http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=6jYUL7eBdHg&feature=related where Naik says
“we know for sure that only Islam is a true religion in the eyes of God. In 3:85 [see http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html] it is mentioned that God will never accept any religion other than Islam. Therefore knowing that Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. As far as the…building of churches or temples is concerned, how can we allow this when their religion is wrong? And when their worshipping is also wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our country.”

Referring to how non-Muslims allow Muslims to build Mosques in non-Muslim countries, Naik tries to explain this strange (to him) behavior in this way:

“...they are not sure [of their non-Muslim religions] – if they have been sure why should they allow wrong things to be preached?...They are not sure about religious truths, thus we are trying to get them to the right path of Islam. Therefore we propagate our religion to the non-Muslims”
It is clear that Naik – and Islam – don’t understand the concept of decency to others, of tolerating the differences of others. I have heard other Muslim leaders say that non-Muslims must deep-down think Islam is right, otherwise why would they allow so many Muslims into their countries, knowing how Muslims disrespect them? Good question. The answer lies of course in civilized ideas of decency that puts our common humanity ahead of religious differences - ideas so far in advance of Islam that many Muslim leaders cannot conceive of them.

I have to say that from my studies, Islam is the most psychopathic ideology I’ve ever encountered, and I guess this isn’t surprising since according to the Qur’an and hadith its inventor Muhammad was an invader warrior, a murderer, a rapist, a slave-owner, a torturer, a thief, a liar, a hypocrite, and a pedophile. Psychopaths find it impossible to empathize with others – to see a situation from another’s point of view. This is the reason that Muhammad’s own religion Islam is so profoundly abusive of others (e.g. of the Jews), and utterly disrespectful of the rights of others (e.g. the Jews and other people whose lands he invaded, Christians, atheists, pagans etc.).

With this in mind, this is the third time I’m going to ask you this question: How would you feel if atheists (or Christians, or Jews) adhered to a manifesto which said “fight and slay the MUSLIMS wherever ye find them” ? Please answer, if you don’t mind. (Just so you know, I would find such an ideological position outrageous and obscene.)

(Btw, I’m not suggesting that you are a psychopath, or that you are unable to imagine an experience from another person’s point of view. I believe that like most Muslims - and non-Muslims - you are a good person with a concern for justice for all. On Gandhi, you’ve misunderstood reade-1’s interesting point. For an intelligent article about Gandhi and Islam, please see http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/HinduWoman40718.htm)

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The most popular verse quoted is the fabled Verse of the Sword: "Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them: seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)." (9:5) On the surface, this verse seems to confirm Islam's perceived intolerance of non-Muslims. It may even lead one to conclude that all the talk about Islam being a religion of "peace" is a ruse, and that the real Islam is the violent.

For there to be any semblance of an intelligent and scholarly analysis of verses of the Qur'an, a full understanding of the Arabic language along with understanding of the context of the verses in question is an essential prerequisite. In fact, this must be the scholarly approach to the exegesis of any book of scripture, including the Hebrew and Christian Bibles. Volumes upon volumes have been written by numerous Islamic scholars, both classical and modern, that attempt to interpret the meaning of the over 6,000 verses of the Qur'an. Qur'anic exegesis is an academic discipline in itself, and it requires years of learning before a scholar is able to independently comment on Qur'anic scripture. Neither Islam's conservative critics, nor the "scholars" and "experts" they read and quote from in their writings, possess such knowledge. What they do is misquote, mistranslate, or quote Qur'anic verses out of context and use those misquotations as evidence for their claims. These tactics violate every rule of Scriptural Exegesis

When the infamouse "Verse of the Sword" is studied in its proper context, it becomes quite clear that the claim the Qur'an is violent is nothing more than smoke and mirrors. From the very beginning of his mission, the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was violently opposed by his people. At first, the Pagan Arabs simply ignored the Prophet's call and ridiculed his message. They quickly realized, however, that this tactic did not stop the flow of converts to Islam. The Meccans then turned to torture and repression of Muhammad and his companions to try to muffle his message, which was nothing more than the abadonment of the worship of idols for the worship of the One True God. Muhammad himself survived several assassination attempts. In one of these, a Meccan tried to crush the Prophet's head with a large boulder while he was praying at the Ka'abah, the holy shrine at Mecca. God, however, miraculously foiled the attempt and the Prophet was saved.

After 10 years of hardship, the Meccans finally expelled the Prophet to Medina, a city 200 miles to the north. Since they could not kill him, this was the only thing the Meccans could do to stop the Prophet's message. There, the inhabitants of Medina accepted Islam, and it became the first Islamic city-state with the Prophet Muhammad as its spiritual and political leader. While in Medina, the Meccan pagans did not relent in their hostilites against the Muslims. Now, however, many surrounding tribes also became hostile to Islam and joined in the Meccans' fight. Several battles were fought against the Muslims. These tribes also attempted to assassinate the Prophet on several occasions, as the Meccans tried a decade earlier.

It is in this violent context that verse 9:5 was revealed. The commandment to "slay the pagans wherever you find them" in verse 9:5 speaks of the hostile Arab tribes surrounding Medina. At every given chance, these tribes attacked the Muslims and killed as many of them as possible for no just cause.

Frequently, columnists and pundits who try to smear Islam quote verse 9:5 incompletely and out of context. The full verse reads as follows: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them: seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."

If one reads on in the ninth chapter, the reasons for "slaying the pagans" is clearly outlined: "Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is God Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!" (9:13) When sincere scholarship and exegesis is applied, it becomes quite clear that verse 9:5, and all others similar to it, is one of self-defense and not a carte blanche to kill all non-believers, as some would want us to believe.

complete articlke can be found at http://www.beliefnet.com/story/111/story_11172_2.html

Having said that. When Muslims are massacred in Palestine, Kashmir, Gujrat, Chechnya, China, Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. Are they supposed to sit hand on hand and do nothing to defend themselves or fight the oppressors or expel the occupiers? These verses would certainly have to be applied in such situations.

As for your objection to Islamic position on other faiths. Any act that calls people to associate partners with God is not acceptable.

“fight and slay the MUSLIMS wherever ye find them”


If such an unconditional law exists then it is certainly outrageous. And this is perhaps what the Crusaders implemented under the name of "Holy Wars". While Crusaders are known for massacring the entire populations of Muslims and Jewish cities, Saladdin let go whole christian populations with honor. Praise be to God! Quran does not have such blanket laws. Proper study of Quran in context reveals that such measures are to be taken in dire circumstances. It is only the make belief of a certain group to mislead the masses to believe otherwise.

In order to undermine the role of Muslims in Indian freedom movement You have posted a link to an article to by some anonymous writer with unknown academic credentials with no verifiable references and which is posted on a well known Muslim Hater website.

The article conveniently states that Gandhi ji experimented with Muslims had nothing to do with Indian Freedom Struggle. Unified Indian freedom movement against the tyrannical British rule dates back to before Gandhi ji was born. Gandhi ji was born in 1869. First United freedom struggle started 1857. Prior to that Aurangzeb fought against the British Occupiers during his reign (1658 - 1707).

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Muhammad's (peace be upon him) own uncle Abu-Talib did bot accept Islam. He loved him so dearly and protected him from the Quraish all his life. Who more could understand and respect him more than his uncle did. Yet he died as a mushrik (associating partners with God).

I wonder what Abu-Talib thought of Muhammad. Did Abu-Talib think that Muhammad was basically honest but mistaken? In other words did Abu-Talib think that Muhammad was delusional?

Or did Abu-Talib think that Muhammad was intentionally lying to gain power and influence? In other words did Abu-Talib think that Muhammad was a false profit?

In either case Abu-Talib knew Muhammad better than anyone who has lived during the last one thousand years and he was unwilling to become a muslim. That says a lot.



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Hi Arshie, there are many things I want to correct you on - most importantly your significant misunderstanding of history and of current world events. There are also other beliefs and statements of yours which I think are incorrect, and which I'll analyse in more detail another time. However, for brevity's sake, I'll focus on one issue at a time.

Regarding my earlier claims about Muhammad’s character, I want to apologize to you (and to any other Muslim reader) for any offense given – that was not my intention. I do genuinely believe what I wrote, and will substantiate my claims, but I am prepared to change my mind if you want to discuss Muhammad in more detail. To begin with, I’ll quote from a well-known and important event in Muhammad’s life - which in the one story demonstrates his aggression, his hypocrisy, and his penchant for theft, torture, murder, rape and his support for slavery. You might know this story from the many hadith which refer to different aspects of it – Muhammad's invasion of the land of the Jews of Khaibar (or Khaybar), his rape of Safiyya (Muhammad’s 11th “wife”), and Muhammad's torture and murder of Safiyya's actual husband Kinana. I’ll first quote from Ibn Ishaq’s biography of Muhammad – a complete copy of the biography, and the unabridged story can be read at http://web.archive.org/web/20040625103910/http://www.hraic.org/hadith/ ibn_ishaq.html#khaybar. The words in brackets [ ] are mine.

[Muhammad's aggression]
In the seventh year of the Hijra the apostle rode out with sixteen hundred followers on an expedition against the Jewish tribe of Khaybar, about one hundred miles distant...
“I (the prophet's servant, Anas) rode behind Abu Talha, so close that my foot touched that of the apostle of Allah. We met a few labourers going forth early to their work, bearing spades and baskets, and when they beheld the Apostle with his army they cried out and fled. The Apostle said "Allah Akbar! Khaybar will be destroyed.”

[refers to obtaining slaves]
The Apostle occupied the Jewish forts one after the other, taking prisoners as he went. Among these were Safiya, the wife of Kinana, the Khaybar chief, and two female cousins; the Apostle chose Safiya for himself. The other prisoners were distributed among the Muslims. Bilal brought Safiya to the apostle, and they passed the bodies of several Jews on the way. Safiya's female companions lamented and strewed dust on their heads…

[instructions for rape]
...Although the Apostle of Allah forbade this [donkey] flesh, he permitted consumption of horse flesh. He also declared, 'It is not lawful for a Believer to irrigate another man's harvest (to have intercourse with pregnant captives); nor shall any Believer have intercourse with a captive woman until she has been purified; neither shall a Believer ride a captured animal which has not been assigned to him and return it, emaciated, to the joint stock of plunder; neither shall he wear a captured garment and return it, worn out, to the stock of plunder.'

After the apostle of Allah had conquered the Khaybar forts and possessions, he arrived near the forts of al Watih and al-Sulalim, which were the last strongholds. These he besieged....After about ten days, the people realized the hopelessness of attempting to hold out; so they asked for peace and that their lives be spared. The apostle agreed, because he had already subdued all the other territory.

[torture and murder and theft]
Kinana, the husband of Safiya, had been guardian of the tribe's treasures, and he was brought before the Apostle, who asked where they were hidden. But Kinana refused to disclose the place. Then a Jew came who said, 'I have seen Kinana walk around a certain ruin every morning.' The Apostle asked Kinana, 'Art thou prepared to die if we find thou knewest where the treasure was?' And he replied, 'Yes.' So the Apostle ordered the ruin to be dug up, and some of the treasure was found. After that Kinana was asked again about the remainder, but he still refused to tell. The Apostle of Allah handed him over to al Zubayr, saying, 'Torture him until he tells what he knows', and al Zubayr kindled a fire on his chest so that he almost expired; then the Apostle gave him to Muhammad b. Maslama, who struck off his head.

[further theft of land etc.]
When the people of Fadak, a Jewish town nearby, heard what was taking place they sent emissaries to the Apostle to ask him to spare them and they would abandon to him all their property. He agreed. After he had reached an understanding with the people of Khaybar, they asked to be allowed to cultivate their own lands, and to retain one half of the produce, saying, 'We know the estates better than thou, and how to cultivate them.' The Apostle concluded peace with them on this basis, but added, 'If we should find it convenient to expel you, we shall do so.' The people of Fadak made peace with him on the same terms; the property of Khaybar was thus common to all the Muslims, but that of Fadak belonged to the Apostle of Allah, because he had conquered it without the aid of cavalry or camels.

...The plunder of Khaybar, the richest part of the Hijaz, was greater than any before. There were dates, oil, honey and barley, as well as sheep and camels and jewels.

[gross hypocrisy, and refers to Muhammad's slaves]
Punishment for disobeying the prohibitions given on the day of Khaybar was swift. On the way back to Medina a slave of the Apostle was struck by a chance arrow and killed. 'We said, "May he rejoice in paradise", but the Apostle replied, "By no means! I swear that the cloak which he stole from the booty at Khaybar is now burning on him in hell!" A companion of the Apostle who heard these words approached, and said "O, Apostle of Allah! I took two thongs for my sandals", and he replied, "Then you will suffer two thongs of fire."
A little more from one of the many hadith about this event helps confirm certain matters. From the hadith of Sahih Muslim, Book 8, #3325
...There came Dihya and he said: Messenger of Allah, bestow upon me a girl out of the prisoners. He said: Go and get any girl. He [Dahiya] made a choice for Safiyya daughter of Huyayy (b. Akhtab). There came a person to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said: Apostle of Allah, you have bestowed Safiyya bint Huyayy, the chief of Quraiza and al-Nadir, upon Dihya and she is worthy of you only. He said: Call him along with her. So he came along with her. When Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) saw her he said: Take any other woman from among the prisoners. He (the narrator) said: He (the Holy Prophet) then granted her emancipation and married her. Thabit said to him: Abu Hamza, how much dower did he (the Holy Prophet) give to her? He said: He granted her freedom and then married her. On the way Umm Sulaim embellished her and then sent her to him (the Holy Prophet) at night. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) appeared as a bridegroom in the morning.
You see, Muhammad distributed the captive Jewish women among his men for raping and slavery, but was sexually attracted to Safiyya when he saw her, so he granted her "freedom" from slavery, and "married" her - raping her that night. Whether this was before Muhammad had Safiyya's actual husband tortured and beheaded, or afterwards, is unclear.

Hi 'reade-1', thanks for another very interesting post. My own guess is that Muhammad's uncle didn't accept his nephew's new religion because he thought Muhammad a liar - I'll write more on this another time. Of course, the 80% of the current world's population who are not Muslim (and possibly many secular Muslims) also think Muhammad was either a liar or delusional - or both.

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[deleted]

Johntwest and Reade-1,

All of your objections have already been answered in earlier post. They are repeated here once again for your reference:

Biography of the Last Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/4850618/The-Sealed-Nectar-Ar-RaheequlMakhtum -Biography-of-the-Nobel-Prophet-Peace-be-upon-him

Islam & Quran Terror & Child Marriage
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=BEF7CA0A0A4304D7

Slavery:
http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/1371146/folder/33775
http://www.scribd.com/doc/4784026/Slavery-from-Islamic-and-Christian-P erspective[/url
[url]http://www.scribd.com/doc/4713679/The-Position-of-Slavery-in- Islam
http://www.scribd.com/doc/4713458/How-is-it-that-Islam-allows-Slavery
http://www.scribd.com/doc/4787779/Slave-Era-Insurance-Registry

Is Terrorism a Muslim Monopoly
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=44865CB178FBF651

Islam - The empire of Faith - PBS
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=6B47D3E5F1C37BCB

Occupation 101
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=37D1260EAE58336A

By the way, you people are dong an excellent job of copy pasting from the well known Muslim Hater Website FaithFreedom which hosts anonymous and unfounded articles by self proclaimed scholars without any verifiable academic credentials. This is the same website from which you posted numerous other quotes and the bogus article about Mahatma Gandhi in the previous posts. Its founder's concoctions are exposed here:

http://www.examinethetruth.com/Challenge_Sina.htm

Please stop copying and posting such baseless articles and for once start quoting some reputed scholars in the relevant field.

When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes! for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish. (Al-Quran, Chapter 17, Verse 81)

Peace be to everyone who is in search of truth.

Arshie

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Hi Arshie, I have to say you’ve disappointed me a little. I don’t think it’s good enough for you to refuse to answer my points (or reade-1’s), and that you instead provide a bunch of links to somehow do your explaining for you. This is a retreat into obfuscation, and intellectual laziness. However, I acknowledge that thinking objectively about a religion for religious people can be stressful (I was once religious too) and I don’t want you to feel stressed about discussing this.

I want to get through each topic raised in this discussion because I’m sure we can come to agreement on the most important issues, but for now I will ask you to please explain what it is about Ibn Ishaq’s Biography of Muhammad, and the supporting hadith, that you think is incorrect – if there is anything.

(Btw, I haven’t pasted any articles from “faithfreedom” – but I did provide a link to an article (at the end of one of my posts as a postscript) I found through googling Gandhi and Islam. Remember you hadn’t answered reade-1’s point about the apparent lack of Muslims who were famous for spreading non-violence, and instead you had focused on Gandhi and Islam, and I simply wanted to provide more information about this with a link. If I’d known “faithfreedom” were a Muslim-hating site (as you claim) I would not have looked at anything on their site. I’m only interested in the truth whatever that might be, and not in hatred for anyone – unlike people like Dr. Zakir Naik.)

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It's 2 years after this thread has started and what can one conclude? Fitna is a product of reality vs theory. Arshie has so eloquently shown what a true muslim should be but alas you are just a single voice that comes off as an exception and not the rule.

Where is the leadership of peace? The quarterbacks of Islam are haters and role models for extremists. Where is the pressure from the Islamic managers so that radicals fear being ostracized or condemned if they are violent in the name of Allah? Arshie, you don’t need to convince the western world Islam is peaceful. You need to convince the leaders of Islam that they should be peaceful.

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Watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DAerxKYipU
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=BEF7CA0A0A4304D7

Geert Wilders has done as excellent job of deliberately concealing,
distorting, lying, mistranslating, and misquoting out of context verses
from Quran and statements of speakers from Public Lectures in order to
mislead the unsuspecting public. Following is a synopses of this film.

Where ever he quotes a verse from Quran, it is some or all of the
following cases:

1. The translation is deliberately false partially or in its entirety.
2. Incomplete verse is quoted in order to conceal the context.
3. Preceding verses are deliberately not quoted in order to conceal the context.
4. Following verses are not quoted in order to conceal the alternative option that's available in Islamic law.
5. Completely unrelated videos with opposing message to the verse are juxtaposed to enforce a false sense of fear towards the verses.

Where ever public speaker are shown and quoted, some or following are true:

1. The translation subtitles are false.
2. Loud music is added to make it difficult to understand what exactly the speaker is saying.
3. Critical sections that establish the context of talk are clipped out.
4. Unrelated videos are added between or after Public lecture clips to
enforce the false translations.

Every one is welcome to watch the above stated videos that expose the concoctions of Mr. Wilders and discuss them in the light of verifiable evidence.


Having read this thread and your replies , I must conclude that you are disinclined to answer the concerns raised by jontwest. As Frederick II stated " Religion is the idol of the mob: It adores everything it don't uderstand".
Most of the links you have provided are perspectives of various scholars.When a person cease to think , he cease to be a man. Quran speaks for itself. How else would you explain the extreme anti-semitism on Quran along with the other controversial Surahs and Hadiths?

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Well said 'LocknStock' - and the "extreme anti-Semitism" in the Qur'an you mention is of course vital for us to overcome to achieve peace in the Middle East and elsewhere. I want to write more about this another time.
- - - - - - - - - - - -

Hi Arshie, since you haven’t responded to my post above I presume that you acknowledge the accuracy of the biography of Muhammad – and the corroborating hadith – which I quoted from.

As to the so-called "lies" of Wilders in 'Fitna', I want you to acknowledge that you are wrong, and that in essence 'Fitna' accurately quotes from the Qur’an. For example, the very first excerpt from the Qur'an which 'Fitna' uses – from chapter 8, verse 60 “Prepare for them whatever force and cavalry ye are capable of gathering to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies of Allah and your enemies”

And the verse from your own reference for the Qur’an (at http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html) “Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know.”

The next quote in ‘Fitna’ - 4:56 “Those who have disbelieved our signs, we shall roast them in fire whenever their skins are cooked to a turn, we shall substitute new skins for them that they may feel the punishment: verily Allah is sublime and wise”

And from your own reference? “Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.”

[Note here that the Islamic texts which I quoted earlier say that Muhammad had people tortured with fire, and so we can see his hand in inventing this verse, as he invented the others.]

Given that there are many slightly different translations of the Qur’an (including 3 different translations for every verse at the above reference for the Qur’an which you gave), I think we can all agree that the translations in 'Fitna' are indeed accurate in essence. To claim otherwise is simply nit-picking in an attempt to falsely discredit 'Fitna'.

You also haven’t explained why in 'Fitna' so many Islamic leaders call for the murder of people, and why so many Muslims present as neo-Nazis with their anti-Semitism. Have you even watched 'Fitna'? Please do so again - the first part is at http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=_x1Iog2yXro - and you will understand why civilized people dread Islam.

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Arshie, I also want to begin correcting you on your significant misunderstanding of world events. To begin with, you seem to know nothing about the causes of deaths in Iraq, or the actual war on Iraqis being waged by Islamic terrorists, or the Islamic teachings underpinning the terrorist bombings there – teachings which you seem to currently subscribe to.

Terrorists in Iraq have continued murdering tens of thousands of Muslims and non-Muslims – often deliberately targeting civilians - for 5 years. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_bombings_in_Iraq_since_2003 for a partial - though very long - list of suicide bombings, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Qahtaniya_bombings for details of just one terrorist bombing last year which killed nearly 800, and injured 1,562 people for a total of 2,360 casualties from just one terrorist act. Compare this figure caused by the terrorists, with the total killed in Christian Yugoslavia by NATO to save Muslims estimated at between 1500-2000 (non-Muslim) people, and you get some idea of the magnitude of the carnage the terrorists are causing in Iraq.

It is a fact that the democratically-elected government of Iraq wants international help (at least until 2011) to protect Iraqis, and to help stop the religious violence. For the Iraqi government view on the war there, please see interviews with the truly great Muslim Iraqi parliamentarian, Mr. Iyad Jamal Al-Din - for example at http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/793.htm he says:

"The Arab governments should support the Iraqi government, which was legally elected. I think this is the only government in our Arab region that was formed following free and fair elections. The Arabs must stop meddling in Iraq’s affairs, and stop inciting to hatred, violence and terrorism. They should not call these terrorist attacks "resistance". There isn’t any kind of resistance in Iraq – these are terrorist acts under the guise of patriotism and of claims about defeating the occupation. They have nothing to do with the Americans or others. They are scum, remnants of previous corrupt regime."

"Today dozens of children and people queuing in front of bakeries are killed, and we hear no condemnation from any jurisprudent, quasi-jurisprudent, or from any government. What is happening in Iraq is a real massacre, and a real war between truth and falsehood, between a democratic government which relies on the public, and the remnants of the Umayyad, Abbasid, and Ottoman tyranny."
The reason that attacks by Islamic terrorists are not widely condemned in the Islamic world is because Islam exists through never acknowledging its faults, and by keeping Muslims bigoted against non-Muslims, so people like you are never made aware of the people behind the killings in Iraq. (This also impacts on your completely skewed views on other trouble spots in the world.)

Of course the Islamic teaching on apostasy is the reason that some Sunnis (and Shias) think it is alright to kill each other, and send suicide bombers into crowded market-places with women and children. For a recent attack on Muslims by Muslims which mentions the apostasy reason for the killings (heresy) see the 6th paragraph at http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/29/iraq.alqaida

I ask you Arshie to reconsider your view that apostates should be killed. This is clearly a recipe for disaster. Imagine if we all held the same value – that anyone who left our ideology or group should be murdered. You must see how wrong this is. I hope you agree that if religions are truly great, they will attract people to them and keep them, without resorting to murderous threats!

In earlier posts of yours you’ve also written that the propagation of other religions is “unacceptable”. I don’t attribute this religious fascism, (or your murderous views on apostates), to you however. I’m sure these views are not in your nature, but are a result of being raised under Muhammad’s ideology. Consider the Muslim doctors who tried to commit mass murder in Glasgow last year. I’m sure these men were good and intelligent men at heart, who were caring and kind with their patients - but Islamic ideology can corrupt the best people.

Religions like Islam hold back all moral improvements, and most improvements in knowledge, because these religions were invented by men who thought they had all the answers in ancient primitive times. However, it is demonstrably true that they did not. The knowledge of religion about the natural world is often demonstrably false, and also people have made a judgement that the morals of religions are often wrong, and have changed them. I ask you to join the rest of us in questioning the teachings and supernatural claims of ancient primitive peoples.

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Dear Johntwest,

Kindly explain in which language is "intercourse" equal to "Rape". Throughout your long list of false allegations against Islam and its prophet you have attacked Islam as allowing rape. Kindly quote Quranic or Ahadith that allow rape. So far I have found none.

Thanks

Arshie

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[Edited 5th paragraph of mine for clarity]

Hi Arshie, good to have you back. I realize it’s no consolation, but I do regret having to expose Muhammad in this way. I was once religious, and felt that "my" religion was somehow a part of my identity – and so anything said against "my" religion could potentially be saddening or annoying. However religions really only belong to the people responsible for inventing them - we are all just human beings, who usually by pure chance end up following one person’s invented religion or another.

Regarding Muhammad and his rape of women, and his promoting of the rape of women by his followers, there are several passages from the Qur’an and hadith which refer to this. You probably know of the expeditions of Muhammad’s against neighboring tribes where he had the men executed, and distributed the women and children among his warriors for rape and slavery – these are variously described in hadiths (e.g. Bukhari, Vol 5, Book 59, #362: "...He then killed their men and distributed their women, children and property among the Muslims...He exiled all the Jews from Medina.") and the behaviour is also conveniently justified in Muhammad’s Qur’an.

Let’s begin with some of Muhammad’s ground rules (or lack thereof) for rape. The title of a chapter from book 8 of the hadith of Sahih Muslim deals specifically with raping women, and tells how a verse of Muhammad’s Qur’an allowing rape subsequently came to be "revealed".

Chapter 29: IT IS PERMISSIBLE TO HAVE SEXUAL INTERCOURSE WITH A CAPTIVE WOMAN AFTER SHE IS PURIFIED (OF MENSES OR DELIVERY). IN CASE SHE HAS A HUSBAND, HER MARRIAGE IS ABROGATED AFTER SHE BECOMES CAPTIVE
We can't pretend that married women choose to have consensual sex with strange men who have just taken them prisoner, slaughtered their people, distributed their children for slavery, and stolen land and other plunder from their tribes. The conclusion we're left with is that Muhammad and his men were rapists. But there's more. The chapter continues with the following

Book 8, Number 3432:
...Allah's Messenger (may pbuh) sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah's Messenger (may pbuh) seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their HUSBANDS being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that: "And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (iv. 24)"

Qur'an 4.24
"And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you."
In this incident, Muhammad’s companions "refrain" from raping captive married women, until Muhammad conveniently "reveals" a new verse for his Qur’an permitting it. Clearly, the married captive women are given NO CHOICE.

Now, Muhammad and his gang sometimes kept women and children for rape and/or slavery, but sometimes held them for ransom. However, if the women had obviously been raped and were pregnant, the ransom would be more difficult to get from the women’s families - in those days where a family's "honor" was effected by the woman being tarnished with being raped. This presented a quandary – handled by Muhammad as described in the hadith of Malik's Muwatta - section 'Coitus Interruptus':
Book 29, Number 29.32.95:

"...Abu Said al-Khudri said, 'We went out with the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, on the expedition to the Banu al-Mustaliq. We took some Arabs prisoner, and we desired the women as celibacy was hard for us. We wanted the RANSOM, so we wanted to practise coitus interruptus. We said, 'Shall we practise coitus interruptus while the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, is among us before we ask him?' We asked him about that and he said, 'You don't have to not do it. There is no self which is to come into existence up to the Day of Rising but that it will come into existence.' "
So Muhammad advised his men not to worry about ejaculating into their rape victims and potentially getting them pregnant. Muhammad also revealed a verse in which "Allah" supposedly spoke to him personally, giving Muhammad special privileges for having sex with more women than other Muslims, and raping women who were the "spoils of war".
Qur'an 33.50
"O Prophet! Lo! We have made LAWFUL UNTO THEE thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as SPOILS OF WAR, and the daughters of thine uncle on the father's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the father's side, and the daughters of thine uncle on the mother's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the mother's side who emigrated with thee, and a believing woman if she give herself unto the Prophet and the Prophet desire to ask her in marriage – a privilege for thee only, not for the (rest of) believers - We are Aware of that which We enjoined upon them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess - that thou mayst be free from BLAME, for Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful."
Here Muhammad not only gives himself special sexual privileges (as other self-proclaimed "prophets" like Joseph Smith and David Koresh have done), but he has ‘Allah’ say "thou mayest be free from blame" – i.e. to excuse his rapes and those of his army. On the positive side, this suggest that Muhammad had something of a conscience about the crimes he committed - perhaps more so than some of his men.

(Interestingly, there is more evidence of Muhammad inventing verses of the Qur'an to fulfill his sexual desires. One verse of Muhammad’s Qur’an has Allah go to the trouble of saying that Muhammad doesn’t have to have sex with his various wives in turn - 33.51 "Thou mayest defer (the turn of) any of them that thou pleasest, and thou mayest receive any thou pleasest: and there is no blame on thee if thou invite one whose (turn) thou hadst set aside." To which his child-wife Aisha replied in the hadith of Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 311: "...when Allah revealed (33.51)... I said (to the Prophet), "I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires." I don't know if she intended this as sarcasm or not. Muhammad also married his adopted son’s wife, and so he had another Qur’anic verse "revealed" to allow this as well!)

Now a couple of Muhammad’s rapes. I’ve already quoted from the first Islamic biography of Muhammad about the torture and murder of Safiyya’s husband, and Muhammad’s instant "marrying" of her when he felt sexually attracted to her, but now I’ll quote from some corroborating hadith
Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3325:

...We took it (the territory of Khaibar) by force, and there were gathered the prisoners of war. There came Dihya and he said: Messenger of Allah, bestow upon me a girl out of the prisoners. He [Muhammad] said: Go and get any girl. He [Dihya] made a choice for Safiyya daughter of Huyayy (b. Akhtab). There came a person to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said: Apostle of Allah, you have bestowed Safiyya bint Huyayy, the chief of Quraiza and al-Nadir, upon Dihya and she is worthy of you only.

He [Muhammad] said: Call him along with her. So he came along with her. When Allah's Apostle (may pbuh) SAW HER he said: Take any other woman from among the prisoners. He (the narrator) said: He (the Holy Prophet) then granted her emancipation and married her. Thabit said to him: Abu Hamza, how much dower did he (the Holy Prophet) give to her? He said: He granted her freedom and then married her. On the way Umm Sulaim embellished her and then sent her to him (the Holy Prophet) at night...

Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 513:

Narrated 'Abdul 'Aziz bin Suhaib:
Anas bin Malik said, "The Prophet took Safiya as a captive. He manumitted her and married her."
It is clear that Muhammad took one look at Safiyya, and decided to "marry" her that night - and given that he had Safiyya's husband tortured and murdered, and stole the Jews' land and goods, we have to presume the sex was not by free choice. And then there is Muhammad’s rape of Juwairiya.
Bukhari Volume 3, Book 46, Number 717:

Narrated Ibn Aun:
I wrote a letter to Nafi and Nafi wrote in reply to my letter that the Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives; the PROPHET GOT JUWAIRIYA on that day.

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 29, Number 3920:

...Juwayriyyah, daughter of al-Harith ibn al-Mustaliq, fell to the lot of Thabit ibn Qays ibn Shammas, or to her cousin. She entered into an agreement to purchase her freedom. She was a very BEAUTIFUL woman, most ATTRACTIVE to the eye.
...She said: Apostle of Allah, I am Juwayriyyah, daughter of al-Harith, and something has happened to me, which is not hidden from you. I have fallen to the lot of Thabit ibn Qays ibn Shammas, and I have entered into an agreement to purchase of my freedom. I have come to you to seek assistance for the purchase of my freedom.

The Apostle of Allah (pbuh) said: Are you inclined to that which is better?
She asked: What is that, Apostle of Allah?
He replied: I shall pay the price of your freedom on your behalf, and I shall marry you.
She said: I shall do this
...The people then heard that the Apostle of Allah (pbuh) had married Juwayriyyah. They released the captives in their possession and set them free, and said: They are the relatives of the Apostle of Allah (pbuh) by marriage. We did not see any woman GREATER than Juwayriyyah who brought blessings to her people. One hundred families of Banu al-Mustaliq were set free on account of her.
As with Safiyya, Juwayriyyah was apparently a beautiful woman who was distributed as a sex-slave to one of Muhammad's men, but when he saw her he wanted to have sex with her. The writer of this hadith clearly implies that the beautiful Juwayriyyah had made a GREAT sacrifice, in agreeing to be raped by the murderer of her tribe's men on the night she was captured, so that some members of her tribe might be freed from Muhammad’s slavery. Keep in mind that these histories are written by Muhammad's side, wishing to paint his actions in the best light. Imagine a history of these events written by his victims.

There are two ways you can be assured beyond reasonable doubt that Muhammad was a rapist, and that he taught others to rape. The first is to imagine these stories as if Muslims were the victims of Crusaders. E.g. Imagine the following (fictional) history was written by Crusaders: "The Crusaders travelled to recapture lands stolen by Muslims. On the way they passed through a Muslim town. The Chief Crusader had all the Muslim men beheaded, and distributed the women and children between his warriors. He saw a Muslim woman among the prisoners who was more beautiful than the rest. He had a revelation from God that that for the Crusaders “all married women are forbidden, except those captives whom your right hands possess”, and with great pleasure he "married" the Muslim woman that night. Meanwhile his men freely ejaculated into the other captive Muslim women as per his instructions."

I know that you would join the rest of us of the human race in calling this mass rape, and the Chief rapist’s justification a disgustingly lie.

The second way we know Muhammad was a rapist, and taught others to rape, is that we see explicit evidence of this from modern Muslims. For example, the ex-PLO terrorist Mr. Walid Shoebat writes in his book ‘Why I Left Jihad’ of "our Nazi education", and (on page 32):
I remember students used to ask our teacher, Na’eem Ayyad, during our Islamic studies in Bethlehem High School, if it were permitted for Muslims to rape the Jewish women after we defeated them. His response was "The women captured in battle have no choice in this matter, they are concubines and they need to obey their masters, having sex with slave captives is not a matter of choice for slaves." He said that sexual intercourse with Jewish captives does not have to be consensual.'
I want to stress that Muslims shouldn't feel ashamed or as though they’re somehow implicated in what Muhammad did. Any of us non-Muslims could have been raised under Muhammad's Islam if chance had dictated the circumstances. What we all need to do is to stand together and create pressure to reform the worst parts of all ideologies. As the Muslim Professor Mr. Ziauddin Sardar writes at http://www.newstatesman.com/200302170039 of Muhammad "What made him human was that he could make mistakes and he was a product of his own time.... Islam...requires individual believers and societies to exert themselves and to reinterpret the Koran and the life of the Prophet Muhammad."

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I really appreciate the way arshie responded to fitna. His calm voice and academic response helped me understand the Quran much better. I see people like Pat condell and Christopher Hitchens enjoy great success because they appeal to the worst aspects of human nature. But they rarely use facts or logic.

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[deleted]

Let me quote something, may you find the truth :p

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion


I have seen occupation101. It just proved a simple point - "Religion is useful for rulers and devastating for common man".

I am dubious as to how you can believe the authenticity of Koran or say Bible or any other religious books ? Why do people go by books ? Isn't it a matter of his own morality to decide what is good or not ? Is it really necessary to do good just because you need a seat booked in heaven (or utopia or various other things referred in various other religions) ? Isn't it ridiculous ?





_______________
But you're a doctor! It's your job to heal people!. How can you just let her die!

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I'm not a muslim but i think that arshie is a good example of how muslims should be. Rational and educated. MinorSmith we in the cizilised world owe a great deal to the past inovations of Islam; science, maths and medicine. Christians have commited their fair share of atrocities in the past aswell....

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Christians have commited their fair share of atrocities in the past as well....

yes, well christianity has been drageed kicking and screaming into the modern age, unlike our muslim friends who are stuck in the dark ages.

we in the cizilised world owe a great deal to the past inovations of Islam; science, maths and medicine.

not exactly. most of the scientific advances were simply what muslims discovered from a civilization that they concquered. in fact, islam itself discourages knowledge. here is a good article about the so-called 'golden age of islam'-
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Myths-of-Islam.htm#science

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[deleted]

Proof ?


_______________
But you're a doctor! It's your job to heal people!. How can you just let her die!

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I am borned muslim.

I want to say to everyone one of you people here what my take is on religion in general.

I believe: Religion was not (in contrary to what many of you would think) meant to be a bad thing. It was meant to be for people to be good and do good. Some religions do this by threatening people that do wrong, and glorify and reward others that do good. While others do it by sharing love and happiness.

These are the ground rules of religion (I believe).

Now, if a person is in need of such "threatening" or "love" to be good, then let him/her be with this. If you are not in need of any religion to be a good man- then let that be aswell.

Some say religion (not only islam, if you think that you really should be more educated) is poisonus and promotes evil. What you should take in consideration is that evil has been looong before any religions. Religion is nowdays used to do wrong. But would evil be gone if religion is to? We are only human beings.

Religion is something you are borned with. I am borned a muslim, my girlfriend is too. Yet my best friends are all from christians, atheists, hindu's and jews. But all of the above are as far as I can see good. That is the main thing. Be good and do good- that is the real message.

We all have a commen denominator, our numerator is different. Thats all.

So hey- be good and do good! And may Allah, God, or whom ever u wish bless you and yours.

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Hi Arshie,

Consequently, you're telling us that it's OK to treat people as slaves in the Islamic world.

What we did in the west with slaves was wrong, but when you're a Muslim it's OK to have slaves?

And what about their hate against gay people. Is it OK to kill them because they´re gay? Gay rights are human rights, but not according to the Islam. There is an imam named El Moumni in the Netherlands, and he is telling other Muslims that it´s OK to kill gay people. That they´re less than animals.

The Netherlands used to be a great country but nowadays not because our Dutch government doesn't do anything against people like El Moumin. He can preach what he wants so he can continue his crusade against gay people all because of freedom of religion.

On the other hand, the Dutch government is looking for ways to prosecute him because of the things he said about the Islam and about the integration of foreign people in the Netherlands.

Therefore, it´s OK if an imam says things about gay people, but it is not OK if people like Geert Wilders are saying something about the Islam.

If I had a change then I would emigrate to the USA because of this.

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Dear Cynthia

I've been reading this thread from the start and the only thing that keeps getting repeated is "Slavery in Islam". As my Brother in Islam Arshie has mentioned, there is great deal of Sawab (Charity) in freeing Slaves. And when you say the word Slave it means some human being who was either bought or caught as the bounty of the war. Do you know what actually happened to the Slaves in the era of Prophet Muhammed (S.A.W)? His two really close friends Abu Bakr and Uthman were known to be rich and bought and immediatly freed many slaves. Bilal (R.A) was also a freed slave and hack do you know he was an Ethiopian. African by birth, but he is one of the most elated of the companions of the Prophet. Prophet (S.A.W) even adopted (for some time before Islam forbade to call the adopted child by the adopted parents' name instead of the biological parents') one of his freed slaves he was Zaid (R.A). He then even was married to a girl in the buno hashim, the biggest and most elite tribe of Arab at that time. And lets talk some more, at the farewell Pilgrimage our Holy Prophet(S.A.W) strictly gave new orders from Allah about slavery.
1. your slave eats what you eat.
lets say i'm at a 7 star hotel and my slave happens to be with me he gets to eat what I am eating. twice the cost.
2. He wears what you wear.
I'm wearing a gucci or armani i have to get the same for my slave.

All in all you treat your slave like your brother.

Get the picture? Now lets think about it, I have a family to take care for and then I have a slave who also gets all the privileges that I get. Whats easy? keeping him or freeing him/her and earning some sawab?

To MinorSmith

Hey brother! isn't it obvious that as a member of any league or religion one will defend it? Right? But I have a suggestion for you. a friendly suggestion. You express so much hatred for my religion, I don't know why? but you do. you won't take mine or Arshie's word for it because "We are muslims and obviously we'll defend our religion" then why do you go ahead and trust the Islam haters? If we are biased because we belong to this religion, then those haters are biased too. Just take your time and read about our religion on your own, you are a rational human being, reason and get your own opinion don't mimic and replicate the opinions propagated in the media.

I am only an ordinary Muslim I can just argue with what little knowledge I have, I hope I've helped you understand about us a little bit.

To whomever who mentioned that Islam means submission.

Yes it does mean submission but to whom? To Allah, we are slaves of Allah and there is no shame to be the slaves of our creator.


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Sorry girl I just read your comment about "Gay Rights" right now.

I'm sorry but Sodomy is a crime in Islam as is sex outside marriage both are treated as equal crimes and if and only if somebody has the witnesses to prove both the crimes in an Muslim Country then the government has the right to punish them according to the law. Well lets think Judaism and Christianity are anti gay too aren't they? Why don't you go ahead and say those exact hateful words about them. In America antisemitism is a crime but any Muslim-hating comment, movie etc is just freedom of speech. I heard on a tv channel that Beatles were hated for a time period for their comment on being more popular than Jesus Christ himself. And a lot of fans burnt their collections items to show their annoyance. Same thing happened when Prince Harry had just worn a Nazi uniform in a masquerade party. Brits made him apologize for that too. Now when we have high Respect of Allah's word Quran and his Prophets all of them including Jesus Christ. And all Muslims love Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W), then why does west hurt our feelings by doing hateful and hurtful acts towards us? These exact taliban were holy soldiers when they were fighting the "Russian Commies" now they are terrorists. There are Good Muslims and bad Muslim but you keep on stamping us BAD BAD BAD, don't you have Muslims in your communities? Don't you see how they are in their dealings with you. I'm sure there will be good and bad of them. We have Christians and Hindus in our community ,in fact I have 3 Christian and 1 Hindu friend and we live in harmony. Rather we talk about our religions, get to know whats their view and find the similarities. But the global media, after 9/11 has been on our case so that the truth is concealed in the half truths.

And coming back to the Gay issue, you may call me anti gay or whatever but let me clarify this Me or any individual muslim has no right to kill a gay guy/girl, anyone who does has commit ed a sin, its only right for a government under the law of Islam that can punish this crime. I'm not going to go ahead and explain why sodomy or gayness is wrong in Islam. Allah's word is good for me. But Again I emphasize we as Muslims have no right to kill the gays of Netherlands, America or anywhere in the world.

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