MovieChat Forums > Fitna (2008) Discussion > Can't we all just get along?

Can't we all just get along?

posted 16 years ago by tomrombouts
20 replies | jump to latest

Hi -

The moment I heard about the attempted supression of "Fitna" I knew I had to see it, was able to easily download the English subtitled version via a P2P network. And of course, the short film is simplistic and extreme propaganda, using many horrific images to try and tarnish a diverse religion. I would like to believe that the great majority of Muslims worldwide are generally peaceful.

To turn it around, what if someone showed a verse from the bible onscreen that seemed to suggest violence, then showed footage of the Nazi genocide as an example of Christian terrorism? I know that is an extreme example (and takes us to Godwin's law in the very first posting!), but it is not all that different from what "Fitna" does.

I am not at all religious, and am fractionally Jewish (one of my great-grandparents was a Hungarian Jew) so it would be odd of me to encourage any sort of religious prejudice, but it does seem to me that a certain number of Muslims are indeed fanatics, or perhaps more simply put, kind of nuts. Going back to the Salmon Rushdie "Satanic Verses" controversy, and obviously moving forward to September 11th and then (since this is imdb.com) the 2004 Theo Van Gogh murder, a small number of Muslim extremists have been responsible for many violent, highly publicized actions. (btw, I know the U.S. government has its own share of skeletons in the closet - I am not trying to say I am holier than thou or anything.)

During the "Dutch cartoons" controversy I remember seeing a cartoon showing a Muslim man saying "You say that Muslims are violent and intolerant? We will kill you!" I know that would offend a lot of Muslims, yet it seemed to somewhat accurately summarize how many saw the situation.

I want to be tolerant of other people's beliefs or non-beliefs, but I am starting to wonder if the idea in "God Is Not Great" and other recent books (very roughly that as weapons of mass destruction get more and more powerful that extreme religious belief is becoming more dangerous) might have something to it.

To bring this back to the world of film, it seems to me that, ironically, the reaction by some Muslims to the film "Fitna" with death threats etc. only seems to support the reactionary ideas presented in the film. That is the reality that I am facing and struggling with - the violent threats associated with "Fitna" have caused me to think less of Muslims overall, even though intellectually I know it probably only a tiny percentage of all Muslims worldwide that harbor such extreme views.

Can we all just get along? Will the power of religious belief start to fade as it already has in much of Europe? Or will national governments embracing religious points of view (which happened to a degree in the U.S. with Dubya) make the modern world an even more dangerous place?

- TWR
Los Angeles

[–] bertrambunter 16 years ago

Tomrombots: You are quite mistaken in categorizing Fitna as simplistic and extreme propaganda. Propaganda is invented, twisted and untrue With regard to the movie Fitna all these images and quotes have been lifted direct from islam - the quotes from the koran and the images from islam-generated videos. The movie is a list, true, but a list that is absolutely authentic and supplied by islam itself.

You also err in equating the nazis and their philosophy with christianity. The nazis were proudly very anti-christian. Christians who spoke out against them were persecuted and many died. You have tried to draw a comparison between radical islam perverting the muslim religion, and nazis perverting the christain religion.

Firstly, radical islamics act in the name of their god, and justify their actions with quotations from their holy book.

The nazis acted in the name of the national socialist state, and gave scant if any thought to religion of any kind.

So you see, it would not be possible to state with any conviction that nazis were acting in the name of Christ - that would be a true example of the worst kind of propaganda - worthy of Goebbels himself.

People must understand that Wilders has done nothing but present authentic items from the muslim religion and from muslims themselves.

[–] VerbalKint-2 16 years ago

Actually bertrambunter, most propaganda today is not invented or untrue. What it tends to be is selective and entirely lacking in impartiality, but most of its messages are based on facts. Carefully selected facts which support only the views of the propagandist.

As such, an argument can be made that Fitna does the category of propaganda, as it fails to show anything but the negatives.

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Babies don't need a vacation, but I still see them at the beach
Steven Wright

[–] bertrambunter 16 years ago

Varbalkint: Thank you, I don't need to be corrected by you - as I said, Wilders movie, such as it is, is comprised entirely of facts - so, not propaganda, but truth, even if totally one sided. The crucial difference between islam and the west is that there is every opportunity for a film to be made showing the complete opposite, which would also be biased, if in an entirely different direction. While I am sure a movie about islam, the religion of peace and compassion, showing the religion in a positive light would be welcomed and feted in muslim societies, try making one such as Wilders has made. - Hah!!

[–] simon-648 16 years ago

Maybe bertrambunter should learn the meaning of propaganda.

Quote from the New Oxford American Dictionary:
"Chiefly derogatory information, esp. of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view."

The "Fitna" movie does fall under that category. It's extremely biased. Not even Michael Moore could do it worse. Mr. Wilders couldn't even quote correctly from the Qur'an.

But the movie is a treat for xenophobic people.

[–] MinorSmith 16 years ago

That is the reality that I am facing and struggling with - the violent threats associated with "Fitna" have caused me to think less of Muslims overall, even though intellectually I know it probably only a tiny percentage of all Muslims worldwide that harbor such extreme views.

You're walking on thin ice with that statement, Tomrombouts. You're almost admitting that you're a Muslim who's pretending to be a non-Muslim that is "critical" of Islam. Every Muslim has extreme views of the world, birthed from Islam. Perhaps they don't adhere to its violent tactics, but don't deny yourself the fact that they harbor extreme views. One of those extreme views is that they are, first and foremost, a Muslim. Damn Persian. Damn Asian. Damn anything else. They are Muslim, first and foremost. The other is that they must spread Islam globally until, one day, the world is brought under the dominion of a caliphate. Just because many Muslims aren't blowing themselves up doesn't mean that they don't relate to the "struggle" of their foot soldiers. All Muslims are devoted to jihad, a struggle to convert the world to Islam, but not all carry on to that purpose under its violent methods. Many Muslim men marry non-Muslims, produce many children, and observe their duty in that manner. It doesn't matter that the wife isn't a Muslim, but the children will most definitely be. Violence is not the only way that the average Muslim intends to Islamize the globe.

Either you don't know much about Islam, if anything, or you're another "non-Muslim pretender" who's actually a Muslim, either practicing or non-practicing. Only an ignorant person or a Muslim would defend Islam, as you have between the lines of your supposed "criticism" of Islam, even though the two would fall under the same category. It's not just Muslims that are a global problem. It's Islam. The problem stems from Islam. Islam, the Arab-nationalist ideology, controls the Muslim. If you understood the global concern, you would understand that point.

To back up the historical account that Hitler admired Islam and consulted with the Islamic leadership:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/muftihit.html

[–] zap644 16 years ago

Give it a rest, Minor. Calling anyone who criticizes this film a Muslim is getting tiresome and it is not credible.

I'm staunchly agnostic - does that taint my comments? I don't think so.

Certainly it does not give me the same bias as a Jew, Christian or Muslim, but that's what I am.

Some folks adhere to the religion of atheism (And that IS a religion) and their views are tainted as such too.

Where was I going with this?

Oh yeah - just because I don't agree with the people who criticize this film, does not mean that they are Muslims.

[–] NewBeanz 16 years ago

All religious fundamentalists should be killed. Christians, Muslim, whatever...

[–] Pete101 16 years ago

Well it doesn't sound like you're much better. Sounds like your much worse. "I don't agree, lets kill them". Yep, thats done a lot of good for us as a race in the past.

[–] lostconsciousness00 16 years ago

if u haven't met the unradical muslim it doesn't mean they're not exist.i live in Indonesia which is 80% of the populations R muslims.only 20% of them practicing.i'm fine living in it.most of my friends R muslims n they're not radical at all.they pray just once in a year,they drink alcohol,sex,etc.just like 'normal' people do.i do aware that A LOT OF them R radical,fanatic, u name it.n they have problem:their lack of education about the world

[–] bertrambunter 16 years ago

I'm sorry but the radicals get all the publicity, and that may be because they are so dangerous and violent. You'll have to do something about them - they are your cross (or should I say crescent) to bear, and sort out. The reaction of westerners is always going to be hostile under these circumstances and you must accept that and act to change things for the better.It's your responsibility.

[–] mrcooldude10 16 years ago

Every religion has its radicals and its radical beliefs. The only reason that Islam stands out is because their radicals seem to have the means to carry out the attacks. Give the same kind of resources to any radical Christian in America and I guarantee you that the whole world will be much more screwed than we are now.

I've grown up in a Muslim country all my life, by Muslim parents. Personally I'm agnostic but that has nothing to do with me finding the religion "scary".

The Muslims have a right to be angry based on how they are being judged right now in the world. Try making a documentary taking the sh*t out of Jesus and if you honestly believe that the Christians will just let it air and sit back and laugh about the whole situation than you are very naive.

[–] bertrambunter 16 years ago

I am amazed that you think that radical christians don't have the resources to carry out attacks - of course they do, but they choose not to, When christians go off the deep end it usually ends in mass suicides, or shoot outs with the FBI and ATF, or the occasional attack on an abortion clinic ( for which there are humps sitting on death row as we speak). And in actual fact these events are far more often prompted by resentment over government high handedness and [erceived loss of liberty than motives of religion. I'm afraid your 'islam' is showing, Mrcooldude (I must ask, is that ID really necessary or appropriate). These things are sickening and disgusting, but by no means pose such a threat as islamic radicals do, and occur far less frequently. They are not a part of christianity, you see, as they are a part of islam.

You mention what would occur if someone made a movie depicting christianity in the light that islam is depicted in Fitna. I daresay there may be some protests, some correspondence in the media, maybe some gatherings outside where the movie was playing, but you would not see anyone calling for beheadings and murders - they'd be laughed off the scene if they did, since that is the exact opposite of Christ's teachings. anf they would make themselves look ridiculous - in addition to which such incitement to violence is illegal if the police care to prosecute. For some reason muslims in the west feel that they are entitled to incite violence and murder, I don't know why.

Have you ever seen the movie A Life of Brian? It is old now, and features the Monty Python crew - it is a screamingly funny take on the life of Jesus, and yes, it is regarded as extremely disrespectful by some strict christians, but in actual fact it is far more of a mockery of life in England (as it used to be)than of te life of Christ. The reaction of sincere observant christians when it was released was to write to the papers, and then assemble outside the various cinemas where it was playing, with placards which read - You've seen the movie - now read the book - and hand out copies of the bible to anyone who was interested. It all passed off quite peaceably, no rioting, the movie is still shown on TV from time to time, and has never been banned.

However, when A Life of Brian was being filmed on location in Tunisia there Tunisian authorities were told that it was a historical drama, and no mention was made of Jesus at all - this was done on the advice of the Tunisian film board who were afraid of rioting and bloodshed if a 'prophet of islam' were to be observed being treated less then utterly respectfully.

There are other films, too - The Last Temptation of Christ - I haven't seen it myself, and wouldn't, but it's not for me to say it should not be shown, likewise The Passion of the Christ, which I also haven't seen as I thought it was dreadfully disrespectful in its depiction.

So you see, cooldude (not) you don't understands life in the west at all - if you think the only reason we don't riot and murder over religious controversy like you is because we haven't got the resources, you have absolutely no idea of the basic differences between islam and the west.

[–] mrcooldude10 16 years ago

First off the name just appears because of the email I used to signup which I created when I was 10. So ignore it.

If you believe every Muslim wants to go out and kill everybody that shows your low-minded mentality.

"They are not a part of christianity, you see, as they are a part of islam."

That's extremely convenient. When a Christian radical does it, he's not following his true religion but when an Islamic extremist does it suddenly he's following his? What makes you come up with these conclusions?

Not nearly as bad you say? There are people who consider themselves "true" Christians who go to funerals to protest that the person deserved to die. http://www.oanow.com/oan/news/local/article/protesters_picketers_gather_at_burks_funeral/7684/ . Thats an example for you.

"These things are sickening and disgusting, but by no means pose such a threat as islamic radicals do, and occur far less frequently."

No. They just don't get the media coverage and as I mentioned they don't have the resources. By resources I mean the bombs and such that Al Qaida possesses. Nor is there a central body. You agree they bomb abortion clinics and such but make it seem like it doesn't matter. There is no Islamic country that outright supports Al Qaeda. There have been many cases where extremists have been caught in Indonesia (a widely Islamic country) and are now on death row.

The Islamic religion doesn't encourage killing unless it is in defense. What extremists do is blur the meaning of "defense" and think they are following the religion when they are not.

And yes I have seen Life Of Brain. First off that movie wasn't a direct parody of Jesus Christ but infact a completely different character. And second off it was a PARODY and not a documentary insulting a religion. And here's a fact for you Graham Chapman who played Brian was a homosexual and admits he got many death threats throughout his life from Christian fanatics.

Also what MOST Muslims do is protest. Only very few actually turn violent. When the Danish cartoons were released most protests were peaceful and most Muslims reacted by boycotting Danish products, holding protests outside embassies etc. You make it seem like every Muslim had blood on their mind.

You see, bunter YOU don't understand the Islamic lifestyle. You generalize the whole population as being murderers which shows your ignorance. I never said the people in the west don't kill people because they don't have the resources. I am able to differentiate between the extremist and the people who really do follow their religion and beliefs. I have grown up on both sides of the spectrum. In the west, in an islamic country and in an international school system which was filled with people from all over the world. And it's people like you that piss me off with your blatant ignorance.

[–] scion9 16 years ago

You obviously don't know very much about Islam. Islam permits murder against those that are "spreading corruption in the land". That isn't just self defense. Self defense implies bodily threat. They are permitted to kill over a percieved corrupting influence.

You are also obviously unfamiliar with Sharia jurisprudence, the concept of Qasir in Sharia, and the Fiqh. In Sharia, killing an Infidel is not a crime. So much for self defense.

I love how the people that 'twist' the teachings of the Qur'an and Hadith are always people like the college educated, well travelled, aristocrat Osama Bin Laden, and Dr. Zawhari, or the Intellectual Sayyid Qutb and countless Imams and Sharia jurists. Such an array of misunderstanders. Of course, the real teachings of Islam are properly practiced and portrayed by majority illiterate masses that have never actually read their own holy books.

For the record, those Cartoonists have been living in hiding under constant government surveillance and protection, as is Geert Wilders. They don't live normal lives for speaking out against Islam. Muslims don't just protest. "A tiny minority of extremists" is irrelevant, since it only takes one person to kill you.

A Syrian Imam was preaching that a true Danish Muslim should carry a knife with them, and kill Theo van Gogh, for making his movie Submission, which was about exposing the mysogony and abuse of women in Islam and Islamic countries. Low and behold, after making Submission, Theo van Gogh was stabbed to death in Amsterdamn. There was much Muslim rejoicing.

'All they do' is protest about the cartoonists is because they can't actually physically get to them to kill them. Those cartoonists will likely never walk the streets, or go shopping or go to Church with their families again because of those 'protests'. Did it not occur to you that these 'non-violent' protesters were actually calling for the death of the cartoonists? That isn't non-violent.

Get real. So, did Graham Chapman go into hiding for the rest of his life? Where is the conclusion go that story?

As for not having the resources to do damage, by Christian radicals, again, get real. The attackers on 9/11 were trained in the US, they hijacked US planes. Christians had the same opportunities as those hijackers. The 7/7 attackers were born and raised in the UK. Their access was equal to that of any Christian in the UK. The DC Snipers said they were on Jihad. They were homegrown; Americans. They could have been Christian, but they were not. Any Christian could have went on a killing spree for Christ, but did not.

The actual largest bombing that ever took place in the US was a domestic, non-religious terrorist. If Timothy McVeigh can make a bomb out of gasoline and fertilizer, than anyone can.

You try to recant the fact that you said that Christians would carry out terrorist attacks if they had the resources. Well, they have the resources, where are the attacks? There are actually more Christians than Muslims in the world, yet more than 4 out of 5 terrorist attacks worldwide are conducted by Muslims in the name of Islam. Muslims make up less than 1/5 of the population of the earth. You do the math.

Some 'tiny minority'. 4 out of 5 Americans are Christian. We have more 'radical' Christians here than anywhere on Earth. Their access to weapons, including automatic weapons and bomb making materials as well as easily accessible know-how is greater than probably anywhere on the planet. Again, do the math.

I'm an atheist, but I won't sit here and rave against Christianity and try to pretend there is some kind of theological equivalency, or especially that there is some kind of equivalency in the actions of the followers of both religions. There isn't. No one in their right mind would think that is true.

That is including the Muslims I have been friends with and been employed by. They were actually sane though, and were able to admit that fundamentalist Christians were not creating the same kind of havoc as the Jihadists were in their native Pakistan (or anywhere else in the world). To suggest otherwise is a complete joke.

[–] bertrambunter 16 years ago

Mrcooldude - Everything you have said is the opposite of the facts - which is typical of your mind set. YOu are not the only one with experience of living in both western and islamic societies. I have done so, and also lived on four continents, in 13 different countries, some of them muslim - and I still say that islamic terrorists murder in the name of allah and their religion which presents an enormous problem for people like you. YOu don't get brownie points for being normal, you know, that is only what the rest of us expect. You do get brickbats for causing trouble - it's that simple.

And here's a fact for you - we all know about Graham Chapman, have done since his early pre-python days, and he certainly made enemies by the way he behaved, which was outre to say the least - death threats - yes a few, from the same sort of people who attend funerals of gays and make horrible comments to the grieving parents and families about their deceased loved ones - the Fred Phelps' of this world. People who call themselves christians but who in their hearts know that regardless of what they may find in the OT, as christians they are bound to love the sinner while hating the sin (if they insist, most of us turn a blind eye since it's not for us to judge). It must be obvious to you that muslims do themselves no favors by rioting, destroying, causing mayhem and carrying out terrorist atrocities and doing so very specifically in the name of their god and their religion. It avails you nothing to persist in your attempt to draw comparisons between muslims rioting and christians doing whatever - very few riots, and none over religious disrespect, real or imagained.

It may be only a very few muslims who riot, but as with everything else, they are the ones who get the attention, and blacken the name of islam to the point where, yes, people do see the entire religion through that prism. It is for you to fix this problem - it is nothing to do with us in the west - it is an islamic phenomenon.

And BTW, in the west we tolerate opinions of all shades and types - we don't resort to name calling....get it??

[–] loverfellow 16 years ago

America and their alliances are actually promoting terrorism. What they are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan. They are killing women and children and sometime the whole family is killed except one is left. Now, tell me understanding his emotions, what that single person will do in life for whom no one is left to live for. Of course, he/she will go and kill the ones who have killed his/her entire family and relatives. Well, I still say that his action of suicide bombing and other means of mass killing would be wrong, but I bet anyone could do that suicide attack if he/she had faced such a situation. He/she can be easily brainwashed by anyone with some emotional comments and support. Now, you see if they stop killing innocent citizen for their personal gain then terrorism will be at the minimum.

I am a Wahabi (ahl-e-Hadith) Muslim but I strongly condemn the action of suicide bombing or other means of mass killing in which general innocent public of any nation is also killed. I admit that there are some organizations in Islamic world which are trying to misuse the concept of Jihad by brainwashing the survivors of brutally murdered families and whom loved ones no longer live. But the problem is that the persons committing suicide bombing are not those who are behind brainwashing but are those who have been brainwashed. Now, you see the core problem starts with massacre by America and their alliances. They are actually not trying to finish terrorism but are helping to promote it through their violent actions. These countries are just want to gain control to acquire the petroleum and other resources of Muslim countries. So, I can say, that its actually you people who are being brainwashed by your governments. I would just say think again about that with an open mind.

[–] bertrambunter 16 years ago

Oh right, loverfellow - well why don't you just kill us all then? That'd settle the problem, wouldn't it?? I mean to say, all those godless Americans who are forcing young men to strap bombs on theselves and take as many with them when they go as they can.

Oh just one thing - how come the muslims have been on the attack, waging war against infidels since the very start of the religion? I mean, there wasn't even an America when muslims commenced to slaughtering anyone who got in their way in their first attempt at world domination. Oh I know, it's because islam is the religion of peace and compassion - right, I've got it now!!!

[–] Gandalf886 14 years ago

Sigh.

The muslim "radicals" are practicing islam as their "prophet" Muhammad intended.

Christian "radicals" are acting in COMPLETE CONTRADICTION to the teachings of Christ.

"Try making a documentary taking the sh*t out of Jesus and if you honestly believe that the Christians will just let it air and sit back and laugh about the whole situation than you are very naive. "

I'd probably be very offended, but I wouldn't try to kill the producer. Do you think it's a mere coincidence that even though not all muslims are terrorists, basically all terrorists are muslim?

Everyone should see Islam for what it really is...

Q benci masyarakat

[–] reinvdbergh_ 16 years ago

Dutch cartoons? You mean Danish cartoons!?

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[–] mrcooldude10 16 years ago

Woops, sorry typo. It was about 2AM here when I was typing that.