The Apocalypse of Red John - The Mentalist (2008) Discussion

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

So... have you discarded the aspect you were so invested in last year, the Good/Evil yin/yang thing, how Heller had succeeded brilliantly in portraying Red John as the epitome of pure, ethereal evil, as an artistic myth?

How well does McAllister work in that department? (Although, since the comparison was made - yes, Partridge isn't exactly the type to fit that role perfectly, either.)

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[–] Dariush-ThePersian 10 years ago

ave you discarded the aspect you were so invested in last year, the Good/Evil yin/yang thing, how Heller had succeeded brilliantly in portraying Red John as the epitome of pure, ethereal evil, as an artistic myth?

how would you know what his aspect was?....you've only been here 2-3 months.

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

I'm like a ninja - even if you can't see me, you know I'm always there.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Dariush, am confident many like you/me/huebue can 'see' this 'whole thing'
But can be 'parts' in that whole which you/me/anyone may not understand
Might have a 'clear vision' but not know what we're looking at, how it 'fits'

Huebue, how much do you know about California/USA Culture/History
And how it's been represented/portrayed in our TV and Film Stories
Like symbolic archetype of a 'Frontier Sheriff' ... McAllister's Role
Well, he's not Marshall Dillion and damn sure ain't Opie's Dad

But Bruno's rendering of that Mythos ?
The Yin/Yang of this Good and Evil ?
Yea, Delicate Balancing Act, eh ?

Moi working on it

(smile)

.

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

Hm, won't call myself knowledgeable on that particular strand of cultural history, I only have a faint image based on the few movies and such I've seen over the years. I do see what you're getting at, although frankly I'm a little surprised that you'd bring up such a regional phenomenon as Heller's thematical motivator - with his proved capability on the Global Village level and all! I don't know how distinctly this Sheriff mythos or its variants are present in our global cultural understanding.

Naw, my main problem with McA is that he's... icky. He's a creep, and not in that quirky, even a bit lovable way Partridge was. I mean, Mca's just... the most unethereal person I can imagine. (And yes, I'm deeply in love with the expression "ethereal evil", which I've recently discovered as the perfect description of what Red John used to be.) Admittedly I haven't seen his appearance in any of the sixth season episodes, but what he was portrayed in the first season episode as was clumsy, stupid, redneck-y, unattractive, unlikable... Yeah, he's not exactly the arc type for a serial killer, but in a way it'd even make sense for him to be one of those nasty creepy-ass killer goons. But never, ever Red John. Red John was a self-proclaimed artist with a high sense of professional integrity. His work was theatre and cruel mind games. He was classy and intelligent right up to even mythical and superhuman extents. That's how he was introduced to us, that's the image we started this journey with.

I guess some could say that these kinds of extreme opposites go well together, but for the love of life I just can't see it.

And I believe one can find some reasonable cultural/symbolic level from almost everything, as you have done with McAllister and the man vs. nature dichotomy. I agree, it's a valid point of view and well worth reflecting. But the sheer dissonance between the essences of McAllister and Red John is just too flaring to be ignored.

Um, sorry if I seem to be trashing all of your arguments on this particular matter. It's just that to me the very thought of McA as Red John is downright offending and unacceptable... It sickens me. And I do want to be able to see other standpoints as well, but this is probably something I'll never be able to get over. It simply drives me over the edge.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Awww, keep going slow ... don't get ahead of 'stuff'

Like the Man v Nature ... was only applying that to Bugs/Elmer/RR
Using it as example of that 'process' of how/what to 'read/see', dig ?

Now, of what we can 'read/see' in PJ v RJ Story ?
Which 'process' to apply and how do we do that ?

Let's Run This Up a Flagpole, see if Plays in Peoria ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Run_it_up_the_flagpole
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Play_in_Peoria

The archetype/symbol of 'USA Sheriff' is in 'there' somewhere (obviously)
But exactly 'how/what' it symbolizes in 'Big Picture' of Mentalist/Global/etc ?
That part of 'stuff' still working on and then place in concert with 'other stuff'
Example - McA was 'a RJ' ... but 'The RJ' could be a morph of Blake Group, etc
Also again, the Guy in Mall could been the one who did kill PJ's Family, etc etc

Don't want to 'throw out' all the previous 'info/clues' we've gotten along the way
Just want to try a 'reinterpretation' which may fit more elegantly in some fashion
Tie up all those 'loose ends' which been bugging me, as well as a lotta other Folks
And REALLY bugging some folks a LOT, yea ? (and you know you are ... wink wink)
.

Ok, this may be a 'reach' but might hold some validity as example of the 'process' involving the 'Unique to Universal' ... Putin, he's about like some Sheriff from Old West here, gonna 'Clean up Dodge', get the 'Varmits Out of Town by Sundown', etc ... and McA/RJ/Blake Association are similar in their 'local redneck fashion' as they want to 'control their sphere of influence', but the pesky CBI is sticking their nose in something which McA/RJ/Blake'ers think is not CBI's concern, and that shows itself here in Real Life USA as 'States Rights v Federal Union' ... and Russia/Ukraine, well - you can fill in those 'blanks', yes ? (ty)

.... etc etc, any/all of 'that' make any sense ? (smile)

.

And ... 'Ethereal Evil'

Whoa ... Good Chit ... Love It

And about as 'Universal' as possible ... Literally, eh ?

Will need a lot of 'onion peeling' to reach that 'Deep Depth'

"Hey Waiter, bring a really big knife, this gonna take a while"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethereal_entity

(peel peel ;-)

.

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

Ah, okay... I thought you were referring to the fact that McAllister was a hunter, and the "human superiority arrogance" connotations that come with that... Seems like I didn't read the post thoroughly and made hasty conclusions, sorry. My attention span is like this short when it comes to the thought of McA as Red John - I'm over that edge now and just screaming stupid things at every direction on my way down. I've recently discovered a show that does an amazing job with a character that's basically the perfect, pure embodiment of this "ethereal evil" I've been going on about, and it reminds me of the original Red John so much that it's painful. And with all the mischievous rumors about Red John returning, it's a little bit on the surface right now. Too many lost chances for greatness.

Edit: Oh, and that Putin analogy is a great one! Yeah, I guess I can see where you're coming from with the sheriff thing. Truthfully I have a huge problem with the whole Blake Association thing, too... As it really has nothing to do with the original concept of Red John, and was mainly just a plot device hastily spun from the loose ends along the way. There were associates at the beginning, too, but their participation came from personal friendships or other kind of a relationship with Red John. I always found it more believable and frightening to think he could have such a personal influence on other people with his charisma alone, not through some Quid Pro Quo type deal in some organized criminal protection system.

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[–] Goldberryiswaiting 10 years ago

I'll bring up what I have brought up before ... McA is just not believable as someone who could inspire the women to fall for him, in the strange way that they were shown to "fall" for Red John. Uh uh ... just does not work. Not now, not ever!

Not believable.

So, McA, for just that reason alone, does not work as Red John. The Creator, ie Heller, *beep* up, big time.

But, that's just my opinion.

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

I couldn't agree more... He doesn't have a trace of that compelling charm one would think Red John would have to get people to do his bidding in such extreme manners. Not a trace!

Those kinds of unreal, mythical characters verging on perfection are one of the hardest elements to succeed in in the world of fiction, but giving The Mentalist's quirkily magical/fantastical nature, they would've had the rare chance to bring the thunder. And they did it, like no one else, for the first three seasons (or even four if we exclude that flop of a finale), but then... I just don't know what went wrong.

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[–] edisonnosidE 10 years ago

Remember: Red John (McAllister) claimed he had psychic (gurgle) (probably powers or abilities).
As such he would likely have some hypnotic influence as well, especially over women, but over men, as well.
I know that's sexist, but I'm referring to seduction here.

Don't underestimate being able to read minds and using that to manipulate people.

---->
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.
+ = !

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Gold and Hue ... Go Slow ... Don't Get Too Far Ahead

Even Moi has Trouble Shoveling My Bullchit THAT Fast

(wink ;-)

.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Gold and Hue and Everybody else too ..

Ain't Nothing Like a Great Metaphor ... Love 'Em
But sometimes Words are not enough, don't come close
Especially Today in Our Global Village, so let's Paint a Picture

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63b4O_2HCYM

(smile)

.

Just saw that earlier for first time during Soccer/Football Game
Yea, so many of those Euro Commercials are simply Magnifique

This one too ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChWaAfs1qMg

(arf arf)

.

And that Region is where Bruno Heller is from, his Roots Run Deep
And that some certain 'je ne sais quoi' is what he's brought to Mentalist
And what we can try to capture and describe in the 'process' of this Thread

But what Metaphor can do Justice to another Metaphor ?

And a Great One like Red John .

(shovel shovel ;-)

.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Ok ... Update, New Stuff, but with a 'twist'

Posted at DTH's Place ...

http://z6.invisionfree.com/BoardWithEverything/index.php?showtopic=412 6&view=findpost&p=22038696

Follow Link to get some great Joe Campbell Videos, Red John Stuff

And ... Goodies from last week's Episode 6.21 ... Black Hearts

(yea, just do it, like unwrapping presents on b-day, eh ? )

.

Now ... this is there, but ... Put it Here Too

Something of General Benefit for Everyone ... imho

Especially in the Xander RJ Thread started by DTH
And particularly for sub-thread within that Thread
(and bet you know who you are ... wink wink ;-)

Paraphrase of Joe Campbell from Heinrich Zimmer

- Best Stuff

What we may sense or feel ... but is unexplainable
We can never talk about it because it's beyond words

- Next

What is misunderstood as we try to explain
As we try to talk about what is beyond words

- Last

What we talk about

.

Again, DTH's Link

http://z6.invisionfree.com/BoardWithEverything/index.php?showtopic=412 6&view=findpost&p=22038696

.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Adaptation of Joe Campbell Quote

Just given by Brain Boy Reid on Criminal Minds Season Finale

We must be willing to let go of the Red John we had planned

So we can have the Red John who is waiting for us

.

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[–] rfhenderson13 10 years ago

I don't think you're wrong about McAllister being creepy but I do think you're wrong about his ability to inspire women to fall for him. McAllister may have appeared to be a country bumpkin sheriff but he was sheriff of Napa County. There is nothing either country or bumpkin about Napa County - it's wealthy and it's cultured - so he must have had some level of charm and finesse to get himself elected Sheriff.

Look at the creepy pick-up artist in S1/E14-Crimson Casanova. Did he look like someone who could inspire beautiful women to want to sleep with him? That guy was repulsive yet he was able to make many women want to sleep with him. Charisma isn't about appearance .......... after all, Adolph Hitler was charismatic. And look at the women that McAllister inspired to fall for him. Rebecca Anderson, Lorelei Martins and Rosalyn Harker - all of those women were damaged. How difficult would it be for them to become devoted to someone who could put a Band-Aid on their pain?

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

How about Gupta? He had nothing to do with TBA, yet he wasn't the weak and damaged woman type.

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[–] rfhenderson13 10 years ago

How would I know what Gupta's issue was? You're pinning your certainty that McAllister couldn't be Red John on an unimportant character who was part of a single episode. Every human being is living with some kind of fear, insecurity, pain and/or damage. Just like Patrick Jane, Red John was a master at pushing those buttons in the people who did his bidding.

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

Now now, don't get upset, I was only pointing out that Gupta was an exception in the weak woman follower stereotype, and asking how he fits into the big picture to you. :) Not pinning down anything here. Although I don't see how he was any less important a character than any other follower of Red John's.

What do you think about the numerous hints towards religious/existential aspects in Red John's work and his relationship with his followers?

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[–] rfhenderson13 10 years ago

No upset. I just see Gupta was an unimportant character in the storyline.

What do I think about the numerous hints towards religious/existential aspects in Red John's work and his relationship with his followers? Red John was nothing more than a charismatic leader and a charismatic leader can present a religious-type façade.

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

Well, of course I'm not saying that he's God or anything. What I meant is why was there any need for a religious element anyway? It's not like it'd just appear out of nowhere. If he wanted to keep up that kind of a facade, there must've been some kind of a reason for it. And was his mention of a "higher calling" in season 4 finale a part of that facade as well?

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[–] rfhenderson13 10 years ago

There was no need for a religious element. It was there because Red John viewed himself as a god-like being - somehow beyond the judgment or justice of man. As for the "higher calling" mention in the Season 4 finale, it was just part of the whole higher being façade. Or as Patrick Jane called it, Red John's "delusions of grandeur" ...........

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

Okay, so, uh, which one is it? You call it a facade but at the same time claim that Red John actually believed himself to be superhuman. You're misusing the word facade here.

I wouldn't want to nitpick, I'm just trying to see what you mean. So was he just tactfully manipulating his followers by using religious terminology or was he really delusional of himself? And if it was just claptrap, why would he keep it up when talking to Jane?

What I'm trying to get at is why the religious elements were strongly hinted at, but ultimately either forgotten about or ignored?

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[–] rfhenderson13 10 years ago

I used the word façade incorrectly - my apology. I didn't claim that Red John believed himself to be superhuman. I said that he believed that he was a god-like being - much like the leader of a cult does - and he saw himself as a higher being beyond the reach of the judgment and justice of man. Yes, he was manipulating his followers and yes, he was delusional about himself.

As for your last question, I don't think that the religious elements that were hinted at were either forgotten or ignored. Brett Stiles was a charismatic leader - hopefully for the good of those who belonged to his church. Red John was the same kind of leader without the intent to do good. They look exactly the same. Both look inside the empty places in their follower's souls and give them what they need to fill the emptiness. That is a religious experience.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Please, you two keep going ...

But a 'side note' for up the road

.

Henderson, you mention Hitler's Charisma

Are some 'sniffings' around that 'privately face to face' Adolf was anything but "charismatic", and his "Public Persona" was merely a creation of "Press Agent PR Handler Types" - who many say were the first to invent that 'activity' as we know it today.

(ok, ty, and now ... 'on the road again' ;-)

.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Ok ... just finished a little mini-rewatch ... parts of 606, 607 ... all of 608

Still need to do a Total Rewatch of the Entire Season 6 RJ Wrap, as well as all RJ Connected from Start of Series, before trying to present some 'Grand Theoretical Yada Yada' ... and confident many of you will be hanging on the edge of your seats waiting to read that, eh ? ... also hold off on thoughts about Religion/Theology/etc which recently came up in a yip yap with Eli and Goldberry in some 'hard core thread' (somewhere) but confident those connections are valid because of the scene in the Chapel where PJ/McA met, and earlier when we saw PJ looking at some specific Iconic Pictures/Statues/etc ... yea, something 'deep' going on with all those 'connects', but need that long handle shovel to get 'there'

For now, just a few particulars ... shed some light on this 'Definition of RJ and McA'

.

In one scene of 607, FBI Guy Reid Smith is interviewed by PJ, Lisbon

Reid talks about RJ and how he doesn't know who he is, none of the Blake'ers do, they just follow orders

About the Bosco shooting, he says, "Someone asked me to get FBI credentials so that they could access CBI. Red John or someone who worked for him snuck into the CBI and poisoned Rebecca."

Nota Bene ... "or someone who worked for him"

And now use same line of thought ...

Apply that to 'whoever' was with Blind Piano Lady
And other examples of some 'RJ Appearance' or 'RJ Related Activities'
Red John is like Easter Bunny or Santa Clause, He is Many and Everywhere
And the Blake Association will give him/them 'cover' to confuse any situation

As Reid later answered when PJ asked, "Who wanted you to get those credentials?"

"I don't know. It was a phone call. That's the way the Association works. You never know."

.

Then in Ep 608 ...

PJ is talking with McA in the Chapel about that 'explosion' and how McA faked his death

PJ says ... "Faking your own death was easy. Brett Partridge was Blake association. His job gave him access to the primary D.N.A. database. He switched your D.N.A. records ... etc etc"

McA replies ... "Very good. Your hindsight is 20/20."

Well, that settles it ... Partridge was a Blake'er, so he WAS a 'Red John'

And hopefully this gives closure to hints and foreshadowing going back to Ep 101
But if not ? ... then happy to 'arm rassle' over it later, but not at this moment, ty

.

And at End of 608, with PJ's hands on McA's throat, and the 'blink blinking'

PJ asks ... Are you sorry that you killed my wife and daughter ?

McA blinks twice for Yes ... but

Consider recent Thread about PJ/Lisbon when Abbott asked them questions
About the 'stunt' they pulled on the Bad Guy in the 'fake surgery set up' etc
And the Main Question of that Thread ... were PJ/Lisbon telling the 'truth' ?
Then the fun discussion of 'what is truth', how were questions 'formed' etc

Well ... now apply that same 'Courtroom Logic' to PJ's Question to McA

PJ did not ask him if HE did the killing, just if he was 'sorry' for it, dig ?
And McA did not do the killing, but like with Rebecca, he just ordered it
Then can say, yes he is 'sorry' that he ordered the killing of PJ's Family
Which could easily mean ... the Mall Guy ... he killed PJ's Family, DIG ?
Then as McA faces death, he sure is 'sorry' that he placed the order

"Blink Blink"

....

Well ... hope all 'that' does answer some questions about 'Who is RJ' ?
And how it can be Partridge and McA and Mall Guy and Many Others
How 'hints and clues' throughout Series can be 'properly satisfied'
And yes, maybe not all of the 'questions' are answered here, but
Some of the 'Major Ones' and same 'process' works for others
And all in the context of those 'Surface Narrative Plotlines'

And ... if want to get into some 'Metaphoricals' ?

Sure, here's one ... as CBI is 'shut down' when the FBI showed up
Think of that as symbolic of what happened to Bruno and Team
When CBS started shutting them down with move to Sundays

And the FBI Red John of that Real World Situation ?

CBS Les Moonbeam -vs- Patrick Jane Heller

Yea, do a rewatch, should 'catch' that 'read', easy to 'spot'
Shows in dialog and parallel situations, strong match up
Life Imitating Art and Art Imitating Life yin/yang stuff
And, imho ... Very Poetical, especially that 'Ending'
Revelation of what went on 'Behind the Curtain'

(blinky wink wink ;-)

.

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[–] myerhead 10 years ago

bc,

It will not come as much of a surprise to you, but I think you are tilting at windmills.

(Pause here while you write a 2-pg "synopsis" of how the writings contained in Don Quixote mirrored the first two seasons of The Mentalist)

1. In 6x07, it was Reede Smith who answered, "Yeah" after being asked if Red John was a member of the Blake Association. In other words, he knows RJ is a member. Later, whilst describing Rebecca, he said, "Red John had a follower... Rebecca Anderson." He then states, "Someone asked me to do them a favor..."

And LISBON interrupts and asks, "So Red John or someone who worked for him...." Smith didn't say it, Lisbon did.

2. Your Partridge explanation doesn't "settle" anything. According to the show, he was merely a BA member doing his job... switching DNA for another Blake Association member. As Smith said, "You're asked to do something, you do it!" Partridge was asked to do something, and he did it. Unfortunately for him, he then became a loose end which needed to be tied.

3. "Are YOU sorry YOU killed my wife and daughter?" Seems pretty clear to me. And the death of Jane's wife and daughter mirrors the M.O. we then saw from RJ in other "when you disparage me on tv, you die" killings. We saw the same thing with Jane's wife and daughter, the TV host with Kristina Frye, Kristina Frye, the San Joaquin Killer, etc. Red John also bragged about the Jane murders to Orville Tanner and to Jared Renfrew (and later, to Timothy Carter).

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Meyer ...

Ok, went back and did a 'relisten'

Yea, was Lisbon who said "or someone who works for him"
Sorry, my 'subs script' didn't specify, only has 'time stamps'

But, he essentially agreed, so no biggie in sense of Big Picture

Was simply using that as reference in regards to the idea/belief many have that the 'Same Individual RJ' personally did every killing involving anything with RJ. Like in posts/threads which say - someone described 'him' as this tall, while someone else described 'him' as that tall - then Folks argue about the apparent contradiction. This Scene and that 'statement' provides an example of how 'He' is many and everywhere, etc etc

Of Partridge ... aside from any 'preferences of storyline design', capeesh ?

Was only pointing out something I missed in my original 'paying attentions'

That he was an Association Member, which qualifies him to be called 'an RJ'

(imho)

And of your EMPHATIC YOUs ?

Sorry, not what my ear hears

But ... YOU decide

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEBFK9koVW4

And in an effort to help Don Quixote

Wonder what McA would have said if allowed to talk ?

If he'd told a story, like how the Mall Guy did, dig ?

And not just give simple yes/no answers, eh ?

(tilt tilt ;-)

.

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[–] pianoRose 10 years ago

ah, geez, I was perfectly happy to live in denial that the RJ debacle ever happened. I was going to revisit the entire series as if the only story arc was JISBON. hahaha (and I wasn't invested in RJ being any particular person)

BUT the idea of many makes it all work out -- though Heller did say he didn't know who Red John was. Possible fodder for season 7? in that he did say season 7 will be for the fans. Perhaps he will try to smooth that over?

Was 6 x 8 the only time we hear Jane's wife's name is Angela?

"Love is like a friendship caught on fire." -Jeremy Taylor

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[–] Darryl The Hitman 10 years ago

If it's for the fans, then this fan will hope to see Brett Partridge revealed as the one true RJ.

Feel free to visit the board I own at http://z6.invisionfree.com/boardwitheverything :)

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[–] Darryl The Hitman 10 years ago

I think they showed her tombstone in 4X23--the one where RJ asked Jane if he gave up through the little girl. I would assume they also mentioned her name in the episode where he has to clear his brother-in-law of murder. I could be wrong on both counts though!

Feel free to visit the board I own at http://z6.invisionfree.com/boardwitheverything :)

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[–] pianoRose 10 years ago

I sort of remember the tombstone--I thought it was not very detailed or partially hidden from view. I'm weird I try to read the tombstones (and other details) in tv shows.

I don't know about the other episode. It was odd how he always referred to my wife and child and not their names. Did we know Charlotte's name before she showed up?

"Love is like a friendship caught on fire." -Jeremy Taylor

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[–] Darryl The Hitman 10 years ago

Again, other than the episode with the BIL, I don't know off the top of my head. I bet myerhead would know.

Feel free to visit the board I own at http://z6.invisionfree.com/boardwitheverything :)

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Hummm, seems along 'The Way'

(tao)

On several occasions we were told Angela and Charlotte's Names
But yes, maybe Meyer can give us specifics of Ep#s ... that 'head'

Interesting, hadn't noticed or thought of this till now

"Angela" ... just drop that last 'a', eh ?

And Apocalyptic Catch on Name Stuff while reviewing

During the yip yap in Chapel ... McA calls PJ ... "Pat"

First and Only time for that from anyone ... yea ?

And Darryl My Little DTH Grasshopper Partridge in a Pear Tree

Sorry, hope one day you will get over idea of Single Boss as RJ

But try this on for potential of how BP could be one of Big Bosses

As Coroner Stuff ... he kinda had 'final clearance' of who/what/etc

Easy to imagine he was 'in' on most everything that happened, dig?

And will that maybe help you elevate your efforts at your 'Wind Mills'

... eh ?

(tilt a wink, tilt a wink, snark ;-)

.

Oh, and PS Rose ... you want 'weird' ?

Check my posts in one or two threads around this place

Then check a couple of 2 gig hard drives got here somewhere

Will find 'close up freeze frame pics' of Bookshelves and whatnot

Looking for Book Titles and other stuff like that as Hints/Clues/etc

And still have couple of 'open pages' PJ was reading, just can't quite

(grrrrrrr)

.

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[–] Darryl The Hitman 10 years ago

For me, it's simply not as satisfying nor nearly as much fun if the Big Bad can be multiple people. I love the idea of using the clues to eliminate all the other suspects until you are left with one killer. Having multiple possible culprits/villains cheapens it all for me unless that's the whole point, like it was with Murder On The Orient Express.

Feel free to visit the board I own at http://z6.invisionfree.com/boardwitheverything :)

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[–] edisonnosidE 10 years ago

(blink, blink)

---->
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.
+ = !

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[–] Darryl The Hitman 10 years ago

You got me there, ed--what does your post mean exactly? :)

Feel free to visit the board I own at http://z6.invisionfree.com/boardwitheverything :)

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[–] edisonnosidE 10 years ago

Blink twice for yes.....

Means I agree with you.

---->
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.
+ = !

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[–] Darryl The Hitman 10 years ago

ah thanks for the clarification! :)

Feel free to visit the board I own at http://z6.invisionfree.com/boardwitheverything :)

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Ok, can 'see' that, and do love the Orient Express example. AND, had a suspicion about that, you go read entry at Wiki to also confirm ... regards Reception to the Solution Climax, etc ... The Guardian and Raymond Chandler's in particular are, ahem ... interesting (wink).

Now, what I'm still confident about, and it got re-confirmed last night with that mini-review ... this 'Multiple Idea' can 'work', but not so much in some 'typical fashion' (like with Agatha, for example, and was she the one who invented that 'multiple murderer motif' ?) ... and do need to have more rewatches and more dig digs, cause the 'real story and solution' (imho) is not merely some RJ Murderer(s), but the connection to Blake Association with its Groupthink, and not only as 'artistic metaphor' but also as exemplified in Real World of MI-6/NSA and similar groups/activities, including Mass Media Newspeak Empires of CBSLes and Foxy Murdoch, etc ... and now with Internet, add Microsoft and others who did not give us 'better tech' but just wanted to make more money (RJ) and compare that to Apple's Change the World (PJ) ... on and on, and of course all this is 'imho', but believe that 'opinion' is a good one to have in this exploration of the Mentalist (smiley ty)

.

Ha, figures ... Ed da Blinky Blinky Sun Rise making me 'PS'

Yea, YOU be careful ... you and all your 'kitty kitty' friends

(meow meow meow)

.

AND ... Big Time PSS ... Darryl, Everyone ...

Follow up to Raymond Chandler reference above about Agatha

Go Here ... Read about this, find read 'whole thing' if can ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Simple_Art_of_Murder

Stupid Me and Ignorance, if had any idea that existed, not know

The essay is considered a seminal piece of literary criticism. Although Chandler's primary topic is the art (and failings) of detective fiction, he touches on general literature and modern society as well.

And get as pdf, right click save/download, read online
copy/past as text ...etc etc, skin cat any way can
easy read 11 page essay ... just do it

http://2011writinginplace.wikispaces.com/file/view/Raymond+Chandler+-+ The+Simple+Art+of+Murder.pdf/237122976/Raymond%20Chandler%20-%20The%20 Simple%20Art%20of%20Murder.pdf

.

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[–] myerhead 10 years ago

If Red John is many... or if Red John is a 'groupthink' concept... or if a 'new' Red John takes over command once an 'old' Red John has run his course, is killed, is arrested, etc, that idea has legs and is interesting. It could explain a lot of the loose ends never tied up by the time the Red John arc came to a crashing halt.

Hence, you would expect the show's creator to use this concept as explanation to make himself appear better in the press. Instead, when vilified by the press and the general public, the best he could do was to weakly say the person chosen to play Red John was only chosen a year or two ago... and he had 3 or 4 candidates he was thinking about.

Then he went on to explain that most serial killers are just sad men we expect are much more interesting than they actually are... and said any explanation of what went on in the background makes "good internet fodder" but isn't really interesting.

In short, he couldn't have come across any more poorly after "Red John" aired. He desperately needed something to redeem himself. If "groupthink" was true, Heller would have mentioned the possibility at that time or sometime shortly thereafter. Instead, he simply took his beatings and moved on to "Gotham".

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

Agreed. Even if the "groupthink/Red John is many" concept had been the basis of how they structured the storyline all along, there would have to have been several hints and clues to something of that sort from the beginning. If we exclude the vague "He is mar/man(y)" clue, which is completely open to interpretation by the way, there has been nothing hinting towards the possibility of several Red Johns - instead, they made the game between Jane and Red John very, very personal, thus strenghtening the idea of a single individual behind his work. And anyway, in that case the fact that the chase was an homage to the Holmes/Moriarty dichotomy, which Heller himself stated several times in the early years, would've been terribly executed. Terribly.

It's a decent theory, sure, and could give us many answers on how Red John did what he did, but I think the reality is pretty much what Heller himself has said: the fanbase has just paid far more attention to the Red John storyline than he has himself.

And if, just if, the idea actually did hold true in the end game, and if Heller had stated that the groupthink is the answer to all the open questions about Red John, it would scream of a Plan B type of a solution to things, something that they made up when they realized there was no other way out of the corner they've painted themselves into. So while it would've given us concrete answers, it would've still felt pretty weak, in my honest opinion.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Scroll down to bottom here, somewhere

Reply needs spacing for poetics etc, sorry

... ty
.

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[–] edisonnosidE 10 years ago

Take out the head, and the body dies.

(We hope) (With references to Bin Laden as well as RJ)

~~~~~~~o-<
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.
+ =

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Read this ... same 'thing' ...

http://www.historytoday.com/ian-kershaw/hitler-myth

And 'it' is as old as the hills

(goes back to that 'cousin' of yours Ed, with the 'apple tree' ... wink)

.

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[–] edisonnosidE 10 years ago

Kitten, kitten
Playing right
In the household
Where there's mice,

What capricious
Kitty lover
Made you frisky
made you a rover?

---->
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.
+ = !

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Good ... YOU 'Snake Man' ... you take 'point' on this with bunch up yonder

Not sure they understand (yet) what it means to 'Stay on the Fking Boat'

And hope like 'ell they don't learn the 'hard way', eh ?

( ¿ well ? )

.

Now after we're confident and 110% fersure the 'path is clear', ok 128.37%

Then expect you to bring out all your Anthropologicals and other Kitty Kittys

Use them to elucidate, expungigate, exasterbate, eliminate and exterminate

Any and all 'micey type thingys' which are hiding in that 'undergrowthy stuff'

Then we take the Dorothys and Grasshoppers on a step by step by step walk

Of the twisting turning confusing 6+ Year Yellow Brick Road Taoistic Journey

That Bruno and PJ and RJ and Cho and Lisbon and Big Red and Rigsby, et als

Have all been traveling, walking, exploring, scouting, sniffing, and snoopings

And then we can all meet back at the ranch, live happily ever after, The End

... sound like a plan ?

(blink . . blink blink)

.

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[–] edisonnosidE 10 years ago

Only if you come pick up the rat heads and tails and desiccated lizards....

(meow meow)

---->
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.
+ = !

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[–] edisonnosidE 10 years ago

Oh, I forgot. The path is NEVER clear, no matter how many times you sweep it.
Either you miss something, or someone new drops some chit.

I never miss ANYTHING (hyper vigilance), but I can't help it if no one believes me.

---->
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.
+ = !

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kxlezdRbXO1qaukck.png

Yea ... and you know them 'differences'

(kitty kitty ;-)

.

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[–] edisonnosidE 10 years ago

Meow, meow. It doesn't include "sheet you know that no one else knows," unless that's the white parts of the circle.

White = might = right = uptight (no racial references intended).

---->
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.
+ = !

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[–] Goldberryiswaiting 10 years ago

I agree, Darryl! Like fighting the Borg in Star Trek, v.s. fighting Khan.

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[–] myerhead 10 years ago

Was 6 x 8 the only time we hear Jane's wife's name is Angela?

We first learned the name of Angela and Charlotte Anne in "Cackle-Bladder Blood", episode 3x02. In that episode, Angela's brother, Danny Ruskin, is in trouble and requests Jane's help. Danny refers to Angela as 'Annie'. During the episode, the two men visit the gravesites, and the Jane's tombstones are shown for the first time. As Darryl mentioned, the tombstones are visited again by Jane in 4x23.

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[–] pianoRose 10 years ago

thanks myer!

"Love is like a friendship caught on fire." -Jeremy Taylor

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Meyer ... Hue ... Me too and probably Everyone

We've got to be careful about which part of what we're trying to talk about

- Some TV Show Story and it's surface elements of plot, setting, characters, etc

- Some TV Show Story and it's underlying meanings, symbols, metaphors, wink winks

- Some TV Show and the story of how it gets made and the Show Biz Biz involved, etc etc

- Some Real World Story we all live in and deal with on all of those same levels/things above

Yea, complicated stuff on one hand, easy on another, and often difficult to know which and when

And for me what makes the Mentalist so very worthy of our Paying Attentions on all these matters

Then worthier to come here and try to share our thoughts, ideas, seeings, all this 'stuff' we try to do

And as some poet once said, sorta ...

Some days are for sowing, some days for reaping, other days just sit and watch it grow

Well, could add another to that, and what I need to do today ... go plow some more

That Raymond Chandler Essay is Good Field, now come here Mule ... dagnabbit

(and giddy up ;-)

.

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

Well... I, for one, tend to think that those levels can't always be separated, or examined as such. If the symbolic-metaphoric level is handled properly, it should show on the surface level as well. And if people need the metaphors cut into little pieces and spoonfed to them instead of them being able to see or at least get some kind of an intuitive familiar feeling of them from the surface by themselves, no, I don't think they're handled properly.

That's why I've been advising you to take people's disappointment seriously into account instead of shrugging it off like it's just a sign of people not having understood everything.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Naw, not trying to shrug off anything ... and know you know the 'problem'

Simple matter of what you say, "those levels can't always be separated"

Which is tough enough for us to do in our own minds and thinking, etc

Even tougher to put into words ... then share with others ? ... yikes

(smile)

.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'

For Now ... follow this link to DTH's ... watch and read what's there

http://z6.invisionfree.com/BoardWithEverything/index.php?showtopic=484 2&view=findpost&p=22039674

Back later with more

(smile)

.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Re-Follow that Link above to DTH's Place

Added few more Bread Crumbs to Yellow Brick Road

Maybe make it easier for Dorothy to keep up, not get lost

(and her little dog too ... arf arf ;-)

.

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[–] myerhead 10 years ago

Jane strangled McAllister with his left hand because he was holding the gun with his right. If McA made any sort of "comeback attempt" (think pro wrestling.... Ref: "One! Two!..." (opponent tossed off before the Three Count)), Jane had him covered.

Sure, McA was shot and had bled a lot and had run a lot... but at the time McA collapsed, Jane wasn't 100% certain how much strength McA had left or even if he may have been bluffing. It was smart to stay dominant with the most-deadly weapon (gun) and strangle with the less-dominant (left).

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[–] edisonnosidE 10 years ago

And with an inverted watch on that left hand. (maybe cause he's from 'down under?')
I don't recall Jane with a watch before.

---->
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.
+ = !

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Meyer ... yea, that could 'work', would 'add up' in the 'total picture' as an explanation, etc

But does seem 'curious' ... one handed strangle not easy, and McA not some 'skinny neck'

Then to add to it 'left hand' ... gave a wiki link with some info about that, is a 'way backer'

Would need to do a 'dig dig' in my Old Latinae Stuff for 'exact details', but ... the original meaning/usage of 'left' connects to 'malevolent/bad/etc' ... why folks shake hands with Right, and kids discouraged from using left hand as learn to write, draw, etc ... but again, check those wiki's and other info, has a 'deep significance' ... and for PJ to use his Left for that ? ... yea, more than just 'happen chance', imho, was by some design of 'Artistic Statement' (etc yada yada)

And Ed ... yea, that damn watch ... did a quickie looky of this Episode going back to Chapel ... PJ was wearing it then, did show up, but curious to me ... wouldn't it get in the way ? be a hinderance to his 'magical schtick' ? make it more difficult to pull that pigeon out of his suit ? ... etc etc ?

And now need to look at other past Episodes

Put that watch on the List of Paying Attentions

(and like that list wasn't long enough already ... grrrrrr ;-)
.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Double Posting of this Very Worthy Tribute

http://z6.invisionfree.com/BoardWithEverything/index.php?showtopic=483 2&view=findpost&p=22039765

Go 'there' ... Visualize that 'Red John Reality'

.

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[–] edisonnosidE 10 years ago

I used to wear my watch 'inside' cause I kept banging it on things (also interfered with left wrist block to RH punches). Then I found I broke more watch faces by lifting things. Time to go sapphire crystal. No more room in my pockets'es for a pocket watch.

---->
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.
+ = !

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
From Rigsby Thread about Shot in Chest ... that Scene Review

Rigsby wearing watch on his Right Hand ... he Left Handed ?

If so ? ... never noticed before ... anyone else see/know ?

Now curious of all the Major Players ... who's R/L etc ?

No exact idea how it can 'matter', but seems it might ?

Especially in sense of 'magic trick sleight of hand stuff'

What Show is all about ... literally and figuratively, eh ?

(yea, keep eye on that wabbit ... ain't up the sleeve ;-)

.

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[–] Darryl The Hitman 10 years ago

I've worn my watch on my left wrist for 29 years for one reason:

http://outofmymind.scanlen.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/BTTF-All3Pos ters.jpg

Feel free to visit the board I own at http://z6.invisionfree.com/boardwitheverything :)

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[–] edisonnosidE 10 years ago

Poor poseur. To imitate the the unreal?

It's OK. No REASON isn't needed. Just don't let people "should" all over you. "Do what thou wilt is the whole of the law..."

Oops, "shall be" not "is."

Right wrist = believe time is not real.
Left wrist = recognize time is not real.
Or, vice versa, whether your brain is backward or forward or if you are split-brain.

Or (unbelievably) It don't mean shoot!
What is comfortable, convenient.... Of course the psychos (you know who you are) will say otherwise.

---->
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.
+ = !

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[–] Darryl The Hitman 10 years ago

I love the movies so I love having my watch on the left wrist as it makes me smile whenever I check the time (especially if I happen to be wearing shades). :)

Feel free to visit the board I own at http://z6.invisionfree.com/boardwitheverything :)

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[–] edisonnosidE 10 years ago

Shades? Oh yeah, they make me smile.
Polarized shades make it impossible to see my computer, my iPod, my digital dashboard... unless, I twist my head to one side or another...
Not a bad idea, after all.

---->
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.
+ = !

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Well aside from any list to port or starboard

(arrrr matey, aye)

This 'psycho' be curious ...

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/dcr/lowres/techno logy-hourglass-timepiece-time_piece-watch-digital_time-dcrn730l.jpg

Now Cue Eli ...

"Time is a Flat Circle"

As we go "Forward Into the Past"

In some Red Maple Igloo Tardis, eh ?

(and thought the RJ Arc was hard to figure out ... grrrrrrr ;-)

.

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[–] edisonnosidE 10 years ago

But does seem 'curious' ... one handed strangle not easy, and McA not some 'skinny neck'

Thumb and middle finger generally adequate. PJ has long fingers, to boot.

Been there, done that, though the MP's dragged me off in time. The guy died a month later - brain aneurism - sheet, not my fault! (Though I did try). I was doing a kung fu move I learned that choked and strangled at the same time. He was a black belt in taekwondo, but I would have killed him in another minute, he had no effective defense.... Glad I didn't: the VA had my mind messed up on drugs. I wouldn't do anything like that today.

---->
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.
+ = !

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Hummm ... well, as I know, and confident you know too

Thumb alone, or even a Single Finger, can be 'more than enough'

As long as adequately applied in the correct location ... all that 'stuff'

And, depending (etc) ... may only need a 'quickie pokey' ... pop fizz, eh ?

Which had done to me one time, but in, ahem ... 'practice funsies' (whew)

Now, ahem ... 'Snaker Who Will Man Up and Hold His Post' (etc ... wink)

'Other Guy' ... if you had 'backed off', would he done the 'same' ? ... dig ?

Uh huh, what figure ... so sounds like it was 'Simple Case of Self Defense'

And sorry for him ... but if can't dance the dance ... then stay off the floor

Cause 'Real RJ Stuff' ... yea, ain't some rasslin' tv show kayfabe play game

(next case please, ty ;-)

.

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[–] edisonnosidE 10 years ago

'Other Guy' ... if you had 'backed off', would he done the 'same' ? ... dig ?

He was already trying, with a solar plexus move I'm unfamiliar with. It didn't work. I think he was already weak and dazed.
Not self-defense; I was medico-psycho. No jail time, just a scolding and community service. I stopped the medication (Paxcil) and became normal peaceful Snake again.

---->
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.
+ = !

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Goldberry ... . yea, there ... and Ed . . yea, there

Red John is that 'thing' in us all, what Edison was up against

And been 'there' myself, once or twice, but please don't ask

And when are 'there' ... it is pure reflex/survival/something

Ed will agree, sure hope none of you never have to 'face' it

And 'Great Art' can capture a taste ... give a brief glimpse

But all it can do ... and you Ladies know this same 'Truth'

From that other yin/yang 'thing' us Men will never know

That thing called a 'little bit pregnant' ... wink wink ;-)

.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
http://z6.invisionfree.com/BoardWithEverything/index.php?showtopic=484 2&view=findpost&p=22039905
.

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[–] Goldberryiswaiting 10 years ago

Perhaps Red John is an Evil Spirit that jumps from body to body - like in that scary Denzel Washington movie, "Fallen"?

Would not be my favorite ending to this story arc, but better (IMO) than McA as Red John. And, they (our favorite Mentalist characters) would have quite a fun time figuring this out, too : >)

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Goldberry ... just going here with this behind you for 'basic reason' that you're the 'last in line' ... so no flection or reflection on anything you posted above (wink) ... however, you did get my attention with Denzel's Fallen, is in my 'pile' and probably watched it back along the way, but now put it on 'rewatch' after did a wiki sniff for 'details, memory palace jog', yea, good stuff, ty ;-)

.

Now Folks ...

And all of you be careful ... send me sniffing around at Wiki ... digging in that 'Literary Memory Palace' of stuff not thought about in a lotta years, and well ...

Regarding the, ahem ...

"Debacle" of the Red John Arc

The Utter Catastrophe of the Entire Series

Like keep telling ya'll ... may not be 'there' yet

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catastrophe_(drama)

So Please, keep that in mind and always remember ...

Careful What You Seek ... Might Find It

(smile)

.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Seek-eth This-eth

http://z6.invisionfree.com/BoardWithEverything/index.php?showtopic=484 2&view=findpost&p=22040256

(and Praise-eth the Blake-eth RJ-eth ... amen-eth ;-)

.

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[–] Goldberryiswaiting 10 years ago

Enjoy the revisit, bcthedj! Fallen is one of the creepiest movies I remember viewing, that I will still re-watch, because it is THAT good :>)

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Goldberry ... Everyone

Again, go 'here' ... then read and 'watch/listen/see'

http://z6.invisionfree.com/BoardWithEverything/index.php?showtopic=484 2&view=findpost&p=22040264

(yea, makes it easier for me/you/all of us to enjoy that 'one stop shopping' ... smile)

.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
http://z6.invisionfree.com/BoardWithEverything/index.php?showtopic=484 2&view=findpost&p=22040409
.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Goldberry ...

Finally, just watched "Fallen" ... Holy Chit ... Literally

All those Blake Association Mentalist Direct Connects

And that Groupthink Magic with 'You Know Who' .

AND the 'Ending', but of course, apocalyptic-purriffic

(tyger tyger ;-)

.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Once again ... climb aboard this DTH Tardis Link

http://z6.invisionfree.com/BoardWithEverything/index.php?showtopic=484 2&view=findpost&p=22040773

But first make sure you 'clean your glasses'

Might 'see' more about 'You Know Who' .

(winky blinky ;-)

.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
This is posted elsewhere too, but do it here too

http://z6.invisionfree.com/BoardWithEverything/index.php?showtopic=483 2&view=findpost&p=22041058

(yea ... RJ likes them 'double twos', have xtra on 'back up' ;-)

.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Hey Folks ...

Been busy chasing Super Hi-Def 1080 RJ/Blake'ers in the 'cough ahems' and almost/finally 'there' (and talk about a 'debacle', but even that can be overcome by clever 'arrrr matey stuff' ... aye ;-)

And about to (also, finally) start the 'Total Review/Rewatch' of ALL the RJ/Blake Connected Episodes in Entire Series, seems are about 50 to 75 or 80 (ish) ... so will be (again) busy with that for couple/few weeks, and not able to join in the conversation here (boo hoo hoo)

But, in the meantime ... please allow me to leave everyone with a question ?

(thank you)

Especially for those of you who think the 'RJ Stuff' is/was a 'debacle'

And also for those who are 'firmly focused' on RJ as Just One Person

As opposed to 'He is Many' or 'He is More' (etc)

Santa Claus ? ... is there Only One ?

Only One Easter Bunny ?

One Tooth Fairy ?

One Christ or Christo ?

One Great Spirit ? .. what is the Name ... God, Allah, Jehovah ?

One Buddha ? ... yea, was 'one guy' who 'started it', but read to learn the 'whole story' (ty)

.... etc etc

Ok, work on 'those' ... then we'll talk later about RJ and Blake'ers

(smile)

.

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[–] Darryl The Hitman 10 years ago

If we accept that there is more than one RJ (and I do not) and if we accept that Timothy Carter was the RJ that killed Patrick's family--then why did McA say he was sorry for killing Patrick's family if he never actually did it?

Feel free to visit the board I own at http://z6.invisionfree.com/boardwitheverything :)

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Your Honor ... If It Please The Court

The 'Answers' above (and below) are 'Non Responsive'

Questions were about Santa/Easter Bunny/Tooth Fairy/etc

Nothing was asked about Red John or any of that Mentalist Stuff

(harumph harumph ;-)

.

And Quickie Correction for Darryl ...

McA never "said" anything to PJ ... those 'eye blinks' are open to various interpretations due to the yes/no structure of the 'inquiry'. Wonder what we/PJ might have learned if a 'conversation' ? ... like for example - McA's "sorry" was for giving the 'order/approval/go ahead' of Carter's Hands On Action ... or another example - Carter was 'acting alone' (off the chain of the Blake Association 'Rules') and McA was "sorry" for not keeping track of Carter's activities; controlling him; rein him in (etc etc)

.

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[–] Darryl The Hitman 10 years ago

He asked if he was sorry for killing them--if he didn't kill them, he shouldn't have blinked yes.

Feel free to visit the board I own at http://z6.invisionfree.com/boardwitheverything :)

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

There's something that I miserably fail to understand in your way of thinking... If Red John was many to begin with, what's the point of establishing a very individualistic serial killer signature and style of killing? And why would several different Red Johns continue to personally taunt Jane even at the risk of getting caught, if it in the end wasn't personal?

Let's take S1 finale for an example. I take it that you see Roy Tagliaferro and Timothy Carter as two different people, since Carter doesn't fit Rosalind's description, and that Carter was the one who killed Jane's family. Why would someone who has no personal connection whatsoever to Jane go through so much trouble to capture him? Remember that Tagliaferro was the one who was fond of Bach, so he was obviously also the one who played the dangerous game of cat and mouse with Jane in S2E8 (since Jane was led to the missing corpse by Bach's music), which was one of the biggest risks he's ever taken - all just for the heck of it. It was stated by Rebecca that Red John missed Jane and wanted him back on his case. That, if anything, was personal. So this army of strangers just happens to be simultaneously obsessed with Jane? How does that make any sense?

Also, a quickie correction for you - McA's blinks had, in all probability, no other motivation than to plead for his life. There's no way he would've answered otherwise, regardless of what he has or hasn't done. That should be a given... It doesn't prove jack, really.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Worthy Questions and Observations and Wonderings (imho) ... Thank You

How can it "make any sense" ? ... dunno, why am asking/seeking the 'same' (essentially), and for now simply trying to do what Ed and I were yapping about before - just Collect all the Dots ... later can Connect

But (sad to say) am half amazed that some here (and you know who you are, wink wink) have (apparently) not only Collected ALL of their Dots, they've completed their Connections and Chiseled Everything in some Debacle Stone (case closed, next case ... and the Easter Bunny can go hide Eggs somewhere else on Christmas Morning, snark)

And blinky eye "talk" while someone's got their hands around someone else's throat ?

Yea, Folks will often "say" all kinds of things in those kind of situations

I sure did that time a guy had a knife in my face

(no smile)

.

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

You've got a good point there with collecting before connecting. Just be sure to remember that when you do your re-watch - don't let your idea of "he is many" become a prejudice that'll get in the way of your impartiality. Keep your mind as open as you ever can is my advice to you.

And naw, naw man, I'm ready to say this to you for the hundredth time: The word debacle is first and foremost a description of how we feel. It's an initial reaction to what for now seems to be, or at least was strongly marketed as, the ending of the main storyline, on an emotional level. I'm pretty sure no one here is claiming to be completely fair and impartial with their judgement, since levels of anger and disappointment this epic are bound to cloud it to an extent. Everyone's pretty much aware of that. You're mixing apples with oranges here. Even if you were miraculously able to explain the storyline so that it would suddenly make sense, it still wouldn't change how we feel one bit. That's just how human psychology rolls.

Apparently you weren't as invested in the show on a personal, emotional level as the rest of us, so it's understandable that from your point of view our collective declaration of war upon Heller's ass seems absurd. It goes both ways, though, because I'm utterly unable to see how someone who has followed the show as attentively as you can not be furious about that horrid clusterfu*k of a wrap-up.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Curious about your Idea (and 2nd mention)

Emotional Investment and Involvement (etc etc)

On one Yang can say ... is a TV Show, what's the Big Deal ?

But on the other Yin goes into 'stuff' that Plato and Aristotle etc

Been thinking about and figuring on for more than 2,000+ years

And now gets more complicated with Cinema and 'Virtual Reality'

Yep, some Deep Chit ... but if wanna Dig into it ? ... No Problem

Just be sure to bring a Long Handle Shovel

(smile)

.

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

I think most of us have well understood what you mean with your "Red John is Many" idea, and that analogy just there didn't really bring any new enlightenment to the definition. Doesn't affect my stand one bit, unfortunately, and if you've read any of my responses in regard to this matter, you should surely know why. There's a phrase in Finnish that could be roughly translated as spelling it out with iron wire, which pretty much means shoving a simplified explanation repeatedly down someone's throat. I think that's kind of what you're doing here. :D Man, tell me something I don't know!

But here's a counter-question for you: if Red John was to come back at some point in season seven, revealed to be just a single individual, and all the unanswered questions and mysteries were to be explored in a logical and satisfactory manner - thus, there'd be no need for the "many" aspect as an explanative factor - would that change your take on the whole thing, and would you be happy with it? My point is, are you satisfied with the "many" element remaining as a thematic aspect, or are you in fact trying to turn it into an actual plot point?

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[–] myerhead 10 years ago

bc never answers our follow-up questions to his "he is many" theory.

Another question he hasn't answered is if the show ends as planned after Season 7, with no further explanation of RJ/Groupthink/many/etc, would he finally conclude that the RJ saga ended as everyone involved with the show has said it ended -- in episode 6x08 with McAllister as the singular Red John?

Or would he continue tilting at windmills, insisting RJ was many, but Heller was 'forced' by TPTB at CBS to end it at 6x08 and never re-visit it?

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Everyone ... but probably more to the 'Debaclers'

(and you know who you are ;-)

Finished (or phinished) 'Rewatch/Review'

And not just RJ Connected, but Entire Series

Cause ALL Episodes are 'RJ Connected' (imho)

And gotta say this, and said it before ...

Mentalist takes 'debacle' to an Art Form

(beep beep)

But need some sleep now, been a long week (yawn)

So bear with me, later will post all my 'reads and tells'

And here's couple of 'hint hint wink winks' in meantime

Watch 1st 3 Episodes 101, 102, 103 ... Series in Nutshell

(some of you should instantly Visualize how that 'works')

And ... Nota Bene

The Book FBI Lady was reading when she/PJ met in 609

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Daughter_of_Time

Is about ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princes_in_the_Tower

Wiki says ...

The book explores how history is constructed, and how certain versions of events come to be widely accepted as the truth, despite a lack of evidence. The "Daughter of Time" of the title is a quotation from the work of Sir Francis Bacon: "Truth is the daughter of time, not of authority."

Written by ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephine_Tey

Wiki passes along this Quote about Tey ...

... what she loves above all is to show that things are very often not what they seem to be, that we are too easily fooled, that ready acceptance of conventional wisdom is not just dangerous, but a result of laziness, incuriosity and of a resistance to reason.

Here's the Scene(s) at Beach Bar ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PA4mmi2rM1Y

And check with PJ, betcha he'll loan you the Book after he's done

(kitty kitty)

.

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

Brace yourselves - bc's final attempt to convince us is coming!

I stand ready. Bring it.

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[–] Darryl The Hitman 10 years ago

what she loves above all is to show that things are very often not what they seem to be, that we are too easily fooled, that ready acceptance of conventional wisdom is not just dangerous, but a result of laziness, incuriosity and of a resistance to reason.

Yes we are hoping that there is more to the debacle than there seems to be. We are curious that there might be something satisfying instead of the debacle as we do not readily accept the foolish resistance to reason that we got in the form of the debacle.

Feel free to visit the board I own at http://z6.invisionfree.com/boardwitheverything :)

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[–] Darryl The Hitman 10 years ago

certain versions of events come to be widely accepted as the truth, despite a lack of evidence.

Just as we've been asked to accept McA as RJ, despite a total lack of evidence.

Feel free to visit the board I own at http://z6.invisionfree.com/boardwitheverything :)

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

Yep, 's what I thought when I saw the quote. Thought I doubt that's what bc's implying. Or if he is, then the only thing we can do is put our hope in the upcoming season... Now that's something I would gladly join him in doing.

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[–] Darryl The Hitman 10 years ago

Brace yourselves - bc's final attempt to convince us is coming!

I stand ready. Bring it.

http://static1.gamespot.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_medium/1188/11888 561/2562405-6086807432-Happe.gif

Feel free to visit the board I own at http://z6.invisionfree.com/boardwitheverything :)

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[–] myerhead 10 years ago

In my opinion, the book title/theme/author has no deeper meaning than a nice Easter egg indicating Swallow's character isn't what she seems to be.

She wants Jane to believe she is a damsel luring him back to America. Meanwhile, she's really just a horrible actress... errr.... I mean... an undercover FBI agent trying to trap him.

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

:D

Let me warn you, though, bc dear: If you don't succeed now, it's likely that you won't succeed ever. So you better give it everything you've got.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Humm ... not surprising that YOU Three pop up, and quickly

Kinda makes me think of Van Pelt, Rigsby, and Cho ... no idea which of you might fit with which of them (do have my suspicions, smile) ... but those 3 sure have a certain 'Wizard of Oz' quality about them - Grace the Cowardly Lion(ess), Wayne the Goofy Scarecrow, and Kimball (duh) the Tin Man ... with Lisbon as Dorothy (of course), and we'll wait for another day to pull back the curtain on any PJ Wizardry, ty (and yea, ok ... maybe Edison, Eli, or CBI Ron as Toto, arf arf ;-)

Now ... sorry, won't get into all of your 'stuff' at this moment

But to think of anything in Series as "more than seems to be" ?

(or everything, eh ? )

Or to believe we're able to measure success or failure ?

(or "give it everything we've got" ? ... snark)

Well, might be like finding Easter Eggs, like this one ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3H0JcJxlp8

And Nota Bene ... 'Key Phrase' at the end of that clip

Shows up early, and often, in our Mentalist Journey

(wink wink)

.

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

As you should well know by now, my approach to the debacle is fundamentally a very emotional one. If it sets my teeth on edge and turns my warm memories of the show into a bitter mess of anger and devastation, and continues to do so even after half a year of trying to come to terms with it, it should be obvious that no amount of rationalization will make it any less of a failure to me.

While I appreciate the general idea of what you're doing, I must admit that on a certain level it feels like you're tilting at windmills. You clearly haven't grasped the amount of hatred that most people feel towards the debacle. Either that, or you've simply decided to ignore it. Not cool, man. :<

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[–] edisonnosidE 10 years ago

Most people?

Don't include me. I was fine with it, and glad to see it played out, even if it was clumsy.

You should start an IMDb poll to see how many people were fine with the Red John Ending, and how many were disappointed.

Then we'd have hard data as opposed to speculation by a vocal minority.

---->
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.
+ = !

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

Oh, I know. There's you, Dariush and... I think I have a faint memory of someone else as well? Even bc was originally on the nay side, and frankly I'm not very sure of his stand even now. To my knowledge he's never said that he appreciates the wrap-up, just that he's trying to get his head around it. Or something.

Note that "most people" isn't quite the same as "all people", which I never said. :) And isn't you calling us a minority also pretty hardcore speculation? You don't have to look for long to find that disappointment is the primary reaction in the majority of sources. And it isn't limited to the fanbase - journalists, bloggers and even some of the writers, actors and actresses of the show have expressed or strongly implied that the storyline ending was dissatisfying to say the least.

I'm not saying that everyone that liked the debacle is an idiot, of course not. But surely you too can feel the, uh, aura of disbelief and disappointment surrounding it, right?

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[–] edisonnosidE 10 years ago

Kinda makes me think of Van Pelt, Rigsby, and Cho ... no idea which of you might fit with which of them (do have my suspicions, smile) ... but those 3 sure have a certain 'Wizard of Oz' quality about them - Grace the Cowardly Lion(ess), Wayne the Goofy Scarecrow, and Kimball (duh) the Tin Man ... with Lisbon as Dorothy (of course), and we'll wait for another day to pull back the curtain on any PJ Wizardry, ty (and yea, ok ... maybe Edison, Eli, or CBI Ron as Toto, arf arf ;-)

At first, I bought this idea, esp. about Patrick and Theresa.... oh, and Wayne....

BUT: Grace is a RAGING lioness, and Kimball is smart(er than most), just unexpressive. Stone cop, not tin man.

Nice you are thinking and comparing.

---->
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.
+ = !

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Ok Snaker, you found 'this', so no need to check your email

And the 'Wiz Connect' ? ... well, just tossing stuff against the wall, and it sorta half sticks some too, yea ? ... but Grace as a 'Raging Lioness' ? ... sure, will buy that, but it wasn't always 'so', more like she kinda 'grew' into it over time, yea ? (meow) ... and would need to do a 'Wiz Oz Character Study' (yea right, like THAT's gonna happen) but seems 'Tin Man' does sorta fit Kimball, least compared to the other available options ... and yes, is a Scene with him/Summer when she talks about his 'feline vibe', but who can believe anything Summer says ? (MEOW)

Now ... Huey Buey, our Lisbon/Dorothy Snow Leopard of The Great White North

Would need to check the 'Records/Log' ... (cue Meyer, wink)

But as remember, the only 'ney/naw/disappointment/debacle' wrote/said ... was that it did not present itself in some "Easy to Digest McD's Happy Meal Fashion" which the 'Masses' could 'get' in some 'Standard Network TV Presentation' as many/most have come to expect in this Age of Instant Gratification which requires no effort beyond getting off the couch to get another soda or beer (and if you're headed to the kitchen, would you put on the Tea Kettle for me, ty)

And, as also remember (or least present it now/again) ... were some conversations about other 'Similar Series/Shows' which had a 'Similar Arc, Hard Ending' ... like the Fugitive from 1960s, or Gilligan's Island, or MASH, or Dallas (who shot JR, etc) ... and those were all WAY before your 'time', but you kidz may know more recent offerings like the Mafia HBO (?) Show that ended in some Restaurant and NOBODY made any sense of that 'ending', or the Plane Crash Folks in 'Lost' (?) ... but did not watch any of those 'recent shows' so not able to offer any thoughts on them (sorry)

Nevertheless ... Mentalist, from the start, was venturing into very dangerous and uncharted waters with their 'Grand Arc' that extended beyond a few Episodes or a Season (boldly going where few Shows have gone before, etc) ... and don't want to get into a 'whole big deal discussion' here and now (not yet) about how/what/when various 'decisions/plans, etc' were formulated (etc) about the 'RJ Plot Arc' (etc) ... all of 'that' is another story for another day, and involves all the 'behind the curtain' stuff anyway, so anything any of us can talk about is mostly 'theory/conjecture' (unless someone is a 'fly on wall' at CBS or Primrose Hill ? ... cue 'Hollywood TMZ', WINK) ... but will, in time, address those 'matters' as they connect/relate to my 'Show Biz Experience' of 30+ years (whoa, maybe 40, or more ? ) ... and confident will be 'valid insight' in that examination, which Darryl should instantly 'see' and easily compare to his Vast Knowledge of the Rasslin' Game ... and when all is said and done, everyone should recognize that it's all the 'Same Game', just 'Played' in different venues, stadiums, etc using different costumes/masks, etc ... and will easily translate for everyone, no matter the time or place or 'schtick' ... just ask Plato and them other 'Greek Guys', they worked it all out years ago, but it had to 'sit on back burner' cause they didn't have TV in those Days (which wouldn't have done Homer any good anyway, yea ? ... oh, and talking about the 'Blind Traveling Storyteller Guy', not Bart's Dad ... well, never know around here, not fersure)

So, in time, after Connecting all the 'Dots' just Collected in this Mentalist Rewatch ... will pass along thoughts about the 'RJ Arc' ... but know this - does 'work' ... least for me, and maybe/hopefully can describe this 'Visualization' to the satisfaction of any 'Debaclers'

(so to speak)

And PS ...

Real reason Bruno/Team finally 'wrapped up' the RJ Story ?

Simply ran out of 'Red Stuff' to use in Episode Titles .

(duh ;-)

.

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

So you still think that there's some big picture in all this? You're willing to discard what we've heard from the actors and actresses, whom, one would think, have had a look at what Heller's doing from a close range - that Amanda Righetti said that the writing team has been "making things up as they go", that Xander Berkeley said McAllister was certainly not considered a Red John candidate during his appearance in season 1, and that Simon Baker, someone who has been on the train all along and closely working with Heller for six long years, has very explicitly expressed his disapproval with the choice of McA?

So you're just going to ignore everything these people, who actually have some first-hand insight of Heller's work, have said along the way?

You've said that you don't care about the shallow surface elements of the show - the character development and plot concistency, and so forth. You've said that you simply want to digest the metaphorical level of what we ultimately got, and that you're not willing to go down the "what could've been" or "what was right and what was wrong" roads. You've also said that Heller might've not put all the metaphors in there intentionally, and that they might've just ended up there, come with the flow. I understand all that. Your point of view is completely different from that of ours. It seems to me that you don't have an emotional connection to the show like I do, or the rest of us do. You don't care enough to be offended, one could say.

That's why this situation is so absurd. Why are you constantly snarking at us for using the word debacle? Why are you trying to prove us wrong by shoving the possible metaphors down our throats? It's like trying to prove that chickens can fly by using a goose as an example. Our arguments don't clash, they pass each other by. You keep saying that McA "works", or will "work" once you enlighten us about the metaphors included in choosing him as Red John. The truth is, it won't change anything. Being the superficial and impatient little puppets that we are, we're stuck on the surface level. Even if it was to make sense, even if you prove that McA was Heller's idea all along, it won't change a bit. The debacle will still be the debacle. It's not a debacle because we don't get the metaphors underneath, it's a debacle because something's fudgy (very much so) in respect to the surface elements. You can't make that go away.

But then there's the problem that you ignore facts on the basis of what you expect and wish for. Please, don't ignore facts. Don't force things into looking like Heller had a grand plan, when everything we know implies that he didn't.

I gotta say this to you: I realized last night that you're a very typical modernist, as opposed to my education built around postmodernism. Not saying that's a bad thing or that it somehow makes your arguments invalid, of course not. I know for a fact that postmodernism is nothing more than a continuation of modernism, and that it's by no means any more "valid" than modernism - just a different way of looking at things. But are you aware of your own "ideologies", and are you able to question them? How much do you know about modernism?

I found this from some website, and although the source was clearly biased towards modernism, I think it crystallizes something of the main difference between m-ism and pm-ism:

Modernism attempts to construct a coherent world-view whereas postmodernism attempts to remove the difference between high and low. Modernist thinking asserts that mankind progresses by using science and reason while postmodernist thinking believes that progress is the only way to justify the European domination on culture. Modernist thinking believes in learning from past experiences and trusts the texts that narrate the past. On the other hand postmodernist thinking defies any truth in the text narrating the past and renders it of no use in the present times. Modernist historians have a faith in depth. They believe in going deep into a subject to fully analyze it. This is not the case with postmodernist thinkers. They believe in going by the superficial appearances, they believe in playing on surfaces and show no concern towards the depth of subjects. Modernism considers the original works as authentic while postmodernist thinkers base their views on hyper-reality; they [the original works] get highly influenced by things propagated through media.

While I strongly disagree with the "renders it of no use in the present times" and "show no concern towards the depth of subjects" parts (I mean, come on, that's blatant generalization, and the very choice of words is just slanderous), I appreciate the fact that they used the wording "play on surfaces". That's what postmodernism does. It's a very playful way to look at things, and kind of wily, too. Like I've described to you before, in postmodernism the subject of study isn't the subject itself, but the cultural structures that it's built upon. And that, as you should know by now, is my "deeper study" approach to The Mentalist. Furtherymore, I won't even try to deny my own emotional investment and how that affects my judgement. But I sure do hope that my "academic" opinion isn't deemed completely unworthy because of that, because hey, there simply ain't such thing as an unbiased approach.

That being said, let me summarize this for ya: I very much look forward to reading about your findings as they are, but please, please don't use them as arguments for countering the debacle. It's all in vain. And as a friendly piece of advice, don't rely too much on the assumption that Heller got it all planned from the beginning, when so many people who have worked with him for years imply that it just isn't the case. Ignoring and contorting facts for the sake of getting your precious full picture isn't worth it - for all there is to it, it's just not right. That doesn't mean the metaphors aren't worth examining, and that your work isn't worth going through.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

(side note, this is reply to HueBue, but 'nested' goofy so have 'spacing' for any potential poetic structure, ty ty)

.

Huey Our Buoy

Hummm ... are you maybe (really fersure) my 4th Grade Teacher Mrs. Crandall here to haunt me about writing coherent thoughts in complete sentences and paragraphs ?

And by adhering to such a structure/design/system, would that be Modernism or Post-Modernism or even Meta-Modernism as opposed to some Old Skool Way of Exchanging Ideas and Sharing Information ?

(snarky winky)

And ... you maybe got a 'thing' for Patrick ? ... ok, could be Cho, yea ? ... naw, don't tell us Rigsby ? ... sheez, then him and Grace musta been what got you so 'depressed' with your 'emotional investment', yea ?

(huggy smiley)

.

Well ... ahem, "dear", you leave me with 'open nets' like that, gonna shoot and score every time.

And let's save our Modern/Post yip yap for that 'other pathway' (dig ? ty) ... and wish had time/energy/focus here and now to throughly answer all the excellent points you raise above, but my 'in depth response' will have to wait till another day ("sorry" ... wink wink).

However (yea, had to know THAT was coming) ...

To think of the 'ending' in Mentalist (or least the RJ Arc) ... maybe you (someone) can help me with a 'thing' I know about, but would need to spend too much time to track down a 'simple answer/link/etc' which would explain this 'idea' in a 'nutshell' (dig? ty)

In the East/West (Oriental/Occidental) nature/structure of Story Telling and Narrative and all that kind of 'stuff' ... seems is a 'standard thing' about the 'Two Halves' which is rather stark and very different, especially of this one basic element

The Euro/West (usually/normally) will have an 'Ending' that is complete, makes sense, answers all questions

But the East/Orient ... not so much, is often some 'Zen Riddle' to the 'Conclusion' which will not 'make sense', least not in the 'Standard Way' as understood/defined in Euro/West

Capeesh all that ?

Is there some 'Term/Concept' (academic or otherwise) which addresses this yin/yang'er ? ... got a link ?

(and let's not get started on 'Native/Primitive Cultures' and their 'Stories/Endings', those Eskimos can tell some tales that would confuse and confound a Cherokee Medicine Man or a Haitian Witchdoctor ... currahee)

And not saying this as 'fact/chiseled in stone', just curious and exploring

Could Bruno/Team maybe be playing with some 'Zen Ending' to the RJ Wrap ?

If so, would put 'Huge Spin' on how we 'read' the Story or 'interpret' the Wrap Up

... dig that drift ?

Again, not thinking/saying is 'so', but seems worthy of consideration, and especially knowing that Patrick's schtick/vibe/characterization is about as 'out there' as it gets, and that 'out there' not only happened in just the McA RJ Wrap, but is ALL through the entire Series/Story (and, in time, will offer numerous examples, but imagine you/others can easily remember a lot of 'magical rabbits pulled outta the hat' or PJ's azz, yea ? )

So, hopefully, you (someone) will have some 'info/specifics' on this East/West Story Ending 'thing' which might help us all understand more about what is what (etc etc, ty ty)

But know THIS as 'Fact' ... Zen Riddle Endings are not 'standard fair' on USA Network TV ... betcha are a LOT of Folks watching old reruns of Twilight Zone (for example) and they still don't "get it" about some of those stories from the 1950s

And Darryl (anyone else) get back with us in 50 years (or more?), let us know how Doc Who was able to 'wrap up' and 'make sense' in their 'ending' ? ... maybe just go 'poof' in some Tardis, eh ?

(and yes, those examples may be a compare/contrast of apples/oranges, but still are 'fruit' with their seeds inside, grow on trees, etc etc ... yea ? )

Oh ... and of the "debacle" talk ?

Awww, just having fun with 'cliche speak'

Like said earlier, hard to pass on an 'open net'

(winky snarky smiley dot dot dot tyger tyger etc etc ;-)

.

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[–] myerhead 10 years ago

Could Bruno/Team maybe be playing with some 'Zen Ending' to the RJ Wrap ?

Translation: "Help! I'm way past the point of desperation in my undending quest for some sort of explanation to that crap-filled reveal!!"

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

Well, first of all, who hasn't got a thing for Jane? :D I most certainly do. I bet 95% of the watchers do, regardless of gender. He's a wonderful character... Well, not so much anymore, he's turned into a kind of a douchebag in the last couple years. Oh, but I also got a thing for every and each of the original five-man band, and Red John, obviously, and a whole bunch of side characters, Rebecca, Todd, Lorelei... But you know what I've got the hugest thing for? The circus motifs. And the portrayal of reality in general. And damn, those shocker endings... Lawd Jesus, those shocker endings.

You get what I mean, right? I was - or am, who knows - attached and attracted to the whole wide world of The Mentalist. Basically I lived and grew alongside with that world for five years. It happens, fictional attachment, and I don't think I'm anything special in this regard. It's hard to explain if you haven't experienced it yourself, though.

Hm, I just sent you a follow-up private message about modernism/postmodernism a while ago, so I'm not going there now... But here's something: Did you know that the term pair "Oriental/Occidental" as you use them was defined in Murica? In Europe, the term "Oriental" refers to the mythical Middle East, Turkey, Arabic countries, that "One Thousand and One Nights" stuff. It was originally used as a category of exoticism to promote the budding tourist business in the late 18th century.

I still think that all of your sources (mainly Joe Campbell, if I've got this right) for these "Oriental" cultures, philosophy and history are way too American. What is your first-hand experience on the Far East? Have you actually read any, say, Chinese or Buddhist philosophy yourself, instead of just impressions and interpretations filtered through Western eyes? And let's just skip the translation problem, as that would only make things insurmountably difficult, as if they weren't that enough already.

I can say that I appreciate your thought of a "Zen ending" as you phrased it, I sure do. And I actually dare be so bold as to say that I have some moderate insight on those kinds of obscure endings... Yeeeeah, man, lemme tell you, for some time now I've had a mighty need to start yapping to you about Monster... No, seriously, we absolutely have to get to that at some point... Anyway, yeah, I'd say I know my Obscure Deep Sh*t ending when I see one. But there's also something called a lazy ending. And right now it seems that the Red John ending falls into the latter department, unfortunately. I know, there's still the faint chance that they revisit the storyline in some way or fashion, and that's where I put my hope in. I would be more than perfectly happy with an obscure ending - that would be an honor worthy of The Mentalist we loved, if done properly - but at its current state, I personally can't see anything that would be credited as "Zen". YMMV, as always.

Uh, it's getting kinda late at these latitudes, and I've still got something small I want to contribute to the season 4 thread, so... I'll get back to this tomorrow if I missed something crucial. Oh, and I have this idea for a new thread in which I'm going to try a kind of a prosaic allegory approach, I think it might help you understand all this talk of emotional investment that I've been going on about. :) But lessee about that tomorrow.

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[–] Darryl The Hitman 10 years ago

Of course we're emotionally invested--why would anyone watch 5-6 years of a show if they weren't?

Feel free to visit the board I own at http://z6.invisionfree.com/boardwitheverything :)

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

I know, right? That's why it feels so strange to me when bc says he can't see what the big deal about character dev and storyline inconsistency is. Uh, maybe he just hasn't formed the emotional bonds to the show like the most of us have, maybe his approach is just purely intellectual.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Oh ... got lots of 'investments involvements and approaches'

And they go WAY beyond just 'intellectual or emotional'

Like ... any of you ever considered the 'financial' ?

And where is your next meal coming from ?

... eh ?

(smile)

.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Everyone ... but sorta Huebue in particular (see why as we go, ty)

About this idea of our ... 'First Introduction to Red John'

And how in that Opening Episode 101 ... we were told

He's a Serial Killer, with many victims, always uses the Smiley Face, etc

And he was already given that 'Name' ... 'Identity' was pre-established, etc

... all that sorta 'correct' ?

Well, case I've been making here since Day One ... Mentalist is NOT a 'Police Procedure Show'

That definition applies to a Show like CSI Vegas and Gil Grissom's Test Tubes, Pure Procedure

The Mentalist will use a few 'Elements of Procedure' (as defined in Real Police Work)

But about the only 'Real Procedure' we get each week ? ... PJ pulling wabbits out his azz

And if State of California, The CBI and any other Law Enforcement Agencies in that Region

If they REALLY wanted to 'catch' Red John ... If REALLY wanted the 'Real Pros' on the Case ?

Then they should have called in The Real Deal TV Show Team ... FBI BAU - Criminal Minds

And Step One in THEIR 'Procedure' ... as evidenced in Ep 405 'Catching Out'

And something that Hotchner will 'raise hell about every time' (did again in this one)

The Local Cops had already given a Name to the Serial Killer ... The Highway 99 Killer

NO ... says Aaron ... we do not 'pre-suppose anything' ... we call them the "Un-Sub"

To give a Name, or to assume anything until we've examined everything ?

Wrong ... can set back the Investigation and complicate the 'Real Facts'

(etc etc ... and ty Hotch for allowing me to 'speak' for you ... wink)

So again ... please do not make the mistake of 'pre-supposing' with Red John

And especially since The Mentalist is far away from 'Real Police Procedure'

Is more like a 'Magic Show' ... and RJ is that Rabbit in the Hat ... Voila

.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_Minds

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1256102/combined

.

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

That has nothing to do with my question. You keep talking about how we take and interpret things, but the fact that he was introduced as a serial killer was something that the writers decided, not us. It's not "our introduction", it's theirs - we're at the receiving end here. So why a serial killer? If the plan was to make Red John a TBA something in the first place, why not introduce him through some other cinematical archtype that would make a little more sense in the big picture?

Also, Red John's first helper that we know of referred to him as Red John before he'd had any publicity, so we know that he chose the name himself. It wasn't given to him by the media.

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[–] myerhead 10 years ago

Also, Red John's first helper that we know of referred to him as Red John before he'd had any publicity, so we know that he chose the name himself. It wasn't given to him by the media.

Great point.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Bue Hue ...

Can you provide more specifics about this "first helper" ?

(or do you need Meyer to do that for you ? ;-)

Sorry ... any "introduction" is a Two-Way Street

And to ask "why not" about anything in some Story ?

Then "why not" have Pandora NOT Open that Box ?

Or Adam/Eve NOT Eat that Apple ?

... capeesh ?

(wink)

.

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[–] myerhead 10 years ago

I would answer, but I am tired of the snark.

What did Orville Tanner say at trial? Other than that, you can find it yourself.

Or you can choose do what you've been doing quite a bit recently... ignoring the facts if they don't fit inside your far-out theories.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Tired of Snarks ?

Sorry Meyer, but you in the wrong Place and watching the wrong TV Show

.

And Orville ? ... Thanks, will check with Wilber (or that Horse of his)

.

And ... "ignoring the facts if they don't fit inside your theories" ?

(far-out or otherwise ? )

Isn't that what you've been doing all along ?

(SNARK ;-)

.

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[–] Darryl The Hitman 10 years ago

No, it's what you and dariush have been doing.

Feel free to visit the board I own at http://z6.invisionfree.com/boardwitheverything :)

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Can't speak for Dariush and wouldn't try anyway

Farsi tougher than Red Maple Polar Bear, eh ? ;-)

But think you know as well as most and better than some

Not had any Red John Theories going back to Day One

Just keeping hands/feet inside Car till Ride is Done

And Facts ?

Me and Joe Friday still Draggin' them Nets

(smile)

.

(ps ... but please don't ask me to do a 'whole poetical thing' here/now on that McA Critter hauled up last Fall, the one you all been calling a 'Debacle' ... even then looked to me like could be a 'new species' and why been studying it so much ... analyzing all the information best as possible before arriving at any conclusion ... that process the Latinae called 'Scire' ... which is what you all been doing too, yea ? ... and will you let me know your results once your exams are complete ? ... snarky thanky)

.

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

Not had any Red John Theories going back to Day One

Well, you may or may not call it a theory, but you've certainly been pushing the "Red John is many" idea in a pretty decided fashion.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Well Miz Bue ... "Many/More" ?

Seems 'Good Occam Razor Working Hypothesis'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_hypothesis

But "He is M??" ... Ain't Theoretical 'My Dear'

Was Written on that Wall ... as Plain as Bloody Day

(ipso facto, eh ? ;-)

.

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

"He is ma", yes. "He is many", nnn-not quite. There's a round quadrillion of other possible readings, and there's really nothing except for some plot-wise convenience that would imply anything towards the last word being "many"...

And anyway, once again, what you're saying hasn't got much to do with what's it's supposed to respond to, which is me claiming that you're not exactly more of an impartial observer here than the rest of us. Dodge some more, man. :<

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[–] Dariush72 10 years ago

Can't speak for Dariush and wouldn't try anyway

Farsi tougher than Red Maple Polar Bear, eh ? ;-)

......in the contrary Persian is a relatively easy language to learn specially for those who speak Indo-European languages (Since Persian is an Indo-European Language).....there are a lot of similarities......about the finale and the "Still" on going debate on the finale, look man, these guys "Will Not" Accept or even consider accepting your or my theories on the finale and basically will shoot down anything contrary to their preference.....as a fellow wrestling fan I do enjoy having a conversation with Daryl or love talking to Hue and even starting a "Snark" contest with Meyer but I have been starting to ignore any conversation about the finale and dont like discussing it because it goes nowhere,....therefore unless you are enjoying debating on this matter I suggest you to shift your posts too and let these guys deal with the "Debacle" till eternity......

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[–] Darryl The Hitman 10 years ago

We have dealt with it. We accept that it's crap. Trying to justify it as making sense somehow is not moving on.

Feel free to visit the board I own at http://z6.invisionfree.com/boardwitheverything :)

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[–] Dariush72 10 years ago

Trying to justify it as making sense somehow is not moving on.

do you see me even trying to discuss it or try to forcefully make sense out of it now?.....I honestly dont even care if its crap or manure or whatever.....so accept whatever you want however you want whenever you want wherever you want....the important thing is that I liked what i watched back then and I certainly dont need yours or anyone else's acceptance as you dont need mine for liking or hating something......PS, you havent dealt with it, If you had then you would have been indifferent to opposite ideas rather than debating them for the million time.....

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[–] Darryl The Hitman 10 years ago

I will certainly argue down illogical ideas on general principle, yes.

Feel free to visit the board I own at http://z6.invisionfree.com/boardwitheverything :)

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[–] Dariush72 10 years ago

illogical ideas

so you are the only one capable of understanding Logic?...who died make you the intellectual savior of the masses?

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[–] Darryl The Hitman 10 years ago

I'm certainly not the only one as you've seen other people object to your ideas. Besides, the very word "illogical" itself implies judgment. You cannot say something is illogical unless you disagree with its logic so personal judgment is always a factor when you use the word.

Feel free to visit the board I own at http://z6.invisionfree.com/boardwitheverything :)

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[–] Dariush72 10 years ago

I'm certainly not the only one as you've seen other people object to your ideas.

Please let me rephrase that....So You and those who agree with you are the logical ones? and your personal judgment is the universal measurement for logic? (according to yourself)

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[–] Darryl The Hitman 10 years ago

Yes, that's how it works. Again, if you think something else is illogical because it is different from what you think, then it stands to reason that you see the way you think as being logical.

Obviously, someone who disagrees with my views will think I'm illogical and that their view is logical.

Feel free to visit the board I own at http://z6.invisionfree.com/boardwitheverything :)

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[–] Dariush72 10 years ago

Obviously, someone who disagrees with my views will think I'm illogical and that their view is logical.

No,I disagreed with you but I never considered you or Meyer or Hue illogical.....all of you have offered plausible ideas and theories, the fact that I dont think a theory is right or dont like wont make it illogical...if a human being's brain can think of some theory it certainly is the product of his or her thought....my approach towards people with different ideas is not dismissing them as illogical....who is anyone to call anyone's ideas illogical?...maybe a theory that i think is wrong works for someone else..maybe I'am not seeing something.......maybe I'am wrong...

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[–] Darryl The Hitman 10 years ago

Well, if you can't use personal judgment to determine something is illogical or logical, when would you be able to use the words? Would we simply delete them from the lexicon?

Feel free to visit the board I own at http://z6.invisionfree.com/boardwitheverything :)

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[–] Dariush72 10 years ago

this is what I do: when there is a disagreement on a matter I usually call it a dispute,I make my own stance but I always recognize the fact that my opposition maybe on to something whether I think its right or wrong....whenever i think a theory is wrong and I could even have my own reasons,I wont barge out calling my opposition illogical.....my point is that my like or dislike of something,approval or non approval of something, even my own judgement only works for me...I can accept something or refuse accepting something but i couldnt call something illogical just because i dont see it or like it or prefer it because I'am no Judge to send out verdicts and others are certainly not waiting for my verdicts on whether something is logical or not.........

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

and basically will shoot down anything contrary to their preference

But don't you kind of do the same? :) You certainly haven't been very tolerant with any Partridge supporter theories. I personally think it's something that everyone does to an extent.

I really have nothing against people liking the storyline ending... But I can't, and won't, not interfere when the facts are being distorted to suit or justify someone's theory, be it against or supportive of the debacle (though I admit that snark-wise I'm a little biased towards the ones against it).

But you're right in that I will not accept the debacle, in itself. No no no.

So far I've been under the assumption that bc keeps posting because he wants to discuss the matters he brings up. Instead, lately it sure has seemed like all he wants is to get us to agree with him and turn us into his disciples. So yeah, I'm also a little puzzled as to why the unending filibuster.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
W R O N G ... sorry

The ONLY Thing been trying to get Folks to "agree with" ?

The Process ... that 'Critical Thought Verb Stuff' (etc etc)

Of going from A to B to C to 'whatever' (etc etc)

All Youse Guys ? ... S T O P P E D at Point Zero

You've all throw up your hands and screamed

" D E B A C L E " ... Case Closed, Next Case

Seen Red Neck Mules with more 'open-ness'

(hee haw ;-)

.

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

...aaaand once again, you've proceeded to ignore everything I/we have said so far about why we feel it's a debacle... Once again...

It's closing in on the trillionth time that I've said this, but oh boy here we go again... We haven't "decided" anything. The reason for why we call it a debacle isn't to make any "final verdict". It's our emotional response. It's a disappointment that emerges from our emotional investment to the show. It's how we feel. Your rationalizations can't change how we feel, and neither can your attempts to bend the facts and the narrative that you've been so busy with lately. Maybe read that a couple of dozen times and see if you're able to, you know, not ignore it this time?

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[–] myerhead 10 years ago

We haven't "decided" anything. The reason for why we call it a debacle isn't to make any "final verdict". It's our emotional response. It's a disappointment that emerges from our emotional investment to the show.

Correct. And from what we've been told by the creator of the show, the director, the actors/actresses, the writers, and everyone else involved with the show in any capacity, the Red John arc is not going to be re-visited.

Now you can say it's all kayfabe, and I certainly hope it is. I do hope Red John isn't dead, the arc survives, the story is wonderfully explained, etc, etc.

However, at the time Season 6 ended, everyone involved with the show assumed it was going to be not only the season-ending episode, but also the series-ending episode. And did they decide to re-visit the Red John case, even though they believed the series was ending? No.

I, for one, would be happy to change my opinion if we see the RJ case re-visited. Right now, in my mind, it was a debacle. And frankly, even the most fervent supporters of the RJ reveal still had issues with it: Bcthedj has said it had issues, and dariush said he would have done things differently.

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

And frankly, even the most fervent supporters of the RJ reveal still had issues with it: Bcthedj has said it had issues, and dariush said he would have done things differently.

Excellent point. Also, if you take a look at the IMDb reviews for the episode, you can see that the approximate 5% who don't deem the episode terrible ALL base their opinion on the assumption that the whole McA business was kayfabe, Red John isn't dead, and the storyline isn't over.

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[–] Dariush72 10 years ago

Well you can go back and check my earlier posts before the debates got hard and you can clearly see that although I stand my ground I have Always Recognized other People's opinions even though I dont necessarily agree with....I wasnt always an anti Partridge hardliner...This is simply a reaction to Bret Partridge being shoved down my throat by certain guys here......

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[–] Darryl The Hitman 10 years ago

The same reaction we have to McA being shoved down our throats, yes.

Feel free to visit the board I own at http://z6.invisionfree.com/boardwitheverything :)

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[–] Dariush72 10 years ago

I didnt shove McA down your throats.......so be mad at the show not me....i didnt write the finale...I'am just some guy who liked the finale so subjecting me to your BP fan Rage is "Uncalled for"...

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

Well, don't take this badly, but you were kinda shoving it down our throats at one point (you know, with the daily new threads and all)... But unlike bc, you eventually knew when to back down, so props for that.

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[–] Dariush72 10 years ago

at that time my thread was one in 2 or 3 other threads that the Term Debacle was being discussed in each one of them....if your definition of something being shoved down throats is simply talking about your ideas in "Your Own Thread" without amassing allies and spamming the board (like some of our friends here did)....then yeah......I swear one time 3 or 4 posters spammed the whole board so bad that it made me react and post a thread "Everyone Please Read this" in which i criticized some posters attitude....and now I'am the one who shoved down their throats!?

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[–] Darryl The Hitman 10 years ago

I have to admit it was always elijah and judy who were more partridge-positive than I was. Once it got down to The List and he was one of the final 7, it just made too much sense for it -not- to be him.

Feel free to visit the board I own at http://z6.invisionfree.com/boardwitheverything :)

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
See if one day the 'Debacle Triumvirate' receives Enlightenment ?

Maybe a 'Magic Lantern' or 'Flying Carpet' will come along ?

(open says-a-me ... rub rub wish ;-)

In meantime, something you probably already know Dariush

And how this Red John Association ... is damn sure 'Many'

(and can we get an 'Amen' from the 'Amen Pew' ... ty)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K16fG1sDagU

Islamic State Group Becomes Target of Arab Satire

Sep 1, 2:16 AM (ET)
By VIVIAN SALAMA

BAGHDAD (AP) — The bumbling young militant first drops the rocket launcher on the toes of his boss before taking aim and firing toward a military checkpoint outside of an Iraqi town — not realizing he's fired it backward at his leader.

The "Looney Tunes"-style cartoon targeting the Islamic State group comes after its militants have swept across large swaths of Syria and Iraq, declaring their own self-styled caliphate while conducting mass shootings of their prisoners. The group cheers its advances and beheadings in slickly produced Internet videos.

In response, television networks across the Middle East have begun airing cartoons and comedy programs using satire to criticize the group and its claims of representing Islam. And while not directly confronting the group's battlefield gains, the shows challenge the legitimacy of its claims and chip away at the fear some have that the Islamic militants are unstoppable.

Satire has long been a force in Arab culture, beginning first with its ancient poetry. Indirect criticism once cloaked in self-censorship exploded out into the open during Arab Spring revolts. Even in the midst of Syria's bloody civil war, the country's renowned black, satirical humor has continued.

In one skit produced by the "Ktir Salbe Show," a taxi driver picks up a jihadi who rejects listening to radio because it didn't exist in the earliest days of Islam, a knock on the Islamic State group's literal take on the Quran. The driver offers to turn on the air conditioning, but that too is rejected. The jihadi finally criticizes him for answering a mobile phone.

Fed up, the driver asks: "Were there taxi cabs in the earliest days?"

"No, 1,000 times no!" the passenger answers.

The driver responds by kicking out the jihadi, and tells him ...

"Ok ... then wait for a camel."

Full Article ...

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20140901/ml-islamic-state-satire--38e d18d9ab.html

Yea Dariush ... know you're Persian, not Arab

But imagine you still 'get it'

(smile)

And in effort to Bridge Cultural Satirical Chasms

Which may appear across time and space

Can imagine you will also 'get' this ...

But dunno about Yosemite Sams

Or Daffy Debaclers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4115NGKdDA

(beep beep)

.

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[–] Darryl The Hitman 10 years ago

We are already "enlightened", to use your term. We see the debacle for what it is.

Feel free to visit the board I own at http://z6.invisionfree.com/boardwitheverything :)

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[–] edisonnosidE 10 years ago

Oh come on, DTH, we still are 'in the dark.' We have been kayfabed (whatever that means.)

We have been led along the primrose path, deceived, lied to, misdirected, fooled, what THF you want to call it.

And you are dissapointed it had worked. It worked. We were scammed. AND we bought it.

No wonder the hostility:

YOU HAVE BEEN "JANED!"

----
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.
+ =

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[–] Darryl The Hitman 10 years ago

What are we in the dark about? They certainly haven't been looking to revisit or revive RJ so barring a reversal of form in season 7, there's nothing left "behind the curtain".

Feel free to visit the board I own at http://z6.invisionfree.com/boardwitheverything :)

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Darryl ... try this, and if not able to 'paint the picture' properly
Maybe Ed or Dariush can fill in any missing blanks ? (ty tyvm)

You seem to still be in dark about this ...

Behind the Curtain is ... Another Curtain

And like fractals, can go on ad infinitum

And calling McA/RJ etc ... a Debacle

Sounds the same as those who say ...

"Rasslin is a Debacle cause it ain't real"

... dig ?

And all of that is assuming you've not been trying to run some double flip kayfabe

Cause if so ? ... then careful, you're in over your MI-6 Paygrade (way over, dig ? ;-)

.

Oh ... PS Ed

You mean to tell us you don't know this ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayfabe

Or are YOU trying to run a double flip on us ?

Either way ? ... then you're making me do this ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief

And know YOU know ... me gots that 'Paygrade Clearance' (WINK)

.

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[–] Darryl The Hitman 10 years ago

Oh I don't mind about that. I know most people don't like wrestling and that's fine. I'm aware people (not all people but some) look down on me for liking it and that is also ok. Wrestling has countless dropped storylines, nonsensical character motivations, ludicrous plot developments, and gives people who don't like it very few reasons to embrace it. It's low culture and doesn't pretend or spire to be anything more.

With this show, I thought after 5 years of buildup, we'd get a suitable finale. I have never watched Breaking Bad so I can't say how it compares in terms of quality but I know its finale answered every question and brought everything to a reasonable finish where most things made sense and even if you disagreed with what happened, you could see where the writers were coming from. With this show, it was as if Shakespeare handed over writing duties to a failed Broadway wannabe for the final RJ episode.

Feel free to visit the board I own at http://z6.invisionfree.com/boardwitheverything :)

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Ahhh Grasshopper

Careful ... depending where/when, etc

'Culture' can do a lot of yin/yang flips

(zenny tao)

.

And of any ... "as if"

Well, Shakespeare has had a pretty good 400 year run

And Wrestling ... seems in range of 4000 or so, yea ?

So get back with us later about Broadway or Breaking Bad

Then we'll see how those "ticket sales" are holding up

... eh ?

(wink)

.

And PS ...

Confident you're aware of the 'moving target definitions' of ...

suitable ... quality ... reasonable ... etc ... (as used above)

But to think about "questions" and "answers" ?

Well, as you may know ... some "questions" are so simple

Even 'Huebue Dorothy' can "correctly answer" them

(snarky huggy ;-)

.

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[–] edisonnosidE 10 years ago

PJ: "Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas any more."

RJ: "I'll get you, and your little dog too!"

PJ: "It's not a game!"

RJ: "I'm MELTING!"

----
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.
+ =

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

Did you even read my and Myer's response up there somewhere?

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[–] Dariush72 10 years ago

In meantime, something you probably already know Dariush

Yeah about that......we are Persians and have nothing to do with Arabs,Different Languages, Different Races, Different Beliefs, Different cultures, different everything but the basic Religion and "some" writing alphabets...and we like to stay away from them and their internal "Jihad" wars....since the ancient time Arabs hated our guts and unfortunately the feeling is mutual so we wouldnt wanna know about their issues and culture as they wouldnt want to know about ours.........

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Bue Hue ... Yes, Thanks

Read your response above (Meyer's too)

But Sorry ... Nothing New

(well, 'head' getting better at his schtick, give him that much ... wink)

'Dear' ... (and you too Bue ... WINK)

You keep saying ... and in BOLD CAPS THIS TIME

... "Your rationalizations can't change how we feel" ...

Yes ... you're correct, but I already KNOW how you "feel"

... hurt, pain, anger, sadness, loss, more sadness, more hurt ...

Been there myself ... know that 'Experience' very well from this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Yeller
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Yeller_(film)

... When I was Five Years Old ...

(then went boo hoo hoo all the way home)

Please ... separate the 'Little Girl' inside you

From the 'Real World Woman' you will become

Then those 'Feelings' will yin/yang to Positives

(huggy wuggy snarky poo, and your Little Meyer too ;-)

.

Now ... on to Part Two in this 1,001 Nights of IMDb Tales

.

Dariush .... yes, know what you mean ... Thanks

And curious, if you were in a boat in middle of ocean and some 'crazy jihad type' was swimming alone in trouble, about to drown ... bet you'd throw him a floating life ring ... yea ?

And yes, hard to 'leap' from that 'imaginary scenario' to the 'Real World'

But confident you 'see' what trying to point at here, that 'Mentalization'

And how 'Things with Neighbors' are an Ancient and Well Traveled Path

Speaking of Neighbors ... and 'Things' here in 'Merika

Do watch that Bugs Bunny uTuber ... then connect to ...

Other Video linked up above, under the 'Amen Pew', dig ?

Might help you 'connect' and 'see' more about This Place

.

AND ... speaking of 'connections' (as we move to Part Three)

Ed da Sun ... Thank YOU ... You Wizard You

Cause bet Dariush (and others?) have NO Idea about this ...

What Dorothy is still taught today in some Kansas Schools

Which is not that different from many Schools Everywhere

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_and_evolution_in_public_educatio n_in_the_United_States

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_and_evolution_in_public_educatio n

Yea ... Very Interesting™

And easy to solve that 'yin/yang dichotomy' ... Simply Update the Metaphors

This could be a good start ... "In the Beginning 'x' Created the Big Bang"

But ... let's wait for another day to 'fix' the Global Village's Metaphors

Have all you Dorothys and Grasshoppers here to worry about first

(and where did YOU hide that box of 'He is X' Metaphors ? . ... grrrrr)

.

Oh ... PS

Little sumthin' about the Squirrel Guy up yonder

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Stevens

And Good 'Official Write Up' on the Song (2meg pdf)

http://pcasacas.org/SiPC/23.3/Piacentino.pdf

(yea, da 'book learnin stuff', acadumnics, all that, yee haw)

.

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

Oh, I didn't use caps, just bolded it so that you won't miss it this time. You, on the other hand, have been using caps in increasing amounts lately, along with spacing and other stuff. I don't think bold's any worse than that.

I've told you very elaborately how the emotional connection we've had with the show over the past six years can be likened to a human relationship. So I gotta ask you, do you also calculate and rationalize your relationships in a similar way to what you're doing here? Damn.

What you're saying only convinces me more that you are positively and absolutely clueless about the essence of William Blake's work. It also really makes me wonder if you've even read Joe Campbell's work the way he meant it. And hey, maybe you should step back and think about who you're saying these things to for a moment... You're telling me to separate the little girl inside me from something you call the "real world woman"? I don't think I even need to emphasize this further, I'm sure you know how silly you just made yourself look. Aw, don't worry though, a silly a day keeps the nihilism away. :)

I recently watched an episode of The West Wing that was mainly about creationism being taught at schools. It was a good episode. A very beautiful one.

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[–] myerhead 10 years ago

Since I have stated I would happily and gladly change my opinion of the RJ reveal from 'debacle' to something else if the case is re-visited, I have to ask (again, for what seems like the 100th time):

If the RJ case is not re-visited, and episode 6x08 was truly the "end" for McA/RJ/Blake Association/etc, would you change your view that RJ is "groupthink" or "many" or "there is still stuff behind the curtain", etc??

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[–] myerhead 10 years ago

Read your response above (Meyer's too)

But Sorry ... Nothing New

(well, 'head' getting better at his schtick, give him that much ... wink)

wtf

You are insane.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Well ... have to say/ask

(and think this is the 1st time):

Been 'showing you mine'

Now you 'show us yours'

¿ Define "Red John" ?

¿ Tell Us YOUR "View" ?

And for 'xtra bonus points'

... of PJ's Wife and Child

¿ Was the Knife "literally" in McA's Hand ?

¿ Did HE "Smell the Strawberries and Cream" ?

(and hope won't need to 'take back' that 'insane schtick give' ... WINK)

.

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

And for 'xtra bonus points'

... of PJ's Wife and Child

¿ Was the Knife "literally" in McA's Hand ?

¿ Did HE "Smell the Strawberries and Cream" ?

¿ Was the Knife "literally" in McA's Hand ?

McA's

ಠ_ಠ

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[–] myerhead 10 years ago

I'll be happy to respond after you answer my question.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Hue ... is that a "Yes" ?

To Both Questions ?

.

Sorry Meyer ... No Will Do

I been laying down cards in here for 2 years now

You not 'shown' once ... just byatch at mine, eh ?

Time to Pay the Piper

(ticky tocky snarky ;-)

.

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[–] myerhead 10 years ago

You are not telling the truth. You say you have "laid down your cards" but all you have really done is raise questions and toss out innuendos over the years, but you have never really concluded anything. You continue to say you will map out everything once this happens and once that happens... yet you never get around to actually doing anything.

You hide behind odd and vague sayings like "there is more behind the curtain" and "kayfabe" and "dorothys and grasshoppers" but never explain anything. You avoid answering questions like cats avoid baths (meow, kitty-kitty).

For a couple of seasons now, you have continued to raise the possibility of "groupthink", "several RJ's", or "Today's RJ", etc. And when RJ was revealed as Sheriff McAllister and all the creators, producers, writers, actors, etc basically said, "That is it for Red John" you still maintain the groupthink/several RJ's/today's RJ innuendo.

Oh well. You say I haven't shown once. I thought my stance was perfectly clear. Not surprisingly, I believe what I've seen and what I've been told. Without further adieu:

I believe the following about the show "The Mentalist":

a. Sheriff Thomas McAllister was Red John

b. An actor portraying McAllister, as Red John, made all the "appearances" throughout the show, i.e., it was RJ in the shadows of the shanty in 1x23, it was RJ who rescued Jane and wore the mask in 2x23, it was RJ who killed Rebecca in 2x8, it was RJ who killed Jared and Hooker and then called Jane to laugh in his ear in 1x11, etc, etc.

c. McA personally killed Patrick Jane's wife and child

d. It was RJ who was head of The Blake Association

e. Blake Association members helped RJ along the way... for example, Timothy Carter was a stand-in who was prepped (probably by RJ himself) for his 'role' in 3x23-24. Carter was not a Red John; he was merely playing a part. He was probably Blake Association, and would risk it all because the Blake Association knew of the girl trapped in his basement. Another example of a "Blaker" risking it all: Isla the Assassin would rather jump off a balcony to her death than get arrested in 3x23-24.

f. The Blake Association and McA as Red John were not part of the show creator's original concept and were only added once the storyline got "out of control".

g. McA is dead

h. We will not see the RJ case re-visited or re-opened in Season 7

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

I'll have to jump in here and point out that in 2x23, Simon Baker made a double role. He was both Jane and Red John.

Or, uh, did I understand b. right? Because honestly it seems a little contradictory with f...

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Ok ... Thanks Meyer

Get back on some 'other stuff' later, but ...

You Say, Believe, and expect us to Believe ?

McA ... THE Sheriff of Napa County

Was Guy walking in The Open at CBI

In Basement Corridor, past 2 Guards

"Hand Wipe" with Rebecca ... THEN

Simply walked out of CBI ... 'Poof'

And Nobody at CBI recognized him ?

Gate Guards not remember him there ?

No Camera ? ... No Visitor Log Sign In ?

... etc etc ?

That your Story and you sticking to it ?

.

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[–] Darryl The Hitman 10 years ago

The one who killed Rebecca looked nothing like McA (but somewhat similar to Partridge).

Feel free to visit the board I own at http://z6.invisionfree.com/boardwitheverything :)

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[–] edisonnosidE 10 years ago

I agree, DTH. The size and bulk was more slender, more Partridge -like. Rebecca smiled at him, evidently BA members were familiar to each other.

I still hold to the spy-type daisy chain approach: each person only knew the person directly above them and anyone below them, and the superiors all called themselves Red John.

From the mall killing:
"Some people call me Red John....."

That's why the Blake association needed passwords (Tyger tiger) and permanent ID's (3 dot tattoo).

bc! Connect the dots! It's coming together!

THREE dots? Above, here and below.

What surprises me is why J.C. LaRoach (sorry) wasn't in the Blake Association.... He had reason.

So, WTF, Meyer, we can't cruise random speculation?

It's just TV, Ed, calm down. Nothing is real. Not even Goldberry.

Pant, pant...

~~~~~~~o-<
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.
+ =

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

I remember having presented this question to you before: Why would all those Red Johns be similarly obsessed with Jane?

Sorry, it might be the "logical" thing to explain the plotholes with, but it would completely butcher the Holmes/Moriarty-esque dynamics of the storyline, which I think is one of the more essential thematic and atmospheric elements of the show. And it would make our journey along with Jane meaningless. There's no need for character development if we already have an established evil out there.

I really was under the assumption that we would need to figure out where the evil lies ourselves. That would've been possible via the juxtaposition of Jane and Red John - an individual one, because, you know, in big part the story was built upon discovering the flaws of Jane's character, right? The thought of there existing an organization that represents abstract evil in itself makes it unnecessary to even question Jane's motifs in any way. It feels like some lazy and kind of narcissistic moral - the fault's outside your own self, and in the system, no less, so you don't have to worry about your personal growth, just go about your way. Kind of feels like something a teen rebel would say.

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[–] edisonnosidE 10 years ago

I remember having presented this question to you before: Why would all those Red Johns be similarly obsessed with Jane?

Wow!

Sure.... chain of command. Top down. The boss want's the 'stuff,' so tell your subordinates what needs doing.

~~~~~~~o-<
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.
+ =

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Darryl ... curious about your "look" ?

Cause seems to me ...

All we got of Rebecca's Guy ... at 'best'

Was nano-second dark partial glimpse

From 'port stern' as he walked away

(so to speak)

But ... even if was Partridge ?

Then plug in same as above, dig ?

Not like Bret not known around CBI, eh ?

What 'works' for me ...

He was her 'handler' ... is why she smiled

And he was another 'Association Minion'

Carrying out an 'Assignment Task'

And was her 'RJ' (so to speak)

Easy compare to Priest/Preacher, etc

As they 'symbolize' Jesus to Followers

('wipe now' and sin no more ;-)

.

ps ed ... most 'dots' are ready to go

all those bread crumbs (so to speak)

but afraid you guys will eat them first

(munchy urpy)

And JJ the Tupperware Man ?

He is "Man of Honor"

Not Corruptible

(just 'weird')

.

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[–] edisonnosidE 10 years ago

Uh, yeah, bc, isn't that why you're here?
AND it's almost bedtime for you, too! Curl up with HueBueBue and get some snores.

~~~~~~~o-<
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.
+ =

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
"Why" ?

Naw ... "Why Not" ?

.

And ... just 'woke up'

All that PJ Polyphasic, dig ?

.

AND ... Huebue ?

Ha ha ... she too scared of me

If ANYTHING ?

Bet YOU are her "RJ Handler"

In those "walk abouts"

(so to speak ;-)

.

Oh ... PS

"kitty kitty"

(wink wink wink)

.

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

Now I thought you'd be more scared of me than the other way round... :D

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[–] edisonnosidE 10 years ago

Oh, you are a terror, indeed!

~~~~~~~o-<
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.
+ =

reply

[–] Darryl The Hitman 10 years ago

I guess myer will have to post the screenshot but the guy who killed Rebecca had a full head of brown hair.

Feel free to visit the board I own at http://z6.invisionfree.com/boardwitheverything :)

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[–] Dariush72 10 years ago

On another note Darryl, I dont know if you have seen the summerslam axxess panel or are a fan of video games.....(If you havent seen it, here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_YYqaeUjA......but aside from all the fun and talking something got me thinking........The company revealed its roaster for 2k15 and spent 5 seconds each on almost everyone of superstars old or new except Kane and a few other.......Its like Darren Young, Justin Gabriel and Damien Sandow were far more important to be shown than 12 times tag team champion and one of the companies most experienced workers Kane......even in the Raws and Smackdowns from last weeks, you can clearly see a pattern.....If Kane is Placed in a solo or Tag team Match, the only reason for him being there is to receive multiple finishers and get pinned.....how many weeks in a row has Kane being Speared by Roman Reigns or AA'd by Cena?.....Just take a look at last week...He ate two AA's from Cena and was hopelessly wandering in the ring for Roman to spear him and pin him.....its like the character is being milked till death, even his pyro which in my opinion was an attraction is removed and weeks of defeat and humiliation has gotten fans in a state of dullness towards the character....I know he is retiring and putting others over, but I do not think its a good retirement program for someone as experienced as Kane......why is this happening?....is this coming from the lack of care within WWE for the Character? or Kane simply does what others rarely accept to do?

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[–] Darryl The Hitman 10 years ago

Kane is in the same line as Mick Foley, The Rock, and Chris Jericho. He will put anyone over without complaining if it helps the company. Like those other 3, he knows his character is over with the crowd and no matter how much he loses, the crowds will always want to see him. And yes, this is rare--many (most?) wrestlers will complain about some things they have to do.

Feel free to visit the board I own at http://z6.invisionfree.com/boardwitheverything :)

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[–] Dariush72 10 years ago

Well I seriously doubt either one of Chris Jericho or The Rock or even Foley himself have ever experienced utter beat down 6 weeks in a row but I dont know, since you are the veteran person on Wrestling, Maybe you are right.........

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

Easy compare to Priest/Preacher, etc

As they 'symbolize' Jesus to Followers

Do they now?

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[–] edisonnosidE 10 years ago

All in!

~~~~~~~o-<
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.
+ =

reply

[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
as so often, threads within thread, so do your 'bread crumb homework' to figure out what connects to where and when, diggo el drifto ? ... gracias da kine
.

Dariush and Darryl ... have an 'Idea' of what you two talking about, but no friggin' idea what you're saying - all that 'Rassle Speak' ... Love It (smile) ... great example of the 'Global Village Connect' Wrestling gives us ... and great example here of how we can 'Mentalize' from 'one thing' to 'another thing' in our PJ/RJ Journey ... but that may need some 'speak' we have yet to invent ? ... so please continue to 'work those shoots', here there anywhere everywhere (SMILE)

.

Ed da Sun Snake Man Kat Lady ... "All In" ? ?

Well of course YOU would go "All In" ... no problem for you, you part of the 'House', getting 10% cut off the top of every bet placed, win or lose, etc etc ... and not be surprised if you also Yakuza ? (Hello Kitty ... meow meow ... dot dot dot)

.

Now Hue Our Favorite Bue

And curious about something not brought up before ... of your "Hue" ... been thinking the pronounce is like "Who" but could be "Way", dig ? ... so maybe clear that up for us ? (ty) ... and of course that "Bue" is simply 'BOO', unless it's 'Boo-eee' or 'Buoy' ... or ... is 'all of that' some yin/yang suomi game you playing on us ? (winky snarky huggy)

Ok ... of your 'most recent post' ... you 'point to' a Major Thing in The Show ... That Yin/Yang Stuff of PJ and RJ and Individualism and Collectivism and Good and Evil and Life and Death ... and on and on ... and yes, is not something we can easily 'describe/define' and 'talk about' in one single post (or thread, or threads) ... has taken Bruno/Team all these years to 'show' it to us in the Show, and in spite of any 'debacley feelings and preceptions' am confident this 'Big Picture' is easy to 'get/see/comprehend' ... least has been for me, but wtf do I know ? ... just some sailor hippie beatnik artiste bohemian type (with a side order of 'currahee') sitting under some 'tree' contemplating the navigation of my navel, eh ? (WINK)

But let's all keep working it along, and 'in time' ... those 'very deep subjects' ... all that 'subtext' and 'symbolism' stuff will become more evident as we find - and invent - the proper language needed to 'see/understand, talk about, etc' this Voyage which (imho) is going/gone where very few (if any) Shows have been before (especially on USA Network TV) ... and yea, always remember, Show not yet over, ride still going, so keep them hands and feet inside car at all times until we come to a 'complete stop' (etc etc, ty ty)

.

And Meyer ...

Thanks for that "Lay Down"

As we go, and as we've been doing, happy to figure and 'head scratch' (and continue to share/talk, etc) about those various 'Surface Elements' of 'Plot Contrivances and Deus ex Machina' ... and all of that kind of 'stuff' ... and yes, confident 'some parts' will be easy to 'see' and understand, and 'agree upon' ... but can be some 'other parts' ?

And here's where you need to make another "Lay Down"

How much do you REALLY know about "behind curtain stuff" ?

Have YOU even been 'behind any curtains' ? ... have you ever 'worked a room' ? ... have you even been in 'The Biz' ? ... and don't need to be at that 'Hollywood Level' or even in the 'Carney Circuit', but need to be 'Experienced' (and not necessarily stoned, but beautiful ... so to jimi speak)

And ... just 'reading stuff' in some Blog (or 'News Report', etc) on Internet ? ... sorry, not fly, not 'work' ... and another 'game' unto itself ... so if you want to 'go there' ? ... then need to also 'show' you have Experience in THAT 'game' as well

AND ... Trust Me (or not) ... I Am Very Experienced at Both Games (and very stoned and beautiful from/by them, etc etc ;-)

Because ... (and what this part been leading to)

Am Very Confident some 'behind the curtain stuff' happened with Bruno/Team/Show and CBS ... and yes, we've talked about some of this before ... but (and read 'that' above, ty) ... not so easy to talk about 'something' with someone who's never 'been there', does not know the 'game' ... sorry ... and unless you 'show/prove' to me that you DO 'know the game', that you are 'Experienced' ? ... then sorry, I'll only frustrate you further with our conversations on these 'cloak and dagger subjects'

And think of 'all that' ... this 'process' ... as what we just saw up above with Darryl and Dariush ... their 'inside knowledge and experience' of Wrestling ... how they are able to cut across cultural gaps/language, etc ... and instantly connect on a 'very complicated subject' ... dig ?

So you let me know, either in 'open' or 'private message' ... what you 'know', your 'experience' in these 'matters' ... THEN we can find the 'common language of mutual experience' to easily share info, and compare notes or 'reads/tells' etc

Otherwise ? ... happy to talk about 'surface stuff', but that will be about as 'deep' as we can go 'behind any curtains' ... unless you 'pull back your curtains' to 'show' me what your 'game' may be ... DIG ? (winky smiley etc etc, ty ty)

.

And Everyone

(as finally wrap this non-garrolous prosaic ramble ... grrrrr)

Somewhere here back along 'The Way' ... 'someone' (won't say who it was, sorry) ... was 'on my azz' about 'something', and it connected with my 'snarky quickies' and how I'm always 'dancing around' the 'get to the point' type of stuff ... and sorry if 'that' (my poetics) pizz's them off, and maybe I could have been more 'huggy feely' with them, but did as they asked and ... 'got to the point' ... which was (and let's do be more 'huggy feely' here this time) ... sorry, but am very cautious about where/how/etc "cast pearls" (yea, another 'so to speak' and if need ? ... then do your 'look up' to fully 'get it', ty)

Well ... hope all can know, 'see', understand the conundrum in that 'casting process' as it applies to a 'place' like this - unknown strangers behind the mask of the internet, no idea who/what may be 'reading' this, or what they may be 'up to' with 'whatever' etc etc ... yea, and if not 'get' that ? ... then go to your nearest coffee/tea room and sit at table and start talking chit OUT LOUD FOR REAL ... then see how long before the 'authorities' come along to help you find your way to the front door, dig ?

So as we all 'get better' at this PJ Mentalizing Process, which we are helping to 'invent' here with 'Internet Global Communications' (yea, 'literally' going where no bodys gone before, DIG ? ) ... then we will find 'ways/languages, etc' to more fully understand and share with one another ... and not allow any 'RJ/TBA Types' to 'steal those pearls', then take it to THEIR 'pen' to use for what may be some 'not good purposes' (yea ... winky grrrry)

And in this 'pearl/casting process' here

Keep close eye on that Snake Man

(probably Grasshopper too ? )

Got a Very Strong Feeling

Knows 'pens' well

(oinky oinky ;-)

.

And PS Hue ...

Yes, they do ... but hope you don't expect me to give you a 2,000 year history explain of christianity and how it 'works' ? ... or if you like, can use/say the same/similar example of Buddha and those 'followers', but that is a 3000 year story ... OR ... maybe just think of 'Modern World' and how so many Kidz today have "Models" as their 'Role Models' ... strike that pose kidz, you too can look "marvelous" ... and available at a store near you, or simply order online at Amazon (free shipping included)

.

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[–] myerhead 10 years ago

So you let me know, either in 'open' or 'private message' ... what you 'know', your 'experience' in these 'matters' ... THEN we can find the 'common language of mutual experience' to easily share info, and compare notes or 'reads/tells' etc

Otherwise ? ... happy to talk about 'surface stuff', but that will be about as 'deep' as we can go 'behind any curtains' ... unless you 'pull back your curtains' to 'show' me what your 'game' may be ... DIG ? (winky smiley etc etc, ty ty)

Pardon my French, but bullsh*t!

Answer the f---ing question!

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[–] myerhead 10 years ago

I'll continue to reply in-line, so we're not chasing threads within a thread:

Huebuebue asked:

I'll have to jump in here and point out that in 2x23, Simon Baker made a double role. He was both Jane and Red John.

Or, uh, did I understand b. right? Because honestly it seems a little contradictory with f...

What I mean is all the "appearances" by "Red John" were actually the one and only Red John. In my opinion, it wasn't a disciple who met Jane 'face-to-face' in 2x23, it wasn't a disciple who killed Rebecca in 2x8, and it wasn't a disciple in the shanty in 1x23, etc, etc.

Now... when I say it was actually Red John who killed Rebecca in 2x8, that doesn't mean I believe the person we saw a glimpse of was Thomas McAllister (Xander Berkeley). It clearly was not. But, as the facts indicate, McAllister (Berkeley) wasn't chosen to be Red John until much later.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Well Meyer ...

To "answer a f---ing question" ? ?

You just told us what you "do not believe"

What "was not"

So ... what DO you "believe" ?

What "was" ?

(and "clearly" or otherwise ? ... wink)

.

Oh ps ... of Bue's Question

Simon just did a 'voice over'

Simple post process editing stuff

Especially when 'lips not move' ;-)

.

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[–] myerhead 10 years ago

Well Meyer ...

To "answer a f---ing question" ? ?

Yup. This one, which was asked most-recently yesterday. And the one you said you'd answer once I put my 'cards on the table'.

Since I have stated I would happily and gladly change my opinion of the RJ reveal from 'debacle' to something else if the case is re-visited, I have to ask (again, for what seems like the 100th time):

If the RJ case is not re-visited, and episode 6x08 was truly the "end" for McA/RJ/Blake Association/etc, would you change your view that RJ is "groupthink" or "many" or "there is still stuff behind the curtain", etc??

So answer the question.

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

Simon just did a 'voice over'

In the same interview in which he revealed that he did the voice, he also claimed that he was the one behind the mask. That's what he said, anyway.

Even if it was someone else, it most certainly wasn't Berkeley, if that's what you're suggesting... You don't need an X-ray stare to see that it was nowhere near McA's body type.

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

Okay, that cleared it up, thanks!

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[–] myerhead 10 years ago

I've touched on this before.

bc, when backed into a corner, your grasping-at-straws defense for Heller is to declare TPTB at CBS pulled the trigger on the series, made him rush, made him reveal faster than he otherwise would have, etc, etc. Whatever. Just more 'cover' for Heller and more unsubstantiated speculation on your part.

Well, my comeback was, and has been... even if we assume it to be true (I'm not, but just for argument's sake in this instance):

a. by saying that, you're acknowledging the RJ reveal was sub-par, and

b. Heller still had 8 hour-long episodes to tell the story in Season 6, which is more air time than the morsels we received about the RJ case in 5 previous seasons of the show.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Bue ... hang on a minute, ty

.

Meyer, let me know when/if you'll ever answer any of my questions ?

If you'll show me/yourself/anyone ... what is "behind your curtain" ?

Then we'll try again ... thanks

.

Bue ...

What is the "that" which "the significance of a priest figure is a li-ttle more multidimensional than" ?

... thank you too

.

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

If you allow me to butt in, Myer has an excellent point there. If we're really going down the kayfabe/behind the scenes road, we can just go ahead and argue that everything has something going on behind the scenes. And while this is, obviously, more or less true, what does that make your life, and your view of the world? Ever heard of this psychological phenomenon called paranoia? How have your relationships been lately? How are you able to enjoy any form of art if you're stuck on what's "real" and what isn't? And do you really believe that you would, under any circumstances at all, be able to see the "truth"? Or is it possible that there'd just be another layer of kayfabe discovered underneath?

What about The Mentalist? Are you able to enjoy the show without knowing or speculating what's happening behind the scenes?

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Sorry ... these replies and edits are all out of sequence

Read above and good luck ... laters

(smile)

.

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

Bc, you're playing stupid again! You know what I meant.

Oh, and you know that "if you show me your true self, I'll give you a rainbow" talk is crap. I've been nothing but straightforward and honest with you about my personal life. Where's my rainbow? No, all you do with that personal information is learning how to push other people's buttons and trying to manipulate them into becoming your disciples.

Good thing I'm a tough cookie to break in that department, eh? :D I'm too honest for ya to handle.

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

Haha, the Hues and Bues got nothing to do with Winland. Try Brazil. :)

So, uh, what's your personal experience/connection with Christianity and religious systems in general? 'Cause I'm pretty sure that the Christians and other active church-goers that I know would cringe at what you're suggesting. I myself am pretty much cringing here. Naw, it feels to me that you're, once again, seeing what you want to see. I'd dare say that the significance of a priest figure is a li-ttle more multidimensional than that.

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[–] myerhead 10 years ago

bcthedj asked:

McA ... THE Sheriff of Napa County

Was Guy walking in The Open at CBI

In Basement Corridor, past 2 Guards

"Hand Wipe" with Rebecca ... THEN

Simply walked out of CBI ... 'Poof'

a. Napa to Sacramento was 60 miles away. No reason for any CBI staff to recognize a "small-town" sheriff who lived and worked that far away.

b. The killer was caught on camera entering the building, but not exiting.

c. He had a legit uniform on, no reason for the guards to suspect anything.

d. It was a big building (five floors plus a basement) with many people working there... the killer did not stand out.

e. Additional reasons to suspect Partridge, as he would have had access to uniforms and after the killing, he could have taken off the uniform and 'quietly' returned to his job within the building, and the body-type and hair we glimpsed resembled Partridge's body style and hair. However, Rebecca's initial reaction (remember, she told Jane RJ loved her) and Smith's story in Season 6 indicated it was RJ.

f. It wasn't RJ's first narrow escape, wouldn't be his last:

1. Hiding behind a door which is almost but never opened (1x23).
2. Escapes into shadows from same shanty moments later (1x23).
3. Escapes from Kristina Frye's home after kidnapping her (2x23).
4. Escapes from home after mortally wounding Kira Tinsley. (6x5).
5. Escapes from Jared's hotel room (1x11).
6. Hiding with the two dead bodies in the flashback at Visualize farm (5x13).

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[–] myerhead 10 years ago

Darryl wrote:

I guess myer will have to post the screenshot but the guy who killed Rebecca had a full head of brown hair.

Here ya go:
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b2/HerdYou/mentalistredjohnhair_zpsd e113c84.png

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

One more narrow (and a very mysterious) escape: In episode 1x23, the former boyfriend of the kidnapped twin told the CBI team that someone, who was in all probability Red John, had snuck into his room and left a pig's severed head by his bedside even though the door and the windows were locked.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Meyer ... Luv Ya Man, but

Sorry, easy 'see' - you never been to California

You dunno know how "far away" is "far away"

"60 Miles" ain't chit, hop/skip on Freeways

Yea, that place not your place ... sorry

And Napa is "small-town" ?

Hey Goldberry ... explain to him ?

... ty

.

So Please, restart/work on your "Start Point A"
Then we 'see' how you move along from there
... ty

Oh ... hint hint ... 'primum movens'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmoved_mover

.................

Now ... Huey Our Dorothy of Buey

Up Above ... 8 or 9 hours ago, that one

Wrote some 'things/questions' for Meyer

Why you think they apply/written to you ?

Does the 'shoe fit' ?

(winky huggy ;-)

.

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

Which one of my numerous buttings-in are you referring to?

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
"BUTT-ings-in" ?

That some kind of Kardashian Bubble Thing ?

(snarky huggy ;-)

.

And out of curiosity, just did a 'look up'

Now know how/why they are 'famous'

Their Father was one of OJ's Lawyers

Learn something new everyday, eh ?

(like how Hollyweird 'works', wink)

.

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

Huh, I thought the butt that's all the rage nowadays was Nicki Minaj's... I know nothing about Kardashian butts. Is that a big deal too? You didn't answer my question, though. I'm in the dark.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Ok, guess just not up on the 'rage nowadays'

I ain't Hip to the 'Latest Hips' (so to speak)

.

Well ... to 'maybe' answer your question ? (least try ? )

The 'long post' of mine above was split into 'segments'

Some for Meyer, some for you ... and other folks too

And your 'follow ups' seemed to 'mix them together'

Least to some degree in a sense, on and on ... but

Please, let's not spend 3 days sorting it out, ok ?

(thanky huggy ;-)

.

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[–] Huebuebue 10 years ago

Oh, okay... That's very much possible. I've kinda lost track of the threads and sub-threads and sub-sub-threads myself, so. Are you referring to what I said about the kayfabe thing? If so, then you'll have to explain to me what it is that I said that doesn't "apply"...

Going back to the topic of religion and priests for a moment, I would say that to Christians, in addition to being the symbol of a redeemer, Jesus also has the significance of a legend, or a myth. Something that's sort of unreachable. So no, I don't think a priest represents that same mythicality. I think they've got a function of their own in the religious system. But hey, that's just my take on this.

Also, uh, this is not entirely related to anything discussed here, but have you ever considered the possibility that you might be stuck on the global-societal undercurrents of the Cold War, and you may not be able to see how much the world has changed in twenty-something years...? Because it kinda sorta feels like that to me sometimes. It's hard to point my finger at it, but I occasionally sense the old dualistic power structures in your musings.

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[–] edisonnosidE 10 years ago

Like it or not, we are all products of our environment.

Church leaders (priests, et. al.) are 'revered' - they are special, and make us feel that we are not - contrary to the teachings of Jesus (damn Saul of Tarsus!)

Some of us lived through the "Cold War," had bunkers (such fools we were, and are) and feared the nuclear holocaust. Some still do. We also remember our ABCs and times tables.

It's hard trying to put all the RJ /PJ details into a head full of such 'stuff,' but I am impressed at the progress in dialectical converse this board has comprised.

~~~~~~~o-<
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.
+ =

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[–] 10 years ago

[deleted]

[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Go here with this Post, but has 'Great Connect' to recent posts in Season 7 Thread, which has become a bit too 'inter-twined' and could use a LOT of 'un-raveling' (imho)

.

Meyer, Hue, Kwho, RF, Dariush ... Everyone (including myself)

... and our little grasshoppers too

(winky smile)

But Ed da Sun ... yea, know you already "Know"

(da kine)

.

Please ... Nota Bene

Reveals, Revelations, Apocalypses, and 'related stuff'

Not always what they 'seem' ... never have been, sorry

'Standard Interpretations' are only for 'Mass Consumption'

Or to appease the Sponsors ... befuddle the Curtain Pullers

Take Real Journey ... Sit Under 'Tree' ... Leap Into Abyss

Are 1,000,000 Paths to get "There" ... and once YOU Do

THEN you will 'easy see' the Red John Revealing Truth

But ... YOU must MAKE that 'Journey' ... 'Fer Real'

Can not just 'read about it' or 'watch some show'

... Experience is Funny Animal that Way ...

... eh ?

(tao ;-)

.

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[–] edisonnosidE 10 years ago

Forgotten, but not gone?

Or gone but not forgotten?

Remember to scroll down past the ads....

http://www.motifake.com/smile-warmth-smile-sunset-summer-smiley-demoti vational-posters-108670.html

Painted over Planet Earth.... or the oceans, or all of us.

~~~~~o-<
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.
+ =

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Make This Journey ... Cross This Bridge

http://z6.invisionfree.com/BoardWithEverything/index.php?showtopic=484 2&view=findpost&p=22045196

Something Very Special on 'Other Side'

(smile)

.

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[–] myerhead 10 years ago

Make this Journey...

I had a piece of lint in my belly button this morning.

So did Bruno Heller.

Coincidence? I think not!!

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[–] k_who 10 years ago

A Very Special Piece of Lint, I am sure. Treasure it.

____________________________________
http://tinyurl.com/PoisonousZoo

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[–] myerhead 10 years ago

In related "journeys"....

Van Pelt once had her fingernails painted silver.

The silver state is Nevada.

Nevada has casinos.

New Jersey has casinos.

Lisbon wore a football jersey in 2x03.

Van Pelt's father was a football coach.

.... this undeniably proves bruno is a genius who has tied his entire series together... still working on some of the loose ends. (winky-wink, laters)

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[–] k_who 10 years ago

still working on some of the loose ends. (winky-wink, laters)

You do that.

We will be waiting for your report.

With a bated breath.

___________________________________
http://tinyurl.com/PoisonousZoo

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Holy Moly Head Man ...

... and your little kwho too

(winky smiley)

Thank You Both Very Very Much

Or else may never had THIS Massive Apocalypse

Involves that 'stuff' you call "coincidence"

And what Dariush could probably explain with ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serendipity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three_Princes_of_Serendip

Another 'Bridge to There' is conscious/unconscious ... design/happenchance

And know PJ knows THAT 'stuff' from the Episode (forget which, sorry)

When he was reading Carl Jung's ... Modern Man in Search of a Soul

Which has a Chapter that goes a little something like this ...

Jung divides all works of art into two distinct forms, psychological and visionary. “The psychological work of art always takes its materials from the vast real of conscious human experience—from the vivid foreground of life, we might say.” What is currently classified as mainstream or realism.

“The latter [visionary] reverses all the conditions of the former [psychological]. The experience that furnishes the material for artistic expression is no longer familiar. It is a strange something that derives its existence from the hinterlands of man’s mind—that suggests the abyss of time separating us from pre-human ages, or evokes a superhuman world of contrasting light and darkness.”

Jung’s model would classify all serious imaginative literature, including the classics like Homer, Virgil, and Beowulf, as Visionary Fiction.

And THAT, as just learned (again, ty ty ty)

'The Bridge' to this ...

Visionary Fiction

... emerged as a distinct literary genre around the turn of the millennium, is a literary form that illustrates and demonstrates the process of growth in human consciousness. While it contains an all-inclusive spiritual component and often makes use of paranormal modes of perception, it employs story elements—plot, character, setting—rather than the exposition of specific teachings or practices, to immerse the reader into the drama of awareness evolving.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visionary_fiction

Yea ... no idea 'that' existed as an 'Official Academic Thing'

And sure helps me "tie up a lot of loose ends" in our Journey

Especially those Bruno 'The Pontiff Bridge Builder' ... and Team

Have taken us across to ...

You Know Who's Visionary Apocalyptic Visualizations (insert smiley devil face here)

(again, ty both, very very much ;-)

.

AND ... yea IMDb ... whole new set of 'graphical stuff'

Grrrrrr ... bye bye 'devilconf' and other 'fun things'

Work on 'youse guys' ... . 😈👿😸

( ¿ hummm ? )

.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Just a little quickie check in about this week's journey/wanderings, found some 'good stuff', other 'shows/stories' with that 'mentalistic artistic fit' as jenny say qua ... and (kinda) have bunch of vids/links/notes, etc in a 'pile' (think leverage, mash, noexpo, gotham, others) and as we go will (eventually) coherently pile at DTH's Place so everyone has a better chance to understand 'jenny' (yea sorry, that 'say qua' can be hard to follow at times, especially for anyone who reads english, wink)

And ... 'bottom line' about 'debacle/whatever' ?

Gonna have to look into some 'mirror(s)' ... the RJ in there in each of us, how it is one/many with TBA Backup, all that kinda stuff ... and must also include 'my mirror' ... so not go 'there' lightly, or in haste (aye)

Ok, thanky and laters . 

(smile)

.

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[–] bcthedj 10 years ago

'
Mentalistic Re-Review and Restart Reconnoiter

http://z6.invisionfree.com/BoardWithEverything/index.php?showtopic=484 2&view=findpost&p=22047599

(enjoy ;-)
.

Oh, and PS ...

Put this one here, look for another over at DTH's Place

Happy Thanksgiving Weekend/Time to Everyone

And for 'Non-Merican types', do your 'look ups' to learn all about it (ty)

Well ... on 'personal note', tell you this about that ...

My Grandpappy (about x15) did not attend the First Thanksgiving

But he was there for the 9th ... uh huh, and do that 'math' (tyvm)

Now get some 'leftover stuff' ready for The Big Show Tonight

(munchy wunchy)

.

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[–] bcthedj 9 years ago

'
Ok ... put this here, only 'place' it may 'fit' ... and sure is Revelatory/Apocalyptic

Recent past Thursday, Mentalist Re-Run Syndication showing on 'TV Net Something'

They had End Season 1x23 Red John's Footsteps ... and we/PJ 'meet' Rosalind Harker

One Very Very Important Scene ... as get to Rosalind's House, she/team start talking, then she runs away, goes upstairs to her room, closes door and PJ follows, he talks with her from the Hallway, through that closed door, tells her the 'story' of his Family, why he's there, his 'Quest' etc (got all that ? ... ty)

Well ... The Thing during that 'scene', and find your own way of 'watching/review'

Camera pans up/back, we see them on opposite sides of wall between Hallway/Bedroom

We're shown the 'fake wall, stage set' separating PJ/Rosalind as they're talking during Scene

THAT is what's know in Cinema as ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-diegetic_insert

And 'same thing' occurs in another Episode/Scene between Grace and Bret Stiles when he is 'locked up' in Jail Cell Basement of the CBI ... camera pans back to 'show' us the 'fake wall/metal bars' in that Scene

And maybe are 'Other Similar Scenes' over the course of the Series ? ... dunno, but 'if so' ? ... then not many, and will be 'looking' now, and hope any/all of you do the same ... because

This is a Big Deal

The Mentalist Series/Story is full of countless 'Metaphorical Motifs and Symbols' and that kind of 'stuff' ... but those are 'Representational' ... not meant to be 'taken literally', but require us to 'read between lines' (etc)

However ... these 'Fake Walls' ARE Literal ... they are 'shown'

Ok ... so 'why' ? ... what do these Scenes say on some 'deeper level' about that 'surface level' and how those 'Shots/Scenes' were "Breaking the 4th Wall", literally and symbolically.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_wall

On and on, but hope everyone can 'see' what trying to 'point to' here ?

And like me, all of us will watch/rewatch those Scenes ... look for other 'similars'

Then perhaps we can 'find' some newer/better understanding(s) of PJ/RJ and Grand Arc

... thanks

(smile)

.

Oh ... PS

Other 'easy quick examples' of these Cinematic/Narrative Processes
Like the ones mentioned above, and also include ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diegesis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimesis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief
... etc etc

Those 'Presto Road Runner Drives/Trips' to some 'place' in the Real World of California (or Texazz) that would take 6 hours, but PJ/Team can do them in 5 minutes

And ... The Magical 2 Year Tardis Leap between 6x08 and 6x09

Like everyone ... am still trying to figure out what they 'mean'

But very confident of this ... They Do Mean 'Something'

And imho ... good 'place' to start that 'sniffing'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory

(beep beep)

.

AND ... PSS

As we're about to 'see' in about 10 minutes, as just now 'teased' in some Promo Ad

New Mentalist Episode 28 Dec 2014 ... we 'look' inside some 'Magic Briefcase'

Could it be the 'Same One' that Quinten used in "Pulp Fiction" ?

Or maybe JJ LaRoche's Pandora Tupperware Container ?

Well ... find out in about 5 minutes

(voila)

.

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[–] myerhead 9 years ago

You keep imagining things, trying to find some deeper meaning. What a colossal waste of time!

Last week's episode began with Lisbon trying on a pink diamond. Pink is a shade of red. Red John. Coincidence?? I think not! An a-ha moment if I've ever seen one!! (Pause to see the rabbit running off down the trail)

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[–] edisonnosidE 9 years ago

Damn, meyer, if he's got the time to waste... let him waste it!

People told Edison, Tesla, the Wright Brothers and many other successful people that they were wasting their time.

Follow them rabbits! (IF they have a timepiece.)

🐍
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.
 +  = 

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[–] bcthedj 9 years ago

'
Meyer ... sorry, no ... not "imagining" anything

Those scenes/shots are real, right there for you/me/all to 'see', go look

And not "trying" to find some "deeper meaning" ... already found it, only thing now ?

What does it "mean" ? ... how "deep" does it go ? ... and what is it saying to you/me/all ?

To borrow from Joe Campbell, "Is it doing us any good, putting us in touch with our inner self and the foundation of our existence" (etc and paraphrased 'to that effect')

If not ? ... then probably is a "waste of time" ... but short of shoving food in our mouth, or finding shelter in a storm, or fire when freezing, or running away from some tyger tyger ... isn't everything a "waste of time" ? ... so if we are going to "waste" it ? ... then yea, imho, let's go "Colossal"

And Ed ... thanks for that 'six' (wink) ... and know you already 'know all this', cause you are 'Experienced' ... and maybe Meyer (others) one day will 'see/learn', and hopefully not the 'hard way' ... yep, know you, like me, not want anyone to go through that (grrrrr)

And Everyone ... let's use the 'thing' in last night's Episode as a 'talisman' here

Call it the 'rabbit' in this Briefcase Tale, and easy to 'see' from one scene

As PJ say, "Yes, curiosity killed the cat, but it also cured polio"

(meow)

.

And PS Darryl ...

In 'some thread' you mention this Episode's Ending and Sherlock

Well, ahem ... 'Red Maple Sherlock', what THAT all about

... eh ?

(tick tock ;-)

.

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[–] myerhead 9 years ago

Other "food" we've been given by bcthedj. (I use quotes because I'm starving! There is a difference between something useful versus exercises in futility!):

a. titles of books being read by the show's characters

b. titles of books on shelves

c. different types of tea sipped on by Patrick

d. just about every Hitchcock movie ever made (to say nothing of Agatha Christie and all the versions of Sherlock Holmes)

e. Joe Campbell theories

f. good/evil... yin/yang

g. Bruno Heller's family/father's "history"

h. CBS Les Moonbeam "forced the RJ reveal"

i. All Blake Association members are or could be a "Red John"

j. Red John is groupthink/many

k. Patrick killed RJ with his left hand (insert eerie sound here)

l. Crossing certain bridges in Sacramento

m. Songs playing in the background

n. Connections to Ronald Reagan

o. Finally, we have heard a million times from bc to "keep our hands inside the car until it comes to a halt", as if the back half of Season 6 was going to reveal all the answers/explanations... and/or the 13-episode Season 7 was going to reveal the "REAL" truth!

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[–] Darryl The Hitman 9 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherlock_Holmes#Retirement

Feel free to visit the board I own at http://z6.invisionfree.com/boardwitheverything :)

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[–] bcthedj 9 years ago

'
Whoa Meyer ...

You could be keeping better 'notes' on my stuff than me ?

(you 'head' you ;-)

.

And as a point of clarification ...

Should not say "Joe Campbell theories", but ... Joe's Theory

To paraphrase ...

"Only One Mythology in World ... One Story ... just altered to fit each who, what, where, when, etc"

And not really 'His Theory', but more like 'Icing on Cake as Mixed/Baked' by Freud/Jung, those Ol' Greek Guys, Biblicals, Orientals, Toltecs, and 'many others' reaching back to Antiquity (and maybe 'beyond' ? ... wink)

And you/everyone invited to DTH's Place to 'Experience' a few of Joe's Videos

http://z6.invisionfree.com/BoardWithEverything/index.php?showtopic=484 5

And might even have some kind of 'Apocalyptic Mentalist Visualization'

... Voila ...

(smile)

.

And PS Darryl ... Thanks

But that's kinda 'generalized'

The basic idea of 'retirement', yea ?

What had me 'nervous' ? and if Sherlock did 'same' ?

Specific idea of 'getting a boat and sailing the world'

(yea, like Bruno was 'reading my mind', eh ? ... grrrrr)

.

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[–] Darryl The Hitman 9 years ago

Did you even listen to the end of the show or read the paragraph to which I linked you? If so, one word should have leapt out at you.

Feel free to visit the board I own at http://z6.invisionfree.com/boardwitheverything :)

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[–] bcthedj 9 years ago

'
Meyer ... Everyone

Some 'answers' (?) to some 'questions' (?) from above ...

...

a. titles of books being read by the show's characters
b. titles of books on shelves
m. Songs playing in the background
g. Bruno Heller's family/father's "history"

Just 'basic background insights/understandings'
Connect Team/Crew across/with/to Show/Story
Get Deeper Reads/Tells/Seeings ... Fuller Flavor

...

h. CBS Les Moonbeam "forced the RJ reveal"

Need to see 'quoted passage' in full context
So we can get all of that snarky flavor ?
(urp)

...

c. different types of tea sipped on by Patrick

Think that 'list' was someone else's
But maybe help with 'set up/start'
(sip sip)

...

d. just about every Hitchcock movie ever made (to say nothing of Agatha Christie and all the versions of Sherlock Holmes)

Yea, couple of Alfred's more 'arty farty films'
They're a bit much to easily digest
So left those off the List

But all the 'Brit Lit Canon Stuff'
Blame that on Darryl, eh ?
(wink)

...

e. Joe Campbell theories
f. good/evil... yin/yang

Well, hope self evident (?)
(tao)

...

i. All Blake Association members are or could be a "Red John"
j. Red John is groupthink/many

Standard Literary Archetype/Motif/Metaphor Yada Yadas

...

k. Patrick killed RJ with his left hand (insert eerie sound here)

Thank You Ed da kine Sun (rising up)
That was his 'Paying Attention'
And Great Significance
Left/Right Yin/Yang
(read above, ty)

...

l. Crossing certain bridges in Sacramento

Tower Pontiff Pax Californiest

...

n. Connections to Ronald Reagan

Sorry, but gonna have to wait for 'the book'
That story too good to give away fer free
(smile)

...

o. Finally, we have heard a million times from bc to "keep our hands inside the car until it comes to a halt", as if the back half of Season 6 was going to reveal all the answers/explanations... and/or the 13-episode Season 7 was going to reveal the "REAL" truth!

Any 'Truth' we can get from Show
Whatever it is they 'show' us
So until the Show is 'fin' ?
(beep beep)

...

Ok, hope that helps with Mentalist Mentalizations and Visualizations

(so to speak)

===

Now ... Please

Everybody Sing Along on this Harry Heller Mash Up

Patrick Jane was a man with two first names 
They left him in the railroad yard when they took away the trains  
Only one run a week comes on roaring down that line  
So all he's got to worry 'bout is time.

I come by in the evening to hear 'bout where he's been  
He says - Come on sit down Kid, where shall I begin?
 He starts telling me the stories of the glories of his past  
But he always saves the story of his Lisbon for the last.

And he says - My Lisbon's coming. No more sad stories coming 
My midnight-moonlight-morning-glory's coming aren't you girl? 
And like I told you, when she holds you
 She enfolds you in her world.

I was quite surprised to find out all the places that he knew
 And so I asked the townfolk if his stories were true  
They said - PJ was born here, he's lived here all his life  
He's never had a woman, let alone a wife.

And very soon you'll find out as you check around  
That no one named Lisbon ever lived in this town
 So I chided the old man 'bout the truth that I had heard  
He smiled and said - Reality is only just a word.

And he says - My Lisbon's coming. No more sad stories coming
 My midnight-moonlight-morning-glory's coming aren't you girl?
 And like I told you, when she holds you  
She enfolds you in her world.

I came by one evening but he did not hear my shout  
I looked in the window and saw the fire was out  
When he would not wake up I forced in the door  
And found that Patrick Jane would tell stories no more.

The scene at the graveyard, three of us were there  
Me and the gravedigger, we heard the parson's prayer
 He said - We need not grieve for this man
For we know that God cares!

They put the cold dirt over him and left me on my own
 And when at last I looked up I saw I was not alone  
So I said - If you're a relative, he had a peaceful end.  
She said - My name is Lisbon - you can say I'm just a friend.

Lisbon's coming, no more sad stories coming
 My midnight-moonlight-morning-glory's coming aren't you girl?
 And like I told you, when she holds you  
She enfolds you in her world.

So that's the old man's story, I'm glad you came tonight  
A busted down old railroad yard sure makes a lonely sight
 You may wonder why a young man would work out here alone  
Well the job pays enough to keep some flesh on my bones.

And I confess I get to missing the old man a bit  
And there's one other reason I guess I should admit -

Can't you see my Lisbon's coming, no more sad stories coming  
My midnight-moonlight-morning-glory's coming aren't you girl?  
And like he told me, when she holds me  
She enfolds me in her world.

(and bruno … keep the change ;-)
.

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[–] myerhead 9 years ago

No matter how hard you try, you can't explain away ridiculousness.

It doesn't matter what book Cho was reading in the middle of the fourth season. It doesn't matter which bridge they crossed in a season 5 episode. It doesn't matter that a 'groupthink' murder occurred in the third overall episode. It doesn't matter what hitchcockian camera angle they used in a Season 7 episode.

Bruno picked someone who had ONE SINGLE non-impactful appearance in the SECOND EPISODE of the entire series to serve as, up to that point, one of the greatest 'big bads' in television history. And if THAT wasn't bad enough, the episode in which RJ was revealed was horrible -- an absolute debacle.

But bcPeter, keep hopping down those bunny trails and keep us enlightened! None of us are able to see the actual truth. It's only you, bcPeter.

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[–] edisonnosidE 9 years ago

Sorry, myer. EVERYTHING matters.

If you don't believe that, look at some of the book title and backgrounds in 'Blade Runner.' ALL relevant.
So why not here?

I believe, as you do, (I think) that we will never line up the clues (or red herrings) to a satisfying conclusion, but I think bc is doing an admirable job (for a dj) in connecting the disparity pieces and relating the storyboard to classical literature.
(Wait till he drops into Shakespeare!)

Reading his posts is more like a college course in itself, but he's educated, well-read and inquisitive. Good qualities.

It matters. Everything matters.

All is one, and one is all.
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.


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[–] Huebuebue 9 years ago

I, for one, do think that it's a fascinating approach to the show to look at the very details and find possible thematic hints in book titles etc. Unlike bc, though, I don't think it all rounds up in some grand, masterful plan of universal enlightenment created by Bruno Heller. It's more likely that those details were separate treats for attentive viewers dropped in by several individuals in charge of each episode in question. Also, it might've as well been Baker's doing more than anyone else's. He's the one who's actually been on the scene almost all the time - I highly doubt Heller has supervised every single frame of every episode the show.

In fact, lately I've begun to understand that his overall influence on the show along the way might've been a little exaggerated by, ahem, a certain someone here. Heller might've created the original premise, but The Mentalist as we've known and experienced can hardly be called "his creation". The recent interviews revealing TPTB intervention and whatnot as well as what I've learned about Baker's vast artistic liberties in Jane's characterization are kinda telling in that regard.

Hm, doesn't stop me from hating him for the debacle, though. I'll be happy to blame him for everything that went so horribly wrong, since he's supposed to be the one who could've not let it happen. I'm a tough cookie to please, eh?

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[–] myerhead 9 years ago

If you don't believe that, look at some of the book title and backgrounds in 'Blade Runner.' ALL relevant.
So why not here?

Because we already know the identity of Red John, and it's someone Bruno admittedly pulled out of thin air about a year prior to the reveal. So all the alleged "clues", "hints", "tells", and "Easter Eggs", if there ever were any, could NOT POSSIBLY have been related to McAllister. Simply not possible.

But gosh, bcPeter... don't let logic, reasoning, and facts block your way down those trails!

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[–] bcthedj 9 years ago

'
Myer, AGAIN ... Please ?

Give us the 'time mark, moment' in 6.08, as 'evidence'

When anything with 'Red John' was 'Confirmed Real Fact'

PJ made 'allegation/reference', but that merely his 'theory'

Only thing 'close' was McA, "I AM the Blake Association"

And all the 'blink blinks' later, at best just 'fuzzy winkys'

... thank you

.

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[–] myerhead 9 years ago

We can go round and round and round with this, which is evidently the exact thing you want to do.

But it all gets back to the point I was driving home yesterday, after driving it home last week, and after driving it home two weeks ago, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

The only reason for you to continue fishing for answers and trying to find pieces to a puzzle which don't exist is because you weren't provided the answers and the pieces in the reveal episode. Hence, the "debacle"!

Or it could be because you just can't believe McA was Red John. Or because you believe there has to be more to the story than what we were provided. Bottom line: you believe the reveal was lacking in some manner. It's the exact reason you have stated that even if there is no additional information regarding Red John in the remainder of Season 7, you will still not conclude that McAllister was Red John.

Regardless, it's time for you to produce evidence! Other than the fact McA never came out and said, "I am Red John", Patrick Jane certainly did! I already provided that clip to you. (And frankly, as I asked in the past, how many perps on the show actually came out and said, "I am Steve Brown, and I am guilty of the crimes you're accusing me of committing.")

And as I've said 1000 times, every single person involved with the show has said "That was Red John in 6x08. Red John is dead. Red John won't be brought up again." And when everyone involved with the show assumed the show was canceled at the end of Season 6, those promises held true. The show "ended" with no further mention of Red John. And now, here we are more than half-way through Season 7, and no further mention of RJ has taken place.

So what evidence do you have that says anything other than McA was Red John, and Red John was killed in 6x08?

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[–] bcthedj 9 years ago

'
My Head ... Sorry

This may be the 'first time' for you ?

Look in that RJ Mirror, Open that PJ Door ?

Promise will try to be 'gentle'

(winky huggy snarky)

Not the "only", but ...

reason to continue fishing for answers

Yea, the boat cruise is still on
Happy to keep a line out
You catchin' any ?

trying to find pieces to a puzzle which don't exist

because you weren't provided the answers and the pieces in the reveal episode

You're Right ... a puzzle does not exist
I had no questions going into "reveal"
So no need to find any "answers"

That YOU Bro ... you describing yourself

Somewhere (in my Original Review?) ... this Poemic

Life ... or Mentalist and lotta other stuff

Not a Puzzle to be Solved

But a Mystery to be Lived

Hence, the "debacle"!

(and hope it was as good for you as it was for me ;-)

.

(ps edit, and if this keeps up for 4 hours, consult etc ... wink)

And now ... about rest of your Post, all the 'RJ Stuff' ... again
(yea, may charge you time/half for not 'paying attention')

Expand Your Metaphors, Yin Your Yang or Yang/Yin or Sumthin'

You've got good 'nouns', always have, is your 'process' ... 'verb'

(least what i 'see' in my 'smiley way' ... tao)

.

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[–] Huebuebue 9 years ago

And still, you've yet to answer the question that I've presented to you some ten times in regard to everything you said above: if you had no questions and needed no answers, why are you pushing the idea of "Red John is many" as an actual plot point throughout the series, as if it had been the plan from the beginning?

Were you exploring the idea on a purely metaphorical level, such narrational apologetics wouldn't be necessary. As far as I can understand, metaphors don't need to rely on narrational consistency in order to work. Sorry, but it's pretty obvious you're looking for an answer - in other words, fabricating one for yourself - to make it look like Heller had been conducting some grand plan of his all along, which you alone, out of the several tens of millions of people around the world watching TM, have been able to figure out. Grandiose much?

Also...

You're Right ... a puzzle does not exist
I had no questions going into "reveal"
So no need to find any "answers"

That YOU Bro ... you describing yourself

Somewhere (in my Original Review?) ... this Poemic

Life ... or Mentalist and lotta other stuff

Not a Puzzle to be Solved

But a Mystery to be Lived

Getting stuck on semantics? That's not very verb of you, bc.

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[–] edisonnosidE 9 years ago

I didn't mean clues, myer. Cho's choice of books for instance reveals things about his character, etc.

Most, if not all the supposed 'clues' were misdirection, if anything.

All is one, and one is all.
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.


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[–] edisonnosidE 9 years ago

bc, you're a worse poet than I.

BUT, you have promise....

All is one, and one is all.
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.


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[–] bcthedj 9 years ago

'
Ed ... ha ha ha

That not moi, look up Chapin and Corey

But watch out for Mayor of Candor, he Lies

And yes, forgot about Willie the Shake

But Heller/Team did not ... Hamlet and Macbeth

And f'king PJ nailed 'em both to the wall ... BANG

Now ... Meyer

And there's some good examples ...

You ever read any of Shakespeare's Plays ?

In the original full script old school Brit English ?

Or maybe been in audience or participate in one ?

Do you know what Iambic Pentameter is all about ?

Can you define Metaphor, Allusion, Literary Device ?

Do you then know how to apply them to a Storyline ?

You been using a famous one lately, yea ?

But do you know what it really means ?

How to translate the 'process' to RJ ?

Are YOU 'Experienced' ?

Or you just 'talking' ?

(hippity hoppity ;-)

.

And PS Edit ... Hue

Know 'who here' you are, ahem ... referring to with Simon

(arrr ... wink wink)

Also don't forget ... or maybe now 'know' ?

He was 'raised/taught' by an Official English Teacher Mom

And ... In The Land of Oz

(smile)

.

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[–] Huebuebue 9 years ago

If you read my post a little more closely, you'll see that I was talking about Heller, not Baker. And the certain someone was you, not rf.

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[–] bcthedj 9 years ago

'
Sorry ... when read:

... it might've as well been Baker's doing more than anyone else's

Or ...

He's the one who's actually been on the scene almost all the time

As well as ...

Baker's vast artistic liberties in Jane's characterization are kinda telling in that regard

Seemed to me ... you referring to Simon more than Bruno

But could have been some kind of Suomi Conjugational ?

(yea, me not comprende them beetchys very well ;-)

.

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[–] Huebuebue 9 years ago

I highly doubt Heller has supervised every single frame of every episode the show.

Heller might've created the original premise, but The Mentalist as we've known and experienced can hardly be called "his creation"

Yea, I could've made the person in reference in the first sentence a bit clearer since there were two subjects in the last one, but if you actually read the whole paragraph, it's easy to see that I'm talking about Heller. But if this is another one of your "one has to express themselves in a perfectly academically and grammatically correct manner in order to address bcthedj" shenanigans, I give up.

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[–] Darryl The Hitman 9 years ago

Yes you have to be airtight and word-perfect in your questions before bc will dodge them. ;)

Feel free to visit the board I own at http://z6.invisionfree.com/boardwitheverything :)

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[–] Huebuebue 9 years ago

Spot on...

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[–] bcthedj 9 years ago

'
Darryl and Meyer and Hue

... Oh My

(and any other folks too)

.

We can, hopefully will

Keep yappin' arm rasslin'

Over all this RJ Stuff . 

.

But Bottom Line ... End of Ride

Why on Ride in First Place ?

And what's your 'bâcler' ?

We all have our own inner RJ's and must look in those mirrors, open our PJ Doors to find some reveal ... and hope you know, believe/trust me ... been through a few of those 'doors', and looking in that 'mirror' as type this now. Yea, may not be easy chit, or always a 'fun place' to go ... but always know we all know this about each of us (that 'down deep knowing') ... we each must go 'there' in our 'own way' ... we each have our own special 'mirrors/doors' ... each of us our own 'bacles/debacles/de-debacles' ... unique/universal

(tao)

Oh, and while we're at 'It' ?

Have a Village Group Thing . 

... eh ?

(Never Alone ... Aye ;-)

.

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[–] edisonnosidE 9 years ago

Just remember:

Mirrors are the ultimate liars: They show you the opposite of what you are.

Every try to do complex actions in a mirror? It's hard.

Doors, however, bring changes.

All is one, and one is all.
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.


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[–] bcthedj 9 years ago

'
Yea Ed ... fine da kine metaphorics yin/yang of 'mirror-izing'

And talk about 'complex actions' ... yep, gotcha on that too

But remember, "Objects may be closer than they appear"

.

And ... Doors and Changes

Hell Yea ... Morrison did do that

(shakka ;-)

.

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[–] edisonnosidE 9 years ago

And ... Doors and Changes

Hell Yea ... Morrison did do that

Thank you, perpetual reminder of my past. They sure fugiting did!
No end to renewal, no end to enlightenment.

All is one, and one is all.
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.


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[–] bcthedj 9 years ago

'
Whoa, on that subject of 'enlightenment'

Or Visionary Apocalypses of Synchronicity

Just had one connecting Doors

And your TV Snark in a Jisbon Thread

Could say it is ... 'Bridge to Somewhere'

(and ty 'da kine pontificate' ... genuflect)

L.A. Woman

(but no, not the 'mahu kind' ... wink)

Maybe Mr Mojo Risin' poeticized about

Today's Global TV Role Model of Posers

And sorry Guys, also includes 'All of Us'

Yes ... it is very 'non-gender specific' ;-)

.

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[–] bcthedj 9 years ago

'

Very Interesting BBC'er

(and not this 'i am' ... those other folks 🇬🇧 )

How the Devil Got His Horns . 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw6Gx4qJsYI

Can watch there, about 1 hour

And/or go here to download/keep .mkv version (and 'legal', ty bbc  )
http://docuwiki.net/index.php?title=How_the_Devil_Got_His_Horns:_A_Diabolical_Tale

Also embedded at DTH's . 🇨🇦
http://z6.invisionfree.com/BoardWithEverything/index.php?showtopic=4842&view=findpost&p=22053687

Now, that has a 'Euro/Western/Mid-East Focus' on this stuff .  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beelzebub
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil_(Islam)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil_in_Christianity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallen_angel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinn
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mephistopheles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan
... etc etc etc

But as we look at ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_and_evil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_between_good_and_evil

In the Orient/East and find stuff like . 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism

Yea, all that yin/yang'ing can get Kung Fu'sing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_as_the_Devil

Can even lead to, in a sense ...  . IS . 

(well, in a 'sense', wink)

On and on ...

And 'all this/that' has more 'sniff trails' for another day . 

Like this 'region' where Ed da kine Sun Rises Up
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynesia

With stuff like ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pele_(deity)

Or even Blondie Boy Simon's Home Zone
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasmania

With its interesting synchronicity connects
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasmanian_devil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasmanian_tiger
(meow meow mate)

But as say, another day

However, in that Horny Video ... Pay Attention

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_play

THAT is a Big Deal

Presto connects to stuff like PJ/McA's Pigeony Church Scene

And other stuff like ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jyw2odg92B4

(and like bret say, ain't done yet ... smile)

.

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[–] edisonnosidE 9 years ago

Devil is imagination.

Evil is real.

Ain't done yet.. but soon.

All is one, and one is all.
Impossible is illogical.
Lack of evidence is not proof.


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[–] bcthedj 9 years ago

'
Ahhh, here's a Reality that sure got some Imaginations going

Few odd years ago in Jeopardy Championship Tournament
Was Question/Answer involving 'Devil/Satan Something'
One Player said 'Devil' but Alex say 'No', was 'Satan'
And/or verse/visa ... but imagine you get 'idea'

Anyhoo ... Jeopardy Internet went Nutz 'arguing' over the correct 'answer/question', with Theologians and Academics and Historians joining in the fray and whoa nelly ... can't remember the 'exact details', but seems after a couple weeks of 'processing' the Jeopardy Judges allowed the Player to return ... and not fersure, but may have been the only time 'that' has happened, Jeopardy Reversal ... and since then don't think they've done any more Devil/Satan Stuff (or religion/politics/etc etc)

.

AND ... "soon" ?

C'mon, you barely got started

(you young da kine punk kid you ;-)

.

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[–] bcthedj 9 years ago

'
Some Great Thread (sub-thread) Topics/Yip-Yaps floating around now
Sorry don't have time/focus to yip-yap in each of them at this moment

However ... One Major Thing that keeps popping up

Red John and McAllister and Blake Association and 'all that'

Please, asked before, asking again ... Expand Your Metaphorical Reads

Think Outside any 'Literal Box' ... Think Archetypes & Mythic Symbols

Do Not Limit Red John to McA ... Red John is Bigger/More than Him

Stuff like this can help in that Process ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_John:_A_Book_About_Men
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythopoetic_men%27s_movement

(happy trails in your wabbit chase sniffings ;-)

.

And PS reminder from Beginning of Thread

Do Not Mis-Translate/Mis-Interpret 'This Thing'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse

(thank me later, yw ... smile)

.

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[–] bcthedj 9 years ago

'
Wanna Meet A Real Red John ?

Now ... This Moment Start ... PBS TV

http://www.pbs.org/program/bomb/

(70th b-day comin' soon, aye)

.

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[–] bcthedj 8 years ago

'
Just a reply/bump to keep this Thread alive/going

So it not fall off the end of List (capeesh ? ... ty)

... laters . 

(for now ... wink ;-)

.

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[–] bcthedj 8 years ago

'
No Mo' Liverpool Red Thread ...

So YOU make room . 

(aye)

...

Rise Up Ye Red Liver Birds in 74th Minute

Game Be Tied ... But It Ain't Over

... Till It Over ...

... Play On Lads ...

(and lassies ;-)

.

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[–] bcthedj 8 years ago

'
Well ... just so everyone not think BC is 'totally nutz'

Check the 'records/logs' ... Liverpool FC was playing a Game other day, was on USA TV, me tuned in/discovered it at about the 60th Minute, JUST as 'other team' scored a Goal to tie game (yea, synchronicity timing, again, grrrrr) ... and save you all the 'play by play post game analysis' (yw) but Game ended in 'tie', and a good time was had by all (ty tyvm) ... and sometime/place will 'do' links/update to the Liverpool Scotland Yard Inspector Slocombe Mentalist Episode (check uTube, easy 'find') but (if not know) Liverpool has Big Connect to Global Village, and therefore (by extension) so does Mentalist, which is 'what' me always yappin' about (in poor poeticals, too often, sorry) ... BUT, along with that LFC Game, and FIFA and Global Futball (etc etc) ... this weekend we also got a Red John/Blake Association 'Apocalypse/Reveal' involving FIFA and a LOT of 'other connected stuff'

Here's one link/news report/example ...

The Latest: FIFA Opens Probe into Ethics Judge Damiani

Apr 4, 12:19 PM (ET)

BERLIN (AP) — The Latest on the publication by a coalition of media outlets of an investigation into offshore financial dealings by the rich and famous (all times local):

6:20 p.m.
A FIFA judge who helped ban Sepp Blatter for financial misconduct is now under investigation by his ethics committee colleagues after being named in an international probe of offshore accounts.

... etc etc etc ... follow this link for 'more'

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20160404/offshore_accounts-investigation-the_latest-3f540d1e35.html

BUT ... is 'ongoing, in process' ... SO Stay Tuned and Keep Eyes/Ears Open for LOTS 'more'

AND ... suspect will be 'up there' with this ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikiLeaks

...

On and on ... but use your 'eyes/ears' to 'see/hear'

This/That and Red John and Blake Association (etc etc etc)

Same 'thing' as Mafia/Don Vito/Evil/Satan/Good/Bad/etc

And THAT is all moi will 'reveal' for the moment

No want any 'knock on my door' too soon

(nose tap, winky smile)

...

But, just to be a 'Nice Guy'

Here's link to DTH's Place/Igloo

Where find links to more links (ad infinitum)

http://z6.invisionfree.com/BoardWithEverything/index.php?showtopic=4832&view=findpost&p=22069309

... laters

(smile)

.

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[–] bcthedj 8 years ago

'
Hey Norma Jean ... Happy 90th

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_Monroe

And your Mentalistic Connection

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKG9wyvqZfo

(sorry, no findy any Anglish, please just 'Visualize' ;-)

And since in Neighborhood, few days ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy

Would have been 99 ... so let's join in, sing along

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqolSvoWNck

Now ... let's all gather at the Plaza

Where we meet a Real Red John . 

Easily Revealed ... is back, and to the left

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MLc0udf_74

But Good Luck with Apocalypse of THE Red John . 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ema7lfEAMk

(mongoose tyger tyger ... wink wink ... no smile)

.

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[–] grimlockmm 8 years ago

the end of red john was messy,
with writers making errors along the way,

but the chase for red john was exciting.
sure the story would have been so much better if all the clues fitted, but the overall story was good despite this.

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[–] bcthedj 8 years ago

'
grimlockmm ...

Thanks for your Post/Reply ... I've been busy with 'other stuff', not checked in here for a while (etc) and know if a Thread does not get a 'Reply' after a 'period of time' then it can fall off the edge/go poof/etc ... so ty again for keeping this 'alive'

(tyvm ;-)

Now, of what you say in your post ...

And hope you "get it" with some of my clock twist/button pushes (so to speak)

Let's focus on some 'Main Key Words' you use, and you're not alone, others say 'same'

Messy ... errors ... clues fit ... etc

Yes/No/Maybe ... depends how those are defined, how they can be interpreted, and how we are able (or not able) to do like Dorothy in Wiz of Oz and "look behind the curtain" ... yea, as Patrick Jane always says, "Pay Attention", and not just to the 'stuff' On Stage, or the 'Viewing Screen' of TV/Film/etc

Once able to wiggle/fit those "clues" into something not necessarily obvious, then a Whole New Apocalypse (or Revelation) is possible ... and imho (and 'experience') that Visualization is VERY Clear, and I Am looking forward to the 'right time' for me to share my 'Mentalistic Insights', and then (as Martin said) "we will all see it together" ... like some rabbit pulled out of a hat

(voila)

.

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[–] myerhead 8 years ago

No, it was messy. It had errors. The clues didn't fit.

Unanimous opinions (except for yours) across the board, including regular watchers of the program, members of this message board, TV critics, TV 'beat' writers, and on and on. Most importantly, the show's lost sense of direction and non-fitting clues were also acknowledged by the show's creator, writers, and actors.

It will be interesting to read an explanation which flies in the face of what people saw with their own eyes and which also goes against what Bruno Heller himself recognized and conceded.

Question: If someone (you) had some other logical explanation, why would that person (you) wait 3 years to reveal it?

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[–] bcthedj 8 years ago

'
" ... what Bruno Heller himself recognized and conceded."

Link/Reference/etc for that ?

.

Ahhh ... PS Follow Up Question

"Logically Explain" this "RJ Metaphoric Meme" ?

http://abc13.com/news/clowns-in-america-timeline-of-scares-and-sightings/1533653/

http://people.com/crime/creepy-clown-sightings-2016-whats-happening-explainer/

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_SUSPICIOUS_CLOWN_SIGHTINGS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/killer-clowns-inside-the-terrifying-hoax-sweeping-america-w442649

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/no-clowning-around-police-clown-threats-hoaxes/

... etc etc etc

And some Apocalyptic Revelatory Trees to Shake ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clown

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Grimaldi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coulrophobia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley

(or 'bridges' to cross, but at your own 'risk' ;-)

.

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[–] myerhead 8 years ago

I don't really feel like doing the work for you, especially if you're not going to pop in again for another 3 weeks or so. That's not advantageous for carrying on a conversation.

I have an idea for your suggestion to me to provide links for Bruno's recognition and concessions that the reveal and the "Red John wrap up", so to speak, were sub-par. Why don't YOU provide a link indicating Bruno thought the reveal was great and was everything he thought it would/could be when the show began.

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