MovieChat Forums > Le silence de Lorna (2008) Discussion > abrupt transitions? (major spoilers)

abrupt transitions? (major spoilers)


I'm a huge fan of the Dardennes brothers, so familiar with their way of unveiling character and plot points in a very deliberate manner. I just saw a screening of this at the Toronto International Film Festival and very confused at 2 places within the film. At one point I thought that part of the movie was missing but the brothers were in attendance so it doesn't seem that's the case. I hoped someone would bring this up during the Q&A, but no one did, and I was too chicken to bring this up,

So, here are the 2 places that would love other people's insights (major spoilers start now):

1) About midway through, right after Lorna and Claudy have sex, the next day while they are at a store to get a new lock and key, Claudy buys a bicycle. He rides off just after making plans to see Lorna at work for lunch. Then, here's where I get confused. Right after this, the film cuts all of a sudden to Lorna at a morgue to identify Claudy's body. It just seems so abrupt to jump ahead like that, especially given the pacing throughout up until this point. I realize this could be the Dardennes very intention and I could have missed the setup for this. But it seemed earlier that Fabio had worked things out with the Russian and he was willing to wait a little, so didn't see why Claudy would need to be killed, unless there was a scene (or more) that was missing. I especially wondered about this because there's the scene a bit later when she's packing up her stuff at the apartment and the inspector (Dardennes regular Olivier Gourmet in a cameo) shows up saying they had *more* questions for her about Claudy's death. There was no scene with Lorna being questioned by the police before this.

2) After getting over this, the rest of the movie proceeds fine until near the end. My memory is a bit foggy on the exact details at this point. There's the scene with her leaving the hospital with Fabio after learning she's in fact not pregnant. But at some point it cuts all of a sudden to her arguing with Claudy that she's going back to Albania. And the movie proceeds to the end with them splitting up the money and then she escaping from the car. It seems that a scene or two was missing before this as Claudy kind of appeared suddenly, and there's no scene explaining what exactly happened with the Russian marriage deal.

I would really appreciate it if someone who's seen this outside of TIFF could confirm that this is what you experienced these "holes" in the narrative. I'm actually hoping that I just blacked out from too many TIFF screenings and simply missed some things. It's more troubling to me that what I recall is exactly as the film was intended.

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Hello, I just watched the film and I think I'm able to help you out! :)

1)Yes the transition is very abrupt and mystifying at first. But at a certain point (I think it's right before the police arrive) Fabio tells Lorna he lied about the Russian agreeing to the delay. Fabio lied because he was afraid Lorna would warn Claudy if he told her right away the Russian wouldn't wait. It's just one line so you might have missed it. There was indeed no scene with the police before this.

2) I think you're a bit confused on this point. After the scene in the hospital where we learn she's not pregnant, we see Lorna, Fabio and Sokol in the apartment. Fabio doesn't trust Lorna anymore after the incident with the Russian and the imaginary pregnancy and says he's sending her back to Albania [but this is probably just an excuse - it seems likely Spirou (Morgan Marinne from Le fils) was ordered to take care of her]. So it is implied that the deal with the Russian is off. What role Sokol played in the whole circuit of marriages of convenience (if any), isn't entirely clear. He loses some money from the loan Lorna had made, but perhaps this was just related to the snack bar, so they split up the money.

Well I hope this helped, I quite enjoyed the film, but so far it's my least favourite film by the Dardenne brothers.

Vale

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hi d1lut3d, i've a query/theory on the "imaginary pregnancy" that you described. i remember clearly that lorna and the doctor talked about her being pregnant, and having to wait 8 days before she can have the abortion, and lorna hugged him tightly afterwards. then there's a scene after that with lorna, fabio and another doctor, this time telling her she's NOT pregnant. is it possible that fabio paid off this doctor to say she's not pregnant, so lorna would continue with the russian marriage?
i'm going to have to watch this movie again!!!
the final scene in the woods, it's very reminiscence of a scene in rosetta, where both the characters talk to themselves to keep themselves going.

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Hello Russell,

been quite a while now since I've seen the film so you'll have to excuse me if I'm a bit rusty on the details. ^^ Yes the whole pregnancy arc was confusing to say the least. You make a valid point about the second doctor being paid off. But from what I can remember the first appointment she had was just to discuss an abortion, so this doctor would probably not have checked whether she was really pregnant or not (I guess you're usually sure about them when you decide on an abortion). Also if she had been really pregnant I think Fabio would sooner have forced an abortion on her than let it slip by and continue with the Russian marriage (seeing as it was the Russian who objected to Lorna being pregnant from another man). If it would have come out that she was still pregnant afterwards he would surely have run into trouble with the Russian.
But seeing as false pregnancy is a real, if rare, medical condition and the situation Lorna is in (the death of Claudy vis-à-vis her relationship with Sokol, the stress with the arranged marriage), it might really have been what it is portrayed to be.

Vale

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I think Lorna told the doctor to lie about the pregancy in front of Fabio, because she wanted to keep the baby. So she is pregnant indeed. When she's running around in the forest in the end she keeps talking to the baby and she tries to open a bank account for the baby so I think the baby exists.

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Yes, that's what i assumed. That's the only thing that makes sense. I get the impression though that many people believed that the doctor/nurse, who told Lorna that she was not pregnant, was telling the truth. One reviewer talked about how in the ending Lorna was lost in her own delusions, believing that she was pregnant. It would be a very different movie if that was true.

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Would Lorna have had the opportunity to ask the doctor confidentially to lie? And if she did, why would the film not only omit that scene but offer no retrospective confirmation that it took place? Fabio was with her even in the examination room! If I recall, the transaction at the bank precedes the disclosure that she is not pregnant. On the other hand, the forest scene comes at the end and is open to two interpretations: (1) Lorna knows something the viewer doesn't; or (2) she has strong psychological motives (as opposed to reasons) to believe she is pregnant.

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During the first doctor´s appointment she doesn´t get the ultrasound. So, there is no confirmation of pregnancy...

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I know you posted this a while ago, but I just wanted to clear something up.

Lorna made it clear that she was trying to arrange it so she could 'keep the baby' (it's questionable as to whether there really was a baby). She even tried to broach the subject with the Russian directly while they were 'dancing' together in the club.

As for Fabio, it makes no sense for him to want her not to know about a pregnancy, because the Russian didn't want someone pregnant, and Fabio would probably be at risk if the Russian found out she was pregnant after the marriage (not that it would have made a difference to his getting the EU Passport. In fact, it might have made the marriage seem more believable.) Lorna herself wanted to go through with the sham marriage (she wanted the money) AND she wanted to keep what she thought was the baby.


As for the first doctor; yes, it's true he told her she'd have to wait 8 days, but he said firs they'd 'do a scan' just to make sure she was pregnant. That's when she started to become hysterical. The doctor asked through the door several times if she was OK, and when she let him in (she'd gotten dressed again), she hugged him fiercely.

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The first skip in the film: indeed, we see Claudy riding away on his bike and the next take is Lorna sorting and folding his clothes. Lorna's acting was so frozen and emotionless that I really had a hard time understanding what had happened here. But then we see her at the morgue and she says "I'm his wife". At that point, it is clear that Claudy has died, just out of the blue. Fabio was going to kill Claudy anyway, he just didn't tell Lorna, out of fear that she would talk or otherwise do something.

I was rather bothered but such a hole in the story, especially given the rather detailed and slow pace the rest of the time.

About your second problem: the guy in question was Sokol, her Albanian boyfriend, not Claudy (who's dead, remember?) Here again, we have to guess that something went wrong. She's left with no money from the deal, because it was all cancelled because of her. Lorna had put Sokol's money on an account (remember: they meet in a parking lot and Sokol gives her money), they were sparing togetether to open a snack bar. Probably the bank kept a percentage of the cancelled credit.

It is indeed strange to have such voids in the storytelling, when you consider how long and slow the very last scene is (she picks up wood for a fire). When the film ended, I heard someone ask: "Did it just finish there?"

Strange indeed...

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i loved that first transition (and yes it confused me as well) but the bike scene is so magical, in a cliche way, and then *bang* reality.

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I don't think it was a hole, rather an artistic decision. It would be too much to show Claudy being so cruelly whacked at that point (though not for an American film, of course). It's not essentially a film about violent gangsters but about Lorna's spritual crisis and transformation through her connection with Claudy. The delusional pregnancy is her way of holding onto that connection. The depiction of a brutal murder would detract from the central theme.

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I am fine with not seeing Claudy's murder but puzzled why they didn't insert thirty seconds' worth of footage showing Lorna being notified by phone, or walking into the apartment and finding his body. The cut, from Claudy happy and full of life and riding away on his new bike, to Lorna's numbly sorting his clothes, was so abrupt I had to run the DVD back a minute or so to make sure I hadn't actually missed anything with momentary inattention.

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I agree with you, and the telephone call scenario was the first thing I thought of too. They wouldn't even have had to dialogue the call.

I hated the transition because it was SO abrupt, that I thought I'd spaced out for a second, or my DVD player was malfunctioning. (I once had a DVD that would not play the chapters in sequence for some reason.) Having to go back just to replay that transition really took me out of the movie.

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I saw it on TV and found it strange that there was no notification too
Also why was she buying clothes?

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Do you mean BEFORE Claudy died? I think she was buying clothes for Claudy. Afterward (after the abrupt transition) she was PACKING her clothes to leave that apartment.

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There's another one in the end. When she tries to escape from Spirou, she attempts to take her bag, Spirou doesn't let her. When she whacks Spirou with the stone, she leaves without her bag. Any logic???

Anyway, I have a feeling that most European films have a serious problem with dramaturgy and plot development - namely, they haven't any. Being "artistic" and "European" is obviously an excuse for holes in the story. And European moviemakers are still wondering why they aren't successful. Their usually bleak and depressing messages are just another nail in the coffin of European "cinéart".

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She has to smack him with the rock to escape, as if she just ran, he'd catch her. She forgets the bag in the excitement...no big deal.

I can't believe that so-called art movies are still "foreign" to modern audiences. Just as an example, Kubrick's 2001 is a popular American art film with "different" plotting and an ambiguous ending, and that came out in 1969. But, if you want to watch stuff like "Fast and Furious", I'm not sure why you would bother with a Belgian movie about Albanian immigrants.

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Ramayana give me a break. You've made one of most sweeping generalisations I've seen on these boards.

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I agree, that was a bit harsh

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I disagree with your take on 'European films' (that's an awfully broad category).

But I HATED that she didn't take the bag with her. Not only was it a 'loose end,' it didn't really match her previous character development. She was always so methodical in locking away her belongings or taking them with her, in order to protect them from Claudy, etc. Yes, some might argue that she was in extremis emotionally; but even then, her character seemed to take control.

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The 1st doctor did not in fact examine her or give her a pregnancy test -- she runs away before he can. So I (and the person I saw the film with) are convinced that the pregnancy is imaginary. I don't think that this is the medical condition of false pregnancy (she's not getting bigger), but just her slowly going crazy from guilt.

Not showing Claudy's murder keeps the emphasis on her and her mental state. It was also ironic that she trying to keep Claudy off drugs, as witnessed by the drug dealer, was taken by the cops as further proof of her innocence, adding to her guilt.

I figured there was symbolism of her ending up (more than a bit crazy) in a hut in the woods, like a fairy tale character.

I didn't mind the jumps (it's nice to have a film that makes you work at thinking about plot revelations) but I wasn't 100% convinced about her behavior by the end.

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I'm not sure why the filmmakers left so many open-ended questions. Still, I don't think it's a delusional pregnancy. I think the point of the movie is that Lorna finally has someone to care for and to share her life with. The turning point comes when she and Claudy lock themselves in (she throws the key out the window), metaphorically suggesting that they are both imprisoned in their lives, and then they have sex/connection. This moment brings about the pregnancy, and Lorna's journey towards liberation.

Regarding the abortion scene-- this is not supported in the film but this is what I think was intended: In order to get an abortion, Lorna would have had to wait 8 days, and Fabio wouldn't have wanted to wait that long if she visited a new doctor. So I think Lorna returned to the same doctor she visited before, and the doctor realized Lorna was being forced to get an abortion. He knew full well that she didn't want one, and assumed she was being forced to get one by her male 'friend,' aka Fabio. (Who knows, maybe the Monique Sobel nurse also came to visit and told the doctor she had been abused?). So the other nurse comes in and tells the men she's not pregnant and has to stay for three days for tests so that the hospital can protect her rights.

But Lorna has to tell them she's pregnant anyway because the Russian is going to have his doctor check her.

I don't know-- just a theory...

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The abrupt transition were an artistic choice. The story is told from Lorna's perspective and she didnt see Claudy die.

And i thought the whole point of the movie is that she isnt pregnant at all. She is wigging out- fantasizing about it in order to deal with her guilt. That's what the film was about. Guilt.

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I'm sure that this wasn't intentional but the scence at the end when Fabio's flunky is driving Lorna back to Albania (or to a transshipment point) reminded me of the scene in the Sopranos where Adriana got whacked. Up until the point, of course, where Lorna hit him over the head with a rock and ran off into the woods.

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I agree may be it was a way of dealing with her guilt

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