MovieChat Forums > Vals Im Bashir (2008) Discussion > Simultaneously great and a piece of sh*t

Simultaneously great and a piece of sh*t

posted 12 years ago by rz_sain
11 replies | jump to latest

It has bothered me greatly since I watched it for the first time under the recommendation of a tutor how great this film was- how brilliant the technique, how riveting the design and music- but also how the whole thing steams ahead like a spear of guilt and truth and reconciliation but only ends upon a lie.

To aid your recollection- dude goes around asking his buddies what happened that day, what exactly is it that we've forgotten? In that question lies his redemption, or so he believes- okay, cool. Finally, bit by bit, he uncovers the whole deal and figures out that what had happened was that he was stationed near the massacre site, and some renegade christian fundamentalist type militants and the fault, the unforgivable mistake of the protagonist was that he and the other soldiers did nothing to stop them. In the film, the christians start the killing one day, goes on through the night, the next morning the Israeli captain guy drives up in his jeep with a megaphone "Please, go back to your homes. no more killing", and that's that. Okay so the Israeli soldiers allowed for one night of killing and cannot forgive themselves for it. That's the message of the film.

But wait! The Sabra and Shatila massacre went on for three days. Not one. So the soldiers who stood by and did nothing, well they stood by and did nothing for three days. That's incredible, and horrible. My problem is that the film did not tell the whole truth, and truly expressing Israeli guilt in full. What happened instead was that the film offered a doctored, semi-truth essentially saying we did wrong, but it happened too fast, we didn't know what was going on and when we found out we fixed it. Well no! You didn't! You waited three days.

When the film first came out, I thought, wow the Israelis are admitting guilt, this is an incredible milestone. Then I found out the film was supported by the Israeli government and thought, oh no, it's just more propaganda. But then I actually watched it, and, well, it makes no sense. Why bother making a film about admittance when you're just going to lie?

Waltz is a great film, maybe even a great documentary, but it's a dishonest one.

[–] expiry223 12 years ago

I just watched the film, and then an interview with the director on the extra material. He clearly states here that the masacre went on for three days.

As far as I recall, they didn't mention in the film just how long the massacre went on. It seemed a bit like it stopped in one day yes, but I don't think that was intentional. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Nonetheless, I think the film still gave a very good impression of how terrible the massacre was, I guess the question remaining is if they should have done something to provide us with a better overview of how long it went on. But calling it propaganda is going too far as I see it.

[–] yaron_hoff 12 years ago

Christians massacres Muslems.
Palestinians massacres Christians.
Druze massacres all above etc etc.

That was the Lebanon civil war (1975-1990). just one massacre after another. The most vicious things one can imagine.

Yet the only massacre that went noticed was the sabra and shatila massacre.

Makes you wonder.

Yaron from Israel

[–] NapoleonBender 11 years ago

maybe because one was made possible by a foreign invading army? from one of the most self-righteous countries in existence? i love how israeli's cite supposed muslim brutality as a reason for them to oppress them, then use the excuse "they do it too!" as an excuse for their own brutality, thereby putting them on the same level and invalidating their own reason for their invasions.

[–] ContinentalOp 11 years ago

''Yet the only massacre that went noticed was the sabra and shatila massacre.

Makes you wonder.

Yaron from Israel''

Palestines lived in the land of Palestine for centuries, though they had suffered conquests and hardships. .

Zionist move to that land,cause acts of extreme terror... invent modern terrorism. They send bombs (strapped to mules) into Palestinian marketplaces to kill civilians, bomb the King David Hotel etc.

The Zionists create a segregationist, apartheid state built upon a strange race law and an ancient, nonsensical book.

The state of Israel continues to attack and provoke many of the Islamic nations and the Palestinian people. They commit many massacres against the Palestinians. Often the action of Israel lead to the death of many children, reaching in the thousands.

Palestinians take up arms to try to gain parts of Palestine that they lost and, more usually, to stop the expansion of Israel. Sometimes children get killed, usually only in the 0s and 10s.

The governments of the world get outraged and decry the Palestinian struggle. For year and years the only news about the conflict in the Middle-East was about Palestinian ''acts of terror'', despite the fact that Israel committed acts of terror almost everyday. The media still has a heavily pro-Israel bias.

Makes you wonder.

Your country gets away with murder, Yaron. Quite literally, in fact.

[–] cazba 11 years ago

I believe the problem isn't really with most of the Isreali people...but the truth is...the ones running that country....since its inception...not the voted guy each term...but the power/money structures behind Isreal....created that country by design and with an illegitimate approval from the British...why the hell were the British allowed to grant permission and provide military back up for the founding of an Jewish state that was made up of mostly non british Jews from around europe? I would understand if it was in a part of British owned land, but to give another Nations land away? How is that possible in the 1900's?

Some very rich Zionist Jews wanted their very own home and they wanted it in a place that they no longer had any moral right to. So they at the very least lobbied a powerful England to give them some of the weakling Palestine's land.
But, they were just a handful of rich banksters...a few mansions don't make a country does it? So what did they do? They started offering large ammounts of money and free land/home's to Jewish families throughout the world...hand picking them to their exact wants/tastes. A country bought and built by design.

Now, you have a whole generation of Israeli's who were born on that land...and they are having their own families...As the Jewish population grows, and the land they took becomes insufficient, they merely fuel up the tanks and take some more as needed. Eventually, you have a huge Jewish population that were all born there and were born after the lands were stolen and the Palestinians were all gone. So how do you tell those Jew's they don't belong there and tell American's they do belong in America?

Hundreds of years of us evolving is how. Europe didn't settle on Indian land in the 1900's....they didn't settle on a land that was already had a bursting population with cities and a real economy....when this kind of stuff happened hundreds and hundreds of years ago...it was under cruel monarchies that felt it was their birth right to eventually own the whole of the world....they were dead wrong to just take lands from people....but they were from a much more primitive time...when people didn't understand each other as much and technology hadn't bridged the gaps it has....

When Israel was created...and Palestine stolen...it was of a time that knew 100% how corrupt and immoral it was....and the masses of the countries that supported its founding were never brought into the truth about what they were doing...no one was told that some Jewish people asked us to steal some Palestinian land for them...what do you guys think? It was done behind closed doors because English and American citizens would have said...."wow, yeah, Jewish people have had it pretty hard, and after the Holocaust I totally get how they feel like they should have a country of their own....but, wow, we can't go take that land from these people...it would be wrong....and even if we could live with that...it would probably end up causing a centuries worth of wars with those Palestinian's and their friends....so, though we do want to help you out, we can't take someone else's land...sorry about that...but listen, we like you and think the world is big enough for all of us...so, look...we actually have a crap load of land...and I see here you don't really need that much acreage...what we want to offer is a plot of healthy, mineral rich land with ocean access and connection to a healthy trade route, and its gonna actually be like 10 times the acreage of your request in Palestine..as we want to see you grow in the future...but, its actually here on our Continent, we've got lots of Crown land that hasn't been touched in centuries that has been waiting for a Noble use like this...does that sound like something you could work with?" But they didn't ask us....and they said sure, here's some tanks, guns, jets and boats...when was your expected timeline for getting things going?

Israel must be moved to a land that is donated willingly by a first world nation...i'm sure us in Canada could give them a chunk bigger then Italy and not even have to move a single citizen...I support the idea of a Jewish state in the world...but not a Zionist state on some other people's land.

I'm sorry, but if you disagree...and are in Israel...understand, the power you had and the power you currently have may not always be the power you will have...and if you are there, in that spot...when weakness evolves or is exposed...you will regret it. The Entire Muslim World is completely surrounding you, and they will have a legitimate bone to pick. I don't want to see that happen, which is why I support relocation.

Laugh at me, say it will never happen...but I can promise you this...If Israel doesn't man up, grow up, and recognize the world is waking up to whats actually going on and what actually happened...they are gonna wish they took the chunk of Florida when it was offered....because you aren't really a nation anymore when you are particles floating in the air. All Israeli's should pray they and their fellow countrymen have the sense get the hell off the land before it's too late.

[–] Vzzzbux 11 years ago

That's a shame, a movie about suppressing ones guilt which actually manages to suppress even more guilt for the purpose of propaganda, apart from that it was very good, i think Israel is in the precarious position of relying on Western nations for its current status through support, arms etc but only because they choose to be hawkish and propaganda is obviously a big part of maintaining that, there would be an outcry if people in the west really knew what was going on their but this is largely suppressed because the ruling class in these nations benefit from Israel acting as an aircraft carrier/spy network in the region looking after their hegemonic ambitions.

[–] marcheurfr 11 years ago

Haha I laugh at your ignorance of history. Why did the Sabra and Shatila massacre even occur? Because the Muslims in Lebanon had treated the Christians terribly, and they shot Bashir. Sabra and Shatila was a response to 40 years of injustice upon the Christians and Israelis, the Lebanese Muslims behaved (still behave?) like animals too. I feel sorry for Ari Folman, he just wanted peace and was met by an enemy not forgiving and more brutal than he. Let's ask the question: is there a Muslim equivalent to this movie? One that characterises a protagonist's guilt over the countless massacres of Israelis that have occurred? Or even one that wants to end the conflict with Israel once and for all? No, there is nothing, the Islamic population has provided nothing but intolerance to the Jews and for that fact, any other denominations. They have lost all credibility, and, this movie just makes the Israelis look much more morally capable of overcoming this potential second 'Shoah'.

[–] bede89 11 years ago

Great job claiming the movie for the whole of Israel, it seems like you all worked really hard on it. And I'm sure every Israeli approves of it, they all feel remorse and empathy towards Arabs and Muslims. Like you, you don't seem to have any hate all!

Also, I want to point out that the Islamic population is much, much bigger then the Middle East, and most of them have absolutely nothing to do with that conflict. So why should they make a movie about it? And why do you blame them all for the lack of such movie? I hate people who generalize.

And my answer to your question would be give it some time, remember the Arabic/Muslim side is the losing party, it will take them longer to come around. And it's not like Israel wants to end the war either, they still have so much to gain from it!

[–] marcheurfr 11 years ago

"it seems like you all worked really hard on it"
Firstly I'm not Israeli or Jewish
"I hate people who generalize"
Well looks like you hate yourself then.
And yes, Islam is much bigger than the Middle East. So I put forward the following question:
If it is the Middle Eastern Muslim countries that are against Israel, why has every single leader of an Islamic country condemned Israel to gain popular appeal? In fact, why has no Islamic country outreached itself to create an alliance with Israel?
The answer: because
a) they would lose all support from their own people
b) they would lose all support from any Islamic country
c) they would lose all support from many Islamic people across the globe.
So yes, while most have nothing to do with the conflict, the problem here is not minor wars between Israel and surrounding Middle Eastern countries, the problem is Islam itself. Islam promotes radical violence, and while some Islamic people choose to not follow certain violent aspects of it, many uphold it.

And yes, I blame the entire Islamic population and community for thinking of their jihad over peace with Israel. They want revenge, not peace, and there has been very few Islamic people who have spoken out against the wrongs of their own religion.

Lastly yes I agree, we'll give it time to see a new generation of Arabs/Islamic people who will challenge their religion rigorously and seek peace, and when they do, they will make movies about their many wrongs. But no, Israel has literally nothing to gain from starting/continuing a war, it is a small country thinking of its own survival surrounded by no allies whatsoever.

[–] cazba 10 years ago

Do you know anything about central banks? do you know anything about your richest citizens in Israel?

[–] clemphotography 10 years ago

hmm i dunno it's a funny one. We know in retrospect that there were many IDF member who knew what was going on and deliberately turned a blind eye and even aided them with the flares. But there were also people who objected to it like the director.

I think the implication of the film was that it was the generals who KNEW what was going on but deliberately acted slow to make a point, hence why the guy comes running in and says stop at the end, implying those higher ups knew what was going on all along. So the message being the IDF soilders were mear cogs in the ISraeli war machine that wanted to make the "enemy" suffer.

I think with the three day thing the director is assuming the viewer knows the basic history anyway, since he provided quite a good synopsis of the war on the website before the films release.