As an Israeli I am very curious to know how you, the non Israeli viewer, think that this film portrays Israel and its people? How did it make you feel? Were you surprised by anything? did you relate?
Would love to get some intelligent and sincere answers, please try not to turn this thread into a war zone :-)
thanks
"Inflammable means flammable? What a country!"
I didn't have any ill feelings towards Israelis,I only hope that people see this excellent film & realise that Palestinians are not the only people who use terrorism to achieve their aims.
I am very interested in seeing this movie, but I haven't yet. I am fascinated with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and the Op's post confirm what I've always believed. My sympathies lies with the suffering Palestinians, that I will not hide. Yet I believe that those who are committed to a peaceful settlement cannot afford to make Israel and the Israeli's feel like a pariah state. Israel is a nation with a siege mentality and any uneven handed criticism of It or its policy just does more to move us farther away from a peaceful settlement.
Israelis should not be made to feel that anything critical of one aspect of its foreign and domestic policy is a criticism of Israel as a whole and the Jewish people at large. I don't feel that way. Israel as a nation as done much to help the world in his 60 years in official existence. Its right of return for all jews has shed light on Jewish settlements all around the world that no one knew about. Africa, Asia, et cetera. Israel has helped refugees of genocidal conflicts from all over Africa and much more. No one who criticizes Israel that is in a right thinking state of mind wants Israel to cease existing.
I do believe that Israel can be a better neighbor and that quite frankly its protected status in the community of nations has given it great impetuous to be the bigger man. I don't understand why Arabs and Israelis are so unwilling to even talk to one another for any extended period of time in an official capacity, but if peace is to be achieved Israel has to be the bigger nation, because it is in prime bargaining position. If Israel makes reasonable overtures that do not threaten its security and leads to a truly self-governing and contiguous Palestinian state then they begin to weaken the extremists of either side of the conflict.
I think that Israel would be more willing to make these moves if it and its citizens believe that the world is not against them. Based on past history I can understand their leery, world wary, cynicism on how nations and non Israeli view them. But I think that Israel is at a stage when it and its citizen should start to feel confident in themselves and in their future, as well as in the willingness of their neighbor's receptiveness to peaceful overtures. Non state actors maybe willing to attack Israel as in 2006 with Hezbollah but they cannot topple it. And no state in the region is willing to wage a military campaign against Israel because Israel is the premier military power in the region after Turkey.
I am hopeful that the next generation of leaders in the Arab world will realize sooner of latter that formal recognition of Israel will lead to a more stable region and will start to alleviate Israel's worries about its neighbors. As an American I say this with a note of irony; I like Israelis but I only dislike a few specific policies with regard to Palestinians in the state of Israel and the occupied lands. And when peace is finally achieve in that region, not if; It will be largely to the credit of Israel and its citizens for being the bigger people.
I'd just like to say that the existence of this film shows something very specific about Israel. Can you imagine a Palestinian making a film that places guilt on Hamas, or Hezbollah, or Fatah... the way this film places responsibility and blame on Israelis? Never! Any Palestinian who dared to make a similar film would probably be killed, and the film censored or destroyed... Meanwhile, Israel gives this film awards.
I think that this very fact says at least as much about Israel as anything else in the film.
And also the fact that guilt runs deep throughout this film - felt not only by the protagonist (the film-maker) but also by others. Do you REALLY think that anyone in Hamas feels guilty about suicide bombers who kill innocent Israeli civilians? I would like to think so - but somehow I doubt it...
This film, by its very existence, is a credit to Israel and the people who made it.
Bravo!
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made me ponder..!!
shareBravo!
shareActually, in fairness, a couple of them do - but usually since there is often the threat of death if they're too explicit about their criticisms, they tend to hide it or make it more indirect. Probably the best and clearest example of it though is the movie "paradise now" which was indeed Palestinian and shows the problems with suicide bombing in a similarly harrowing way to the horrors of war shown in this film. In fact, the films go well together - and they are the only two movies I've ever been to where the entire theater remained completely silent after they ended for nearly two minutes. Having said that, yes, it certainly is a credit to israeli society - and perhaps more broadly the Jewish people in general - that a film of this candor and scope is made despite tremendous difficulties. Without wishing to overplay this or essentialize it, I'd have to say that throughout history one of the most important aspects of Jewish culture throughout the world has been the tendency to speak the truth (or at least call it as they see it) even in circumstances where others might rather be silent. I think as long as they continue to maintain this tradition, they'll always have a future as a people - it's the only thing that can be hoped for to get them out of messy situations like what's been happening in Gaza, the west bank, and lebanon (then and now) whoever you blame for these conflicts. I'd be interested to know how the film was received in Israeli society.
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So true. We demonise people. Of course it's a very effective technique. If you can get people to hate someone they've never even met, and you can justify whatever you want. I mean first we demonise Palestinians, think of them as suicide bombers who feel nothing and are hell bent on destroying "our" culture. Then when the tide shifts we demonise Israel and portray it as a David and Goliath story. Alot of people watch this film and straight away start to try and decide who was right or wrong, but a film about life doesn't need to have a good guy and a bad guy, life simply isn't black and white.
Anyway to answer the original question;
The film doesn't give me any particular ideas about Israel or it's people. The way I see it, the film is an exploration of war and dealing with the guilt and chaos of it. I can just as easily see a very similar thing happening from the Palestinian perspective. The film is about humanity no about Israel or Palestine. I therefore still see Israel as a country like anywhere else and insist on viewing everything it does/doesn't do as a nation on a case by case basis, just as I do with any other country, group or individual.
We're all human, and we all belong to societies that give ethically-flawed people posititions of power. That's pretty much the entire problem. There's not, as such, a right or wrong side of the Israel issue, only good and bad deeds done by both groups. Israel's administration is overly heavyhanded, and will continue to be so now that they've elected a over-militaristic, far-right coalition. Lebanon is still very much a country where people are TRYING to get along together. And Palestine? They've got just as much right to exist as anyone else does, but they most certainly go about it the wrong way...but resorting to the type of bombings and attacks that they do also shows a certain level of desperation; they don't think they're given a chance to be heard and fair, unbiased treatment in diplomatic matters.
I've got close friends from all the countries involved, different backgrounds too, and I'm pretty sure they, as with all right-thinking people, wish this perpetual hatred and tit-for-tat mudslinging would end.
Unfortunately, I would have to strongly disagree with your comment at large. How many movies are made by people of Palestine that would show Israel as terrorists and be allowed to be shown to the world - i would have to guess none- coz they would never ever make it to the so called independent theaters. And how many would gain acclaim to reach the Oscars ( I can count tons of movies showing holocaust related events that not only made it to Oscars but had undeserving wins ). Must have heard a joke that make a movie regarding holocaust and you are bound to win an oscar- how biased can anyone get.
Regarding this movie, it is the only movie coming out of Israel that shows a bit of guilt -- note it does not show any blame towards the israelis- it shows that they were ignorant of what was going on or turned heads towards the massacre- so they were not as guilty as the Philagists.
So does not say anything about Israel.
You should probably check out more Israeli movies, plays, etc. if you think this is the only one that shows a bit of guilt. Ignorant and uninformed statement. There is a large contingent in Israel that condemns the Israeli army, Israeli foreign policy and Israeli operations in the territories. There are huge liberal and left-wing factions that constantly criticize Israel and address the Israeli-Arab conflict through different media.
Israel is not the groupthink driven, unremorseful state that many people think it is. I actually saw Paradise Now at the Tel Aviv Cinematechque. It was a big deal and many Israelis saw the movie.
Also, the Palestinians are a very educated people who have released many indie films about the conflict as well. Do some research, man.
So basically you have no clue what you're talking about.
First of all, putting the blame on Israel is fairly justified, because that actually happened. You dont see Germans making movies about WWII where they acuse others. So no need for applause for this 'honesty'.
Israel has been acting as a hostile state, with several international warcrimes against its neighbours. I'd like to see anyone who says jews are "returning" to their homeland (instead of stolen land from the Palestinians) to give up their house and land to the original owners.
Israel killed in 2009-2010 1476 people (of wich 360 under age 18), 16 Israelis were killed in this period containing only one person under age 18.
Israel killed from 2005 to 2008 1754 people! Of those people 309 where children.In the same period Israel caused 6297 injuries, 864 where children!
Pardon me if I put it this way, but you ask me about the perception of Israelis - I-ll tell you to go s*** a d***.
How many Palestinians have the access or funds to make a film PERIOD? Not many. Your comment says the film is a credit to ISrael but by saying something on the lines of "palestinians could never make a film like this" suggests it's a discredit to Palestine.
And Hamas are not the entire palestinian population!!!!! they are the islamist government of the west bank. Im pretty sure 90% of the IDF don't feel much guilt when bombing the crap out of children just the same as 90% of Hamas don't. Their soilders who have been dehumanised. Many Palestinian CIVILLIANS hav expressed there remorse for death on both side of the conflict. THought there is no denying this is an incredably one sided conflict.
I certainly see where you're coming from but I must mention that Israel has indeed been "the bigger man" so to speak, at least a few times. A good example would be the withdrawal from Gaza, which was extremely controversial in Israel and entailed the forced eviction of Israeli citizens from settlements in Gaza. If this isn't a serious gesture of the desire to make significant compromises for peace, I'm not sure what would be. Unfortunately, though, this eventually resulted in Hamas taking over Gaza and rocketing Israeli towns, which culminated in Israel having few options but to eventually re-invade Gaza. Being Israeli myself I can say that from my personal experience the majority of Israeli citizens are willing to make concessions if they truly bring us closer to peace. The problem is that, as above, the opposite is sometimes true.
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One thing this film caused me to understand--once again--is how much more disparity of opinion about Israel's policies toward its neighbors there is in Israel than there is here in New York. And good for Israel. I thought it was a terrific movie.
shareAs a kid who grew up rolling his eyes all through religious school, (all while knowing the scripture damn well and winning multiple awards for his theological prowess), and as a guy who gets a lot of flack for not thinking Israel is the devil (college is ultra-liberal on this issue), I think that I can answer your question quite well.
The film is brutal, moving, incredible, and not anti-israel, anti-palestine, pro-jew or pro-muslim. It's an unflattering portrait of the pain on all sides that makes it abundantly clear that the issue isn't jew v. arab. It's fundamentalism on all sides (this focuses primarily on Israel's military-state fundamentalism) that is the real enemy.
,Said the Shotgun to the Head--
Saul Williams
www.myspace.com/ohhorrorofhorrors
> The film is brutal, moving, incredible, and not anti-israel, anti-palestine, pro-jew or pro-muslim. It's an unflattering portrait of the pain on all sides that makes it abundantly clear that the issue isn't jew v. arab. It's fundamentalism on all sides (this focuses primarily on Israel's military-state fundamentalism) that is the real enemy.
STV, with all due respect, I think it's monumentally clear that Israel has bent over backwards time and time again to settle the issue peaceably with their opposition. Their opposition has in no way done anything but taken advantage of their efforts in this regard, while giving nothing in return.
Th only result of Israel's peace efforts has been to give their opponents time to move weaponry into newer hidey holes right next to more new future civilian victims so the liberal anti-Israel community can pillory Israel for daring to defend themselves.
Here are some graphed stats from the Intelligence & Terrorism Information Center (http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/ip c_e007.pdf):
Rocket fire into Israel, by year, since 2000
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_wLFw4lOGQzk/SV7MVLuw7KI/AAAAAAAAA_c/iPe-BfHM xak/s1600-h/Rocket_fire_since_2000.JPG
Mortar fire into Israel, by year, since 2000
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_wLFw4lOGQzk/SV7MVsy4iHI/AAAAAAAAA_k/s5D3wE2V i28/s400/Motar_shelling_since_2000.JPG
I agree. But the strong Orthodox Jewish base in Israel is a major problem too.
,Said the Shotgun to the Head--
Saul Williams
www.myspace.com/ohhorrorofhorrors
Why are they a problem? What have they done to you? Is there anything wrong with being religious?
shareWell, they push the government further towards the right because they are a sizable voting block. And, frankly, an Orthodox view of Israeli defense often conflates Palestinians with the Canaanites.
,Said the Shotgun to the Head--
Saul Williams
www.myspace.com/ohhorrorofhorrors
No, the Palestinians are the ones who think that they are Canaanites. The right wing view is that they came here at the beginning of the 20th century as cheap work force for the British.
shareNo, I meant metaphorically...I'm Jewish (non-observant, but well versed). So, sorry if that first post came off as Jew-bashing. I just don't think that it's fair to blame only one side. Israeli government does crappy things, Hamas does incredibly crappy things,but both feed off each other.
Mitzvah gararet Mitzvah, Avehrah gararet Avehrah...you know?
,Said the Shotgun to the Head--
Saul Williams
www.myspace.com/ohhorrorofhorrors
I'm sorry, but no government is further to the right than the Islamic states that impose religious oppression (see...all of them). On the other hand, even when lead by the right wing, Israel is a westernized state that supports women's and Gay rights, as well as religious freedom.
share[deleted]
I know it's an old post but how about you show how many rockets were fired by the Israeli military so maybe we can compare. You are a perfect example of the Israeli government's way of thinking ie denying all blame what's so ever. I realize that Israel is now an established nation and it would be wrong to tell them to go elsewhere but at least don't act like you haven't stolen the country from the Palestinians. For them they're defending their homes as well. AND it is so obvious that you know nothing about Palestinians, I have a lot of Palestinian friends and they all say the same thing: most people there only want to go about their lives normally they don't even feel hate for the Israeli people (most of them anyway), they just don't want to live in fear of losing their homes or their lives anymore. There are still new Israeli settlements being built and homes bulldozed till this day,the Israeli invasion is still underway so don't be so shocked when there's retaliation and don't play innocent anymore cause you just sound retarded.
Now the film was great and wasn't biased and I still don't dislike Israelis after watching it, I've learned a long time ago to not make judgments about any group of people cause they all have morons like you, sorry it just has to be said.
> The film is brutal, moving, incredible, and not anti-israel, anti-palestine, pro-jew or pro-muslim. It's an unflattering portrait of the pain on all sides that makes it abundantly clear that the issue isn't jew v. arab. It's fundamentalism on all sides (this focuses primarily on Israel's military-state fundamentalism) that is the real enemy.
STV, with all due respect, I think it's monumentally clear that Israel has bent over backwards time and time again to settle the issue peaceably with their opposition. Their opposition has in no way done anything but taken advantage of their efforts in this regard, while giving nothing in return.
Th only result of Israel's peace efforts has been to give their opponents time to move weaponry into newer hidey holes right next to more new future civilian victims so the liberal anti-Israel community can pillory Israel for daring to defend themselves.
Here are some graphed stats from the Intelligence & Terrorism Information Center (http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/ip c_e007.pdf):
Rocket fire into Israel, by year, since 2000
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_wLFw4lOGQzk/SV7MVLuw7KI/AAAAAAAAA_c/iPe-BfHM xak/s1600-h/Rocket_fire_since_2000.JPG
Mortar fire into Israel, by year, since 2000
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_wLFw4lOGQzk/SV7MVsy4iHI/AAAAAAAAA_k/s5D3wE2V i28/s400/Motar_shelling_since_2000.JPG
As The Corner's Cliff May quips, the response of many people to the above facts is the rather absurd "Can't they just use umbrellas or something?"
I didn't feel any hatred towards the Israeli's....only complete sympathy for the Palestinians.
shareI just felt the tragedy of it all and the wasted lives, the violence.
I didn't feel it was Anti-Israeli, I felt it was critical about the Israeli authorities (Sharon) that's all.
I wonder whether there is anything like this made by Palestinians? I mean, would they be allowed to make such a film, which questions their own government agenda and policies?
Just curious....
it portrays the people of israel in a positive way, none of the interviewees are in any way unlovable, from the clinical psychologist to the guy who ran away to amsterdam, to the psychologist, reporter, etc you see them as people who were forced to fight at a very young age, traumatised and trapped in a vicious cycle of violence.
it portrays arlel sharon negatively and the israeli army fairly negatively i would say in not stopping the massacre...
it definitely wasn't a one sided perspective by any stretch of the imagination.
I loved the portrayal of Ari Folman and his buddies - and was so impressed with the calibre of people that had been in this war - and what they were doing with their lives since the war. I was actually disappointed to see the realistic images at the end of the movie - and no, I was not angry at the Israelis for apparently turning a blind eye. The Israelis did not do the killing - standing in between the conflict of brothers is dangerous and not effective - you're only going to get hurt yourself.
The music was phenomenal in this film - especially the original score by Max Richter.
I found the characters very likeable, pretty reflected if it wasn't for the memory loss, and with strong bonds: It hasn't happened to me in a long time that a friend called me late at night because he or she was haunted by a dream. Neither do I know the home adress of my therapist. And I loved the sincerity of the war description, the fear, the blind shooting out of fear. It is one of the greatest anti-war-movies I've ever seen. By the way, I'm German...
shareWell, I have some Israeli friends, and because of who they are, I already have a very positive opinion of Israelis. (I'm an agnostic non-Jew New York City resident.) I've learned a lot. I think that American Jews are more myopic about toeing the "Israeli Line" when it's always been more complex in your own country. Like America, you have the extremes of liberals and conservatives, and the vast majority in between. If anything, I hate when any country or group is painted with a broad brush. Here in America, some Jews are ashamed when an infamous criminal (like Bernie Madoff) turns out to Jewish. Shouldn't they turn their ire to people who would associate them with the crimes of that individual?
This movie portrays Israelis in a very identifiable, human light. You get a hindsight to the futility of war since it's told from the average soldiers' points of view. If anything, it provides a lens to the more current Middle Eastern conflicts that are negotiated with military force. There are no winners. From an American perspective, it seems never-ending with no hope for resolution. (Yeah--I know we have the Iraq War to consider before we throw stones.) Both parties always have valid gripes. I am about the same age as the soldiers in the movie--and as a student attending my first year of art school--I knew little of the Sabra and Shatila massacre and it opened my eyes immensely.
Ultimately, I think the people involved made a fantastic, deeply affecting movie. I don't think they did it with consideration of "how Israel and Israelis" are portrayed. If anything, they were relatable in situations that we couldn't fathom until now.