MovieChat Forums > Vals Im Bashir (2008) Discussion > Where are the Palestinian and Islamic mo...

Where are the Palestinian and Islamic movies...


...that show the introspection, regret and empathy of 'Waltz With Bashir'? Or is it just western movies and people that do this?

I wonder, do Palestinian or Islamic terrorists ever look back and think that their youthful bombing of a schoolbus, or nightclub, or sending a suicide bomber into a pizzeria, might have been questionable? Had consequences? Do they ever think that rioting over a cartoon, or the 'right' to wear a burqua, or issuing a fatwa on the author of a novel, might have been the wrong thing to do?

Interesting movie, nobody likes war. If the IDF didn't invade Lebanon, would the Palestinian terrorists have just chilled out and went away? What were some of the alternatives for the Israelis, other than to just go away or die? More than anything, this movie showed me the sameness of humanity and the difference in culture. I liked it very much. 8/10.

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I read about some Palestinians, who realized that deliberate killing civilians is an evil without excuses, and stoped their participation in terrorism. Largely, they were shunned by their clans and had to move away from PA and Gaza.

For a huge majority of Palestinian Arabs, though, the Jewish state does not have a right to exist, and the war must continue. Islamic law demands that lands once occupied by Muslims remained Muslims, and as such they plan war with Israel until their victory.

That's why Arab movies never show Israelis as kindly-spirited individuals they are, and resort to vicious images to prove "their high level of Arab nationalism". When we see some Arab movies with the same attitude to Israelis as shown here to Arabs - in the movie the only real characters are Arab women - we will know that Arab World became ready for peace.

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[deleted]

''I read about some Palestinians, who realized that deliberate killing civilians is an evil without excuses, and stopped their participation in terrorism.''

It was wrong for them to give up anti-Israeli activities. If they thought it wrong to kill children (which it is. Usually when Palestinians kill children it is due to an accident rather than being targets)they should have just fought the imperialist army of Israel instead. The fact that Palestinian land is being stolen every year, yet they desert their people doesn't really speak highly of them.

''For a huge majority of Palestinian Arabs, though, the Jewish state does not have a right to exist''

Israel doesn't have the right to exist. It is completely wrong to steal the country of others just because it was the land of the Jews, according to the Bible, over 2000 years ago.

''Islamic law demands that lands once occupied by Muslims remained Muslims''

Define ''occupied''. If you mean that the land was subjugated by the Palestinians (and I come to their religion later), you are wrong. If you mean land in which Palestinians live, you'd be right in saying once ''occupied''. The lands now held by the Israelis are the homelands of the Palestinians, it is their land just as Ireland is the land of the Irish, Germany the land of the Germans and Poland the land of the Poles. The fact that this land was subjugated and occupied by an immigrant people (the Zionists who moved to Palestine), doesn't change this, just as the fact that China's occupation by Japanese didn't make it Japanese land, or France's occupation by NAZI Germany didn't make the country German. The only main difference is that Israel was more vastly settled by an invader group changes nothing. The Jews in the area should be Jewish citizens of Palestine, as a few ''cultural Zionists'' (a somewhat OK form of Zionism that died out) wanted; they wanted Palestine, Israel to them, to be the hub of Judaism but they wanted to live within Palestine and use their European knowledge to benefit the Palestinian community. In short, they wanted a religious land to live in, but they also wanted to be citizens in the country which holds this religious centre.

Also, by the way, not all Palestinians are Muslim. Many are Christian and Jewish. In fact, one of the communities that have suffered the most from the Israeli occupation are Palestinian Christians; their traditional areas are now mostly Muslim due to the influx of Muslim settlement. Though this doesn't destroy their community, per se, it does change the face of Palestine. Many Christians are actually members of PLO, same with Jews. The conflict isn't really ''Jews vs. Muslims'' as people often seem to think, it is really ''Zionist vs. Palestinian''. You do have some anti-Jewish groups, like Hamas, but they are a symptom of trouble caused by Israel (it is a bit revealing that the Islamic world had usually been nicer to Jews than the Christian world, traditionally). PLO are not anti-Jewish.

''That's why Arab movies never show Israelis as kindly-spirited individuals they are, and resort to vicious images to prove "their high level of Arab nationalism".''

TV shows in PLO-run areas have Jewish Palestinian characters who are against Israel. In fact, you are really just pulling things out of your behind to passive-aggressively support the apartheid regime of Israel. In fact, I doubt that you have seen many ''Arab movies''. And, the lack of sympathetic Israeli characters is very understandable; the fact that you like to see Israel as civilised and progressive doesn't actually make it so. I wonder how you would feel if you were in the situation of the Palestinians?

''we will know that Arab World became ready for peace.''

Lets just talk about Palestine, shall we? Not all Islamic countries are enemies of Israel. Egypt hasn't been for years. Why should Palestinians accept all the demands for peace? They keep giving and giving. They have been making all sorts of compromises for years and years and things keep getting worse. Look at Jerusalem. That was, declared by the UN, to be a part of Palestine. The Israelis took it and made it their capital. The world has really done nothing to reign in Israeli aggression, they just give it a slap on the wrist. Jerusalem, incidentally, is considered the capital of Israel by the Israelis, yet most of the world, including the UN, considers Tel Aviv to be the capital... which does nothing to alleviate things at all. If Israel was an Islamic country, it is a fair bet that many nations would have descended on it by now.







If you hate Jesus Christ and are 100% proud of it copy this and make it your signature!

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if you're really interested in a movie that deals with the issue of occupation & suicide bombers in a way that is not black & white, go watch paradise now.

unless the question you posed was just a prelude to a rant.

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Just saw it. A great story of two friends. Not fanatics, just late 20s slackers, one guy gets fired from his job and the other is trying to get with this lady while they smoke a bowl in their undershirts in a third-world ghetto. Kind of like "Friday" but without the jokes.

Nowhere is the question of Palestinians' desire to wipe Israel from the face of the planet ever addressed.

Very funny part where the taxi driver rants about the conspiracy to put a chemical in the water to reduce Palestinian sperm count. I work with a Palestinian engineer who has 13(! yes!) kids being raised by his wife in Gaza; he cheats on her and lives with his girlfriend in Los Angeles, and believes many conspiracy theories (i.e. Jews invented AIDS, Arabs invented airplanes, etc.) He is a man of science, a licensed engineer, yet once in awhile he goes OFF on an insane rant with a nutty worldview. Anyway, good movie.

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excuse me for being blunt but you're either very lazy or willfully ignorant.

if you had spent just two minutes googling palestinian film you would find that, despite the military strangulation by the israeli army, it is one of the most vibrant, and self-critical cinemas in the world. but it's pretty difficult to sustain a national cinema when your neighbor doesn't allow you to form your own state.

cherien dabis
elia suleiman
hany abu-assad
anne-marie jacir
michele khleifi

are just five of the very top but their are dozens of others.

you also reveal your moronic prejudice in that you assume all palestinians and muslims are terrorists.

just because, like Judaism, Islam is a stupid, dogmatic, violent religion doesn't mean that movies aren't produced there.

as far as "islamic" cinema, whatever that means... perhaps you haven't heard of Iranian cinema which has been, along with South Korea and Romania, one of the most dominant global cinematic movements of the last 15 years.

http://www.nyccine.com


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khan0890, excuse me right back, but improving your reading comprehension should be a New Year's resolution. Reread the thread, or better yet have someone help you with it. The point of this thread is not that Palestinian and Islamic movies are not made.

I have a passing knowledge of Palestinian and Islamic cinema, when I read about Iranian (oops, "Persian!") when they make TV miniseries that show Jews killing and drinking the blood of Persian children (Secret of Armegeddon) or the conversion of Jews to Islam (40 Soldiers) and all the affirmation of the "Protocols of Zion" which is understood by the civilized and enlightened world as a proven hoax.

I do have full respect to the Iranian people who are in the street and protesting a corrupt and ineffective government. But the rest of the world can see now Islamic fascism treats any dissenting voice (i.e Salman Rushdie). Cheers.

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hahha... wow, you're such a pompous ass. ;) you don't dispute anything that i've said apart from saying you've watched some youtube clips from the MEMRI website. if you'd actually watched iranian cinema - perhaps the films of jafar panahi who criticizes the repression of women in iranian society. and another commenter has pointed out PARADISE NOW which is a severe critique of martyrdom but you conveniently dismiss it.

But you're right I don't quite understand your statement:
I wonder, do Palestinian or Islamic terrorists ever look back and think that their youthful bombing of a schoolbus, or nightclub, or sending a suicide bomber into a pizzeria, might have been questionable? Had consequences? Do they ever think that rioting over a cartoon, or the 'right' to wear a burqua, or issuing a fatwa on the author of a novel, might have been the wrong thing to do?

I don't understand it because it makes no sense. Do you expect suicide bombers to produce art? Do you expect terrorists to make movies on par with OFFSIDE or WALTZ WITH BASHIR? That is a completely preposterous supposition. Expecting the guy that tried to blow up the Northwest airline on Christmas to make art or reflect on his life is like expecting you to listen to reason.

if you're point is that Islam is a violent, dogmatic religion then you'll receive no disagreement from me, just like Judaism is a racist religion which explicitly condones genocide.

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LOL~! Yes, your brilliant analysis and argument has exposed me for the hypocritical ignoramus that I am. I will just crawl away in shame now, and try to learn from my mistake and the lesson you taught. Cheers~!

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[deleted]

Let idol/deity/god/fairy sort them all out.

Or are we only allowed to kill non-Israeli children?

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'I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit.'
by - GigabyteMe on Fri Sep 7 2012 20:37:27
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Let idol/deity/god/fairy sort them all out.
Or are we only allowed to kill non-Israeli children?

Sarcasm only works if your point is not premised in ignorance.

Here is a 5 minute video memory of 100+ Israeli children killed by Palestinian terrorists in the past few years. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYyZ9pZE9PM Surely you have 5 minutes to educate yourself about something that you hold such strong opinions on.




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So what you are saying is that it is O.K. to kill Arab babies if some Arab adults kill Israeli kids?

Dude you ought to have a show on the Fox network.

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GigabyteMe on Tue Oct 2 2012 23:29:47
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So what you are saying is BLAH, BLAH, BLAH...


No. What I'm saying is what I said. Please work on your reading comprehension, and reread. Only then should you post.

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Yeah, you said "THEY are evil scum who murder OUR babies therefore WE must murder THEIR babies to teach THEM a lesson in goodness and civilized behavior."

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Troll away!:-)

Seriously, please watch the 5 minute video. There is no acceptable response. Palestinians don't want what Israelis (or any western nation) wants. Palestinians and the PLA are not negotiating for a peaceful existence in their own nation; they are buying time until they can remove Israel (and eventually the West) from the face of the earth.

There is no moral equivalence for what Islamic terrorism is destroying all over the world. And there are bodies of philosophy and law since the Roman Empire that declare the intentional death of innocents is not part of a just war. It is uncivilized, and the Palestinians (and their Muslim supporters) are counting on Western nations to behave in a civilized way. If the West behaved as the Palestinians and Islam terrorists behave, the conflict would be over in 30 minutes. But it isn't. Because Israel and the West is civilized.

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Somewhere on one of their message boards someone is saying the same thing about you.

This is why these wars drag on forever: Because of superiority complexes.

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No. Nobody is. There is no moral equivalency. Superiority complexes are not why wars drag on forever, but they are why some Troll posts seem to drag on forever.:-)

Bottom line is, the Palestinians do not want to simply live their lives like the rest of the world; with a job, a family, some fulfillment, maybe a hobby, worship, and let others do the same. Pretending otherwise will not end well. Go ask a Palestinian (maybe ask yourself?) what it is they want to stop terror; and then ask yourself if that would involve allowing the rest of the world to live as they wish.

Well, you certainly do ad hominem well. Take that any way you want.:-) Your fact-free, but strongly emoted, posts speak for themselves, I don't have anything more to say. Please have the last word, if you so desire. Cheers.

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Talk about "emotive and fact-free"!

If you're just some troll hoping to make reasonable people start to dislike Israelis, I have to say well done, you're doing an incredible job.

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Your a *beep* you obviously have no idea what the Israeli occupation forces and illegal settlers do to the Palestinians!!!! Kindly Isrealis?!!! So what if they felt regret afterwards?! They bombed the *beep* outta Lebanon and allowed the massacre to happen?!

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Lot of hostility here, both overt and subverted. Paradise Now is next on my movie que and it will make a nice bookend to this film, once I get done watching all the special features on this disk. But, and correct me if I am wrong, I understand that Paradise Now shows second thoughts of would be suicide bombers missing their loved ones, hurting their families by their deaths, missing out on their futures. I'm not sure if it deals with the larger question, which is really this:

When you first set off to air your grievances by deliberately attacking noncombatants, you set a mechanism in motion that leads to more and more innocents dying, including your own people. Moreover, creating an atmosphere of anarchy and political instability in Lebanon (so that Hezbollah or Palestinian commandos can operate freely and attack across the boarder) means sooner or later massacres like Sabra/Shatila are inevitable, whether by Israelis, Philangists, rival Palestinian factions or friendly fire, and maybe that's not the best we can strive for.

I think the OP's question is really whether, in mainstream Palestinian film, or Arab film, or Persian film, (or literature, or other art form) there is a recognition that regardless of the legitimacy of any original grievance, a cycle of violence takes two to perpetuate and may actually be taking the Palestinians further from the goal of having a peaceful, prosperous and stable homeland of their own.*

If there is a movie in the Arab world that addresses this question, I'd love to watch it and would gladly promote it to friends and family. I say that without any venom or sarcasm intended. I really would love to have hope.

*I recognize that according to Hamas and Hezbollah, the goal is actually the destruction of Israel and murdering/pushing every last Jew into the Sea. Each side has it's extremists. What I'm looking for is evidence of any movement in Arabic/Persian art that takes issue with this position and advocates for coexistence.

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"*I recognize that according to Hamas and Hezbollah, the goal is actually the destruction of Israel and murdering/pushing every last Jew into the Sea."

unfortunately the truth is exactly the opposite. i feel sorry for the palestinian people.

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If there is a movie in the Arab world that addresses this question, I'd love to watch it and would gladly promote it to friends and family. I say that without any venom or sarcasm intended. I really would love to have hope.


rlippman-2, I think your post, in it's simple and honest way, is very well put, and i'm with you in your quest as quoted above. Being a year later replying this topic, i wonder if you have found something relevant. If so, i would apreciate any suggestions.

This movie, and a couple of other israeli i've watched recently, actually gave me some of that hope, as now i aknowledge that this whole issue can be, and is being perceived with a resonable, and simply put, more human aproach by those directly involved and unfortunatelly surrounded by this cycle of violence, as you put.

That somewhat new perception i had, raised me some other questions besides the OP's one:

- Is the general message and "empathetic tone"(for the lack of better words, my english is kinda lame) of this movie any representative of some the current israeli society's viewpoint, or is this aproach more limited to an artistic/intelectual elite among the jews. How was this movie(and others) received by the jewish mainstream?

- How such a movie, as work from an israeli, is received by palestinians and overall arabs involved with the conflict.

As for the op's question, i don't think it's fair, nor realistic to expect palestinians, at this point, considering their current situation, to come up with many movies at all, and even less portraing simpathy for the people living in their deprived homeland.

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Still looking, unfortunately. Thanks for your comments. From what I can tell, there are many in Israel that want to show the bad side (for lack of a better term) of the occupation and empathize with the degradation that Palestinians live with. "Lemon Tree" was another such Israeli movie, which shows a Palestinian being subject to heartbreaking injustice for no more of a crime than living in the wrong place at the wrong time (portraying the Israeli military as arrogant and abusive, and suggesting that the only hope is in the honesty of ordinary citizens to look across the green line and see a reflection of themselves - I won't say more as I don't want to ruin it for you).

Anyway, while there are no doubt limited resources for Palestinian film making, film making does indeed go on in the West Bank and Gaza, so it is possible. In the end, any moderate voices need to be Muslim voices, or they will be rejected out of hand as being subversive.

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there is a recognition that regardless of the legitimacy of any original grievance, a cycle of violence takes two to perpetuate and may actually be taking the Palestinians further from the goal of having a peaceful, prosperous and stable homeland of their own.


This applies to the Israelis even more so than the Palestinians, who are a symptom of this cycle and not the course, whether you support Zionism and Israel is besides the point but you shouldn't forget that the Zionist Terrorist organisation such as Haganeh (the kindliest and most civilised out of them, which isn't saying much) and the Zionist-Fascist groups (Fascist not Nazi; deriving in part from the ideology of Mussolini and the Italian Fascists) Lehi and Irgun actually started a campaign of terror long before any Palestinian muslim decided to strap a bomb to his chest, shout Allahu Akbar and blow up against stome stone wall on the Israeli-Palestinian border. The aforementioned groups were responsible for the murders of British Army personnel who were stationed in Palestine since the end of WWII (in which most of them fought in and were waiting to put behind them by being discharged) and then booby-trapping their bodies; they were the ones that strapped bombs onto donkeys and sent them into crowded Palestinian market-places; who massacred Palestinian towns to scar them into fleeing their homes and how bombed various buildings allover the mandate (such as, famously, the King David Hotel).

It isn't one sided, Palestinians ("terrorists" and "soldiers"... not all are terrorists unless you view the world as black and white) perpetuate the violence that had started generations ago, but so do the Israelis under the cover of being a legitimate nation with an official military (again not all are "soldiers" in the same way not all Palestinians are "terrorists"). It isn't as one sided as Zionists and the majority of US Americans seem to believe it to be.

"The game's afoot!"

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As I say, "regardless of the legitimacy of any original grievance..." Because you can't keep killing, generation after generation, and blame it on what the Irgun did or didn't do as the justification. You have to take responsibility for making peace IN THIS GENERATION, or you end up a slave to the past and war becomes a way of life: inevitable and unavoidable, in the same sense that the Romans believed it was, or the Nazis, or any number of other martial cultures.

If war is truly the natural state of mankind, then those who advocate peace are fools, those who decry using any and every means available to wipe out the enemy to the last man, woman and child are misguided and only serve to perpetuate the conflict. To paraphrase William Tecumseh Sherman - "war is hell" and in "total war", civilian populations are legitimate and fair targets and it is immoral not to ravage them where their very society, culture and religion has dedicated itself to the utter annihilation of your own. Utter destruction is the reason why neither the American Indian nor the Southern Confederate, nor the Nazis persisted as stateless armies of terrorists once those conflicts were over.

NOTE TO THOSE WHOSE READING COMPREHENSION AND ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND A RHETORICAL ARGUMENT IS LACKING - THIS IS NOT WHAT I BELIEVE!

To me, the problem seems to be that no "cease fire" agreement ever sticks. There are extremists on both sides who refuse to let peace endure. Whether it's assassinating Anwar Sadat or assassinating Yizhak Rabin, or any of the dozens of times that Hamas or Islamic Jihad have broken cease fire agreements, or Hezbollah have fired rockets across the boarder. If you can't say "ENOUGH", if you can't understand that war without end can only end with a holocaust (possibly nuclear in the 21st century), then you are doomed.

I believe it is up to the artists to point this out. My question was were in Arab film do you find the message that war is not inevitable being spoken?

As I write this I am reading about the shooting of 14 yr old Malala Yousufzai by the Taliban for her advocacy for young girls being allowed to go to school. And I am also following the tens of thousands who are rallying in the streets in support of her cause and against the militant groups. And in mentioning this, my point is that this chapter of human history has not yet been written, and there is reason for both despair and tremendous hope that our better angles will prevail and the people will not allow the history of the 21st century to be written by anarchists and terrorists, as it was so often the case in the 20th.
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A wrench to the head changes everything.

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OP is right as rain.

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