A black Heathcliff?


I have nothing against black people but I saw that the guy, James howson, which was cast for heath cliff, is black.
When reading the book I didn't see him that way and I am really nervous about how it will turn out. He doesn't look edgy enough, he looks....... Sweet?
Hmmm I defiantly think that ed west wick would do better, GG doesn't do him justice.

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Well, I read that Andrea Arnold orignially tried to find someone of Roma heritage, but were unable to find one. She also had people of Asian descent to audition. This would, I agree, be more fitting for the character. It just so happened that James Howson came out best for the part. I'll admit that I at first thought it was a strange choice, but I do appriciate Arnolds search for an actor who looks the part and is of color (as Heatcliff is). I've always found it awkward to see rather fair men with light eye colors cast as Heathcliff (allthough my favorite up until now is Tim Dalton, as he at least has black hair and a slightly darker skin tone than what is usual for white people).

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I agree, I am not sure about it either. Especially now after seeing the pic of him as Heathcliff. I just don't see him as that character. I will have to wait and see how the performance is but at the moment I am not sure.

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I just watched and was horribly diasappointed. He was not Heathcliff, looks wise dark does not mean black. So when ever I read WH I picture a dark skinned guy who is either Romanian or Greek or even middle Eastern. Personality wise I agree with the OP the actor was sweet and sweet is not Heathcliff.

Hindly and Edgar were amazing but one should not watch WH and be taken with supporting characters and have zero investment in Heathcliff and Cathy.

Side note 20 in 1771 was different from 20 in 2012, often I look at old photos or painted portraita and am shocked at how "young" the people are. So age be damned, Clive Owen that is what I see when I think Heathcliff, he has dark hair and eyes and a dark skin tone. Also he is brooding, dominant, he can pull off cruelty. I'll take an actor who is "too old" who makes me believe he is Heathcliff over an actor who is 20 and looks like some guy in period costume. JMO

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When I had read she was going to cast a Roma I was really excited as it's how I've always seen Heathcliff. James was a fail for me, partially because I had my heart set on seeing a Roma actor in the role, and partially because he looks too cutesy cute. Heathcliff is not boy band cutesy. It made the whole thing really fall to pieces IMO.

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"It's better not to know so much about what things mean." David Lynch

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Romanian is not the same as Romani or Roma...do some research before stating someting like that...

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I think you mean 'Gypsy'-that's the English word for that ethnic group in the same way we call the Germans German (not Deutsche)or the Dutch Dutch (not Nederlander)-what they call themselves in their own language is irrelevant-black people were very rare in Britain at the time the novel is set-not unheard of, especially in the large port towns and Aristos sometimes had black servants as 'novelties' but in the remote Yorkshire world of WH they would be like aliens from another planet-anyone of even Southern European background would have appeared to be 'of colour'to the very white folks living there-'Lascars' were Indians from the Lascar Islands in the south east of the Sub Continent, often recruited as sailors on merchant ships, again not an unusual sight in British port towns during the 19th century.

'What is an Oprah?'-Teal'c.

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no- 'gypsy' is a SLUR for that ethnic group in english, and is not equivalent to calling germans 'german'. it's more akin to us calling black people the n-word.

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Gypsy is not normally a pejorative term (though it depends on context); unlike gyppo and pikey. http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/gypsy?q=gypsy
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/gyppo?q=gyppo
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/pikey?q=pikey

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while you're in the dictionary, look up 'connotation' and 'denotation'- gypsy is most assuredly a slur used to demean and degrade several different ethnic groups in europe.

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''So when ever I read WH I picture a dark skinned guy who is either Romanian or Greek or even middle Eastern.''

Ignoring the fact that Heathcliff is ruddy and vampiric, the book only speculates that he is a gypsy, which are not the same as Romanians or Greeks either. Heathcliff is simply dark which means he could be African, Indian, Romany (''Gypsy''), Irish (because of ''bog Irish'', due top the Gulf Stream), Welsh (the Gulf Stream again), Turkish, Spanish, Italian, Guarani and even English; it all depends on how dark you think Heathcliff is.

I hate to say this, but the objection to him being of African descent (or part African descent) smacks of racism. There is no real evidence in the book which states he definitely isn't of African descent.

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Haply I may remember,
And haply may forget.

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[deleted]

Ch. VII (Ellen advising Heathcliff on keeping his dignity ) "Who knows but your father was Emperor of China, and your mother an Indian queen"


isn't it ". . . your mother an African queen" in this film? It IS an adaptation.

Charlotte Bronte wrote a preface in which she said of Heathcliff " . . . we should say he was child neither of Lascar, not gipsy, but of man's shape animated by demon life - a Ghoul - an Afreet."

It seems she is saying it doesn't really matter to the story his ethnicity, it is his dark sold - or lack thereof - that is important.

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[deleted]

That is the salient point, of course. If Heathcliff was meant to be black African, EMILY WOULD HAVE TOLD US SO, IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS.

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[deleted]

Arnold's casting choices have been inspired and worked before, so I'm confident that this unknown actor Howson will work. It's also exciting to have a black man play Heathcliff.

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I just heard the review on Filmspotting top10 so i was looking foreward to a novel treatment (no pun intended) of this classic.

Instead i saw the poster frame for the trailer & was instantly revolted by the callow cynical casting choice of a negro to play a feral Yorkshireman :(

The ridiculous presumption that enervates so much of contemporary tv/theatre/film that the negro (or the arab or the muslim) is somehow the only choice to represent the agony/angst/ennui/etc of the human condition is just as emotionally facile as it is intellectually flaccid.

What was a refreshing frisson in a Benetton advert 20 years ago does not make for authentic casting today; it is, rather, just derivative & it detracts from the integrity of the author's work.

sigh.

What's next? — Romeo is gay & Juliet a hermaphrodite? (which might be entirely fascinating though it certainly wouldnt be "shakespeare" qua Shakespeare).

There is so only much innovation that a classic (especially from The Cannon) can afford before it is estranged from itself; if an artist wishes to make such adaptations then he should dispense with the pretense of the original text & instead simply declare that his work is "inspired by" the classic — and as such contains so much that is original that it is judged as a unique work of art which should stand on its own, and not on the shoulders of giants.

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Zahadum. MANY, MANY, MANY members have pointed out why Heathcliff being black might actually closer to the book than a white person playing the part. Instead of spouting the same misinformed, and dare I say racist, comments please read the rest of the thread...at least the preceding page.

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Haply I may remember,
And haply may forget.

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Do you take horrible offense to Othello being cast as Black too?

"It's not about money.... It's about sending a Message..... Everything Burns!!!"

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Othello isn't actually black in the books he's north african'/ tunisian - so NOT black

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Wow. The ignorance abounds. IF HES TUNISIAN, HE IS BLACK. IF HE IS NORTH AFRICAN, HE IS BLACK!!! Not only are you a racist *beep* but you are literally a dumb racist *beep*. Racists are ignorant in nature so that's redundant.

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SugarBeats, I'm afraid you're the ignorant one here. North African is definitely not black. There are black people in the South of Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco and Libya, but most people are not black. They are dark and look Middle-Easteren/Mediterranean.

I should know. I am Tunisian myself.

ETA: Even black North Africans are distinguishable in looks from Subsaharan Africans, so they're probably not of the same ethnicity. But of course, you keep looking at the world through your black and white glasses.

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Google "Tunisian people" and shut up.

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good job being racist

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Bad job playing the race card!

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He does have a sweet look about him, and though I never really saw Heathcliff as literally black either I think he did a pretty good job in the role, it seemed he was doing the best he could. I didn't care for the overall film though. There hasn't really been a film version I've like yet.

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If Emily Bronte had meant for Heathcliff to be black, she would have told us so in no uncertain terms. It took 175 years for someone to read WH and decide he should be black. That has nothing to do with Emily Bronte and everything to do with the socialization/integration of a much smaller world than the one Emily grew up in. What is bothersome is why some people feel the need to mischaracterize classic literature instead of writing their own. Write your own black, Hispanic, Oriental Heathcliff and leave Emily's alone.

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urbisoler-1: I absolutely agree with you.

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well said

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We have
Ch.1 John Lockwood: "His black eyes withdraw"
Ch.4 Nelly Dean: "A dirty, ragged, black haired child"
Ch.7 Cathrine Earnshaw: "How very black and cross you look"
Heathcliff:"I wish I had light hair and a fair skin"
Nelly Dean:"A good heart will help you to a bonny face, my lad,if you were a regular black; and a bad one will turn the bonniest into something worse than ugly."
Ch.10 Nelly Dean:"I distinguished a tall man dressed in dark clothes with dark face and hair...A ray fell on his features; the cheeks were sallow, and half covered with black whiskers; the brows lowering, the eyes deep-set and singular. I remembered the eyes." (Note that she is looking at Heathcliff by the light of a rising moon, full or near full ie. a yellow/white light)
and again:"He had grown a tall, athletic, well-formed man; beside whom my master seemed quite slender and youth-like...His countenance was much older in expression and decision of feature than Mr. Linton’s; it looked intelligent, and retained no marks of former degradation. A half-civilised ferocity lurked yet in the depressed brows and eyes full of black fire, but it was subdued; and his manner was even dignified: quite divested of roughness, though stern for grace."
Nelly Dean again:"‘God forbid that he should try!’ answered the black villain."

Ch.16 Nelly Dean:"on examination, I ascertained to have been taken from a locket hung round Catherine’s neck. Heathcliff had opened the trinket and cast out its contents, replacing them by a black lock of his own. I twisted the two, and enclosed them together."

Ch.17 Isabella Heathcliff: "the casement behind me was banged on to the floor by a blow, and his black countenance looked blightingly through. The stanchions stood too close to suffer his shoulders to follow, and I smiled, exulting in my fancied security. His hair and clothes were whitened with snow, and his sharp cannibal teeth, revealed by cold and wrath, gleamed through the dark."

Ch.20 Linton Heathcliff and Nelly Dean "‘Black hair and eyes!’ mused Linton. ‘I can’t fancy him. Then I am not like him, am I?’

‘Not much,’ I answered: not a morsel, I thought, surveying with regret the white complexion and slim frame of my companion, and his large languid eyes—his mother’s eyes"

Ch.33 Nelly Dean:"Heathcliff’s black eyes flashed;"
Heathcliff: "I ought to, and probably shall, remain above ground till there is scarcely a black hair on my head."
Nelly Dean: "unnatural appearance of joy under his black brows"

To recap: Every description of Heathcliff's physical appearance refers to his high forehead, prominant black eyebrows, sunken black eyes, long black hair, dark/dusky/black complexion, tall athletic build, physical strength and sharp white teeth. The single word most often used to describe Heathcliff is: BLACK.

But Bronte is nuanced: he is not a *regular* black - Nelly compares him to Lascars (a term given originally to describe Muslims from the East Indian British colonies, impressed by the Navy or serving in the British Merchant Marine, although it had gained common use as a description for any black sailor, or ex-sailor, or dark skinned Briton, by 1800 or so.- and there were many black sailors, servants, free men and slaves in Liverpool in the last half of the eighteenth century)
Gypsy (the word being a corruption of 'Egyptian', which was the nationality the English ascribed to the Roma, although by the 1800's the term was used even more loosely to describe the troops of itinerant unemployed that roamed the countryside ostensibly looking for work- including many dark skinned peoples other than Romany from all over the British Empire, -and in 1783, when Heathcliff returns, the 'gypsies' also might include the American-born loyalists ex-soliders/runaway slaves (depending on if you see it from Clinton's or Washington's point of veiw) that had fought for Britain in the War of Independence and emigrated after.
Bronte puts many Orientalist suggestions for Heathcliff's heritage in the novel, although all are speculative, for instance when Nelly consoles Heathcliff with "Who knows but your father was Emperor of China, and your mother an Indian queen?" It is quite clear that Emily Bronte intended her anti-hero to be a half-caste black, muslim or kaffir, in the mold of Byron's heros (eg. Salim in Bride of Abydos, or Conrad in the Corsair).

In the novel, Heathcliff's actual origins are never explicitly revealed,but there are clues as well as mystery: he is found in Liverpool, at the age of seven, in the year 1771, by Mr Ernshaw, a farmer from Yorkshire who has walked sixty miles there and back for unexplained business, at the start of the harvest, busiest time of year for a farmer. At the time, any destitute woman with child was required by law to name the sire of her child to the midwife in order to receive parish assistance. The parish was legally responsible for the maintenance of the 'impotent' poor (ie. People unable to work) of the parish, but as the parish committees that managed the care usually included the parish rate-payers that contributed most to the poor-tax, every means of avoiding unnecessary burden to the public purse was explored. So the mother would be expected to work off her parish assistance as soon as she could get on her feet again, and the father was pursued for the maintenance of the child. If neither of them were members of the parish the pregnant woman was in, they could be moved on to their home parish. If the father did not offer the name of an alternative putative father, and would not pay, he could be put in the stocks. The parish would typically demand the cost of raising the child for its first seven years (the cost was typically not great- about twenty shillings a year, at a time when a working man could expect to earn about that much in a week. But it had to be paid up front, and the 'care' that it purchased was not great- if you google up 'An earnest appeal for mercy to the children of the poor' by Jonas Hanway, you can read for yourself how bad). If the child survived to the age of seven, it would be apprenticed out to any tradesman that would provide it with food and board, unless someone in its family came to collect it. Again there are records of appalling abuse (eg. Elizabeth Brownrigg - and this was not an isolated case).
This, and the ages of Mr Earnshaw's legitimate children, and the naming of Heathcliff after the Earnshaws' dead child, implies that Heathcliff might be the bastard son of Mr Earnshaw.

There is even less information provided about Heathcliff's mother - although if we posit Earnshaw as the father, Heathcliff must have got his dark complexion (although not necessarily his dark eyes) from her. That Heathcliff was found in Liverpool is also a clue. At the time of Heathcliff's birth, Liverpool was the largest slave-trading port in Britain, and had the largest number of black Britons outside of London. (The Somerset case, that had the effect of converting chattel slaves to servants or free people, in England and Scotland, did not take place until 1772, and the abolition of the slave trade was six years after the end of the novel, in 1808. Of course, by the time Emily wrote the book, chattel slavery was illegal throughout the British Empire, although not absolutely eradicated in all parts of the empire, and still very much a way of life in the USA.) Like most docks, Liverpool had women of all races finding a living in prostitution (which was legal), or taking in washing, as chars and as bar maids, all the way along it.
Emily Bronte shunned all publicity and refused to reveal her identity even when her publisher was attempting to pass off Anne's work as Charlotte's, and claiming that she also was Charlotte. So we have no record of Emily writing about Wuthering Heights (although she did have a word or two to say about its publisher), or discussed it with a journalist or biographer, although her sister Charlotte did, and unambiguously described Heathcliff as 'the black' when she did.
While Emily Bronte also uses black figuratively (eg: Black night, black soul, black looks), it is clear that she also meant Heathcliff to stand out and be ostracised by his foreign appearance and dark complexion.
The real wonder is that for so many of the 164 years since the novel was first published, people have insisted on Heathcliff being white, and that in the 72 years that movies have been made of Wuthering Heights, it has been traditional to have Heathcliff played by a white man painted orange, or a white man who had played Othello, because a Black Briton is somehow a literary impossibility, in spite of being historical reality.

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Thank you, tarn. Too many people have gotten their images of Heathcliff from Hollywood. Heathcliff looked nothing like Laurence Olivier or Orson Welles. And Emily Bronte intended Heathcliff as a person of color from a far off land--someone different.

Filmmakers adapt and take liberties with the classics all the time. And people are also cast trans-racially as well. How many white actors have played Othello? What's the big effin deal?

We got rid of the "white only" or "female only" hiring scheme a long time ago. Get with the times.

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[deleted]

"If Emily Bronte had meant for Heathcliff to be black, she would have told us so in no uncertain terms. It took 175 years for someone to read WH and decide he should be black."

Uh? Bronte did tell us in every possible way that Heathcliff was a "foreigner" (swarthy, Lascar, moor, black eyes, dark skin, etc), and there's a debate among Bronte academics and social historians about Heathcliff's actual ethnicity. This debate has been going for almost 150 years.

Most however agree on one thing: Heathcliff isn't white. There's no doubt about this.

The question mark is over his actual ethnicity. African, Indian, Romani, Egyptian, Arab, mixed race...nobody really knows, but the fact remains: he isn't white. The answer makes no difference, anyway, because he's still seen as a "dark, dangerous" foreigner by people who aren't used to seeing people like him, even though there were black English-born people living in England at the time. There just wasn't enough for non-white English-born people to be a familiar sight for the majority.

Either way, I do think the director made a good call on the casting because considering today's audience, it's possibly the only way to make the audience understand what it's like to be seen as a 'foreigner' at the time. At the time when English people viewed French/German/anyotherEuropean people with suspicion and mild hostility.

That said, I think it's very odd that people generally don't say anything when a non-white character becomes white in a film, but make a fuss when it's reversed.

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Why is the race of a character SO important to some people? I don't think black people got together and decided to "take" this wonderful story. I didn't know it was whites only novel. We have other more important things to worry about.

Should have never even clicked on this foolishness probably stared by a 13 year old..

Excellent points mcvillain.

Love is the answer...but bring the extra clip in-case.

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Do you have the same objection to all the white Heathcliffs? It seems if your point is to be true to EB's work, you would have.

If she specified he looked 'gypsy' or 'Lascar', then she was trying to tell you he was of uncertain, not entirely Caucasian parentage. In other words, brown.

Seems the casting fits, to me.

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Heathcliff wasn't white OP why don't you read the book! In the book Heathcliff was a man of colour he was called a lascar.

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I did read the book actually, as have many people who I have talked to who also believed he was white. We mustn't have picked that up. Also "a man of colour" could be someone with olive skin if I am not mistaken....

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Based on the book and the way they described him as looking like a Lascar, I pictured Heathcliff to look Middle Eastern or Indian, even dark-skinned Romanian would have worked.

I'm just glad that they picked a Heathcliff that DOES look different from everyone else in the film; I hate it when movies ignore a characters cultural background and choose the WASP-y actors over the more diverse ones. I have yet to see the movie, so I can't say much for the actor's ability.


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[deleted]

Think of how many people read The Hunger Games without recognizing that Rue and Thresh were, if not "black," then at least dark-skinned -- and then got mad when black actors were cast in those roles. It sounds like the objection to a black Heathcliff is coming from a similar place, since as several people have pointed out, white actors have played the role without anyone saying Boo. This version looks interesting, and I'm looking forward to seeing it.

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I agree, so what is the big deal. Everyone did not read the book and even the ones who did should just stop and see the movie and performances first. Why does it seems as every black character is judged differently. There is no talk of what we normally see when there are white characters such as he is good looking or bad, his acting was stiff or he was to old or young etc.

What we get here was he was supposed to be of another race. To the person who said write a novel about other races and leave the ones where the race was played by someone white, I say leave the writer alone if they decide to do it differently.

Viewers whom did not read the book deserves to see and enjoy what the film maker wants us to see and they should be allowed to make a film to all, not just the ones who feel this should be a film on what they alone should like.

We get with this movie the same thing I notice in the film world over and over and it is when a black character is used the film is judged differently and it is not just Hollywood.

Thank goodness to the few people in the film industry who will do as they are pleased and go with what they feel is there heartfelt versions and not listen or be swayed by people who will use any theory they can to suppress freedom in the film and art world.

We should be judging black films in the same manner as we do any other film, Accents, camera work, scene locations etc. Not because we fell there should have been another race playing the lead.

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When the director decided to cast an African-heritage black man as Heathcliff, it became her Wuthering Heights instead of Emily Bronte's. Go see it in that understanding. I'll go to see it, but not expecting anything like a worthwhile translation of the great book I've read.


"The value of an idea has nothing to do with the honesty of the man expressing it."--Oscar Wilde

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Fair enough, I get your point as I hope you got mines.

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When the director decided to cast an African-heritage black man as Heathcliff, it became her Wuthering Heights instead of Emily Bronte's.


@gayspiritwarrior

That's the point. The director offers her interpretation of the source material. Based on its trailer, I will also see this film. It offers a visually beautiful adaptation/ interpretation of Bronte's novel. I hope that the actor can sufficiently interpret the character's dark and moody disposition.



Beauty may be only skin deep, but arrogance and stupidity go down to the bone.

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I loved this book and in this book Heathcliff is not black, FULL POINT.
I'm pissed that people agree with disrespecting the character, and at the double standard: people would have been shocked, had the hero been black and a white actor used. But the other way it looks fine to distort one of the main characters of this story.
So yeah in my book (!) this is important, it's about respecting this huge awesome story and its author, for God's sake. -__-

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^ This.

I won't be seeing this movie.

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[deleted]

This simply is not true.

Hethcliff's ethnicity is largely debated in the literary community and you are ignoring they. Whether you BELIEVE he was white is one thing, but to say that Hethcliff was white with absolute certainty is immature and ignorant. No one knows exactly what Charlotte Bronte meant when she described him as dark skinned and it is open to interpretation.

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It is not open to that interpretation, unless you simply don't care to honor the author's vision. "Dark-skinned" in that place at that time definitely did not mean black, and there's nothing of interpretation about that conclusion.


"The value of an idea has nothing to do with the honesty of the man expressing it."--Oscar Wilde

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lol. So you think you can just throw a vague statement like "around that time" and know for a fact you're right?

Well, I hate to burst your bubble, but it's completely possible that Bronte wrote about a black character in her book. The book was written in the mid 1800s and slaves had been brought from Africa in the UK LOOOONG before that (in the 1600s).

It is completely possible that Heathcliff could have been of mixed race (babies born from a slave and her master were very common).

You seem like a person who is just angry that someone casted someone who is not your idea of Heathcliff. Because in reality, this casting was a long time coming.

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1. You misquoted me. I did not say "around that time;" I said "At that time."
2. Of course it's possible to have seen a black person, but Bronte does not describe a black person, nor would a black person have been called a "Gypsy beggar."
3. I'm very happy for you that you think "this casting was a long time coming." We disagree. Move on.


"The value of an idea has nothing to do with the honesty of the man expressing it."--Oscar Wilde

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"nor would a black person have been called a "Gypsy beggar.""

Actually, you're incorrect. Take a look at any England & Wales census prior 1901 and you'll see that in some parishes, black Britons were described as swarthy, gypsy, negro, lascar, moor, etc. That's why so many Bronte academics still have problems determining Heathcliff's ethnicity in accordance with Bronte's editorial intentions.

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And "gipsy" , in those times, often referred to Egyptians, who are North Africans. When people say they don't believe that Heathcliff could have been African, I must wonder how they envision Africa. It's a huge continent with an array of countries and peoples and colors. Anwar Sadat was a black Egyptian; Mubarak is lighter though his sons are much darker. Romanian gypsies were nomadic peoples who hung together and were largely "self employed," so to speak.

My only complaint about James Howson as Heathcliff has nothing to do with his color -- it is that I don't think he ever succeeded in portraying the gravitas of an adult Heathcliff. Adult Heathcliff was monstrous and intimidating and controlling. You would cower before him like you would before the devil. I didn't get that vibe from Howson. Someone like Lawrence Fishburne would have been a terrific Heathcliff.

"Part of Heathcliff’s enduring appeal is arguably his ethnic indeterminacy, both in terms of his own conflicted identity and the way he is perceived by others. People do not know what to make of him, a fact that Arnold has recognised in her film. “I think the only reason people are surprised is that they’ve just seen white Heathcliffs all the time and I don’t think anyone’s really concentrated on the text,” she recently said, noting Brontë’s ambiguous descriptions of the character. “I decided that’s really where the truth was. What really mattered was his difference, his exoticness. That was mainly what I thought was really important.”

http://repeatingislands.com/2011/11/13/how-heathcliff-got-a-racelift-an-afro-caribbean-heathcliff-in-new-version-of-wuthering-heights/

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LOL! For one, a book and a film are two different things. Filmmakers often take liberties--though in this case, Arnold has gravitated toward existing scholarly research about Heathcliff and the times--when adapting books.

In Children of Men, a black Fugee was cast as the pregnant woman. In the book by P.D. James, the pregnant woman was white and missing an arm. Theo was an academic and drunk because years before he had killed his child by hitting him with his car. P.D. James thought this was a brilliant adaptation because it drove home her point well in a 90-minute film vs a lengthier book.

"In 1786, the Committee for the Relief of the Black Poor was originally set up thanks to concern over Lascars left in London. However, in a report made after one month of the Committee's existence, it was found that only 35 of the 250 recipients of aid were Lascars, while the remainining recipients were Africans and former slaves from the Americas."

Dark men who worked on English ships were commonly called Lascars, without any specificity about their ethnic origins as noted above. In short, anyone dark was a Lascar, be they from India or Africa. The white English didn't make distinctions about the dark people based on country of origin. To them at the time, they were all black people. Even when the British colonized India, they were treated as black people and not allowed to enjoy the privileges of whites--they were enslaved.

Really, this is the most ignorant conversation about Bronte's book I've ever heard. If you said this to any 19th century literary academic, you'd be regarded with "polite" incredulity. Your insistence that Heathcliff may have just been white and olive skinned distorts all of Bronte's novel and characterization. If Heathcliff had just been a suntanned white person, Heathcliff as a character would have been completely different and his relationship with Cathy also different.

You may not want to read the scholarship on Wuthering Heights. So try Cliff's Notes.



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Since you seem to be answering to my post, let me ask you where you see my "insistence that Heathcliff may have just been white and olive skinned". In fact I never have said and never would say such a thing. Have you never heard of the term "Black Irish"? Those folks were not black-skinned. In any case, you seem also to have missed my post on the previous page, where I said,

"When the director decided to cast an African-heritage black man as Heathcliff, it became her Wuthering Heights instead of Emily Bronte's. Go see it in that understanding. I'll go to see it, but not expecting anything like a worthwhile translation of the great book I've read."

I'm fully aware of Lascars. Merriam-Webster defines "Lascar" as "an Indian sailor, army servant, or artilleryman" and in your own post the author you quote differentiates Lascars from Africans, which you subsequently do not do.

Finally, your smarmy little closing dig rather cheapens what you have to say. Do you really think personal innuendo makes your point more convincing?


"The value of an idea has nothing to do with the honesty of the man expressing it."--Oscar Wilde

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You miss the point of my quote. All blacks who worked on ships were called lascars. The English didn't care whether you were from India, Africa, or the Carribean. In the eyes of the whites, if you were not white, you were black. Indians were regarded as black, the British colonized the country, and enslaved the "darkies."

It wasn't until a commission was appointed that the ethnicities were officially sorted out. That doesn't mean one dark person was treated any differently than another. They weren't white so they were black according to the common mentality of the times.

There really is no argument at all about this. The only debate is driven by your desire to make Heathcliff not-black. But for all intents and purposes, he would have been regarded and treated as a black person because he was not white.

There's been loads of scholarly research on this--Arnold is casting along the lines of that accepted research. Casting Heathcliff as black is only radical if you subscribe to a Hollywood fantasy. This really isn't any big deal and this casting is more authentic than a Lawrence Olivier or Orson Welles Wuthering Heights romantic fantasy.

The Brontes wrote tough books about characters that lived in gritty times and that explored all kinds of taboo (for the times) areas of society. They were, in fact, the brazen & bold Bronte sisters when it came to their writing, a primary reason their work has lasted so long.

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In that time in place dark skinned definitely did not mean black? How would you know? You do realize a famous French writer named Alexandre Dumas had black heritage. So I think England could have enough blacks. Not too many, but America does not have to many Native Americans but they still exist. And even in this article I read it showed that black people escaped America and went to England. And I can't imagine the land that brought slaves to America would not have any slaves in their own land.

http://www.lib.rochester.edu/index.cfm?PAGE=2509

I'm a rare combination of French film buff and thug.

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The history of mid-19th century England with regard to its population has been marvelously documented in this thread -- people just refuse to process itLiverpool, where Heathcliff, was a port town where many blacks from all over the world found themselves, many having worked on the ships to survive. Heathcliff was in all likelihood of mixed race, given the circumstantial evidence in the book, so he would have been regarded as an outcast and unacceptable. And his mysterious heritage, especially the cruelty he suffered because of it, tormented him until he died.

I can't believe that the people who insist that Heathcliff is more authentic as Lawrence Olivier or Timothy Dalton have read the book closely--or, in fact, have read the works of both Charlotte and Emily closely at all. These women wrote about a mean world and often broached taboo topics for their times. Neither were into romantic fantasy.

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It always strikes me as at least slightly arrogant when someone uses the argument against me that my disagreement means I "must not have read" or must not be familiar with the subject of our disagreement. Honest people of intelligence can legitimately disagree without necessarily being ignorant of the point of disagreement. I am not one of "the people who insist that Heathcliff is more authentic as Lawrence Olivier or Timothy Dalton." I have at no time said Heathcliff couldn't have very dark skin, only that--to my mind--he is not of African descent. I think there is enough doubt about what Bronte intended to make my position as legitimate as any other.


"The value of an idea has nothing to do with the honesty of the man expressing it."--Oscar Wilde

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Well, that's just it. You are relying on "doubt" and lack of explicitness to support your point of view. Others, on the other hand, are citing evidence from the novel, facts about the times, trending ideas from both sisters, etc. to back up the point of view that Heathcliff, most likely of mixed race, would have been regarded as black by the people of the times. Both Britain and America were viciously racist during this period. Mixed race children were not accepted in white society--they were black, no matter their country of origin (a view that persists to this day). Which is why Howson's casting as Heathcliff is actually more authentic casting than that of a white actor because the color of his skin shows why Heathcliff was so cruelly treated and why he grew into an evil monster living his life among people who demeaned him. By casting white actors as Heathcliff, you must actually distort the story of Wuthering Heights, narrow the bevy of reasons that explain Heathcliff as the ogre he grows to be, by inferring other, more benign, reasons for Heathcliff's grotesque personality--or, as most Hollywood productions have done, leave out the ugliness of the time and person altogether and inflate the love fantasy.

Africa is a huge continent. One or both of Heathcliff's parents could have come from Egypt or Libya, Sudan, Algeria, even Ethiopia--all are countries along the coast of North Africa. Yes, he could have come from India as well or even countries along the west coast of Africa. The point is, it doesn't make any difference ultimately because he would have been treated as black no matter what his country of origin since the Brits at that time regarded and treated all non-white people of color the same way -- black.

If Heathcliff had looked like Lawrence Olivier, he wouldn't have been Heathcliff. He would have been treated better and grown into a healthy, happy dude.

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Everything you say is precisely why I have not objected to "black" while objecting to "African." Really, none of us is sure. I'm tired of answering points other people think I've made but which I clearly have not. You go on with your discussion. I'm quite through, thank you.


"The value of an idea has nothing to do with the honesty of the man expressing it."--Oscar Wilde

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Yes. Exactly. And you aare correct about the writing. Upon reading WH i did not see it as romantic. It came off as dark, twisted, tragic.

I'm a rare combination of French film buff and thug.

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This is stupid.

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