If God exists, does he love us?

BOBDIGITAL18: "However to make what could be a very long post short i will just end with saying i agree with the philosopher who said "god can not be all powerful and all loving" He could only be one of the 2."

Yes, many agree with that classic statement. But, of course, it assumes some things which we cannot necessarily assume. In particular, it assumes our own definition of being "loving" is the ultimate definition with which God must comply. But in fact, the Bible says that God's ways are not those of humans. God doesn't have to comply with human judgments. God is God, according to the Bible. Yes, to humans it would seem that love must manifest itself in particular ways. But what if God's love involves higher purposes or aspects which we do not understand? (And whether we are disgusted by that possibility or not, it would seem to comply with what the Bible says about God's ways.)

Because I'm not God, any example I might propose on this topic will be inadequate. Nevertheless, I will at least make one observation: When my son was very young, he did not consider my discipline of him "loving". I'm sure he considered it the opposite. Yet, when he got older, he not only understood it, he applied similar discipline to his own child. My only point here is this: we in our finite minds may ASSUME that God cannot be both all powerful and all loving -- but it is nothing unusual for one being to be perplexed by the behavior of an older/wiser/more-mature/whatever being. If that simple truth can be illustrated by comparing a child with an adult, could it not also apply to a human to his/her Creator? Indeed, even by definition alone, a Creator God would be far wiser/higher/greater than any human who he created. So is it so hard to believe that simply by definition, it is likely that God would "conceptualize" love and power in ways quite different from those of humans?

Most every physics book tells us that light can be described as a particle and as a wave. But surely a particle and a wave cannot BOTH be accurate descriptions of what we call light! They seem opposite and "counter-intuitive" in most every way. Yet, I believe physicists when they tell me (and demonstrate by various experiments) that the same light beam can be described in terms of either. I accept it even though I admit that the statement sounds extremely unlikely and even incongruous.

Frankly, I personally have more difficulties harmonizing the particle/wave duality of light than I do the omnipotent/all-loving duality of God. But I doubt I could do much to convince most of you otherwise. And because it is 1 a.m. and I'm tired, I won't even try. Amen.

"Also if god did exist whether you count the scriptures or not he could not love us. That would be impossible.

If God loved us he would do all he could to stop our pain in this life or just send us to heaven immediately after he created us."

THat might be what YOU would do. Are you perfectly loving? If not, then why would you consider yourself the standard by which God should be judged. Is the love of humanity the love of God? We might have this idea of what love is. But perhaps our notion of love is not entirely accurate.

Also, do parents sometimes punish/discipline their children? Even if they do not spank, they probably do something that is unpleasant (like grounding). Children rarely say, "Thank you so much for loving me!" when their parents discipline. They, more likely, scowl and sulk. Then, of course, when they are parents they end up doing the same thing. Also, would God be good if he simply swept bad deeds under the carpet and pretended that they didn't exist? What about justice?

God might be loving. But it not just loving. He is also a just God. I think you expect a "loving God" to be some kind of cosmic Santa Claus.

"God could do several things that would cut down on suffering in the world and not interfere with free will."

He does. But pain also has a purpose. If you put your hand on a stove and feel pain, the pain is good. It is a warning, and it is your body's way of telling you to remove your hand from the stove. Pain is sometimes very healthy.

Also, if there is a hell, God would NOT be loving to make people all comfortable on earth. That would simply lull people into a false sense of security. A loving God would WARN. If there is a hell/judgment for wickedness, nobody will be able to say to God, "I didn't know you were angry. If I'd known, I would have repented." He has made is wrath very plain and revealed it for people to see (Romans 1:18).

"Even god coming down and telling us what he wants us to do in the end would not interfere with our free will (we would still have a choice... and also who says god should give us free will in the first place?)"

Okay, this is what is known as hubris. The clay telling the potter "Why did you make me like this?" The potter has the right to take a piece of clay and make it however he/she wishes.

"However to make what could be a very long post short i will just end with saying i agree with the philosopher who said "god can not be all powerful and all loving" He could only be one of the 2."

I understand that difficulty of this argument, and it's been something people have wrestled with for a long time. If I was Jewish, I would probably believe God is not good. But I am a Christian. And if the Christian belief is true, then I think it is very easy for God to be all-powerful and loving. After all, salvation is a FREE GIFT. You don't have to earn it. In fact, God did all the hard work (Christ's agonizing death on the Cross--and Christ's perfect sinless life). We don't have to be sinless. Christ did it for us. Also, God has made it clear what kind of life would be a blessed life. The reason there is misery on earth is because people prefer not to repent. It's like Satan said in the epic Paradise Lost "Better to reign in Hell, then serve in Heaven." People would rather live their own little "hell" of a life rather than submit to God and find peace and joy. You find a Christian who lives 100% for God, and you will find somebody who has peace and joy and loves his/her life. It's that simple. You want to love life? Repent and submit to God. You don't have to. You can refuse God, he will let you.

C.S. Lewis in "The Great Divorce" has a character who says there are only two kinds of people. There are those who say to God "Thy will be done." And those God eventually says to them, "Thy will be done." God simply gives people what they demand. People go to hell, strangely and ironically enough, because they demand it. People who go to hell couldn't go to Heaven even if they wanted to. They would not like it. THey don't like Heaven while they are on earth. They don't enjoy holiness. They don't find church interesting. It's boring and stupid and a big waste of time. They do not have an appetite for heaven--they could not enjoy it even if they were there. People develop a taste for hell. Very strange, but that is the way it is. And people would demand to have their own way get the ultimate judgment--they get their own way! God leaves them to themeselves.

All goodness comes from God. IF God is removed from a situation, goodness goes out with him. If you remove a light from a room, darkness is left behind. If you remove heat from a room. Coldness is left behind. You cannot expect a room to not be dark if the light is taken out. SImilarly, if people demand God not be a part of their life, then God will eventually acquiesce and give people what they demand, and he will remove his presence more and more from their life, and what comes from God will go out with him. Hell will be complete and total separation from God. How awful that is cannot be imagined. It would be complete and perfect absense of anything good. It cannot be imagined, because as bad as this life is, and as evil as one is, one receives many, many blessings. Sight is a blessing. Most people would not sell their eyes for millions of dollars, and so that makes every person with the ability to see a kind of "millionaire." The ability to hear beautiful music. A blessing. People are so blind to the blessings they have. The pain and suffering is there to remind you that it will not last forever. IT comes from God, and if you demand your life have the absense of God, eventually you will get what you have asked. It's a dreadful reality.

In Greek tragedies, usually a character that had a terrible destiny would often try to resist that destiny (Oedipus the King). WHat was ironic is that the character would, in trying to escape that destiny, bring it to pass by their actions they took to try and escape. A rather sober and frightening though. But people build their own hells. If a person's life has anything "hellish" about it (and most people have their own little hells on earth too--tiny in comparison to the actual one, but a glimpse of hell nonetheless) then that ought to be a warning just like a hand on a hot stove. Change thy ways is what the pain is saying! As for pain that one does not bring on him/herself, that is also a warning from God, that he is angry and that there is a judgment to come. If God did not warn, then that would be unloving.

Also, God is just. If GOd was not merciful and not loving every single person on earth would instantly be plunged into the hell that their rebellion against God deserves. The intense suffering the Jews endured during the holocause was far less than their sins deserved. If a person could see their own sins as they really are, with perfect accuracy, that person would realize that suffering in a concentration camp is a mercy from God, because it is far less that one deserves. Waking up on earth and not in hell is God's mercy. Nobody should demand another day from God, anymore than a beggar should demand a hundred dollars from a man who gives him twenty. Receiving anything is a mercy. And God (as I've made clear above) has given people blessings that are nearly priceless. People do not see God loving them because they are blind. They see themselves as good and deserving of Heaven. Till people see themselves for how they realy are, they will never perceive the love of God. Jesus said that a man who has been forgiven much, loves much, and a man who has been forgiven little loves little. He wasn't really saying that some people have only sinned a little and need a little bit of forgviness. He was saying that some people are blind to most of their sin and so when God forgives them they don't feel much love for God because they don't see the full debt that was forgiven. Whereas, the man who was forgiven much realizes just how much he was forgiven and is thus able to love God a lot for cancelling so great a debt.

"Also even if god was loving and not all powerful we could expect him to use his no doubt great power to do what he could for us. Just like any parent would want to give their child all the advantages in the world to have a happy life i think it is only fair we hold god to at least this same standing if we want to call him loving."

In James it says, "Ye do not have because ye do not ask." People do not turn to God. Instead, they rebel against God and try to handle life on their own, and they refuse to submit to God, but decide to set and live by their own rules. In doing so, they are asking GOd to stay out of their lives. How can God bless somebody and remove himself from a person's life at the same time. That cannot happen. All good comes from God. The removal of God's presence from a person's life has consequences.

Also, the amount of pain and suffering is never sadistic. God punishes people far less than they deserve. Pain that serves to discipline and warn, he never pushes it beyond what is best for the person. He is not sadistic, and he delights not in the death and suffering of anybody.

THe way is open. Any person on this planet can have Heaven instantly. They simply need accept it. It's bought and paid for by Jesus. They need not do a single good deed to earn it (they couldn't if they tried). It is a free gift that simply need to accepted. There is no barrier to it that need be overcome but one's willingness to accept it. People don't get the blessed life of this life, and the eternal life of the next, for one simple reason: they don't want it. Every sin is a refusal of Heaven and the blessed life. It's saying, "I prefer this (hell). Because here, at least I am boss of my life."

I see it clear as the freshest water. People sin and suffer the consequences. God puts up with it over and over and over. They could do something different and be blessed, and on some level they know they would be blessed if they did it, but they choose not to, because...well, because they don't want to.

It really comes down to, Do I want to reign (be in control of my life) my own personal hell? Or, do I want to serve in Heaven." God did not make us to be out own little gods. He made us to serve him. We find peace in life, not through toys and good health and things like that (what most people think will bring them happiness), but by doing what we were made to do, which is serve God. When we surrender our rebellion against God--it is like a city that has long resisted the rightful King and open the doors and lets the King come in and reign--a blessed life is the result.

I suppose people find their own lives not too unpleasant. "This is bearable," they may say. "If this is my own personal hell, then I'll take it. I don't mind it, and I get to be boss. I'm not suffering too much. Perhaps life could be better if I submitted, but I like being independent and doing things my way."

You see the situation here? On the one hand, if God gives people too much suffering, it would be sadistic. If he doesn't allow enough, they would be complacent. God wants people to know that there is wrath to come. He doesn't want to be sadistic and torture people. He doesn't want their to be meaningless suffering. But he also wants people to not get comfortable with a life that has a horrible destination if it is persisted in till the end. He wants people to see that sin produces death and suffering and "hell." How can he do this if he makes people's lives blissful? That would be a wicked deception, like a mirage in a desert--you toward it thinking there is water there only to die in a hot desert. God doesn't want to lull people to thinking good is ahead if there is death and fire ahead. Some of the pain and suffering people endure is, sometimes, a glimpse of the hell ahead. Do we want God to give us mirages to give us false hope of some glorious future? That would be deceptive, and thus evil. God does not give people mirages. He shows beautiful things in the world to give people a glimpse of the glories and beauty of Heaven. He lets people experience pleasure to know there is pleasure to be had. But he also lets people suffer, and he chastens people, to let people knoow there is also wrath and judgment to come. The suffering God inflicts on men, or simply allows, is never ever sadistic.

Of course, the intellectual knowledge of suffering doesn't make it much easier. Job wrestled with his intense suffering--read the book of Job. And he was a righteous man. Ultimately, it's impossible to know all the reasons behind everything that happens, including some of the suffering we endure. Is it best and brave to decide to raise a fist at God in defiance? I don't think so. Perhaps some who believe in God think it is courageous to do so. I would disagree.