MovieChat Forums > Etz Limon (2008) Discussion > Could this film be more overblown dramat...

Could this film be more overblown dramatic and one sided ?

posted 15 years ago by naheis
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Could this film be more overblown dramatic and one sided ? Figure it out, in this country we use eminent domain to force people out of their homes to build roads, schools and even commercial properties if the municipality believes that a strip mall will generate more tax revenue than existing homes. Also do you think the Feds or the Secret Service would act any differently if property adjacent to the Bush ranch in Crawford Texas or Cheney’s home posed a surveillance or security problem? Also tell me where else in the entire Middle East would a person with a grievance against the government have access to courts, due process, compensation for appropriated property and a free press to air grievances against the government. Do you think that Assad in Syria or the Palestinian Authority, for that matter, would offer compensation, allow any public grievance or allow access to any due process? An entire neighborhood of homes near where I live was condemned, the owners forced to sell, weather they liked it or not, and the homes, torn down so that the city could build its tax base with a strip mall. So please spare me the poor downtrodden grim Palestinian widow. To make this into some kind of dramatic David and Goliath story rather than the kind of ordinary unfortunate event that occurs regularly in this country and every Democracy is bogus and intellectually dishonest. There are legitimate issues regarding Israeli/ Palestinian relations but this is not one of them and this grim old lady should just take the money and get over it already-it could happen to you or me any day right here in the U.S

[–] 15 years ago

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[–] naheis 15 years ago

so because you have no substantive reply the best you can do is characterize the post as a rant.

[–] 15 years ago

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[–] 15 years ago

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[–] TemporaryOne-1 15 years ago

Practically all modern Israeli films that are available in the West are heavily critical of Israel, anti-Israel, anti-Judaism, and even antisemitic.

Etz Limon is one of the most balanced and lightly-crafted critical films that has been released by Israeli directors in years.

It calmly invites discussion.

If you want dramatic and heavy-handed, if you want to experience Israeli films that unleash the anti-Israel and/or anti-Judaism onslaught, watch Arna's Children, Blood Relation, Bil'in Habibti, Ha-Buah, Kadosh, Free Zone, Waltz With Bashir, Adama Meshuga'at. Or try Munich for grandiose and overblown (but a masterpiece and a mandatory film for people emotionally invested in the Israel/Arab/Palestinian issue).

Nothing about this film is antisemitic (I know - you never said it was) or anti-Israel or overblown or exaggerated.

[–] naheis 15 years ago

Your post is thoughtful and well informed in terms of your comments re other films and Israeli security concerns.

[–] scacci 15 years ago

Yes his/her post was, and naheis you are correct in saying that similar issues of eminent domain can occur anywhere, but that is not what this film is about. It is a film, like Temporary said, to spark discussion about the Palestinian/Israeli question as well as telling the story of a strong woman up against seemingly impossible odds. And I am sure that there have been a number of films dealing with eminent domain in the US as well. It's an excellent film (regardless of its politics) and to criticize it for the reasons you brought up seems rather ridiculous and petty.

[–] naheis 15 years ago

It seems to me that many people less thoughtful than those who have responded to this thread may see not as a vehicle to spark dicussion but as a portayal of heavy handed Israeis and victimized Palestinians. I think it was worth pointing out that this should be seen in a broader context of how we could all be in simalar situation and that the elderly widow was afforded the liberty to contest government actions and speak freely in a way we all would expect and demand from our own government. Also, as an aside I wonder if she fought as hard as she did not only because of her connection to the grove but because the neighborhood strong man forbade her from accepting a cash settlement from the Israelis so in that way her access to a proper remedy was compromised by her neighbor not the Israelis.

[–] rack_focus 15 years ago

"Elderly"? If you think she is elderly, then you've got to be like...15.

Anyway, to the main post, I don't understand your point. It's not relevant because it wasn't made about the US?

[–] pamination 14 years ago

Your looking at this film from such a short sighted perspective. It is not about this one woman's struggle about a bunch of lemon trees. It is supposed to represent the entire conflict as a whole. The Isreali minister could have bought a house anywhere. Why move next to a "security risk" in the first place?(Maybe because an orchard serves as a better view than an enormous wall?..) And why treat everything as if it was a security risk? Why was there not one attempt from either parties to discuss the matter with the other before it got out of hand?

Also you comparing eminent domain in the USA to the destruction and seizures of property in the West Bank would be quite laughable were it not completely ignorant.

And really you are going to blame he neighbor for telling her not to take the compensation...

Put yourself in their shoes. Would you really have such a lack of pride as to accept the person that tore down your house or lemon orchard's money? Would you really let them try to justify such an unjust act? Why should it be your problem that he moved next to your property and that it may pose as a security risk to his house... She'll never be able to regrow such an orchard within her lifetime.

[–] JimmyCarter-1976 13 years ago

<<I think it was worth pointing out that this should be seen in a broader context of how we could all be in simalar situation and that the elderly widow was afforded the liberty to contest government actions and speak freely in a way we all would expect and demand from our own government.>>

You really feel the widow character was afforded any substantive liberty to contest government action? Yes she contested the government's position, while the government attempted to bankrupt her. In the end, she won a pyhric victory by being able to keep her grove with half of it effectively dead without any compensation for her trouble.

Some justice.

Life is not about bickering over who's skydaddy is better.

[–] wildfire160 10 years ago

I don't see why your trying to put the point over that Lemon Trees was one sided and anti-Semitic when it isn't or your argument about eminent domain...the settlements are wrong the reason for them are wrong if your arguing that in some way their right then your wrong,the conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians is a larger issue but West Bank resettlement and the treatment of the "indigenous" population is offensive ..
what will they do when the last piece of Palestinian land is taken put the people in camps..
shalom

"Nee ta ma duh tyen-shia suo-yo duh run doh gai si"

[–] Straight_Pride 12 years ago

One sided?

There is only one right side to the Israel/Palestine thing.

Fortunately this film falls on the right side of it.

[–] remembervhs 11 years ago

Anyone who can't see at least two sides to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is A. ignorant or B. stupid

[–] blue-3 15 years ago

TemporaryOne-1 on Sun Jun 21 2009 16:31:01 wrote:

...
This film is really about how deeply troubled Israelis are about protecting themselves, their deep-rooted fears of being attacked, their deep-rooted need for constant vigilance. The fear is deeply rooted in the fabric of their beings.

True as that might be, I think it serves only as a background to a story with a strange sense of irony (or even black humour). There was something strangely comedic that a government minister would choose to set up house right against that boundary with 'the enemy'. That has to be artistic license. There's no mention of moving to a place a couple of hundred metres from the border where it's probably better environment anyway. Other Israelis might not have had such an option, but surely a government minister would have. If the issue was as serious as is made out to be, that option must have at least entered the discussion.

The irony at the end where after half the trees have been ruined (a 30cm lemon tree is useless) we see the 8 metre wall that overcomes the problem which meant the action was not necessary after all. Is this just a propaganda story to justify building such an abomination? I don't think so. It's more a much ado about nothing sort of story. A large proportion of the great American humourists are Jewish. Irony can work rather well.

[–] Buff70 10 years ago

Similar movies to add to that list ... see also:

The Attack
Ajami

[–] TemporaryOne-1 10 years ago

Ajama is an excellent movie (I posted heavily on that board too, when the movie was released), and thank you for the recommendation for The Attack.

Excellent brilliant hard-hitting challenging films about the Israel/Arab conflict, nearly all of them written and/or directed by Israeli Jews, and duly note my descriptions are meant to be funny/ironic/eye-opening/food-for-thought, not "anti-Jew/antisemitic/anti-Israel" (I'm Jewish.....)

5 Broken Cameras (2011) - co-directed byIsraeli Jew and Palestinian Arab: Israel and Jewish Settlers destroying ancient biblical landscape and murdering those indigenous to landscape

He'arat Shulayim (2011) - Traditional Jewish thought and Modern Jewish thought and Conservative Jewishism and Liberal Jewishism destroying Israel-Judaism-JewishCulture-Jews, directed by Israeli Pro-Zionist Pro-IDF Jew

Zaytoun (2012) - Israeli Jewish director (also citizen of US and Canada), served in IDF: Israel and Lebanon destroying Palestinians

Free Zone (2005) - Israel destroys American Jewish women, Israeli Jewish women, Israeli Arab women, directed by Israeli Jew

Slingshot Hip Hop (2008) - Palestinians rap their way around the ramshackled ruined rubble of Gaza and the West Bank and the modern police-state of Israel, pouring all their anger into one of the most powerful unifying weapons in the world - music

Hofshat Kaits (2007) - Haredi Judaism destroying Jews, directed by Israeli Haredi Jew

Einaym Pkuhot (2009) - Haredi Judaism destroying Jews, directed by Israeli Jew

Lemale Et Ha'Halal (2012) - Ultra-Orthodox Hasidic Israeli Jewish director critical of Ultra-Orthodox Hasidism

Kadosh (1999) - Haredi Judaism destroying Jews, directed by Israeli Jew

Lebanon (2009) - Israeli war machine destroying Jews, directed by Israeli Pro-Zionist Pro-IDF Jew

Jaffa (2009) - Romeo & Juliet set in Jaffa, blue-collar Israeli Jews treating blue-collar Israeli Arabs as second-class trash, Jews willing to destroy Jewish daughter and granddaughter in the process, directed by Israeli Jew

Disengagement (2007) - Israel destroys Palestinian diaspora and Jewish diaspora and ultra-Orthodox Jews, directed by Israeli Jew

Budrus (2009) - Israelis destroying West Bank

Beaufort (2007) - Israeli war machine destroying Jews, directed by Israeli-American Jew

Arna's Children (2003) - Israelis destroying West Bank, directed by Israeli-Arab part-Jew/part-Christian who was also a major Israeli-Arab actor who was also murdered by an Islamic Palestinian this past April. Arna's voice is like fingernails on chalkboard, all she does is screech at the top of her lungs, but Arna's Children is mandatory viewing

Blood Relation (2009) - Israelis admitting they destroyed Arabs, directed by Israeli Jew

Bil'in Habibti (2006) - Israelis destroying West Bank, directed by Israeli Jew

Jenin, Jenin (2002) - Israelis destroying West Bank, beware this one, seems very scripted, but worth it for the backdrop

Death In Gaza (2004) - Israelis destroying Gaza

Japan Japan (2007) - Israel is a Westernized slum depraved exploitative empty nation, directed by Israeli Jew

Saturn Returns (2009) - Israel is a Westernized slum depraved exploitative empty nation, directed by Israeli Jew

Ha-Buah (2006) - Israel is a Westernized slum depraved exploitative empty nation, directed by Israeli Jew

Massa'ot James Be'eretz Hakodesh (2003) - Israel is a Westernized slum depraved exploitative empty nation, directed by Israeli Jew

Adama Meshuga'at (2006) - Settlers are mentally ill abusive animals, directed by Israeli Jew raised in Settlement

Hatuna Meuheret (Late Marriage) (2001) - Israeli Jews destroying Israeli Jews

Karov La Bayit (2005) - Israel destroys Israeli Jewish women, directed by Israeli Jew

Etz Limon (2008) - Israel destroys Arab woman, directed by Israeli Jew [also citizen of US and Canada] who served in IDF

Aviva Ahuvati (2006) - low-income working class Israeli Jews; Arab plagiarising Jewish writer (Jewry "plagiarising" (stealing) Arab land), heavy metaphor for both sides stealing each other's history, culture, land, religion; Israeli Jewis director

Atash (2004) - Israeli-Palestinian film, Israel destroying Palestinians who in turn destroy themselves, their destruction is a result of off-screen-but-visually-dominant Israeli handiwork and on-screen Arabic cultural norms

Milh Hadha Al-Bahr (2008) - Palestinian standing in home her grandfather built, now owned by Jews - This is my house. It was stolen from my family. It is for me to decide if you can stay. And you can't stay. Movie a bit cheesy but that scene made the price of the film worth it

Vals Im Bashir (2008) - trashing the Israeli war machine; directed by former IDF'r, Israeli Jew

Zihron Devarim (1995) - trashing the entirety of the historicity of Judaism Israelism while also trashing the entirety of "cafeteria" Jews and Jewish secularism and Jewish liberalhoodism

[–] Buff70 10 years ago

That is great. Thank you so much for taking the time.
My local Library might be able to get some of these DVDs through Interlibrary Loans. I can also find used ones on Amazon.

[–] TemporaryOne-1 10 years ago

A few more I intentionally omitted but are extremely important and brilliant and challenging films told from the Arab/Palestinian point of view but are balanced and do not resort to "evil Zionist yada yada yada" argot:

Paradise Now (2005)
Miral (2010)
Inch'Allah (2012)
The Time That Remains (2009)

[–] Buff70 10 years ago

Oh thanks!

I have seen: Paradise Now , and Miral.

I will find the two others.

[–] aimee-amira-chatila 10 years ago

Do NOT compare anti-Israel with anti-Judaism or anti-semitism because Israel has absolutely NOTHING to do with Judaism, nor does being critical of a terrorist state have anything to do with anti-semitism.

[–] naheis 15 years ago

I appreciate your sentiments and your passion but in all fairness she did have access to a judicial hearing, free press, and compensation. The Israeli government is not saintly but democracies can be forced to compromise their principals when exposed to threats. The Isralis have suffered a long history of terrorism and, in all faarness that can caause the erosion of democracy and freedom. Look at the US. We interned Japanese Civilians during WWII for no good reason. We did horrific things at Guantanomo to detainees and (this goes back further) we killed millions of native people, took their land and confined them to reservations. So please don't tell me as an American what bad deeds democracies are capable of doing. But there is a difference between a deeply flawed democracy (US & Israel) and the rest of the middle east and most of the world where their would be no recourse at all, no hearings, no compensation etc. I will agree the government could have acted diferently and there is inequality but the onging threat of terror that you live with and the existential threats to the survival of Israel can lead governments to act in ways that are more pragmatic that riteous and the US, despite all our claims to the contrary, is as guilty as other states in restricting liberty in times we feel threatened.
As an aside notice that when NATO troops bomb a gasoline truck or a wedding in Afganistan it is like "oops" sorry,but if Palestines are killed in Israeli operations to stop rocket assaults it is front page news. I just think their is an anti Israel Bias in the media and in this film and that does not mean I think that your leaders deserve sainthood. We are all flawed. Jefferson had slaves and Andreew Jackson said the only good indian is a dead Indian. Also-one more thing-see if you can get the film The Siege with Denzel Washington-it depicts how we would likly responfd in the US to teror attacks. Our response after 9-11 was not far of from the film depiction. I value your perspective as an Israeli and I do live safely in a suburb in the US-granted

[–] xplosiveclassified 15 years ago

lol seems to me the only 'one sided' person is u. Illegal settlements under the UN, a widow who only has her orchard tree to survive and racist Jews...yet the Palis are the bad guys? lol

[–] naheis 15 years ago

what film did you see and what post did you read- where in the film is there refernce to any "illegal" settlement". Do any of the Palestinians refer to any "illegal" settlement". Please tell me where I said the Palestinians are "bad guys".Or do you just make the same canned arguments regardless of the film or post

[–] 15 years ago

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[–] naheis 14 years ago

A) I saw it

B) Spare me the ad hominem remarks. If you can just insult me then you don’t have to address the merit of my remarks. By overblown I mean the enormous drama about a simple property dispute. I wouldn’t like it if some one took my home for a highway project but *beep* happens

C) How do you presume to characterize name as a “nut obsessed with eminent domain”. You don’t know any thing about me so just confine your comments to the film and the merits or lack of merit to my remarks as you see it -that’s only fair

D) Again just confine your comments to what I said and what you agree or disagree with. A rant? It's just my take on the film.

Chill, gather your thoughts, address what is in the film and in my comments and please spare me the ad hominem insults. It really does not help your argument

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] nowximxnothingx 14 years ago

I disagree with whatever point you are making.

[–] badjuju_00 14 years ago

You already posted this garbage before. *beep* off, now.

[–] rlippman-2 14 years ago

Interesting. I think the movie was more subtle than over blown. I think the drama was in the silence - the fact that there was no dialog at all between the parties in interest themselves. This, to me, made this movie a very good metaphor for the situation along the Green Line, and the ending showed great sadness and loss on both sides. In that sense, I didn't see it as one sided at all.

In another sense, a political one, it also tried to be balanced in as much as the film showed the legal avenues available, did not neglect to mention "compensation" (although we never hear what the offer was and clearly money alone will not replace what is at stake), the lawyer for the army is heard making his case, the Supreme Court attempts some kind of compromise, the Israeli free press is shown investigating and openly criticizing, a suicide bomb goes off in the middle of the party - reminding us that none of this is happening in a vacuum and giving credence to Israeli fears driving such harsh policies, we see that not all Jews are of one mind, nor are the Palestinians necessarily working together for their long term best interests. In that sense, no character in this movie was an absolute saint or inherently evil (although the Defense Minister did come off as a prick and Salma is stuck between a rock and a hard place through no fault of her own).

Again, the tragedy this film portrays is very real and I don't think the movie is overblown in how it shows it, but the movie is about a lot more than the loss of an orchard. The fact that you see the security situation as "an ordinary unfortunate event that occurs regularly" and miss the value of human story, to me, is very sad.

[–] naheis 14 years ago

thanks. Your remarks are reasonable, thoughtful & balnced

[–] treebeardman 14 years ago

I think something is missing here. I suspect we were meant to see this neighbour dispute as being a metaphor for the I/P conflict. If they cant live next to each other in peace, then can the country have peace.

I thought of a solution for this. The Israeli minister could rent the lemon grove from the widow while they live there, she wont have acess but will have an income. They get a safety barrier and some nice lemons. In the long term she will get her grove back when they leave.

I dont think this solution will sort out all of Israels problems though.

The film was nicely done, showed both sides as human. Many of the characters were all too humsn, the cheating husband, the corrupt/misogynist Palestianian politician. The cheating lawyer. The confused wife, well meaning but just makes it worse. Only the widow, her elderly employee and the guard 'quick' (who seems to have a a very long shift) are good people.

[–] jrogersdal 14 years ago

I enjoyed this movie. It was very thought provoking. I think it was very well made and acted. I also agree that the silence in the movie was very powerful.

Also, to those that complained that the orchard need not have ben lost, since the wall was erected. From a pure security perspective, building a wall without clear fields of fire is just dooming it to failure.

[–] cpuller-642-329716 13 years ago

The dumbest thing was that the vice minister buys a new house exactly next to the border.

You could snipe him or launch a rocket from a few hundred meters behind the lemon yard.

But I know its just a movie

@ threadstarter: In the US houses dont cost a life's savings and it is also not ok to force people to sell their houses for a mall.
Make a film about it and I dont complain.

[–] naheis 13 years ago

In the US houses dont cost a life's savings and it is also not ok to force people to sell their houses for a mall.

Yes. Condemnation of property to build commercial property to build the tax base has been held to be a legitimate public purpose by the courts and she was compensated (or would have been if the town strongman would have allowed her to take the $). She also had access to courts. It sucks to lose your house but its more about that then a political theme. It could happpen unfortunatly to any of us. I agree why choose to build there