MovieChat Forums > Freakonomics (2010) Discussion > Film claims abortion/crime link 'unimpea...

Film claims abortion/crime link 'unimpeached'


I've watched half of the film (yawn). It's pretty boring. If you've read the books, you know what's here. There's really no need for a film.

What irks me is the absurd claim that Leavitt's theory that abortion lowers crime rates is "unimpeachable" to this day, when, in fact, it's been impeached by experts in various fields.

The Wall Street Journal ran a story at the time where a couple of economists pretty much blew his theory apart/.
http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB113314261192407815-7O0CuSR0RArhWpc9pxaKd_paZU0_20051228.html?mod=tff_article

Leavitt admits to making errors in this chapter, based on the WSJ piece but denies the theory is debunked.
http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2005/11/28/everything-in-freakonomics-is-wrong/

The Economist ran a different story where they attacked the theory
DEC 3, 2005-
http://www.economist.com/node/5246700?story_id=5246700 (you must be a member to access the article). I just accessed it via lexis nexis and this is some of what they reported:
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"Messrs Donohue and Levitt claim to control for such effects in the final test of their paper. That exercise is meant to facilitate comparisons such as: did arrests of 20-year-olds in New York in 1992 diverge from those of 18-year olds in the same state and year? This automatically takes account of anything going on in the Empire state that year (such as a crack epidemic) that would have affected 18-year-olds and 20-year-olds alike. The principal difference between the two age groups is that one was born after the Supreme Court legalised abortion and the other before.

It was a good test to attempt. But Messrs Foote and Goetz have inspected the authors' computer code and found the controls missing. In other words, Messrs Donohue and Levitt did not run the test they thought they had—an "inadvertent but serious computer programming error", according to Messrs Foote and Goetz
Fixing that error reduces the effect of abortion on arrests by about half, using the original data, and two-thirds using updated numbers. But there is more. In their flawed test, Messrs Donohue and Levitt seek to explain arrest totals (eg, the 465 Alabamans of 18 years of age arrested for violent crime in 1989), not arrest rates per head (ie, 6.6 arrests per 100,000). This is unsatisfactory, because a smaller cohort will obviously commit fewer crimes in total. Messrs Foote and Goetz, by contrast, look at arrest rates, using passable population estimates based on data from the Census Bureau, and discover that the impact of abortion on arrest rates disappears entirely. "I am simply not convinced that there is a link between abortion and crime," Mr Foote says."
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So, Leavitt's claim that abortion accounts for half of the crime drop is, at best, halved to 25% of the cause, and at worst it's blown to bits completely and had little to no effect on crime rates.

Besides- in the movie (I think the stats match the book, but it's been a while), he claims that new policing strategies account for ZERO % in the drop in crime. That's absurd in too many ways to count without ANY data. His argument is that crime was dropping BEFORE the new policing strategies were put into place...but that doesn't necessarily mean it had NO effect on crime. Maybe crime started to drop right before the new policing strategies, so that these new strategies only cut crime by 40% instead of the 50% claimed for abortion? It's a lazy claim to make period...policing had absolutely no effect on crime rates because the rates started to lower before they were enacted. There's just no way to possibly make that argument.

So, that irks me. Of course his theory is impeachable, and the movie makes no mention of the several studies done to debunk his theory. If they can't even get that fact straight, what else in the film is inaccurate?

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[deleted]

I don't see how the "abortion effect" is debunked at all. Levitt made an error with regards to ONE piece of evidence of FIVE separate pieces of evidence supporting the "abortion effect", Levitt then corrected accordingly and found that the theory as a whole still stands up.

Examining a part of Levitt's research and encountering an error, that does NOT dismiss the theory as a whole, is hardly whats understood by "debunking", besides the data from Canada, Australia and Romania isn't affected by Levitt's error, nor is it even mentioned in the criticism.

Having just finished the book I have to comment on the policing strategies. What Levitt found, was that despite conventional wisdom (as he refers to several times throughout the book) policing STRATEGIES did not contribute to the drop in crime, at the same time he concludes, that the 45% increase in the NY police force DID contribute to the drop in crime, so policing in general absolutely seems to have an effect, according to Levitt.
The policing strategies mentioned in the book were enacted in New York City, but the drop in crime was a national trend, it was not limited to New York, Levitt simply claims that there was nothing in the data, suggesting that policing STRATEGIES had any effect on the crime rate at all.

Levitt and his work is obviously not perfect, but that certainly doesn't mean that any of his work has been "debunked".

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What's the matter? The idea of something good comming out of abortion is too much for your Hillbilly Christian Mind?

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Only Hillbilly Christians point out logical fallacies and cite experts?

Did you really mean to come off sounding that stupid?

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I think the abortion=lower crime theory makes a lot of sense, but he needs to broaden the study with countries with abortion and those without. And also he needs to look into the use of RU-486.

I didn't read the book, so I'm basing this on the movie, we are on a movie forum after all.

I mean just look around, the countries that don't support abortion due to cultural/religious beliefs against it have the worst crime and worst economy.

Well this is based on my observation, I would like to see him pull up the international data.


http://hemestate.blogspot.com/

-things I write on IMDB may come from my blog

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If you include other countries, you include different cultures, which simply adds further variables to the discussion. There's no absolute method to determine what the aborted fetuses would have done with their life -- all we can do is look at the type of women that seeked out legal abortions in the 70s and use statistics for what children of similar mothers accomplished (who were obviously not aborted).

In the end, I think the correlation is obvious once you present it. It's not to state that abortion is "good," only that it can have positive effects on the greater good of society.

Not only is it possible, it is essential
http://paulopicks.blogspot.com/

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50% may well be too high of a figure but even it is 1/10th of that then the benefits to society are huge and, in all likelihood, it is well over 25%. Crime went down despite the US economy continuing to be horrible. And it continued to drop.

Just look at the demographics of those who have abortions. Social Conservatives often wish to paint the picture that it is merely selfish middle-class people who want to continue living their lives uninterrupted. However, that is absolutely not the case. The people who have abortions aren't in a good position economically, don't have a stable home life, and most of the time they don't have a partner. And that's assuming that the woman is even of a reasonable age and education level to raise a child.

If you take away millions of children that won't be well-cared for, of course the crime rate is going to drop.

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I guess pro-lifers would rather have the high crime rate. Stupid bible thumpers. Too bad the OP wasn't aborted.

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I think the fact that the OP is evidently a paying member of The Economist online magazine says everything we need to know...

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Speaking of stupid, only a tool with a willful ignorance of the scientific method would examine two trends, assume a cause-and-effect relationship, and then ignore all other factors.

Also, only an idiot would automatically assume that anyone who opposed abortion was a "Bible thumper," as you so in-eloquently put it.

Geez...it must suck having more hate than brains in your head.

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[deleted]

This got me to thinking..

If Crime dropped in the 1990's due to the roe vs Wade case in 1973 near 18 years after abortion was legalised.

Couldnt one argue that the curretn economic crisis is due to the Ro vs Wade + another 18 years ...

So the same person would be 36 yrs old as the GFC began.

That is the same age of someone 1/2 way thru there mortage.

now take that back 10 years... you get a 26 year old..firts home buyers id say prime age, around 1998..

Now in light of the mortage crisis in the US...ie: lending money out nilly willy to those that normally wouldnt get one, poorer etc....

So, what i am saying is the unborn who would be taking out loans in 1999 -2004 are not there because of legalised abortion so a search for new borrowers begin "cheap loans to the lower class"

Prehaps the answer is that there was not enough people to lend money out to that would have been born rather than aborted.

and it is not because the numbers are smaller, it is because the expenditial dosnt grow, yet the increase in the money pooldoes so do prospective profit of companys.

(i wonder if abortion has seen expenditial growth at the same time?)

And as america is slighty isolantry in policy during that periodit would line up, casue they would not be taking in as many immigrants...especially under a republican like G bush i assume?

I hope if anyone reads this my idea makes sense.. it is bizarre but inlight of what they researched id love to see this researched.

Isnt econmics and stats Fun.

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wow, you have some serious flaws in your thinking. I have read the books but I'm still waiting on the movie from Netflix.

"If Crime dropped in the 1990's due to the roe vs Wade case in 1973 near 18 years after abortion was legalised.

Couldnt one argue that the curretn economic crisis is due to the Ro vs Wade + another 18 years ...


So, what i am saying is the unborn who would be taking out loans in 1999 -2004 are not there because of legalised abortion so a search for new borrowers begin "cheap loans to the lower class"

"

Your major flaw in this argument is assuming abortions have a NEGATIVE impact to loans. First, the abortions in 1973 would have reduced the number of poor in 2007, when the crash occurred. Predatory lending to poor people was one of the major causes of the crash. If there had been a bigger pool of poor people, it would have led to more bad loans. Worst case, it would have NO affect on predatory loans.

I don't know how you can assume there would be more bad loans with less poor people?

Another HUGE assumption you made was that because of abortions, we now have a smaller population and thus the banks started predatory lending because of this. In fact, our population continues to grow strong unlike most other wealthy nations because of an influx of immigrants and the fact we still have a relatively high birth rate.


Also, abortion rates have been in a steady decline since 1990. I'm guessing that's probably because of abortions in 1973 reduced the number of teenagers growing up in poor and bad households thus causing a reduction in rates right when the first 'group' would have been high school teenagers.

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I don't know how you could make an argument stating that illegalizing something that prevents unwanted pregnecies that turn a 16 year old with her enter future ahead of her into a mother or adds another mouth to feed to a family that can't afford one can do anything but improve society. Just give me an argument for it. Last time I checked, not many only children with two parents over the ages of the 30 making $250K a year grow up to rob convinience stores.

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Where are the actual abortion numbers? How many abortions per year, say from 73-76, were there in New York vs Violent crime numbers?

And what theoretical stat can be drawn as to how many aborted babies would and could actually be a success in life instead of a criminal? Surely there had to be a success rate coming out of Romania as well, no?

On that subject, surely living under a dictatorship had a lot more influence on failed/broken homes and crime with or without people being forced to have babies. I mean, that is just the tip of the iceberg.

For relaxing times, make it Suntory time.

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If you actually read the book as you claim you would know that quoting wall street journal or the economist on such cases doesnt relaly give you much credit.

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"Common sense is not so common."
- Voltaire

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