Historical howlers


In a fantasy context (which this show is, essentially), some leeway is allowable, but there were serious historical howlers in #1:

1. The Templars were not suppressed for being "too radical". They were suppressed because a) Philippe IV wanted their assets; b) they didn't want to be amalgamated with the Hospitallers. The true story is horrific and heartbreaking, involving innocent men being subjected to appalling tortures. I suggest reading Malcolm Barber's The Trial of the Templars, and Helen Nicholson's The Knights Templar: A New History.

2. It would have been pointless for any to flee to England (or indeed, Scotland), because there were arrests and trials in London (and at the Abbey of Holyrood), although not many, because there simply weren't many of them here.

3. The Templars were never linked to the Grandmont order, but originally had some links with the Cistercians. The Cistercian Bernard of Clairvaux was an early propagandist for the order.

4. It was said that they were given to "burning and killing thousands of Muslims" with the implication that these were peaceful innocents. The Templars fought Saracen armies in battle; I cannot think of any civilian massacres ascribed to them – although a few hundred of them were slaughtered when POWs after Hattin in 1187, and the Church which they had served tortured to death and burned a number of them in the early 14C. The episode fudges this, and the issue of Islamic military expansion in the Eastern Mediterranean. None of the major religions has spread peacefully, and violent imperial expansion has never been the sole prerogative of people of any one creed or skin-colour: it's dishonest to pretend otherwise for reasons of post-imperial guilt-tripping.

5. It was pointless for the Templars' assailants to dress as Turks, because the Templars were wanted men. Why dress up to attack them?

6. Friday 13th being unlucky is a modern superstition, 1880s-1900s, possibly US, and has nothing to do with the Templars.

7. Dovecotes, or doocots as we call them here in Scotland, were to provide fresh meat during the winter: castles, tower-houses, substantial farms, as well as religious houses had them. The pigeons were not symbolic, they were for roasting or putting in pies.

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[deleted]

Like most popular writing on the subject, BBC drama seems to be about 55 years behind academic scholarship on the Crusades.

Mind, even when the Beeb last did a rather weird, Templar-kicking fantasy conspiracy thriller, it had a bit more style and fun: remember The Dark Side of the Sun, 1983? A young, dinner-jacketed Peter Egan as a 700-year-old immortal with psychic powers is way cooler than a cheesy tele-evangelist and a couple of undergraduates in T-shirts.

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2. It would have been pointless for any to flee to England (or indeed, Scotland), because there were arrests and trials in London (and at the Abbey of Holyrood), although not many, because there simply weren't many of them here.


Edward II was a lot more sympathetic than Philip "the fair" of France, so it would have made sense for Templars to seek refuge in England. But Templars as asylum seekers fleeing torture and persecution wouldn't really gel with the theme of the entertainment tour de force that is S***Kickers.

I think the writers got the Friday 13th rubbish form The Da Vinci Code - which appears to have been their sole source of 'historical' research.

Standard BBC white, middle-class, guilt-ridden executive wisdom sees the Crusades as an act of unprovoked right-wing aggression against peaceable Muslims who had been living happily in the Middle East for all time. They ignore, or don't know about, the Islamic invasion of Spain, incursions into Southern France, conquest of the Holy Land and threat to Byzantium.

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Edward II was a lot more sympathetic than Philip "the fair" of France, so it would have made sense for Templars to seek refuge in England.

Oh, indeed, Edward didn't want to have to do this to them, but the Pope wanted it done, and pressured him, so there were arrests and trials. Helen Nicholson (one of the best modern historians of the Templars, along with Malcolm Barber and Anne Gilmour-Bryson) is working on the English trials
http://www.cf.ac.uk/hisar/people/hn/trial.htm. She's also written it up in a spoof of the style of a modern tabloid report:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/nigel.nicholson/hn/DailyNews/index.html

Standard BBC white, middle-class, guilt-ridden executive wisdom sees the Crusades as an act of unprovoked right-wing aggression against peaceable Muslims who had been living happily in the Middle East for all time. They ignore, or don't know about, the Islamic invasion of Spain, incursions into Southern France, conquest of the Holy Land and threat to Byzantium.

It's unfortunate none of them seem to be historians. It's not a right or left wing or religious issue (for the record, I'm a) a-religious; b) on the left; and most relevantly, c) a mediæval history graduate), but a basic ethical one. Wilfully propagating falsehoods about the past is just plain wrong, regardless of the political direction it's coming from.

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It's unfortunate none of them seem to be historians. It's not a right or left wing or religious issue (for the record, I'm a) a-religious; b) on the left; and most relevantly, c) a mediÊval history graduate), but a basic ethical one. Wilfully propagating falsehoods about the past is just plain wrong, regardless of the political direction it's coming from.


Oh I agree, I'm pretty middle of the road liberal myself and my comments about BBC executives were tongue in cheek. I just find the vogue for post-colonial self-flagellation a little amusing, and disturbing. One shouldn't view history through the prism of modern morality. From the crusaders point of view they were retaking Christian lands invaded by the Islamic empire - which was powerful and aggressively expansionist. And of course, they failed. The Ottomans conquered Christian Byzantine, much of South-eastern Europe, North Africa and the Middle East - but the Turks don't appear to have any hang-ups about their imperial past!

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It's a bloody TV show! I knew some of the historical information was a bit off when I watch it but, oh yes, it's a bloody TV show.

And never mind the historical accuracy, whoever is doing their quartermastering needs sacking. It's simply not possible to behead someone with a broadsword (no matter what films and TV may have shown you). Also, a sword blade wouldn't wobble like that whilst being sharpened, not that a broadsword would need sharpening anyway.

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I just find the vogue for post-colonial self-flagellation a little amusing, and disturbing. One shouldn't view history through the prism of modern morality.

Exactly. I'm fed up of the preachiness of history-related popular programmes and writing. And the demonisation of people who were subjected to horrific abuse (even by the standards of their time) in their own time is, frankly, disturbing. Barber's The Trial of the Templars cites some of the tortures which were used – sometimes inflicted by drunken torturers.

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See, I don't personally mind it when history is skewed slightly for drama, because I, like most of you I guess, can appreciate it is only fiction.
What worries me, though, is just how many people walk away from this thinking it to be true? How many people are going to grow up with a version of history willingly altered in the name of Political Correctness and Leftism? One day in many decades time we'll look back and find we've totally screwed up the facts just because it was wonderfully trendy to be PC once upon a time?

A caution to all historians, then: lock up copies of canonical history books in safes labelled 'Don't Open Until Everyone Realises That Nothing Is More Offensive Than Being Inoffensive'. Just to be sure.

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See, I don't personally mind it when history is skewed slightly for drama, because I, like most of you I guess, can appreciate it is only fiction.

Up to a point. But I think that, if you are going to use real incidents, groups or individuals, you have a duty to try to get things right, as far as you can. For one thing, it gives your fictional embellishments a more solid grounding.

What worries me, though, is just how many people walk away from this thinking it to be true?

Yes, this is the problem.

How many people are going to grow up with a version of history willingly altered in the name of Political Correctness and Leftism?

It's not a Left/Right issue: it's an accuracy issue. It doesn't matter what someone's politics are in the modern world, s/he shouldn't peddle lies about the past. I would describe myself as on the left, but I think it is wrong for anyone to falsify the past to fit any contemporary political agenda.

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silverwhistle

I was not meant to be a documentary so your analysis is pointless.

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As I said to begin with, some leeway is to be expected in a fantasy drama, but if you're going to stick in information about real events and groups, you should try to get it right. Some hype about the programme implied that viewers might learn a bit of history along the way. That is clearly not the case. Repeating fallacies about history is dangerous. The popular 'Templar conspiracy' narrative seems to be based on the rationale: "If they hadn't done anything dodgy, they wouldn't have been persecuted and tortured" – which is flawed logic, for starters.

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Look, be fair - at least they hadn't found the Holy Grail...

Seriously, I agree wholeheartedly with you, Silverwhistle. The moment I saw the poor old Templars turning up in the publicity material I knew we were in trouble. They're always fanatics and/or guardians of secret knowledge and/or an underground organisation still existing today. Granted, this sort of thing has been around pretty much since the trials, though realy took off in the 18th century. (Curiously, the Hospitallers were favourites at first, but had the disadvantage of still existing!)

This was an Order which Usama Ibn Munqidh, a Muslim soldier-scholar who generally shows little more than contempt for the Crusaders, counted as his friends, and who let him worship Allah in their chapel. Far from fanatics, the Templars often seem to have exercised a pragmatic, tolerant attitude towards who did not actually present a threat. Conversly, you mention Hattin - might I also add the example of Sultan Beybars, who made a habit of slaughtering prisoners of war (including Templars), sometimes after promising them their lives.

History related fiction in film and on TV is too often promoted as accurate, if not by the makers then by the reviewers (how often have I seen films like 'The Patriot' or 'Kingdom of Heaven' described as history lessons...). At best this is stupid and frustrating (the truth it frequently more interesting), at worst it can be downright dangerous. I don't think Boneknickers (as someone I know dubbed it) is going to cause revolution in the streets, but it does perpetuate myths about a highly sensitive period in history.

There. Spleen vented.

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Thanks!

Look, be fair - at least they hadn't found the Holy Grail...

You want to bet? The main heroine quotes from a Tennyson poem, Merlin & the Gleam ("I am Merlin,/Who follow the Gleam")
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/arthur/art186.htm
and is obsessed with ancient sword-hilts. I rather suspect that her mother's secret is something to with the search for the Grail/Excalibur/King Arthur…

History related fiction in film and on TV is too often promoted as accurate, if not by the makers then by the reviewers (how often have I seen films like 'The Patriot' or 'Kingdom of Heaven' described as history lessons...). At best this is stupid and frustrating (the truth it frequently more interesting), at worst it can be downright dangerous. I don't think Boneknickers (as someone I know dubbed it) is going to cause revolution in the streets, but it does perpetuate myths about a highly sensitive period in history.

Yes, and from what Dad has told me about #2 (being in Glasgow, I won't see that till Friday), it goes down this road even further. The scriptwriters need beating about the head with a copy of Simon Schama's Rough Crossings, on the role African-Americans played in the American War of Independence – mostly on the British/Loyal American side! (The hardback could do someone serious damage if wielded effectively!)

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You know, whenever I watch a popular show or pick up a popular book on the Middle Ages, I always look first for how they treat the Templars. Being a Templar historian myself, I know all the goofy stuff to look for. So if the goofies are there, I know the show or book is utter rubbish. Never fails.

4. It was said that they were given to "burning and killing thousands of Muslims" with the implication that these were peaceful innocents. The Templars fought Saracen armies in battle; I cannot think of any civilian massacres ascribed to them – although a few hundred of them were slaughtered when POWs after Hattin in 1187, and the Church which they had served tortured to death and burned a number of them in the early 14C. The episode fudges this, and the issue of Islamic military expansion in the Eastern Mediterranean. None of the major religions has spread peacefully, and violent imperial expansion has never been the sole prerogative of people of any one creed or skin-colour: it's dishonest to pretend otherwise for reasons of post-imperial guilt-tripping.


I did a PhD a couple of years ago that completely discredited this popular belief. In fact, the Templars were slightly more tolerant of both Jews and Muslims under their rule than the average lord. It was a matter of competition. In the areas in southern Europe and Palestine where there were significant populations of Muslims, both groups were highly lucrative tenants. So, lords actually fought each other over wooing and keep them.

Northern European Christian attitudes toward the Jews were much harsher, but even there, there is no evidence that the Templars were intolerant compared to the general population. But it is generally true that the Templars were much more likely to be accused by their contemporaries of "going soft" on the Muslims and being crypto-Muslims themselves, than of being intolerant of Muslims. There were anomalies, like Gerard de Ridefort, but the general inclination of the Order toward relative tolerance prevailed for the entirety of its existence. It's not like they had a choice. Intolerance would have got them driven out of Palestine by the 13th century and lost them a lot of valuable non-Christian associates in the Iberian Peninsula.

Incidentally, this idea that the Templars hated Muslims is a confusion of Templar attitudes with those of St Bernard (who talked about killing Muslims as "malicide" and made a lot of his Templar friends very uncomfortable as a result). Edward Gibbon also fostered this idea in the 18th century because he hated the Catholic Church and wanted to attack the Church via the Templars. But it is not historical fact at all.


5. It was pointless for the Templars' assailants to dress as Turks, because the Templars were wanted men. Why dress up to attack them?


In France?! Of course they didn't dress up as Turks! They dressed up as the King's men! They were on his business!

That's like saying the local cops would dress up as LA gangbangers when making a raid in Mexico.


6. Friday 13th being unlucky is a modern superstition, 1880s-1900s, possibly US, and has nothing to do with the Templars.


I'm pretty sure that it's the Templar connection that only dates to the 19th century not the actual legend about Friday the 13th. Its origins are controversial. However, scholars are pretty certain it's not connected to the Templars in any way. One major theory has it that it's actually connected to the Last Supper, where Judas made 13. In the Middle Ages, Holy Week was symbolically reenacted every week, so Friday, being the day on which Christ was crucified, might have been considered unlucky by some, and taking the number of people that were at the Last Supper would therefore be doubly so.


7. Dovecotes, or doocots as we call them here in Scotland, were to provide fresh meat during the winter: castles, tower-houses, substantial farms, as well as religious houses had them. The pigeons were not symbolic, they were for roasting or putting in pies.


Oh, this just makes me laaaaugh. The people who made this show must have had a very basic ignorance of the Middle Ages if they could look at a dovecot and not realize that it was all about housing food.


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The people who made this show must have had a very basic ignorance of the Middle Ages if they could look at a dovecot and not realize that it was all about housing food.
It's the BBC. They wouldn't want to offend any vegetarians.

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I'm gonna be really nitpicky now. Continuing with my theme of their weapons 'experts' needing sacking; they put totally the wrong sound effect on the musket's being cocked in the War of Independance scenes.

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SNOW! *Glomps*

Wondered if you'd sniff this particular steaming pile of hooey out!

Listen to this woman, folks. She's a dear, dear friend of mine and an expert on Templar History...

Kes

I warn you. I'm armed to the teeth with a deadly arsenal of crap one-liners

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There were anomalies, like Gerard de Ridefort


And even in his case it is more complicated than sheer religious fanaticism. Before joining the Order, de Ridefort's prospects were ruined by Raymond of Tripoli. Raymond had promised to de Ridefort the hand of the first heiress to become available, but then married her to the nephew of a merchant instead. The resultant grudge would influence his decisions, including his disastrous political manoueverings in the lead up to Hattin.

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Good debating there, silverwhistle.
Yes, I suppose that if your are dabbling in fiction, having the correct background knowledge not only makes the story itself richer and more satisfying, but it's less damaging to overall knowledge as a whole. I guess the writers recieved false info on the Knight's Templar, then someone one day in the future will write about the Knight's Templar with their knowledge based around that...that's how it snowballs out of control.

Also, you you quite right when you said it wasn't a left-right political agenda. I guess I explained myself quite poorly: what I meant was Political Correctness and the desire to offend as few people as possible is very much a concern of the left. It's when that desire extends to bending, skewing and dumbing down the facts that it becomes dangerous. But yes, you are right: it's not as clear cut as a left-right thing.

I'm quite worried, now: I'm writing my own novel, and I thought I'd done a good enough amount of research, but now I'm not so sure!

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I guess the writers recieved false info on the Knight's Templar, then someone one day in the future will write about the Knight's Templar with their knowledge based around that...that's how it snowballs out of control.

Yes. I've seen appalling damage done, historically, as a result of the badly researched fiction of Walter Scott. (And in his case, it wasn't simply that in his time, some of the resources we have weren't available, which is a valid enough reason: he was actually taken to task by one of the pioneering mediæval historians of his own day. And he admitted that he sometimes used fictional works of a period he was researching in preference to non-fictional ones. And so disinformation was spread.) And yet, Scott's fiction left subliminal influences on later generations of historians who had been brought up on his novels when they were kids. Whatever they learned from the sources was filtered through the preconceptions they had received from the novels.

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And yet, Scott's fiction left subliminal influences on later generations of historians who had been brought up on his novels when they were kids. Whatever they learned from the sources was filtered through the preconceptions they had received from the novels.


Tell me about it--I quake at the thought of what Dan Brown is now doing to millions of impressionable young minds. I've seen grown men's brains literally seep out their ears while reading "The DaVinci Code"--it was like something out of Doctor Who!

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Gerry was probably deluding himself if he thought it was likely he'd bag a major heiress like Cecile Dorel! It's probable this may have come up in the late 1170s when Raymond was still regent – William Dorel of Botron probably died around this time, and Gerry was certainly still in secular life in 1179, as Marshal of the Kingdom of Jerusalem. Cecile was certainly married to Plivain (Plivano) a few years later, and they still pop up in charters in the early 1200s.

Gerry must have joined the Templars c. 1180/81, apparently after a serious illness. (People often took vows on their deathbeds. If you then got better, you were stuck…) He was Seneschal of the Templars, essentially an admin post, when he was elected after the Grand Master Arnau de Torroja died while on a European tour to raise help for the kingdom. Presumably they were stuck to find a better candidate. He seems to have been a complete pain-in-the-backside, and the only person who had any time for him was the gung-ho but dim Guy de Lusignan. Indeed, the Templars got on with everyone else while Gerry was a hostage after Hattin; unfortunately, he forced them to surrender a couple of their castles to ransom him. (This in contrast to a previous Grand Master, Odo de Saint-Amand, who had refused to be ransomed and died in prison nearly a decade earlier.)

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You know, whenever I watch a popular show or pick up a popular book on the Middle Ages, I always look first for how they treat the Templars. Being a Templar historian myself, I know all the goofy stuff to look for. So if the goofies are there, I know the show or book is utter rubbish. Never fails.

Absolutely! Me too! I check out the Templars, and I check out 'my boy' (see signature for a clue…).

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You're so right, thanks for that post.. This show is so ridiculously at odds with history and reason, it might as well be taking place on a different planet and acted out by talking were-rabbits.
What's the point of making this crap up, if history offers so many weird and fascinating (and sometimes even believable!) stories, is beyond me.

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Thanks. Yes: it's one thing to use history as the jumping-off point for a fantasy, but another to distort history to fit the fantasy you have imposed upon it.

I'd rather watch an out-and-out fantasy set on another planet with a cast of were-rabbits. It could be far more entertaining!

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The other problem with the program is in the "promotion" the BBC said that there was a real archaeological expert to make sure that they had everything correct. Then right at the beginning they had a workmen hold up a coin (from 200 years earlier) and this caused the construction to be stopped. That workman would have been fired on the spot.

It is considered that Friday 13th is unlucky in western society because of the last supper. However in Spanish areas (where the Muslims were living) it is Tuesday 13th that is unlucky. Now if they really hated the Templars you would think that Friday 13th would now be considered a lucky day.

So possibly an expert who once drove past a dig, but not an historical expert on site at all. The next episode was even worse, a presidential candidate comes to Britain and is not surrounded by the press. How likely is THAT?

I know it is fiction but people actually believe that the Da Vinci code and Angels and Demons are real true facts, because they have the words in the front that it is all real. It is easy enough to check the facts so why screw it up so badly.

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I know it is fiction but people actually believe that the Da Vinci code and Angels and Demons are real true facts, because they have the words in the front that it is all real. It is easy enough to check the facts so why screw it up so badly.

Exactly. The problem is that we have a historically under-educated viewing public that swallows deliberate disinformation.

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I do think you have a point, and the same sort of Psycology shows up all over the map in Humanity. Look at the American Presidential race. Everyone is suppose to adore the godlike Obama, and ignroes the grumpy old man McCain.

The Media spotlights Obama, ignores McCain unles he critises Obama, and tries to spin him in the most posiitve light they can.


The same happens in the Entertainment industry in regards to the Knights Templer or anythign invovleing Christianity.

I know, soem of you will say I'm just saying they are Anti-CHristian, but I think the Anti-Christian bias at th BBC is well established and evident in pretty well most of their shows. Even Robin Hood omited until this tyear Friar RTck, whilst havng a Saracean woman.


I think it tracks back to the Enlightenment, though.

And thats were I am headed in this post. Please read the whoel of it, it oes talk of the Templers. Or rather, how they came to be Historis favourite Midaevel Villain.

During the Enlightenment, the most promenant idealouges shaping the movement sought to undermine Christianity in order to help get rid of it and establish their Utopia, and in orer to do this they had to demonise it. Thus they looked at History and wrote it to slnt in favour of their own views, and created what became known as the Dark Ages by cherry picking instances they coudl use and distorting the facts.

Once Christianity was demonised and blamed for the fall of the ROman Empire, and collapse of civilisaiton, and shown as an oprpesive force sprea dby brual measures that was the enemy of Liberty, Justice, and reason, it was far easier to attack it.

The Enlightenment had a profoudn ipact on the culture in Europe and America, and as a result many of their conclusions and sentiments have been absorbed, sort of ike a spirit that permates the air an infuses with the people in the culture. This culminated, over time, and with the rise of Liberal scholarhsip and Neitchean Philosophy, and Marxism, which at the time was not seen as the dire evil it is now, and Freud, you sa a culture that gradually accepted, withotu queastion, that there is something dodgy about them thar Christains and just knew that they had had a brutal past. It as common knoledge, everyone knew this.



Although the Enlightenment Era thinkers knew that they engaged in Propoganda, I don't think that the sme is true today though of those who have htis instinctive, almost visceal distrust of anythign to do with Christianity and a wariness of it. I think that it just sort of soaked intot he culture. Its a subliminal idea that has simply been accepted icne chldhood and been there hovering, like a shadow, like a ghost, in the background, and just accepted as common knoledge and never questioned. Why shoudl it be qustioned? its obviosuly true.


Of coruse anone who has studied History knows that Modern Historians do not refr to the Middle Ages as the Dark Ages, and in fact the term is no longer in use at all. When it was in use it refered only to the priod between the Fall fo Rome and the reestablishment of European COmmerce, and thus the beginning of new records, and as called Dark because we didn't know anythign abotu it, not because it was a bleak tiem of oppression. It was also not all encompasing, and didn't effect the enturety of Europe,a dn wa smuch shorter than peopel thing, between 300 and 500 years.

The Middle Ages themselves wehewn't all bad either, and sw the invention of the Hospital, the Double-bladed Plough, and other interestign inventions. Even the Printing Press can be seen as Late Middle Ages though semplace it n the Early Modern period.

As for the CHurch and Christianity, it largley spread along Roman Trade routes and although soem violence erupted occassionally, the Christian Faith by and large spread peacefully from travelign evangelists and Monistary outposts.

The idea htta Christianity cpnquered Europe byt he sword and killed all who refused to COnvert is simply not true. When you lok at the Misionary travels of St. Augustine of Canterbury, or St. Patrick fo Ireland, you don't see warlike camapigns agaisnt local Pagans, and hte same is true of Bonaventure, and other early Saints hwo helped seed the faith in Europe.

But, to tell most people this is to be scoffed at because everyoen knows Christianity spread by violence.

And, the same is true of the Crusades.

In the 19th Century, it became popular to link Christianity to violence via the Crusdes, ignorign why they where fought and who the enemy they fought where. The result was that all the blame for them fell on he Christians who unjustly went ot war for no reason other than that hey where mean and nasty.

Of ocurse his is Hogwash and the Crusades where far, far more complexe than this oversimplsitic view, but this is the view that seems ot permate the mindset of modern people so that, when they do study Hisotry, they filter it through this mean.

In fact, they filter all of History through the screen of hatred of Christianity, even if the particular student doens't harbour an individual reaosn for such a contemot.

Its just soemtgin everyone knows, that Christianity is usually if not always to blame for these evil and dire things that happen.

And of course the Templers, a Knightly order that grew powerful in the Middle Ages, are a nice and easy target for hatred, because htey where Christian and did fight the crusades, and came to a bad end. Obviosly their attorcities where so bad, they had ot be killed even by other ruthless CHristians!

And they where widespread leaving their mark on the hwole of Europe and th eMddle East, makign them easier ot identify, and legends do surround them about mysteriosu treasures and secrets. Beign Christian makes thos esecretds sinister.


Of ocurse the modenr-day thinkr is also endlesly told they must respect Islam, because Islam is a Religoon of Peace. We had sort of a reverse reactionary effect omn spciety afer terror attakc sint he US and UK, and in an age that values "Tolerance and Diversity" above all else, w had to show we where acceptign of the Muslim community tot he point of beign absurdly overacceptign of it. Thus, Muslims are inscerted everywhere, even in ENgland 800 years ago, where they relaly don't make any sence. (RObin Hood.)

Now I dont hate Muslims and htink they shoudk be treated with respect, bu the overbearing promotion of Muslims and Asian Chasrecter is just too intensive for my taste, and of ocurs epOliticlaly corect because we ar showign how multicultural we are by embracing them an dnot blamign them.

So, we simply reverse the roles, and make an extremist Evangelical Christian Group with its fundamentlaist beleifs behead a Muslim, and link this vicariosuly to the Knights Templer and the Crusades, because everyoen Knos Christaisn are a violent lot who have caused all sort sof problems in the wolrd, and must be kept in check or they'd do it again.

At leats, thats how I think the htinkign developed, and hwy the Knights Templer where demonised.

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I'm trying to make sense of your use of English here – I take it it's not your first language?

The Templars' misfortunes date back to the trumped-up charges made against them by the King of France and the Pope in the early 14C. Unfortunately, some later writers, mostly French and German occultists in late 18-19C, decided that "there's no smoke without fire", and constructed all kinds of wacky hypotheses around the allegations being true (ignoring the horrific tortures used to extract confessions).

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I'm trying to make sense of your use of English here – I take it it's not your first language?



English is my firts language. I'm simply bad at spelling because I am Dyslexic.

The Templars' misfortunes date back to the trumped-up charges made against them by the King of France and the Pope in the early 14C. Unfortunately, some later writers, mostly French and German occultists in late 18-19C, decided that "there's no smoke without fire", and constructed all kinds of wacky hypotheses around the allegations being true (ignoring the horrific tortures used to extract confessions).




I know this. But the quesiton is, why are those allegations still popular today? I'm just sayign that all of the history we've ebeen throuhg
gh shaped outr modern percepion of thre world, and the introduction of new thoughts and an attemto to displace the old ones, by violence and then by ridicule and deconstruction of them in the minds of society, lead to the continual beleif in such thories.


Had te Templers been a Muslim gorup, it is unlikely they'd be subject to continual abuse form modern-day Filmmakers, and instead they'd go out of thir way to tell hwo the charges wherre trumped up. However, the Templers where Christian, and htis was an innate aspect of who they where.

Our society is generally suseptable to claims made that cast a Christian group, or Christianity as a whole, in a bad light.

On this very board, in another thread, perfect examples are easy to find. I debate ith a uswer who goes by the name Northman, who has issued a gaggle of incorrect Historical informaiton regardign the Early Christian Churhc, including how the Jesus narrative was borrowed form earlier Pagan myths and how Constantine forced several rival Christin gorups who where off killign oen another to merge into a single group, and how the New Testament Cannon as arbitrarily selected.

He even ventured into Dan Browns Da VOnci Code land when he said that the Early Christians did not see Jeuss as the Aon of God but saw him as a mortal prophet, and that the idea f his Divinity emerged later.


Its the same thing as with the templers.

The "Where theres smoke theres fire" mentality, in which peopel think there must be somethign wrong with Christianity and its hisotry since people keep complaining about it, not bothering to look at the ulterior motives of the oroginal complaints or historical facts.


The Teplers suffer because it is easy to accuse them. They had been accused of wrongdoing at the end of the ordrs eixstance, and then later in a time when Christianity was beign assaulted by tose who embraced the Enlightenment in the hopes of brining about the "Age of Reason" Some turned t them again in a fanciful attemot to vindicate those ho had acused them.

Its easier than admiting they had been faly accused since we are alrady conditioned to look for problems wiht them both from the peopel who condemned them, and fro the later Enlightenment era thinking that sought to find fault with Christianity overall.


This manifested in the general attitude of the authors of this peice of drek, and ended up on our AScreen as the firts episod of Bonekickers, in which the Crusades are depicted as though the Christians insigated an unprovoked war agaisnt peaceful Muslims, and the Templers where th worst lot being quiet willing to kill Muslims with Gusto.

Just like the Modern Parrallel, the White Wing Alliance, was willin to kill, in an unprovoked manner, a peaceful Muslim, who said "We can liv ein peace".

Multiculturalism demands we embrace he Muslims and the past 200 years of deconstructionalism and fault findign in Christianity have lead to us thinkign in terms of them as a villain, so naturlaly the Christians who where inspired byt eh Crusades woudl kill a Muslim in an unprovoked attack.



I'm just saying that the reason the Templers continue to get such horrible press is in part due to that sprt of permative attitude we have developed as a clture since the 18th cenury.


Not hat the Condemnatkon of the Templers helped matters.

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[deleted]

Lucky the team has its toekn Christian Chick, she may just have access to Holy Hand Grenades.

Now I'm off to go "Meep".

( Yes Im this corny.)

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it might as well be taking place on a different planet and acted out by talking were-rabbits

Maybe that's episode 6, I'm waiting for the Killer rabbit guarding Excalibur...


I am sure you are correct but far from spoiling the episode I will be looking forward to the bunnies with the large teeth.

Except for the beheading, this whole series should have been on CBBC (although some of the sexist language may have had to be toned down - not sure the US market will like it. The anti Christian stance will not be appreciated over there).

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>>Except for the beheading, this whole series should have been on CBBC<<

This is SO funny - CBBC have just been promoting a new children's programme called "Sorry, I've Got No Head". I saw a trailer for it - there was a lift full of decapitated children holding their heads.

All we need now is some sexist language and there will be NO difference between Bonekickers and CBBC!

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I hate to further depress disgruntled Bonekickers viewers (or ex-viewers) who have an interest in history or archaeology - which, as it was marketed in that direction, is likely to be a fairly big chunk of the initial audience - The BBC now owe one of TV's most irritating experts a big favour. We might get to see a lot more of Dr Mark Horton in future documentary programs.

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silverwhistle
Reference to point 4 the sarcens were defending there homeland, I'm not for one moment that everthing they did was right, but the crusades were wrong, christians had no right to the Holy lands.

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They were provinces of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire, which had been conquered by the Saracens during their era of expansion. They had long-established Christian communities (various kinds of Orthodox and Catholic), and some continuing Jewish ones, plus more unusual minority groups such as the Druze. The issue with the First Crusade was whether these territories should have been handed back to Alexios Komnenos, not established as a Western kingdom; but the great schism was still fairly recent at that time (1050s), and there was no guarantee it would be permanent.

In later 12-13Cs, the Saracens were led by Iraqi Kurds (the Ayyubid dynasty of Saladin) and various Turks. The modern-day Lebanon-Israel-Palestine area wasn't exactly their homeland, either.

My point remains: the script implied that the Templars – and I'm not talking about crusading armies *in general*, but the specific military order in question – randomly "slaughtered" innocent civilian populations. They did not. Saladin slaughtered prisoners after Hattin, Richard Oc-e-Non slaughtered prisoners after the siege of Acre, but the Templars did not.

Seingner Conrat, tot per vostr'amor chan
http://www.silverwhistle.co.uk/knightlife

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I love When people Declare them self experts on the knights templar and then drag out the usual 19th and 18th centry clap trap.

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[deleted]

And, that was just the first episode! It gets worse.

What bugs me more than the numerous historical errors is the misrepresentation of how archaeology works. Leaps of faith, spinning elaborate fantasies out of very little evidence -- and it always turns out to be true, as the team continually makes what would be once-in-a-lifetime discoveries.



"The truth 24 times a second."

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