MovieChat Forums > Kings (2009) Discussion > Fate worse than death = being locked wit...

Fate worse than death = being locked with a woman?


does she have vagina dentata or something?

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He's a homosexual and she's irritatingly clingy. So I guess for a gay, that would be the worst thing to happen. =P

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Imagine, for some reason, that a heterosexual man is locked in a room and told to have sex with another man, multiple times, until the captor says you can stop. That is what Jack is feeling and why his scenario is pure hell.

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no one was actually forcing them to have sex / Jack could tell her he doesnt like women and she probably would leave him alone (sexually)besides women cant "force you" to have sex the way men do. i dont know i can think of alot worse things than having sex with someone im not attracted to

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I have a hunch that it is not as bad for a gay man to have sex with a woman as it is for a straight man to have sex with a man.
Doesn't seem to have been difficult for those gay men in the closet who have got married and started families.

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Sure but once the kid is born Jack is dead meat.

As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly!

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sad-34,

I was about to point that out myself. As a straight man who finds that young woman attractive I can tell you there is no way in hell I would have sex with her under those conditions. Better to be locked in a room with someone you don't like than end up shot.

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Having known more than one gay man who had been married and had families, I can tell you that it is not easy and is very difficult for them. Once again, straight men make comments about gay men's lives of which they know nothing.

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Thomasina's advice to Jack was hilarious "Just close your eyes and think about somebody who is dead."

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I thought Tomasina's advice was so sad and hurtful. I really felt for Jack in this episode. As for him being locked in the room; my guess is that after few days they would be allowed to roam the palace and given more freedom.

I understand that in the bible at some point Jonathon joins David in exile. My guess is that if we had a second season, that Jack would some how manage to escape and help David.

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@Renshaw2
it is not easy and very difficult because - they are trying to deceive women,they are avoiding hot men etc. not because having sex with a woman is worse than physical torture

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So you think that's what gay men do all day long is chase "hot men" or if they are in a marriage to a woman, they are "avoiding hot men". All this tells me is that you know nothing of the life of a gay man and, if you yourself are gay, you lead a very shallow gay life.

And, no, a gay man having sex with a woman is no worse physical torture than a straight man having sex with another man.

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You're on some kind of gay pride crusade rather than looking at it in objective way so I discount what you are saying.

No-one including me can speak authoritatively until some kind of survey is done to compare the two scenarios (where conditions are most similar) and rate the levels of distress. My GUESS is that women rate lower on the physical repulsiveness scale for gay men, than men do for straight men. Others may guess different.

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That's foolish, unfounded, and hurtful to the gay community -- nay, mankind on a grander scale. Get a grip, please?

There is no difference in distress felt by gay man being forced to have sex with a woman and a straight man having to have sex with a man. Both must be equally terrible and hurtful.

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Not on a gay pride crusade - just responding to what is turning out to be one insulting statement after another. You are in no way objective about this.

You guess that women rate lower on the physical repulsiveness scale? How demeaning is that to women? In other words, women can just lie there and take it, huh? Do you understand what orientation is? Do you understand that sex is not mechanical? If you think it is, you're either very young or horribly misinformed. I am a gay man and can tell you from first hand experience that, no, I do not seek a sexual intimacy with a woman. And if I was forced to do such, it would be exponentially more difficult if not near impossible. It would be demeaning to the woman to endure such a thing. Societal conventions have forced people (heterosexual males and females and homosexual males and females) into horrendous situations.

Think for one moment. Silas wanted to punish his son with a fate worse than death. By forcing him to produce an heir is that punishment. For Jack, it is pure hell.

Enough said about this.

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and we are telling you that your GUESS is dead wrong. Why in the world would you assume that other than the fact that you are a straight male and that's how YOU feel. Your typical gay man would find sexual contact with a woman quite distasteful - and your qualifier regarding all the "closeted men who have families" is simply absurd.

nobody is on a "gay-pride crusade" or "twisting" what you said into some "being gay is a choice agenda" but when you use language like that it sounds like you're coming from a place of i-already-made-up-my-mind-on-this...

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Ah, you didn't notice the way Thomasina said that. She was advising him - because she'd been there herself:

"It's not so hard....just close your eyes and think of someone who's dead."

Meaning....she had to do it, so he can,too.

She didn't say it mean, she didn't mean to be hurtful, she knows that he is in the same position she once was - forced to have sex with someone he doesn't love, when his true love is dead.

She's been there.

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I missed this part of Thomasina?

Please do explain.

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Well, we're all going to miss that part of Thomasina's backstory - because the show's been cancelled, unfortunately. It would've been nice to see her backstory, and teh backstory of how Rose's brother manipulated it so that she became Queen, and what exactly it was that Andrew did to get himself exiled, etc. etc. etc.

But alas, unless Showtime or some cable with brains picks it up, that's all there is to it.

Just rewind and watch how Thomasina says that line....especially the beginning:

"It isn't so hard......"

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I found the line very powerful. To me, it appeared that she was half speaking under her breath, partially to Jack and partially to herself. I think she had some personal experience in mind, but could she also be refering to Jack's male lover that committed suicide (and is now dead)?

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Watch Brokeback Mountain, then say that again. I dare you. /fist-up

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wow stevewest, i wonder if you carry that kind of wisdom to the other areas of your life.

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I have a hunch that it is not as bad for a gay man to have sex with a woman as it is for a straight man to have sex with a man.


Pure ignorance and a total lack of knowledge of how homosexuality works. Yeah, he can just "stop" and be "straight", suuurrreee. Think before you open your mouth.

WALLEForum.com

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What he is saying is that orientation is not a choice, a very popular belief among straight people who, of course, cannot answer the question, "When did you choose to be heterosexual?" One does not switch on and off one's orientation.

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Wow, I'm amazed at the attempts to twist what I said into something else and make me out to be pushing some "being gay is a choice" agenda. Didn't realise this was such an inflammatory topic over there in the U.S..

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Actually I'm afraid you'll find most topics to be rather inflammatory to anyone in the U.S. Even after two hundred and thirty-plus years of assorted freedoms (Constitutional, implied and/or inferred) the necessary tolerances and restraints lag far behind developmentally. Guess that's the price to pay for being such a young (relative to the nations of most of the rest of the world) nation.

Baby steps...

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you simply have never met my x wife...

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wasn't it implied that the prince had had sex with other women? I know the Queen was promoting him as "rakish" in the press, but what about that episode where he takes David out clubbing? He brings one of the chicks home, and it's understood he's nailed her when she leaves the next morning. Also, the "lead chick" acted like she'd had him before....

i'm not saying you can turn off being homo or anything, but i think his ability to screw straight (however reluctantly) was established in previous episodes....

plus, if he did marry wolfson and become king, he'd have to produce an heir eventually, yes? i think it was understood in the show's reality that he could "hetero up" when he needed to.

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plus, if he did marry wolfson and become king, he'd have to produce an heir eventually, yes? i think it was understood in the show's reality that he could "hetero up" when he needed to.


I suppose an appropriate metaphor for this would be imagine you have a crappy job. It's a job you absolutely hate but, hey it pays the bills. Jack's crappy job is pretending to be straight becuase, he was born a Prince. He doesn't have to pretend that all the time. He can even get "vacation"s away from his crappy job every once in a while. Just like regular people with crappy jobs can get vacation time. Now imagine being locked in a room and, nearly all you can do in that room is your crappy job. You are locked in a room doing your crappy job until you die.

Plus, for all we know that was just phase 1 in the Kings plan of revenge on Jack.



</end post>

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No, "we all" dont know that it was just phase 1. We may speculate but .. we dont know.
I did see it as a pretty final thing anyway. Im also assuming Silas doesnt really want to spend too much time on his son anymore, even to torture him.

However, I do have to say that there is a whole lot of discussion here thats missing the point. Yes some fool said it would be less horrible for a gay man (etc etc, not going to repeat it), but dear god, have none of you learned by now that imdb boards are crawling with ignorant fools? Or is it such a welcome pasttime to make sure they stand corrected at every turn and corner? If so .. by all means .. go ahead, but don't think you're doing it for the greater good or the education of others.

ANYWAY...
The point (having been made earlier in this thread) is that nobody IS forcing Jack to have sex with her.
At least I did not notice anyone holding them at gunpoint until penetration is achieved..?

So basically, what this supposed "fate worse than death" amounts to, is being under house arrest with someone you dont particularly like (maybe actively dislike) - and probably are not interested in sexually (although I do agree that the prince seemed bisexual rather than strictly gay, at least judging from the early episodes, but it could have been a cover of course. Personally, I think he doesn't quite know it himself anymore .. what with having to pretend and lie about these things constantly.)
Oh yeah, and what makes this fate so bad now?
Is it the additional catch: IF you do decide to pass the time with carnal pleasures, you may end up impregnating her, and thus will get executed for having outlived your usefulness? For a gay man, that should not be too much of a problem, right?
Or are we to understand the punishment in such a way, that Jack will gain freedom only after having succeeded in producing an heir? That arguably is pretty horrible, but still .. not a fate worse than death.. If you cant bring yourself to do it, youll still "just" be imprisoned.
Also its worth noting that actual intercourse isnt a necessary requirement to get someone pregnant.. so if she was willing to play along, it would be somewhat easy to reach the intended goal without having to perform any particularly horrible acts, right?
And it is to be assumed that she would want to go along with it, no matter what that entailed, as pregnancy would then also mean her own freedom.

Personally, Id say this would be a worse punishment if he actually was straight, locked in with a hot and willing woman, but having to fear for ones life if she does get pregnant.. and im guessing theyre not provided with contraception ;)

Anyway.. conclusion: I find this one of the (few) weak points of the show. Surely a guy like Silas couldve come up with something "better".
Which then also brings me back to the initial thing I said, and I find myself having to revise it: Maybe Silas does intend to torture him in more ways than were shown after all.

_____
I don't know, Butchie, instead.

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I believe that you are all missing the point. King Silas told him that the fate worse than death was NOT copulation with Miss Wolfson but rather being imprisoned with somebody who loved him and who he hated. Wolfson represented every aspect of himself that he hated. He was forced to take on a wife when Silus told him he'd never be king, he was forced to pretend to be heterosexual, he was forced to marry, and he was forced to mistreat and eventually ignore the one person who loved him all so he could be king. Now that he knows that he will never be king, Silus is forcing him to be locked in a room with this woman that represents all of his failures, cowardice, and shortcomings.

As for Thomasina, she was not giving Jack some sage piece of wisdom. She intended to hurt him when she told him to "close your eyes and dream of someone who's dead". Before she told him that she told him he "went against the family". Thomasina had shown an immense amount of loyalty to the family and when Jack turned on them in order to pursue his ambition he committed an unforgivable act with her. Her exact words in the episode are "You went against the family. You're not charming anymore, Jack. [Don't do this} It's not so hard. Just close your eyes and dream of someone who's dead."

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^I agree with ctina2277.

Racist Game = Pool. WHITE ball push COLORED balls back into holes. BLACK ball out = you win.

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Its not the sexual activity with a woman that kills Jack, its the fact that his father is forcing his hand. Jack had sex with more than a few women without a gun to his head. Also Silas once said that he didn't care that jack was gay as his son but he could not be gay as a future king.

"Hi! I'm Troy McClure, you may remember me from such posts as : Heroes.

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We-e-e-e-ellllll, Jack hates the clingy, mousy girl so much he probably won't let her touch him, so it's stalemate forever -- which means he's jailed forever, so yeah, fate worse than death for *him,* anyway: a neverending ball and chain around his neck. And she'll probably start whining at some point soon, too, making her even more insufferable. Nice touch. But that's only if the show ever comes back ....

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I should add that Silas may not care so much about whether or not Jack produces an heir immediately as long as he can keep Jack miserable and in line -- if only because the equally devious and opportunistic Andrew has offered himself to Silas as a possible substitute for Jonathan, and Silas can use Andrew to make Jack behave ... which Rose does not comment upon because she's waging her own strategy with Michelle's secret pregnancy. Rose doesn't want her son dead but realizes he'll never be king, which makes Michelle the next heir and her child the next in line after that, particularly if it's a boy -- and Rose will fight tooth and nail for her own child (and grandchild) to have primacy over any dubious, conniving nephew, let alone a stranger.

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i didn't see this as a very compelling fate worse that death either.

i don't accept that jack "can't stand" his fiancée. he resented her because she loved him and her affection was repugnant to him because of his own self loathing. as jack continues to assess his situation and look for a way to escape, i could see that dynamic changing to one of jack feeling indifference and eventually sympathy for her.

jack doesn't generally despise women and slept with lots of them. claudia inferred that jack was actually a good lay. the difference though is that jack has sex with women as a tool, but finds sex with men more fulfilling.

i thought thomasina's remarks to jack were very cruel; her imagine someone who is dead was a reference to joseph. she had no moral high ground from which to show her disapproval, having arranged executions herself.

long story short i think after all that jack has been through this fate will be a cakewalk. my sense was that he would not have been in "prison" for long.

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Well said susan! I knew I'd find you on this board! But yeah my thoughts exactly; unfortunately we'll never truly know what would have happened. Regardless, Thomasina's last remark was one of the cruelest things I have ever heard in my life!

"But I knew him."

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i agree mle - it was shameful. the day i mock the death of someone's boyfriend is the day i lose my soul.

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