So, for all the Mexicans that see this post. Regardless of your political point of view, this is the most revealing and controversial Mexican film so far. So controversial that there has been attempts to censor it, prevent it from being shown at theaters. You can love it, you can hate it, but you definitely have to see it! A must for any Mexican!
shareCui,
First, the word you're looking for is CENSOR, not censure. But I won't criticize you for that.
Second, if you read serious newspapers you would have read that Andres Manuel López Obrador was directly involved in editing this "documentary", I did not make that up. Any filmmaker that lets a politician modify his work is just a propaganda producer ala Goebbels, not an independent filmmaker.
Third, I'm an atheist (read my contributions in "Passion of the Christ" board), and I'm openly against participation of religion in any state matters. As such you would have a hard time convincing anyone that I'm right wing.
Fourth, you're probably sincere in your opinion regarding this "documentary", however you, like many others, fail to see that there was a big economic interest in promoting AMLO's presidency, exactly the same way Fecal's was promoted. AMLO is just another politician, he is not our country's saviour, like he likes to present himself. I suggest you watch "All the King's Men" with Sean Penn, not a great movie, but a clear depiction of an AMLO style politician.
Fifth, AMLO is a newborn evangelical christian. Who on earth can believe that such a guy represents the left wing? C'mon, wake up and smell the coffee!
Sixth, Mandoki is (was) good, but he is just not even similar to Michael Moore, so don't waste your time trying to compare them.
Ignacio
Ignacio
First:
thank you for pointing out my misuse of the word censure. I'm not a native English speaker so I appreciate your understanding.
Second: "If i read serious newspapers" such as? Crónica, Reforma, Uno más Uno, El Universal, Milenio Diario? Because I assume you wont count La Jornada or Diario Monitor among the "serious newspapers" and of course Proceso magazine is out of the question. I would really appreciate if you had a serious link to back your statement that AMLO was directly involved in editing this film. As I mentioned in another post. Check Julio Hernandez's interview with Mandoki at www.astillero.tv
Third: people that support right wing views concerning political and social issues don't have to be religious. I have an uncle who is a "regidor" (city counselor, I think) for the PAN and he is not religious. Being a believer in god is not an exclusive characteristic of right wing or left wing people.
Fourth: thank you for respecting my opinion regarding this documentary. Now by your recommendation of the Sean Penn movie I assume you mean to imply that all politicians are full of *beep* Well, interesting because you've seem to put a lot of effort attacking only López Obrador but I haven't read anything in your latest posts that criticizes fecal (as you adequately called him)or any other Mexican politician. There were a lot of interests behind him? Well I saw a lot of anti-Obrador spots on TV that were sponsored by the business cartel "Consejo Cordinador Empresarial) and other phantom organizations. Who are those mysterious and powerful interest behind AMLO may I ask. Because to me it's very clear who imposed calderón as president and Fraude: México 2006 clearly shows who are the factual powers that really rule Mexico.
Fifth: "AMLO is a newborn evangelical christian. Who on earth can believe that such a guy represents the left wing? C'mon, wake up and smell the coffee!"
So then who represents the left wing in Mexico may I ask? Patricia Mercado? The EZLN, the APPO, the EPR, Dr. Simi, who? So what if he is an evangelical Christian. There have Liberation Theologists also in the Protestant Branches. At least he is the only one who is really standing up for what is left of Mexico and his people. He is not Chávez, nor Morales. He may even be a moderate right wing person if you like, but in Mexico's present situation that equals being at the left, because the PAN and PRI are deeply in the right and even moving to the far right (remember El Yunque).
Sixth: about your comparison between Moore and Mandoki, well, first of all I didn't compare them and second to determine which one is better is clearly a subjective matter. I think they are equally good.
So Ignacio, Who do you stand for? What do you stand for? And don't give me an abstract answer such as "I believe in democracy, I stand for Mexico's best interest" because your concept of democracy and your ideas of what Mexico's best interest is, does reflect a political point of view: either right wing, left wing or something in the middle. There is no such thing as "I don't have a political position". So try to be ruthless with the PAN and PRI and the other parties in your next posts to really show that you don't have any sympathies towards them.
Greetings
I stand for a humanity with equal rights, that respects the earth and all creatures with which we share it. I believe in education and information for everyone.
I also believe that the role of a government is to ensure the above, which places me right in the middle of the definition of left-wing.
Unfortunately our country does not have a left-wing option. PRI could have been one if it hadn't become filled with corrupt politicians and crooks, but their ideals could have been good. At least in theory.
I voted for FOX to get the PRI out of "Los Pinos", that's something that had to be done and boy did we pay a high price for that. After FOX I was certainly willing to look elsewhere for an option. Unfortunately AMLO, though you may not agree, was the old system's ticket to get back into "Los Pinos", so I had to vote for Calderón, something I'm not proud of.
I personally boycott products from the CCE, I know first hand of companies affected by "El Yunque's" practices. (By the way, El Yunque was founded by PRIistas from Puebla. Did you know that?).
Hope these lines help you see that I do stand for left-wing politicians, including freedom from religion, which I believe should be an integral part of left wing politics.
Ignacio
All the things that you stand for are respectable.
In this Board we should be discussing the MOVIE.
And by your opinions I think that you have NOT seen it.
I sincerely Invite you to see it and confirm the IDEAS that you stand for.
you will see if you dare that the WHOLE mexican electoral process in 2006 was not FAIR, therefore it was a fraud.
If you go see it, please see it all, cause standing and walking away fromthe theater does not count as seeing the movie.
I know it might be a tough thing to do, but seeing all the movie gives you the right to complain/discuss about it.
SALUDOS
I stand for a humanity with equal rights, that respects the earth and all creatures with which we share it. I believe in education and information for everyone.
Wow! You do? Cool!!
I also believe that the role of a government is to ensure the above, which places me right in the middle of the definition of left-wing.
Great!! :)
Unfortunately our country does not have a left-wing option. PRI could have been one if it hadn't become filled with corrupt politicians and crooks, but their ideals could have been good. At least in theory.
OK, so then what do you do? Criticize the only option that in spite of all it's defects is the only one closer to actually implementing left wing policies?
I voted for FOX to get the PRI out of "Los Pinos", that's something that had to be done and boy did we pay a high price for that.
Yep and we're still paying man. He gets a high presidential retirement paycheck every month plus military protection that's paid by Mexican contributors.
After FOX I was certainly willing to look elsewhere for an option. Unfortunately AMLO, though you may not agree, was the old system's ticket to get back into "Los Pinos", so I had to vote for Calderón, something I'm not proud of.
I agree, you definitely can't be proud of voting for calderón. For his neoliberal policies are the opposite of all you believe in. I really don't think Obrador would have been worse than calderón. The old system's ticket. How old? You mean like the Cárdenas period or Echeverría or Salinas? AMLO, regardless of all his shortcomings, was the only one doing things to recover the social welfare state and Ebrard is doing the same too. And they both haven't repressed private investment nor foreing investment. Currently the DF qualifies as one of the "Capitals of the Future", Financial Times dixit. Calderón is doing exactly the opposite, trying to dismantle the public social security network. (Reforms to ISSSTE and IMSS, among other things. I think you should have reconsidered your vote.
I personally boycott products from the CCE, I know first hand of companies affected by "El Yunque's" practices. (By the way, El Yunque was founded by PRIistas from Puebla. Did you know that?).
Great!! Please continue to do so. Perhaps you're right about the Yunque's origin, strange because they oppose the jacobinistic attitudes of the PRI and seek revenge for their loses during the Reforma period and the Guerra Cristera, but you may be right. Nevertheless, notoriously the PAN is currently infiltrated by the Yunque: Manuel Espino being the most famous example.
Hope these lines help you see that I do stand for left-wing politicians, including freedom from religion, which I believe should be an integral part of left wing politics.
Well, I'm glad to see that you're a fervent left wing advocate. About freedom from Religion...it's gonna be hard to find pure atheists, the Left world wide has turned to freedom from Fanatism and Religious intolerance, but avoid stressing atheism. Good luck on that one.
But I don't see the logic of calling your self leftist and voting for the worst exponent of Neoliberalism. You truly have a conundrum here.
Greetings
Cuitlahuac,
If you believe in education and information for everyone then how can you support a candidate that capitalized on every uneducated voter in our country.
You can't deny that AMLO's statements and public appearances were geared directly towards the uneducated. Do you think that's a candidate worth considering? Did you ever read any serious proposal from that guy?
You seem like an educated folk, did you really see any substance in his proposals? I was trying to vote for the left and just couldn't, I had to vote against him and the only viable option to stop him was Calderón.
Ignacio
You seem like an educated folk, did you really see any substance in his proposals? I was trying to vote for the left and just couldn't, I had to vote against him and the only viable option to stop him was Calderón.
Calderón who is clearly against everything you believe Ignacio!
Thank's for the compliment by the way.
The Phrase: "For everyone's welfare, First the Poor"! Makes a lot of sense to me. AMLO's proposals are far from perfect but he is not a rider of the Apocalypse either.
And he did favor education through the creation of the Autonomous University of Mexico City and High Schools. But of course, there is so much to be done, that the task of improving education in Mexico City was far from being complete. But an effort was made.
I don't think it would have been the end of the world if López Obrador was allowed to take office. In my view his Alternative Nation Project is simply an attempt to stop the cruelest aspects of Neoliberalism, and the PAN has no intention to do that. At all. You've seen it for your self.
Greetings
Mexico City University was in favor of better education? C-mon Cuitlahuac, everyone knows that school was a joke, el Peje was just looking for voters, not promoting education.
Evangelical Christians want everyone to think that evolution is a fraud and that the universe was created 6,000 years ago. They want you to believe that dinosaurs are a hoax and that god created stars that are millions of light years away with light already under way so we could see them.
AMLO negotiated with the church not to promote abortion laws in Mexico City during his term. Have you noticed that those law were not promoted until AMLO was out of office? Who got in bed with big corporations to fund his "reconstruction" of downtown Mexico City? If he is left-wing I'm a frigging angel!
To me a guy with no proposals but those that get him votes and that stands for evangelical christians is NOT an option for president of our country. I agree that the PAN is not the best option, but still they were the only ones that could prevent el peje from overtaking the presidency and that was enough for me and for many to vote for them
The PAN didn't win the election, AMLO lost it.
And regarding Mandoki (just to get back to the subject of this discussion) was an integral part of Obrador's campaign and as such is not an objective presenter of information but a sad propaganda "filmmaker".
Ignacio
Ignacio
Mexico City University was in favor of better education? C-mon Cuitlahuac, everyone knows that school was a joke, el Peje was just looking for voters, not promoting education.
Well, apparently the demand of having a University for the City was a long time one. It may not be perfect, but someone had to start it. In the future, if the government changes hands I'm pretty sure no matter what political party, the project will continue.
Evangelical Christians want everyone to think that evolution is a fraud and that the universe was created 6,000 years ago. They want you to believe that dinosaurs are a hoax and that god created stars that are millions of light years away with light already under way so we could see them.
OK, but I don't think AMLO is this kind of Christian, he is Protestant, no doubt, but in no way he belongs to such a dogmatic branch. At least he has never stated anything like this ever, had he done it, I'm sure the CISEN would have timely unleashed a media scandal.
AMLO negotiated with the church not to promote abortion laws in Mexico City during his term. Have you noticed that those law were not promoted until AMLO was out of office? Who got in bed with big corporations to fund his "reconstruction" of downtown Mexico City? If he is left-wing I'm a frigging angel!
Maybe he did, how could we know? Maybe he decided not to give any extra excuses to his enemies. And concerning the reconstruction of downtown Mexico City, well, what to do then? He can't be accused of scaring investments away.Isn't that's what modern left wing politicians are supposed to do? Find some sort of middle way between the two ends of society.
To me a guy with no proposals but those that get him votes and that stands for evangelical christians is NOT an option for president of our country. I agree that the PAN is not the best option, but still they were the only ones that could prevent el peje from overtaking the presidency and that was enough for me and for many to vote for them
Well you have your reasons.
The PAN didn't win the election, AMLO lost it.
The problem is, the PAN and all the government apparatus are obsessed with burning the voting ballots of the past election and don't allow the reopening of not even one of many ballot boxes that still have uncorrected inconsistencies. Check what John Ackerman and José Antonio Crespo have to say about this. All the inconsistencies count, specially in an election theoretically decided by 0.56%.
And regarding Mandoki (just to get back to the subject of this discussion) was an integral part of Obrador's campaign and as such is not an objective presenter of information but a sad propaganda "filmmaker".
But why should he be objective? He is not a news program anchor. He is an artist and he has a political perspective and wants to show it. His interest is to show all the recorded material that was never shown by Televisa and TVAzteca. The PAN and its allies have their tribune in the TV corporations, why should Mandoki give them more space?
Ignacio
There, you just conceded that Mandoki is not an objective observer, that he is only presenting one side of the issue.
Why bother discussing anymore?
Ignacio
Who said he was obliged to be an objective observer? He never says that anywhere. He is presenting all the videos recorded by citizens that prove the irregularities and anomalies that occurred during the past election and that Televisa and TV Azteca simply ignored. I never argued that he presented both sides of the story. He simply presents the other side of the story the unofficial, one the one that was ignored by the Mexican television corporations. We all saw the official version, now it's time to see the other side. Then compare them both and after you tell me that was not an electoral fraud in the presidential elections of July 2006.
shareHola Cui! Felices Fiestas y un excelente 2008 para tí.
I'll just say this regarding the "proof" presented by AMLO and Mandoki. If it was so conclusive why didn't they present it during their appeal process? I believe the media stopped presenting videos by AMLO after he made a fool of himself with the first ones they showed. Remember those?
If he had any proof he would have made something about it then. Right now he is just trying to show some "muscle" and trying to play his pieces correctly to get his guy (Encinas) into the PRD's presidency so he can be assured to run again in 2012.
But the big question regarding 2012 is this:
If he is already "Legitimate President", CAN HE BE REELECTED in 2012?
Again, best wishes for 2008!
Ignacio
Some time later,
but better later than never.
The media covered up all the evidence that proved the electoral fraud of july 2006.Just remember Obrador took boxes filled with inaccurate voting acts to the Loret de Mola radio news show, but Loret de Mola did not follow up the info just like Televisa did. Obrador´s coalition had more than 70 thousand inaccurate voting acts that proved that the Electoral Tribunal had to at least recount all those electoral ballots with evident arihtmethic errors. But the Tribunal decided to cover up the errors and so many errors were counted in.
And there were many more videos than the only contested one... there were many more videos that are shown on the movie and were never shown on national tv, why? Because the corporate television media decided to cover it up.
By the way, up to this date, January 2009, calderon's government still refuses to allow access to any electoral ballot box, not a single one, and right now the magazine Proceso is carrying on a legal battle against the Mexican government to gain access to at least some ballot boxes. And do you know what the Mexican usurper government officials say in the defense: "to allow access to the ballot boxes will endanger Mexican National Security" How about that? Not even Bush said that in the US.
Cui,
Get over it!
Nobody in his right mind would give Lopez Obrador absolutely any credibility today. He is a political corpse that is past decomposition, not even his closest allies care to appear next to him today.
I would NEVER vote for the PAN again, but I'm still glad this delusional megalomaniac didn't become our president.
Ignacio
Ignacio,
So I asume that now you ackowledge that there was a Fraud in the 2006 election given that even the authors of it have confessed: espino, elba esther and fox.
Now at least you recognize that calderón was a bad choice, but you haven't answered to my request of names of leftist mexican leaders you do like.
I can see that you still don't like Obrador, and that you say that he is a political corpse, just a funny side note: if he is a corpse how come we are still talking about him?
I really don't understand your obsession with him. I stand up for him because I believe in his ideals, and I think he is a good leader: don't you think that if he was corrupt the current government would have tried to prosecute him or at least vent the case in the media? But even though Obrador is being taped and filmed day and night by Mexico's spy agency no proof of anything illegal has emerged.
So if you have a better leftist in mind than Obrador, please let me know, I've been wating for your answer for almost 2 years.
C ya.
PS: please don't tell me that you're considering to vote for Peña Nieto in 2012.
Cui,
Your guy's a JOKE, his only goal is to become president, which is now a loooong shot since the only party supporting him is a minor one that was created by Salinas and his PRI.
I would NEVER consider voting for Mr. Prettyface (Peña Nieto)! Nor will I vote for the PAN again. If AMLO is out of the picture I might consider supporting the PRD, but I really do not like Ebrard, so I'm out of candidates.
My vote will go to the party that promotes these changes:
1.- TAX Churches, whoever promotes this gets my vote for life
2.- Keep religious organizations out of open electronic media
3.- Legalize drugs... will be hard, but it's the only way to control the mobs.
Ignacio
Lo mas estupido de este "thread" es que ambos son mexicanos y no comentan en español ja ja ja.
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