Looking back, when did you first surmise that W13 was going down hill. - Warehouse 13 (2009) Discussion

[–] JDLail 11 years ago

Even though the ratings actually started go down at the end of S2 which of course precedes S3 you may have a point. S3 was a lot darker and there was another cliffhanger. In fact every season to date has ended on a cliffhanger, maybe that's a problem. I for one detest them.

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[–] Banshee_Boardwalk 11 years ago

I would have to agree that it was season three when it became apparent that the show was going downhill.

I actually really liked a few episodes in this season-but overall the quality was lacking from what we saw in season two. I also thought that the Jinks character was unnecessary and crowded the main cast-which ultimately lead to Leena's death. Then this whole split Season 4 into two was a real stupid idea to begin with-which just meant fewer episodes spread over two years. I also miss the Christmas episode. Everything the show once was-was perfect.

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[–] adarious_mist 11 years ago

I have to disagree with the rest of you in terms of when the show began going downhill. In my opinion, season 4 is when it started going downhill. The astrolabe storyline is fraught with holes and seemingly impromptu plotline patches. Up till that point I was fine with the series.

What's all this complaining about something like this going dark? They deal with powerful artifacts capable of all sorts of different terrors and destruction...this isn't a disney movie.

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[–] JDLail 11 years ago

The torture episode really repulsed a bunch of folks. As to tone, it did change in S3 and some folks didn't care for it. YMMV.

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[–] SystematicHabit 11 years ago

For me, the first half of Season 4 is when it started to decline. Season 3 is the best season in my opinion so maybe it was more apparent to me that Season 4 wasn't as good. This half of the season has definitely improved from the first half, which I do find odd considering they were shot at the same time. I've really enjoyed each episode from Season 4.5 so far.

All those who believe in psychokinesis, raise my hand.

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[–] buttercup_ash 11 years ago

When Leena died. Actually that whole season was very dark, and no fun. The show had light-hearted balance, and it lost it that season.

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[–] I_hatenazis 11 years ago

When they worked Kate Mulgrew into the cast as Pete's mother, that was the last episode where the viewership consistently topped 2M. She sucked the life out of the show, it just felt like they were making room for a big name Star Trek Alumni for too large a role and it took the wind out of their sails. They never fully recovered.

The show worked much better when it focused on his relationship with Myka, just look at the last episode 'The Big Snag'. I liked Steve Jinks because I thought that he and Claudia had great chemistry.

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[–] rtms77 11 years ago

Season 3 for sure, especially when they didn't snag HG and make her a regular. All the momentum went down hill when they introduced Jinks and shoehorned him in. HG should have stayed instead. She was far more interesting and gave a tie in to the past of the warehouse.Not to mention the whole Skyes thing was silly. It lead to plot holes that made the WH team look dumb and incompetent.Myka and Pete were off for most of the season, like something just wasn't clicking like it use to.

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[–] JDLail 11 years ago

Kate Mulgrew showing up had nothing to do with it. Her 1st episode ran on Aug 29 to an acceptable rating (2.29 mm). Then they skipped a week to Sept 12, then ran another one a week later, then skipped another week and ran the last 2 on Oct 3,(1.63 mm watchers) That's just crappy scheduling.

If you look at the ratings for seasons 1 thru 3 with out exception the ratings go way down in September. As has been stated up thread the darkness in S3 seems to have been the major problem. As always YMMV.

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[–] I_hatenazis 11 years ago

Kate Mulgrew showing up had nothing to do with it. Her 1st episode ran on Aug 29 to an acceptable rating (2.29 mm).

Yeah. That's kind of like saying, the guy was standing up just fine when he got hit by the first bullet, Of course her FIRST episode would be just fine, it's the reaction to the first episode that is telling.

Btw I agree with the previous poster that it would have been great if they would have been able to keep H.G. She fit the motif of the show really well.

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[–] rtms77 11 years ago

I agree Kate had nothing to do with it. The scheduling was one of the big factors that did them in in season 3. I knew SyFy was trying to sabotage this show the moment they let it go into the fall season, up against the networks big guns. They could start pointing at the ratings and say'See it's not doing so well we have to screw with it even more' and out comes season 4 in two pieces.

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[–] JDLail 11 years ago

Season one ran 3 weeks into September. Season two ran 3 weeks into September. Season three edged over into October so while it was slightly worse it was nothing new.

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[–] CigarDoug 11 years ago

Just an open question: Why would SciFi sabotage a show? I hear that time and time again on IMDB, especially about the SciFi channel. Shows cost a lot of money to develop and build an audience. What do you gain by sabotaging a show? To make room for a different show, that has to try and build an audience?

As someone who grew up watching the original Star Trek, I remember how excited I was when they first announced there was going to be a WHOLE CABLE CHANNEL dedicated to Science Fiction! Network television tries a SciFi show now and again, and botches it almost every time (The Event, V, Revolution, Earth 2, etc.). That one fact has been consistent throughout the decades, now. I really had hopes that a channel dedicated to Science Fiction would cultivate some truly awesome shows, without being forced to be formulaic and stale. Boy, has SciFi Channel let me down. We are given crap like fake ghostbusters and wrestling. Let me say that again, WRESTLING. WTF?

In an era where over half the blockbuster movies are fantasy or SciFi (LotR, Star Wars, Harry Potter, even throw in the Marvel/DC movies), you would think a channel dedicated to SciFi could EASILY build an audience. Are the suits at SciFi Channel even trying? Why move shows from one night to another almost every season? To give Wrestling a better audience? Seriously, what is their motivation? Do they wish they were producing another redneck reality show instead? Maybe we need some new blood. Or maybe someone should launch a competing channel. I don't know. There IS a huge audience out there for quality SciFi and fantasy. Too bad the channel with that name doesn't get it.

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[–] JDLail 11 years ago

Their motive is profit and only profit. A lower rated reality show can make more money because its costs are so much less.

The problem with the audience is that too many of them refuse to park their butts in front of TV sets when the show airs. Advertisers won't pay anything at all for content that is time shifted more than three days and I suspect they really won't pay for the three day stuff either. Also note that many of us many of us in America do not have DVR's that can report to the cable company when a time shifted show is watched. Probably then those audiences will not be counted if an advertiser actually does care about the three day numbers.

As far as Hulu and the like is concerned the ad rates seem to be insufficient to make up for lesser ratings when the shows air.

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[–] vdeo_junkie 11 years ago

The SyFy channel is owned by NBC. They have a history of cancelling shows, even well rated ones, to make room for other things. The problem is that those shows will cost even more than the ones they replaced. Defiance is a big example of this. They renewed it for a second season because of big initial ratings, but it seems to be a little too far to last. Even shows like Battlestar Galactica which won a lot of awards was never good with ratings. They cancelled Eureka, now Warehouse 13, and probably something else soon. They are doing the same thing on USA right now. NBC changes people then cancels shows. Look at their main NBC channel, it has been dropping in ratings for years because they never keep anything on long enough. That is why people are complaining. I understand the money thing, but even shows that make money are cancelled to put in something else.

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[–] CigarDoug 11 years ago

I didn't know that NBC owned SyFy, that does make more sense, since NBC screws up every Science Fiction show they are involved in, dating back to Star Trek. I guess I was deluding myself that cable channels, because they are on cable, are not limited by the stupidity of the dinosaur broadcast networks; but I guess that can only be true if they are independently owned. Look how good some of the shows are on A&E and elsewhere. Quality TV shows DO exist, they just need a cable channel willing to air them long enough to build an audience, and not move them from night to night.

It is such a shame, there is such a huge audience for good fantasy and sci-fi, as any idiot can see by looking at what movies are big hits, both in the theater and on DVD and rentals. Maybe, one day, someone will launch a competing channel. I can only hope. Personally, I thought Eureka had run it's course, and BSG did have a proper conclusion, although they did sweep a few things under the rug. I think back to Babylon 5: JMS was determined to have a five year story arc, and he did, even though he had to change networks to do it.

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[–] mikeflw1 10 years ago

Actually, you don't need to only look at the theaters for good Sci-Fi, just take a look at some of the REAL cable channels - Spartacus and Game of Thrones for just two. John Varley wrote his first book, and won a major sci-fi award for it, (he's the author of Game of Thrones). Sure you could say those are sword-and-sandals, but LotR is too, with add-ons. Do I even need to mention vampires? TRUE BLOOD has vampires, and a LOT more... and they have a lot of imitators.

Other posts have mentioned Stargate SG-1, which started out on SHOWTIME for two seasons, and included some pay-cable nudity and language to build their audience before moving off the pay-channel... Oh, let me think, aren't Spartacus and Game of Thrones including nudity as well? Many of the "not pay-cable" shows are pushing in that direction as well, not just sci-fi programs. It seems pretty incredible that SyFy actually modifies scenes in their shows/movies using flying fuzz-balls, frame cropping, and even shortening/chopping scenes (although that might be to squeeze in more *paid programming* (read that as advertising).

"Importing" Canadian shows? Well, if you mean one like LOST GIRL, it was a hit for two years before SyFy got their hands on it, and the Canadians were screaming about their show getting Americanized... They really needed to worry about getting SyFy'ed!
The Canadian shows like LOST GIRL and LEXX have generally been receiving both tax breaks and actual subsidies to make shows there. That brings down the cost of producing the shows quite a bit when compared to American shows. Didn't Hercules (Kevin Sorbo) and Xena get the same treatment from New Zealand where they were filmed too? THERE'S the profit!

One of the two biggest network blunders (IMO) was TERRA NOVA, and I believe it imploded because it was forced to be schizophrenic... One episode they had the sheriff singing the *spider song* to his young child, not long after, they had a "bad guy" executing a prisoner/hostage with a pistol shot to her temple, (yes, I did say HER temple). IMHO, that show started with a lot of promise, and quickly got well off any proper path... be a family or a mature show, but trying to be both?
Well, the Jurrasic Park books were certainly not family fare, but the movies were not as dark.
Too bad DINOTOPIA has already been done (Hallmark Channel show, and a flopped series using a totally new cast, after the show was SO popular.)

And while I think about it, WAREHOUSE 13 was something of a fusion of several other sci-fi shows. (Think FRIDAY THE 13TH the series, Special Unit Two(Three?), and the like, including some of even the original TWILIGHT ZONE).
True, there is nothing new under the sun (so to speak), but ideas float around in LaLa Land for a while, and it seems once one of the big players picks up an idea, at least two others have to try a VERY similar variation, especially in movies.
And that trend has moved to TV with the vampires and werewolves.

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[–] magickbox 10 years ago

John Varley? (By the way, Titan would be a cool adaptation, if done properly.) I thought George RR Martin wrote Game of Thrones. Though that raises the question of why some great classic science fiction novels aren't being adapted. We all have a list of favorites. Are they inherently costlier to produce than original screenplays?

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[–] michinine 11 years ago

And with this quality of writing, Jaime had probably no reason to stay.

W13 had budget problems. Either because the actors wanted more money
or Syfy trying to squeeze everything out of it.

You can't make a show with lots of strange FX-laden artifacts on a dime.
Add the fact, that actors usually want much more money starting from
the fifth season, its clear why there is only a 6 episode order to
finish this thing off.

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[–] lancer165 11 years ago

I thought from a recent aired interview with cast for another series [Defiance and its British Jamie Murray??? you know here as HG] that it was normal to sign up its lead roles for multiple seasons. Jamie Murray if my memory serves me suggested that while the series may not air for long she was contracted for perhaps 7 seasons/series.

I don't think it is possible for any series to properly advance unless it knows how its going to end. I do believe that unless this is the case there will always be some hiccups along the way. Much like the fly in the kitchen that when faced with an open window chooses to come back in and carry on looking for its escape. To our annoyance.

In Star Trek we were told in every episode that it was a time scheduled mission. The time would either be completed or Enterprise would be lost.

Some times with correctly produced tales a series can be self contained and allow for a new series if warranted without any background story to be continued.

The cliffhanging series can be very frustrating.

I am waiting to find out if we are all going to be subjugated by those reptilian creatures [some tongues I would allow to give me a good licking without the prosthetic of course] I speak of "V".

The Prisoner did wrap up OK on both sides of the Pond.

I want BIG BANG THEORY to out do friends and not just for PENNY PENNY PENNY but she does help.

I do agree that HG was useful addition and that her appearances assisted parts of the ongoing storyline. I know that some viewers read something else into those episodes but the on screen moments did look a little special with the two ladies.

Jamie has spent a good few moments on screen in the US but not as a totally nice character. So far Dexter, Warehouse, Ringer, I await seeing the recorded episodes of Defiance. As an aside are Brit actors cheaper than US actors these days.

No I dont think there has been a real downturn in tales if the two leads interact well I pretty much let anything else go by me just like the abilities to bypass physics natural law etc of the artifacts. I do however like how they insert for story purposes the reason they work. The writers use their imaginations to save our brains the pain of imagining. I am sure when they write they dont think we are all closet SHELDONs.

I will however miss it when its gone.

I wonder if I should make a hard copy for a later time.

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[–] mikeflw1 10 years ago

... Then they skipped a week to Sept 12, then ran another one a week later, then skipped another week and ran the last 2 on Oct 3,(1.63 mm watchers) That's just crappy scheduling.

I am thinking the STUPID scheduling has a LOT to do with the show's decline. I rememeber getting "lost" in the scheduling changes, and thinking the show was already cancelled back then, and started looking around for other interesting shows... self-fulfilling prophecy anyone?

Now, it is **possible** the network realized that section wasn't the show's best work (put politely), and did the stupid scheduling. Now we are back to self-fulfilling prophecy...

Unfortunately, in the *real world* there are automatic salary increases for each actor named at the show's beginning. You may have noticed that *some* actors get weekly "Special Guest/Appearance By:" type credit which keeps that actor out of the automatic salary increase. Probably the use of that designation is pretty restricted though, so the cost of the show goes up as it runs longer.

Therefore, if the viewership/demographics do not increase as well... say Adios! The studio's reaction to seeing those two lines crossing is to reduce costs by switching out cast members with new cast, either by killing them, retiring them, or the way the daytime soaps did it was having a plane crash, (usually in the jungle somewhere), or an actor in the hospital in a coma... With a bit of good luck, the chaos would drag some viewers back to the show, and the new characters would attract new viewers... Well maybe that is actually more than "a bit". Good luck capturing the attention of the "new viewers" with the attention span of a single text message, or selfie, at a time...

Before very long at all, the cost overwhelms the sponsorship revenue, and heck, there are probably at least a dozen more shows waiting for a slot, and their chance...

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[–] myeck 11 years ago

To be honest, I thought the series started going downhill with the first episode after the pilot. It was an interesting premise, but it seems the writers that took over the series didn't really "get" what the creators were going for.

Ideas like the quasi-steampunk technology the Warehouse used just became cheap set dressing after the pilot. The mysterious, somewhat inexplicable nature of the first artifacts was replaced by an After School Special level of cheesy MacGuffin.

The characters have been poorly served. Usually, as a show goes on both the actors and the writers develop a deeper understanding for them, but in this show they have actually become more two-dimensional. And Pete in particular has devolved from a competent Secret Service agent to a giggling 12-year-old with biceps.

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[–] PlatoSays 11 years ago

I couldn't agree more re Pete - I've just seen S4 up to E14 and the last 4 or 5 shows were barely watchable. I dipped into S1 again just to check my sanity and there is no comparison between the characterisation of him and Myky and now. These actors are in their late 20s not teenagers.

The 1940s plot was desperate, ditto the magician one - just awful.

A pity that its lost its way entirely. It needs putting out of its misery - that its been renewed is stunning.

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[–] mrbungle-9 11 years ago

Adding Jinx to the cast. Totally unnecessary addition. I get they wanted to get Claudia out in the field, but she has great chemistry with Artie and could have worked with him.

I am only now catching up on season 4 and have to force myself to watch it as I can't stand Jinx - or the guy who plays him. I've never liked him or his brother much. But I still really like Pete and Myka so watch it for those two.

Pity the show is coming to an end because I know it still has its fans. But they changed it so much from the first couple of seasons that it doesn't feel like the same show anymore, even though it fundamentally is of course.

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[–] bastets_kitten 11 years ago

I know exactly what you mean, Mr. Bungle. The Warehouse storylines were edgy, suspenseful, borderline educational--and then came Steve.

The first two seasons were phenomenal. WH13 went downhill with the Sykes storyline, and it has never come back up to the quality level of those first two seasons.

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[–] Obi-Wan-4 11 years ago

Certainly don't see Jinks as a totally unnecessary addition. When they decided to put Claudia in the field, she needed a partner. Artie belongs back in the warehouse.
As to chemistry, I think she has great chemistry with Jinks (correct spelling)obviously as a friend not sexually. I also happen to like both the Ashmore twins and am happy I'm able to watch them both this season - on this show and The Following.

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[–] JDLail 11 years ago

"I couldn't agree more re Pete - I've just seen S4 up to E14 and the last 4 or 5 shows were barely watchable. I dipped into S1 again just to check my sanity and there is no comparison between the characterisation of him and Myky and now. These actors are in their late 20s not teenagers.

The 1940s plot was desperate, ditto the magician one - just awful.

A pity that its lost its way entirely. It needs putting out of its misery - that its been renewed is stunning."

Eddie is 46, Joanne is 35. Both would love that you think they are in their 20's. That being said I agree that's Pete's childishness got old a long time ago. I haven't seen the 1940's ep or the magician one but based on the responses on this board you seem to out on a limb in your opinion of the former at the very least.

As the original poster said they lost their way in S3 by going way too dark. I just didn't see it until Brother Adrian happened. His arc just did not work and got worse as the season progressed.

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[–] turgon-2 11 years ago

In S2, Pete went from being somewhat silly to being a broad caricature of a silly, immature guy. And Myka got that teddy bears and fuzzy slippers side to her. I eventually came to accept that in the characters, but I preferred the S1 portrayals.

Still, I enjoyed the series as a whole, and will miss it.

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[–] avnrulz 11 years ago

Yes, the Sykes storyline was where I started losing interest; I only watch now because there's so little 'watchable' Sci Fi. I made it 20 minutes into Defiance, and that's it.

BOHICA America!

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[–] JDLail 11 years ago

I am re-watching S3 atm. It has several moments of gratuitous violence early on, such as Sally Stukowski suffocating that minion at the end of 3.1. She had a real sick smile on her face as she held on. Still up to 3.8 (the 40th floor) it was not too bad. The torture in 3.8 by Mrs Frederic however is in my opinion the tipping point. Once that happened there was no way back for too many of the people who used to watch the show.

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[–] skay_baltimore 9 years ago

I couldn't agree more re Pete - I've just seen S4 up to E14 and the last 4 or 5 shows were barely watchable. I dipped into S1 again just to check my sanity and there is no comparison between the characterisation of him and Myky and now. These actors are in their late 20s not teenagers.

I couldn't agree more. And I'm at that exact same place now watching it marathon-style on Amazon Plus. They've turned Pete's character into a caricature. It's sad when that happens in shows, but unfortunately it happens all too often. I'd also put Claudia into the unwatchable category as well because of her incessant juvenile/tantrum style portrayal of her character. I've also never been a big fan of Saul Rubinek because it seems as if he's always playing the same type of character within a very limited acting range. Finally, the plots in S4 totally went off the rails in terms of suspension of disbelief because they simply made no sense whatsoever, which made watching the series painful instead of fun. It's sad when characters (and story arcs), end up regressing instead of progressing. But that's exactly what happened in W13.

Love isn't what you say or how you feel, it's what you do. (The Last Kiss)

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[–] C.S.Wood 11 years ago

Personally I really liked Season 3. I liked the idea of a big bad amassing artifacts and using them for evil, and I really liked the season 3 cliffhanger with the destruction of the warehouse was great.

The first half of Season 4 was no good. There should have been some other consequence of Artie using the astrolabe. Not only that but a lot of the artifacts of late have not been that interesting. I mean there was an episode where someone used an artifact to phase through walls and steal cars.

It's too bad it's been cancelled because it still had a lot of potential but it kind of brought it on itself.

Don't try to cash in love, that check will always bounce.

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[–] sam_ip 11 years ago

Probably since the opening sequence shortened to a couple seconds...

Name any shows that shrink a full opening sequence to a few seconds and didn't change for the worse. When that happened usually means the show or the network trying to cut budgets. When they *do* save some money more budget cuts will follow. That's when we see product placement like tigerdirect creeped up in the show. It ended up affected the show's overall quality.

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