MovieChat Forums > The Tenth Circle (2008) Discussion > unjustly accused!!! SPOILERS!!!!

unjustly accused!!! SPOILERS!!!!


just read the book, and it was upsetting- in my opinion she wasn't raped! Not at all actually, its sad she didn't want to do it, but she didn't say no- and his life was ruined because of her. I know that there are people out there who will say that even a look can mean no- but saying no means no. I have no doubt that if she would have actually said "no!" that he would have stopped. I am afraid that this happens many times in real life- she made very poor decisions and the whole horrible chain of events was her fault. guys should be smart now and have women sign DETAILED consent forms before sex! Ridiculous...
f/s4

reply

Funny you say that

http://youtube.com/watch?v=f--u_puzhGs

you'll get a kick out of that

formerly not_so_much

reply

I read the book, and I was left with the feeling that we never knew if she was really raped or not.I can't wait to see how the movie is though.

reply

i felt jason was unfairly accused and that trixie was a spoiled brat and that they got away with murder, but it will be interesting to see how they portray it in the movie.

reply

But doesn't that whole scenario seem like it could make a great thriller/mystery movie? With all that uncertainty, it could mess with the audience.

reply

At the same she was highly intoxicated and passed out in the middle of it and yet he was still having sex with her. Obviously I don't think he deserved to die, but she did feel like she was raped, and wasn't really all there mentally. Since we got to see all points of view I think that it is easier for us to see that he was accused wrongly and it did ruin his life for no reason but I don't think that she is entirely to blame. I think he shoulders some of the blame as well, sometimes a person is too out of it to say no but that doen't mean that men should just keep on with the dead, he needed better judgement as well.

reply

it's a life time movie prepare for a scene where he gives her roofies and forces her to drink before he has sex with her

reply

I thought the book kind of painted the picture that he was unjustly accused and that is what made the whole thing more interesting though. If he clearly and violently raped her I wouldn't feel so bad for him.

reply

Not in this one - she seduced him, she bought the drugs and took them herself, she stripped off in front of the gang to make him jealous, she lured him into bed to try and get him back and away from the girl he had left her for - she was the archetypal girl that every mother prays her son will never meet. Sheer poison!! Oh, and a liar into the bargain.

reply

She didn't 'lure him into bed' - she told Zephyr she was messed up (and honestly, not able to give consent, but that is another point entirely) and laid into the bed by herself. Jason sought her out. He came into the bedroom when she clearly wanted to be alone.

And she didn't 'strip off' in front of the gang- Zephyr convinced them to play strip poker (it was actually strip dice) and when she had to flash them, she was clearly upset. She wanted to walk away but peer pressure can be intense. Mos kept cajooling her to keep up her end of the deal, so in frustration she made a bad decision and QUICKLY flashed him. It was at that moment he illegally (she was a minor) took her photo on his cellphone (that he later, again illegally, distributed to the townspeople).

As for the drugs - yes, she purchased and took them herself, but in the book (and in the movie, although it is hard to tell), she only wanted something to slightly relax her (valium, marijuana, etc.) and didn't know she was taking a date-rape drug. Even in the movie, all he told her was it was called 'caveat emptor - buyer beware'. He didn't tell her it would make her forget 90% of the evening and entirely not know what she was doing. Look up Ketamine - it is a nasty drug, and even if she chose to take a drug, not knowing that she was taking THAT drug specifically probably messed her up. Yes, she showed HORRIBLE judgement buying the drug and taking them, but honestly some of her later actions can easily be explained by the drug.

She wasn't some floozy, some slut with an ax to grind. She was your typical teenager. Her boyfriend literally just pulled the rug out from beneath her and broke up with her in the worst way. Her best friend, who is honestly the 'slut' of the two of them persuaded her that teasing him was the way to reel him back in. And honestly, peer pressure aside, how was she supposed to know the right way to win him back? Each month magazines sell millions of subscriptions telling girls and women nearly the exact same things that Zephyr was telling her - tease him, make him jealous, if he really loved you/liked you, he'll eat it up and come back. It's all games but it's what society teaches teens and women to do in response to sudden breakups.

And as for the lying - the only thing she knowingly lied about was her virginity, but that was mostly because she was interviewed in front of her parents (something that is important but also detracts from rape interviews). She was trying to protect her parents from knowing she wasn't a virgin. All the other 'lies' are EASILY accounted for in the fact she had a drug in her system that caused effects she didn't know would happen (because she didn't know what she took). I've been Ketamine'd. It makes giant holes in your memory... and your brain tries to piece it back together... sometimes it fills the holes inaccurately. You might be SO sure something happend but it might not have the way you 'remembered' it. The brain has just been injured (by the drug) so it tries to fix itself and things sometimes get scrambeled. And other times you can remember bits and pieces but nothing solid. It's frustrating and confusing and honestly really sucks.

Was Trixie without fault? No, she made some serious errors in judgement. Was her ex without fault? No, he made some errors. He should have stopped immediately when she said she didn't want to be friends with benefits. She said no. She cried. But he continued. Plus, if she was that messed up on drugs and alcohol, he probably should have been safer and not had sex in the first place. In most courts, high levels of drinking make consent null and void, even if she clearly gives consent. Just saying. The drug dealer also was at fault - he should have clearly told her what she was taking. Don't put all the blame on her - she was not the only one at fault.

reply

So if she says yes, and then passes out, is it ok to keep going?

reply


That's the thing with Jodie Picoult books...much of the outcomes could go different ways.

The bell that calls us on; the sweet far thing.-W.B. Yeats

reply

As a female, I would say no. Even if a female said yes, I think once someone has passed out - everything is called off. The person who isn't conscious has no consent with what is going on. He or she can't stop anything. That's just my opinion.

reply

I think another big issue for me was intent. The way he was portrayed in the book he doesn't even think he raped her, the small amount of physical resistance while intoxicated was interpreted as passion or consent from his point of view. Another issue is not even slipping the drug within the drink himself. She never said no and also lied about it. The author purposely went out of the way in almost all of these situations where I think it appears that he was an innocent or garner sympathy in some capacity.

Then they do other things to set him up as a guy to hate: the whole arrogant jock thing, I actually think it makes it more tragic though as he had a bright future ahead of him.

reply

I don't think it is possible to be convicted with no intent. Reminds me of manslaughter, at the very least it would be a much reduced classification. Also, the no consent rape is usually associated with the same person who drugged you.

Where did you guys get the book?

reply

"the small amount of physical resistance while intoxicated was interpreted as passion or consent from his point of view"

Small amount of physical resistance?? ANY amount is too much and only a bastard would think otherwise about the girl he was trying to take advantage of. She had to go through that horrid rape exam and it was her life that was shattered firstly because of it.

reply

[deleted]

But it was HER mother who murdered him - and it was she who purchased the drugs and took them herself, she who lied to the police that she was a virgin, her mother who concealed the evidence about the drugs, she who would not take no for an answer, but continued to pursue the guy when he had told her clearly that he didn't want her any more, she who went to the party with the express intention of seducing him away from his new girlfriend because her vanity was hurt, she who initiated the sex, giving him the impression that she wanted to be a 'friend with benefits' and when she heard that, she refused to accept it - she then decided that she didn't want to go on, after having deliberately led him astray. She didn't scream, there was no music playing, every word that came out of her mouth was a lie. She adn her horrible dysfunctional family were responsible for that boy's death and they all deserved a custodial term for the part they played in it. Oh, and she told the police she was a VIRGIN!!!

reply

Her mother did NOT murder him-weren't you paying attention to the film??

reply

"As a female, I would say no. Even if a female said yes, I think once someone has passed out - everything is called off. The person who isn't conscious has no consent with what is going on. He or she can't stop anything. That's just my opinion."

actually, it's the law.

reply

We only were able to see her blacking out from her prespective though and have no idea what that looked like to Jason. I think that fact that he honestly believed that he did not rape her also changes things because it means that he didn't notice that she was blacked out for a while. It may not have happened in a very noticable way, so I don't think his life needed to be ruined because of that.

reply

"it means that he didn't notice that she was blacked out for a while"

Most guys would notice if the girl they were having sex with was limp and silent, for God's sake. Nice try

reply

Who cares about Jason and his "bright future"? Guys always try to play the victim in situations like this. Trying to draw attention away from the actual victim!

reply

I have often woken up to things happening and never considered it rape. Similarly, I would say if someone falls asleep "during" its game on!!

myspace.com/bankrupteuropeans

Coz lifes too short to listen to Madlib

reply

Does Jason know she was not completely conscious and drugged and was not able to resist properly? I'm just watching this on Lifetime and the only character I like is Daniel oddly. The way Jason acts though it seems he doesn't think he raped her and she can't even recall things correctly.

reply

[deleted]

i think that she was raped...I mean, she said "No" at one point, at least in the book she did, and then he said "Don't tell me you don't want this." That clearly implies that he raped her...maybe the line is a little blurry as to tell whether it was rape or not but IMHO I feel that he did.

reply

I think it was the fact that she more than said yes when they started to mess around and that she was fine about it until she blacked out. I think it's unfair to him in that situation because we don't really know how her blacking out happened (like length) and if it was noticable to him. It didn't seem that way in the novel because he never mentioned or seemed to notice that she had blacked out, so not really his fault. The fact that she was on drugs that caused her to do this also hisn't his fault, they caused her to come to in the middle of the intercousrse forget that she had initiated it and decide that she obviously never had. They both were also intoxicated so Jason didn't really have a clear mind to notice things either.

I was upset with the movie for making the scene a blatant rape because I think one of the interesting aspects of the book is making your own opinion about wether he did it or not and in the book I think he is presented to sympathize to as well, it is very obvious that his life is ruined in the book. I was also confused as to why he even believed his innocence in the movie when she was clearly crying and saying no while he did it, he had to know he was raping her so his denial didn't make sense like the book did. I felt like they life-timed it up in the last 10 minutes making everything okay (like his death and her mother which in the book isn't just brushed under the rug as not a big deal)when Jodi Picoult is more about the fact that everything isn't okay and not everything can be a perfect ending.

reply

i have a feeling that every Jodi Picoult book will be butchered no matter what when it's made into a movie. Have you seen the cast listing for my sister's keeper? idk if you've read that, but if you have, you'll know what i mean by saying they're gonna butcher it...i heard they;re even changing the ending...it kills me. Jodi writes AMAZING books...

reply

I know it's easier said than done, and wisdom comes with age, etc etc., but what she should have done was just walk away from him - he had said he didn't want her anymore - he told her twice, in fact, once in the school corridor, and once in his car. She was totally lacking in self =respect, she bought drugs and took them herself, which he was blamed for, she went to a party on a school night, simply to try and get him back, she stripped in front of her group and got her picture taken, she seduced him into bed, she was out of it on the drugs she had taken herself, and the only reason she protested was that he mistook her motive, and thought she wanted to be a 'friend with benefits' whereas she wanted him back on a permanent exclusive basis. Nor was she a virgin as she said she was. And she was how old? 15??

So, a promising young man has his life ruined by a self loathing lying little loser, whose mother then pushes him off a bridge into freezing water and drowns him - and all because little miss hotpants couldn't get her way. Had I been that boy's parent I'd have been out for blood, and a financial payout sufficient to ruin their lives the way they had ruined his.

reply

Right, poor Jason was such a little saint, wanting to have sex with her for "benefits" and cheating on his girlfriend to do so.

The book made it clear that she was in total shock during the rape exam-hardly the behavior of a conniving girl. It doesn't matter why she said no, the point is she said no! And again, the mother didn't kill him. Nice try at blaming the family. How many times have I heard of the girl and her family being blamed and the rape victims being yelled at because the poor wittle boys are now being disadvantaged?

reply

Sorry, she date raped herself, led the kid on, oh WELL. I have a gut horrible feeling that way too many "girls" think they are entitled to 2nd thoughts in bed. More often than not, they want it, but when there's no follow up, they just yell rape.

reply

Sorry, she date raped herself, led the kid on, oh WELL. I have a gut horrible feeling that way too many "girls" think they are entitled to 2nd thoughts in bed. More often than not, they want it, but when there's no follow up, they just yell rape.
That's not what happened in this book though...

Who IS this girl? www.skyesweetnam.com

reply

I just listened to this book on CD. It was my impression she WAS raped. She tried to fight him off, but he kept at it. I am sorry when a supposed 6' tall, 175 lb boy is ramming into a 5'2" 110 lb girl and she is trying to fight him off (not mention all the alcohol and the drugs), it IS RAPE.
Trixie states toward the end of the book, that one does not have to SAY yes to have sex- there are clues, responses- physical responses, etc. Well, a woman - when she is pulling away from a guy and crying, etc. is saying NO.
Otherwise, the movie kind of sucked compared to the book.
I thought it was significant Trixie chopped her hair, and wish the movie had added. The mom was arrested at the end of the book- very open ended. I don't know- the book just explained everything better.

reply

If you watch the movie at the end it shows more of the sex scene.
And that she said "stop" and "no" but thats their opinion.
I have not read the book yet but I plan to.
So I can see how I feel about it.


I personally in the beginning did not feel that he raped her.
And I still do not think he did.
I will have to read the book.





""Melovebenlongtime.""

reply

The movie was okay, but not sure about the ending. The only reason she didn't want sex with him and started crying is because he said "friends with benefits" and Trixie did not like that idea...but she didn't seem to care that much about him when he died and felt all traumatic after raped. I don't even think she looked drugged or that out of it, at least put up more of a resistance kind of an insult to real rape victims. Yeah, I didn't care for her. Daniel had a good heart though.

lol and I'm still confused on who killed Jason in the movie or was it just an accident?

reply

[deleted]

Yeah, Trixie came off as very selfish to me and couldn't feel for her as much as maybe the movie intended. Thanks for clearing up the fall.

reply

[deleted]

[deleted]

I think it is debatable as to whether Jason's death was accidental or not - the mother was certainly responsible - she had no right to approach him, she did push him and he did lose his footing because of it - a good ADA could make mincemeat of her and have her in custodial for a minimum of five years and I think that's what should have happened. LIkewise the father for beating him up, and Trixie for being a lying little sh*t, wasting police time, buying nad using illegal substances. I mean, how low can you go, she went to her mother's squeeze to buy her drugs. Juvie for her!!! And a whopping ruinous civil suit for wrongful death awaiting them when they got out, heh heh heh!

reply

Grow up

reply

I think Trixie set out to get revenge on him on the count of him dumping her and she was hell bent on getting him back.....but it went too far. I started to believe her until I saw her key his car. Then I knew she was nuts. I would like to read the book because I know it goes into more detail.

reply

"I started to believe her until I saw her key his car. Then I knew she was nuts"

Was this before or after the rape?

My God, I can't believe he fell and the mother saw that. Sounds like a killer story. Have you noticed that Picoult almost always kills the rapist or the one that we think is the rapist? She also seems to sympathize with child-abusers and baby-killers (ala "Plain Truth".)

reply

[deleted]

[deleted]

Maybe he did stop when she told him to. That would change him utterly in my eyes. The book just made it sound like he traumatized her. I don't know, maybe it's not supposed to be clear

reply

[deleted]

I must have missed something. I don't remember her passing out. I remember her changing her mind about having sex with him after he says "friends with benefits" then telling him to stop and him forcing her.

Tomorrow's just your future yesterday!

reply

In the book, its a little different than the movie- as in the book she says to her father that she wanted to say no, but didn't. In the movie it shows the flashback as her actually crying out and saying "stop!, get off me!" and he keeps going- so it seems in the movie it is more of an actual date rape, which is not at all what I got from the book, as I said before I still think he was unjustly accused, and his life was ruined all because of her.

f/s4

reply

[deleted]

Sounds more to me like her life was almost ruined because of him.

reply

[deleted]

If you read the book, the rape is ambiguous and he honestly truly believes that he did not do it. She accuses him of rape, the whole town turns on him, he loses his position on a team that basically was his future, and oh yeah DIES. I think his life was pretty much taken away because of her and over something he didn't really do at all.

Her life on the other hand, will go on so I don't see how he almost ruined her life at considering she still had one at the end and he does not.

reply

Babecake: "In the movie it shows the flashback as her actually crying out and saying "stop!, get off me!" and he keeps going- so it seems in the movie it is more of an actual date rape, which is not at all what I got from the book, as I said before I still think he was unjustly accused, and his life was ruined all because of her".

But you only think that from the book's story, right? Because from th emovie's entirely different story - where she IS yelling and being raped - then he was JUSTLY accused! (Of course his life is ruined because of her - but that's like saying the criminal's life is ruined because of what he did to the victim).

reply

I haven't seen the film, but from the book what I got was that Jason truly believed he hadn't raped her and Trixie truly believed that he had. It was a grey area, really, as firstly although Trixie didn't say no, she did try to push him away, but he thought she was playing hard to get rather than actually saying no. Secondly, she was very, very drunk. If you have sex with someone who is too drunk to know what they are doing, then that is technically rape. However, we don't know if this is true of Trixie - she was drunk but we don't know if she was so drunk that she wasn't in a fit state to give consent. However, seeing as she had been drugged, she almost definitely wasn't in a fit state to give consent, BUT Jason didn't know that she'd been drugged. Also I thought that she lied about blacking out because when she said that she blacked out she said they were in the bathroom and then she woke up and they were having sex, but then later on she said that he'd said the whole "friends with benefits" thing first, so then she can't have been unconscious :S.

So, my conclusion, she was raped but it wasn't really Jason's fault. It was partly him (he should have realised that she was out of it and that she was pushing him away), partly the drugs/drink and partly a misunderstanding.

Who IS this girl? www.skyesweetnam.com

reply

I just now saw the film - and it's clear in the film's last ten minute flashback (which I think we are meant to believe - meant to believe as much as hte flashback of her buying the drugs) that she CRIES out, says no, says stop at least twice, says GET OFF ME! He keeps going. He rapes her - it's quite clear.

However, in turning the story from the written one (as people here say, it's not at ALL apparent that he raped her) to the movie version - he DID rape her, they lost the whole morale of the story!

The policeman says "You see, if you'd told us about the drugs [that the
daughter had bought the drugs herself], there wouldn't have been a dead boy out there tonight". Really? How come? Only because the proof of the rape wouldn't have been as strong if they didn't have the drugs -- and thus they would WRONGLY have failed to prosecute the boy for rape? Is that the morale?

If you conceal exculpatory evidence of a second possible (but untrue) method of committing a crime, the criminal will (nevertheless rightly) be prosecuted - and be at the bridge and die? But of what point is concealing such evidence - if it doesn't stop him from RIGHTLY being prosecuted?

I think the moviemakers changed the story from a false story of rape backed up with a false possible method of drugs - to one of rape REALLY HAVING OCCURRED with a false possible alternative method through drugs - and failed to make hte rest of the movie fit the new critical turn of the story. The morale makes no sense if he was guilty of rape - the morale pronounced by the policeman made no sense if he was guilty of rape.

Thus, I was left thinking "HUH who CARES about the drugs? That's all a red herring - wholly unimportant at any point in this story of rape. She was raped."

By the way, what's the point of all the silly stuff of snow falling?

This is a VERY popular girl at the beginning of this movie -- she has a boyfriend at the mere age of 15 - and she has friends. True, she has an adulterous mother - but that doesn't make the daughter an outsider. (None of the students know).

She even gets invited to a party - no one shuns her at all. She's NOT an outsider at ALL.

So what's all the stuff from the father about not fitting in, being outsiders, etc.?She wasn't an outsider until she made a (just) accusation of a fellow classmate that would cause him to go to prison for decades. Obviously that will cause some division in the school!

reply

[deleted]

"Just before the rape exam, she said that he pulled out before ejaculating. That suggests to me that he must have stopped prematurely. So if she was telling the truth at that point, I think that's our evidence of his innocence right there. "



Yes, she said he pulled out, but he DID ejaculate, on her stomach. During her exam with the blacklight, there were lots of white splotches on her stomach that the nurse took swabs of. Then during the interview, they asked if he had used a condom. She said "No, he uh...pulled out....and uh.....on my stomach." So that means he did NOT stop when she said to stop, he continued until he was ready to ejaculate and then did so on her stomach and obviously not in her vagina because that could lead to all sorts of other issues, since he was not using a condom.

reply

[deleted]

I just think that would be an awfully large coincedence that he happened to be that close to orgasm at the exact same time that she told him to stop. As in, "Oh, ok, I was just about to finish up anyway!" Unless you're suggesting that he did stop, and then finished himself off onto her stomach afterward. As for why they would have included that info, is simply because they were at a random party and he was not there with his current girlfriend, so he did not happen to have a condom with him. Maybe Trixie should have had one since she was planning on winning him back, but perhaps she wasn't planning on going so far as to have sex with him.
Also, in the movie when she was being interviewed in front of her father, he became very upset and stormed out of the room when she mentioned the ejaculating part, so maybe this was included in the story to further show us how upset her father was getting about the idea of all this happening to his little girl. There's something a little more upsetting about hearing about your daughter getting ejaculated onto with some guy's semen rather than hearing that he climaxed into a condom.

In any case, I never read the book and am only going off of the movie here, in which we see a flashback where she does tell him to stop, and he very obviously does not stop. She started crying and telling him to get off of her, and he keeps right on going throughout her crying and pleading. I've read so far quite a few times that the book is much more ambiguous, which I typically am a bigger fan of. However, based solely on the movie, we see that he did not stop when asked.

For what its worth, I DON'T feel he was entirely to blame. I do believe that he didn't realize she wanted him to stop. He may have just not noticed or thought she wasn't serious, or maybe he was just too drunk to realize she was crying. He seemed quite sincere in the movie in feeling that he had absolutely nothing to feel guilty about.

reply

[deleted]

[deleted]

If you wanna be anal about it, she was 14, so it's stautory rape, whether she said yes or no or nothng at all.

If you love Bacon and are 100% proud of it copy this and put it as your signature! WWBD?

reply

[deleted]