MovieChat Forums > Jennifer's Body (2009) Discussion > People get caught up on the 'feminism'

People get caught up on the 'feminism'


It seems like there is a lot of debate over how Jennifer's Body can have have a feminist message if the titular character is so antagonistic and sexual allure is so present.

I don't think that the ultimate theme of the film is feminine empowerment. It is a feminist film because it was made by females, for females (despite how it was marketed), about female issues. Feminism in this case, is about getting the female perspective heard.

So it's feminist as far as context, but in the film itself there's something much more subtle and layered going on. It's really about growing up, about a friendship falling apart, and a shy, kind-hearted person learning to stand up for herself. Diablo Cody is a good writer in part because she's unafraid to show the ugliest sides of her characters, and I think it makes the movie even more feminist in a way because she refuses to prettify the female population and instead draws them as diverse, imperfect, human individuals.

People also seem to think that the fact that women are the ones doing the killing and saving in the film is supposed to carry an empowerment message. I disagree. I think this film is just like great tragedies-- it reveals dark tendencies in human nature/society in the hopes that we can learn from them and live more peacefully.

Also interesting: I found an interview of Ms. Cody where the interviewer asks her why she decided to subvert the horror convention and put women in control. Her answer was, "Because it's realistic." The interviewer laughed like it was a joke, but Cody looked absolutely serious, and I believe her. It wasn't a choice made specifically to subvert the genre. It was a choice made to reveal something very true and very important about adolescent relationships.

reply

I found the clip, by the way!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FOmb3peEXA

Also, this one's interesting... Look the tired look in her eyes after hearing the same stupid questions about the kiss.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB0iva3zBs4

reply

I found the clip, by the way!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FOmb3peEXA


Very interesting. I've have not seen the film but I've wondered about it (I'm no fan of Megan Fox and that's helped to keep me away). But just watching the Diablo Cody interview you linked to has made me very curious. You are right, when she says that a female monster with male victims is 'realistic', she's dead serious, not a hint of irony or sarcasm. I don't think that most persons who consider themselves feminists, or have casually labeled this movie as a feminist / female-empowerment film, would particular care for the implications of her philosophy - it's not all flattering to women!

"What happens to us in the future? Do we become @ssholes or something?"
- Marty McFly

reply

Capn-Kirk! I'm very pleased to have piqued your interest. I think Jennifer's Body is a really under-rated film. If you are able to appreciate a movie that gives teenage relationships some really genuine and kind of unflattering exploration, you will probably enjoy it. If you enjoyed the sense of humor in Juno and have a penchant for horror-tinged fantasy, you'll love it.

reply

I don't think that the ultimate theme of the film is feminine empowerment. It is a feminist film because it was made by females, for females (despite how it was marketed), about female issues. Feminism in this case, is about getting the female perspective heard.

I agree, that's exactly how I see it.

reply

[deleted]

I don't care about any feminism in this, it was that it was poorly done. In my opinion it is the writing, the story itself and to certain degree the acting. If all they was doing was making a fun b horror monster type movie then I can understand it better. I did enjoy it because I set my mind to enjoy the cheese and laughed all the way through the movie. I didn't get anything else out of it. I'm all for female protagonists, as well as them overpowering and winning against male or female antagonists.

The only males that was bad was the ones in the band and they don't have anything bad happen to them till the very and and we don't get to see this in good enough detail. It seems the only real bad character other then them is Jennifer herself. She seems to be bad even before the demon and just has extra powers for her to use to hurt Needy by killing off any guy that she may like or likes her.

I think it could of been so much better if either it was done better or if they just stuck to a cheesy horror movie without trying to make it symbolic.




Come visit my blackrosecastle.com
stephentheblackroseenterprises.com

reply

You're failing to see the asymmetry of the moral outrage that accompanies "art" of this sort. A film made by a man about men who get their jollies raping and murdering women would be castigated as a misogynistic atrocity. A lot of people are probably irritated by this film because it's more acceptable with a female killer. And besides that, there is no profound statement in this film, nothing to justify the violence as anything more than a female empowerment fantasy. Me, I could care less that this film was written and directed by women. Like that's supposed to somehow enhance the quality of the film...

reply

I didn't see this film as feminist. I think people are looking too far into the movie and just need to take it as a good horror comedy.

Welcome to my Nightmare- Freddy Krueger

reply

"A film made by a man about men who get their jollies raping and murdering women would be castigated as a misogynistic atrocity. "
-- you mean that popular atrocity, a clockwork orange?

"Ugh! I don't like this." --Ambrose Bierce

reply

[deleted]

1. i am a feminist
2. kubrick is a perv who omitted the final chapter of the book parallel to the u.s. printing, and added at least 2 rape scenes that weren't written by burgess.
3. based on the above, i believe you are right, minus the "scare quotes"-- i really don't get why you did that, so feel free to give it a go here.

"Ugh! I don't like this." --Ambrose Bierce

reply

[deleted]

1. i am a feminist-- radical, second-wave, old-school.
2. you are a dip$#!t without a clue as to what that means.
3. be thou ignored forevermore.

"Ugh! I don't like this." --Ambrose Bierce

reply

[deleted]

[deleted]

I am a feminist and i just thought this film was a silly movie with a lot of one liners
I enjoyed it was made by females, but that doesn't make it better than any dumb b movie horror made by men
and i can enjoy a movie where a girl gets raped as well, if it's a good movie... though I don't look for movies where people get raped or mauled exclusively

IMO i don't think things should be heavily censored because they show a bias against a certain group (as long as it isn't downright hateful) I just thing more groups besides white males need to get their voice out their heard and it be more welcomed... but white males make great things and shouldn't stop. Us females need to just make more things... whether it's good or a cheesy b movie

http://www.youtube.com/chaztr0n

reply



I am a feminist and i just thought this film was a silly movie with a lot of one liners
I enjoyed it was made by females, but that doesn't make it better than any dumb b movie horror made by men
and i can enjoy a movie where a girl gets raped as well, if it's a good movie... though I don't look for movies where people get raped or mauled exclusively

IMO i don't think things should be heavily censored because they show a bias against a certain group (as long as it isn't downright hateful) I just thing more groups besides white males need to get their voice out their heard and it be more welcomed... but white males make great things and shouldn't stop. Us females need to just make more things... whether it's good or a cheesy b movie


THANK YOU. I second everything you said.

reply

This movie is good as a horror movie.

However, it's not actually a horror movie. It's about a friendship falling apart and Needy actually going insane and a giant metaphor for eating the men alive. If you watch it again from this point of view, I think you might enjoy it a lot more, but that's just my opinion.


Forgive me for not leaping for joy, bad back, you know.

reply

I disagree. I think this film is bad as a horror film, feminist film or whatever they want to label this to give this film more props than it really deserves, Honestly this film is garbage. Horrible one liners that ruins any fun the film could be.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2604794/

reply


"Horrible one liners that ruins any fun the film could be."

This film is so much more, so much more!


"Maybe it's another dimension. Or, you know, just really deep." --Needy

reply

@ serval26,

I think it is a Feminist film. But you won't find the Feminism on the literal level.

At first, I was like you. I thought this is dumb. How is turning a girl into a monster a Feminist statement?

However, Diablo Cody's Feminist message is hidden in the symbolism if JB. She has said that she hides a Feminist message in her work. JB is a detailed allegory, and you'll find the Feminist message hidden there.

The film is not really about Needy going crazy. Don't believe that.


"Maybe it's another dimension. Or, you know, just really deep." --Needy

reply

Well, I know it's actually about the friendship falling apart and Jennifer hooking up with boys, not eating them. But I'm saying it was really about Needy going crazy too because if you watch it on that different level and listen to the dialogue, Chip telling Needy she needs help and Jennifer telling Needy "maybe you should talk to someone about those disturbing images, we're all really concerned, especially Chip, I think he may be having second thoughts about you" has different meaning. Jennifer is a metaphorical man-eating demon, caring only about getting the guy now. Needy is having hallucinations about her "eating" boys, when in reality she is hooking up with boys and their friendship is falling apart.

Forgive me for not leaping for joy, bad back, you know.

reply

"Hallucinations" might not be the right word.

And none of what you say is actually symbolic or allegoric.

Jennifer is not "a metaphorical man-eating demon", she actually does kill boys; or rather the demon does. Jonas and Colin both are butchered -- there's nothing metaphoric. They are literally killed.

And even if I concede what might be a valid psychological interpretation, how is it Feminist?

One girl, a monster; one girl, a nut.

It might be unpopular, but Diablo Cody has said that she hides a Feminist message in her work, and I believe her.


"Maybe it's another dimension. Or, you know, just really deep." --Needy

reply

Well, they have to be hallucinations. I mean, they have to be images that are not real that she is seeing at the time, not something like Low Shoulder or the Satan sacrificing that she's making up and throwing in afterwards, because whenever she makes any mention of the demon Jennifer to the real Jennifer, there is some comment like seeking help for the disturbing images, or needing help for her obsession with Jennifer. And the metaphor is all about a friendship falling apart, really, it's all about two girl friends whose (somewhat romantic) friendship falls apart, it's telling the story about girls, by girls, with girls, from the girl point of view.

Forgive me for not leaping for joy, bad back, you know.

reply

"And the metaphor is all about a friendship falling apart..."

But does it really fall apart?

Seriously, look at the death sceen: the girls on the bed form a heart -- Jennifer's head to the right, Needy's to the left, Needy's leg making the bottom point of the heart shape.

On the literal level, the friendship might fall apart, but there is an allegorical level where the girls are united forever. Remember when Needy says, "Sandbox love never dies"?


"Maybe it's another dimension. Or, you know, just really deep." --Needy

reply

Maybe on an allegorical symbolical level where the girls form a heart shape on the bed? But yes, it ends. Jennifer steals Chip from Needy, and the girls might love each other on one level, but their friendship ends. That's why Needy is such a different person.

Forgive me for not leaping for joy, bad back, you know.

reply

alexaw9 writes: "but their friendship ends."

No.

There's more to it than just the heart shape.

The other part of the death scene is a pieta when Jennifer's mom comes in to cradle her daughter. Look at how Jennifer's body is draped. There is even an angel statue behind Jennifer.

Diablo Cody's Feminist message is that, well, our Saviour is a teenaged lesbian.



"Maybe it's another dimension. Or, you know, just really deep." --Needy

reply

Well, maybe. If she meant those symbols like that.
I can't exactly go on about my interpretation of the movie but then tell you yours is wrong. If their friendship doesn't die, and their romance ends up metaphorically successful, I'd finish this movie much happier than I finish it now. :)

Forgive me for not leaping for joy, bad back, you know.

reply

alexaw9 writes: "I'd finish this movie much happier than I finish it now. :) "

Yes.

There are two things going on. It is very painful to watch Needy lose her friend and her boy friend. Needy loses every thing.

But the spiritual part -- the allegory -- tells us that Jennifer truly did love Needy. And also that Jennifer sacrifices herself to save the boys that regarded her as merely a sex object.


"Maybe it's another dimension. Or, you know, just really deep." --Needy

reply

Yes, I have watched this movie over and over (like 5 or 6 times in a week hahaha) because I just keep continually trying to see whether or not Needy and Jennifer truly are in love. It seems like they are, but I just wanted them to get together. It's nice to know at least that they both did love the other.

Forgive me for not leaping for joy, bad back, you know.

reply

However, it's not actually a horror movie. It's about a friendship falling apart and Needy actually going insane and a giant metaphor for eating the men alive. If you watch it again from this point of view, I think you might enjoy it a lot more, but that's just my opinion.
This makes no sense, because there are many scenes where Needy does not appear. The murder scene in the woods for instance. Even if you want to claim that the story was a retelling by Needy, it still does not explain the murder of Low Shoulder at the end, nor does it explain why Needy has demon eyes on the security camera.

But the spiritual part -- the allegory -- tells us that Jennifer truly did love Needy. And also that Jennifer sacrifices herself to save the boys that regarded her as merely a sex object.
Be careful about falling into the damsel in distress snare. In our patriarchal culture we tend to view females as the passive actors, but I think one of the brillances of Jennifer's Body is that it reverses that relationship. I do not think it was that the boys treated Jennifer as a sex object, but rather that Jennifer treats boys as sex objects. It is a daring feminist message. Jennifer is a female chauvinist.

Yes, I have watched this movie over and over (like 5 or 6 times in a week hahaha) because I just keep continually trying to see whether or not Needy and Jennifer truly are in love. It seems like they are, but I just wanted them to get together. It's nice to know at least that they both did love the other.
Of course, Jennifer and Needy are in love with each other. The very first scene of the main timeline, when Jennifer is doing her flag-team routine in the gym injects their romantic attraction for one another. I don't know if anybody payed attention to the song in the background it is a song by the Black Kids, which goes "You're the girl I've been dreaming of, ever since I was a little girl... I'm not gonna teach your boyfriend how to dance with you... oh why can't you see..." The song is about two friends (one of which is in love with the other), but one girl has a boyfriend. Sound familiar?

reply

Dozhd writes: "Sound familiar?"

Yup!

I've said the songs are symbolic.


"Maybe it's another dimension. Or, you know, just really deep." --Needy

reply

Dozhd writes: "Be careful about falling into the damsel in distress snare."

I did not say that Jennifer is a "damsel in distress."

She is the Saviour of boys who regarded her as nothing more than a sex object. Clearly, this is a challenge to the patriarchal culture that sees God as "the father" and Christ as "the son." (This can also be seen as Grace, as the boys do nothing to earn love from the Christ, it is given gratis.)

The "reversal" that you speak of is in the literal part, not the allegory that contains the spiritual part.


"Maybe it's another dimension. Or, you know, just really deep." --Needy

reply

I see myself as a feminist and I didn't see this as a feminist film at all. It was Megan Fox half naked, again, acting in a way that wouldn't be good enough for a school play. And it seemed abstinence preachy to me if anything; Jennifer turned into a succubus when she was sacrificed by some indie rock band because she wasnt a virgin -.- That kind of storyline wouldn't pass muster in a hammer house of horror film.

reply


s1106634 writes: "...I didn't see this as a feminist film at all."

The Feminism is hidden in an allegory.

Diablo Cody has even said that she hides her Feminist message in her work.


"Maybe it's another dimension. Or, you know, just really deep." --Needy

reply

That may have been her intention, but lots of filmmakers have intentions that don't come to light in the film; the maker of 'Showgirls' wanted it to be a satire of the pitfalls of the sex industry and admitted after the film came out that it failed to do so the way he wanted.

reply


s1106634 writes: "...lots of filmmakers have intentions that don't come to light in the film..."

At the risk of being a better Feminist than you, I must say that I got it.

When Chip speared Jennifer with the pool skimmer pole, I got.




"Maybe it's another dimension. Or, you know, just really deep." --Needy

reply

How is a guy spearing a girl (succubus or not) in the chest a good depiction of feminism? Are you trying to argue that its about the male treatment of women? Because I can kinda get that, but only with dump truck full of salt

reply

As I said, it's allegorical.

It's what Jennifer represents, it's what she personifies.

You have to look at the symbolism in the film...


"Maybe it's another dimension. Or, you know, just really deep." --Needy

reply

Allegory is a literary device in which characters or events in a literary, visual, or musical art form represent or symbolize ideas and concepts.

MAYBE if Jennifer's character was played by someone who could actually act it would have worked, but I struggle to see what ideas or concepts are being symbolized by her, (or even satirized for that matter)
or really any of the characters. The only character I found slightly bearable and not completely *beep* annoying and pointless was Needy and even she got tiring after a while.

reply

Or film. You forgot film. Symbolism can be used in film.

This scene is the most powerful allegorically:

http://amandaseyfried.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=61936&fulls ize=1

Take a look. (It's a screen cap from the film, on an Amanda Seyfried fan site. It was a lot more impressive in the theater.)

It's sounds like you didn't like the film, so you may not want to spend time with the symbolism; but trust me, it is a very rich and detailed allegory. They didn't give Diablo Cody an Oscar for nothing!


"Maybe it's another dimension. Or, you know, just really deep." --Needy

reply

Of course symbolism can be used in film, its been used beautifully (or disturbingly depending on what film you're watching) in many other films, I just don't think it came out very well here.

I don't understand what that pictures meant to show me.

I don't like the film, and (I hate to keep coming back to this) despite its other problems maybe with some better screen writing and acting (again, mostly on Megan fox's part) any ideas may have come through better.
This is just my opinion and it sounds like the movie, how it is, worked well for you. So good for you :)

reply


s1106634 writes: "I don't understand what that pictures meant to show me."

There are four things to notice about that cap:

1) How the girls are positioned, Jennifer's head to the right, Needy's head to the left, and Needy's leg bent -- they suggest a heart, which of course was what their pendants were.

2) The angel statue behind Jennifer

3) The artistic draping of Jennifer's Body (pun seriously intended here)

4) Jennifer's mom, who makes an appearance only for this scene, and no other.

The scene is a pieta.

Jennifer's initials are J. C. (Jennifer Check), she's speared in the side, she's "tortured" by Roman, Needy's mom makes the sign of the cross when she says "J.C.", she recieves a Judas Kiss from the friend that causes her death, she saves Needy and the boys in the town from the demon when she ceases to fight Needy.

The subversive Feminist message of the allegory: God is Female.



"Maybe it's another dimension. Or, you know, just really deep." --Needy

reply

I don't see a heart in that picture and I just clicked on the link again to try and see it (I even tried squinting)

That doesn't look much like artistic draping, although it does look rather (I don't know how to put it) traditional? (sort of like a pieta) But the reason for that doesn't seem placing so much as that in that scene the mother has her arm under Jennifer's waist lifting her up so her chest is popping and her head tilted back slightly, creating more of a damsel in distress look in that one screenshot (if you can ignore Jennifer's nipples)

The fact that Jennifer's mother only shows up here told me that either; she's not a very good mother, or they only wrote her in for this scene and felt they didn't need her (or have time or the will to create a storyline/script/character development for her)in the rest of the film. Maybe if they had given the mother a bit more room and created an almost Carrie like relationship between Jennifer and her mother, it might have been a little more noteworthy that she's now showing concern and maternal instinct.

You do create a good argument ill give you that :)
But, alas, I do think there could be improvements.
I've seen the film a couple of times and although things in films certainly shouldn't be all spelled out for the audience, I shouldn't have had to come online for some of the possible symbolism Cody was trying to get across to be explained to me.

I think Diablo Cody occasionally makes the mistake of writing Diablo Cody lingo rather than what the character would say, which happened a couple of times in this and it jerked me out of the film.

I feel like im beating a dead horse now but I have to mention this especially. If all or at least most of the pieces of a film are put together well it can make you believe anything (rapist aliens, terminators, monsters, wizards etc.)
Fox's acting isn't good enough, certainly compared to Mr Bays creations this is probably the best thing she's been in (and will be in, but whenever she started speaking I started cringing, and again, it jerked me out of the film for a couple of minutes 'cause I didn't believe a word she said.

Thank you for your explanations though :)

reply


s1106634 writes: "...traditional? (sort of like a pieta)..."

I would say that the angel statue confirms that the draping isn't co-incidental.

s1106634 writes: "I shouldn't have had to come online for some of the possible symbolism..."

Well, she did say it was hidden!

s1106634 writes: "If all or at least most of the pieces of a film are put together well it can make you believe anything..."

Right. I've seen the film many times myself, and I've noticed about 50 Christian symbols or personifications. So, I'd say it was a Christian allegory.

s1106634 writes: "Thank you for your explanations though :)"

You're welcome. I was happy to share with you.




"Maybe it's another dimension. Or, you know, just really deep." --Needy

reply

Dude, 'hidden' doesn't mean 'unable to find'.

There are hundreds of films that have hidden symbolism, but if you look (maybe a little closely) at the film you can still find it even in films you wouldn't really expect to have it;
in Alien the most obvious symbolism is about rape and birth
Aliens is a metaphor for the Vietnam war
X-men is about gay rights
no country for old men is about retirement
The Big Lebowski is about the male fear of castration,
the LOTR's trilogy is about Christianity and Catholicism,
Spider-man is about adolescence and fear of adulthood
Top Gun is about homosexuality (maybe that one was a little more obvious)
In Donnie Darko the Asian girl (Cherita Chen) is symbolised as an angel

Yes, an overweight Asian girl who rarely speaks in Donnie Darko was more obvious as a possible guardian angel, than Megan fox sticking her tongue into peoples mouths for 102 minutes.

Im not saying the whole film is bad but different things stick out in films to different people, and I think Jennifer's body is trying to be too much at one time and with a script that falters at moments and some subpar acting, for me at least, any symbolism wasnt done justice, or at least not as much as it could have done. If I was the only one there wouldn't be a thread on imdb of people getting confused over it.

Despite the fact that we disagree, you are one of the most civil people ive spoken to imdb so thank you :)

reply

As the director and writer are feminist and have said this is a feminist film it is and it reeks of it.
"Cody said she wanted the film to speak to female empowerment and explore the complex relationships between best friends.[5] "(Director) Karyn Kusama and I are both outspoken feminists", she said. "We wanted to subvert the classic horror model of women being terrorized. I want to write roles that service women. I want to tell stories from a female perspective. I want to create good parts for actresses where they're not just accessories to men."

Has she not seen a horror film in the past 40 years. Or any film. Every film is about female empowering and the way they show this is by having idiot horny men for women to act superior too and be treat with a level of chauvinism and violence these same women would condemn if the sexes were reversed.

Horror is all about female empowerment. Women killing men and that being a positive message. Rising up against evil men and putting them in their place if that place is 6 feet under.

There are no male heroes in horror anymore. No final guys only final girls. When we get a woman going round killing men like in this film it's a woman who stops her not a man. It's a woman that saves the man not the other way round.

The problem with feminist is they see themselves as victims and will distort reality to suit their prejudices and justify their hypocrisy in treating men the same way they condemn men treating women and this film is a prime example of it.

No wonder they call themselves FEMale chauvINIST.
How often do we see films where a wrong woman goes round killing any man she can because of something a man once did to her and then getting away with it?

Now how often do we seem a man going round killing every women he can because he was wronged by a woman and getting away with it and it being a positive message?

Feminist must hate this film because they are always saying how they don't like men portraying the opposite sex in a derogatory and violence against the opposite sex is wrong they themselves could not support something which women portray the opposite sex in a derogatory way and would never condone violence against the opposite sex? Or are they lying self-serving hypocrites?

reply

I'm female, and I enjoyed this movie for what it was, an entertaining high school horror with some funny one liners. I found the most disturbing part to be the snapshots at the end of the band murders, mirroring some very similar real life shots I've seen in the dark side of the web; I don't read into it as deep as others, especially the Christian allegory stuff. I can see the references though, Jesus Christ JC = Jennifer Check, Jonas, Collin etc, it's there if you are looking for it.

reply

I never used to think about sexism here in Britain until I started to read comment sections online. Then I found it odd how I could be reading an article about the weather and there would be at least one person using it as an excuse to whinge on about feminists.

I've never experienced it in real life, but maybe they're wife beaters with nobody to beat, so they use the internet to spread their abuse? Or maybe they're from another culture I don't understand?

I turned over the movie because it seemed to be another droll USA high school show, where in the first 15 mins she was wondering if a male she liked had been genitally mutilated.

reply