I guess I'm just confused as to why you were giving the OP a hard time over his inclusion of the gun handover scene since it is indeed a clue that Chuck is not really a Marshal.
But the clue only really works in the TiA scenario.
I agree with your first statement. Completely disagree with the second.
In either scenario, TiA or TiT, Sheenan is posing as a Marshall. I give the OP a hard time on this point because he only looks at this fact from one angle. He views Sheenan posing as a Marshall as definitive proof that it is TiA. Wrong. It works perfectly find in TiT as well. What are Sheena's intentions role playing as a Marshall? If it's TiA, he's doing it to help and guide Andrew through the experiment. If it's TiT, he's doing it to deceive Teddy.
No I'm not.I was asking you what you think the scenario is.
I believe that Teddy has been on the island for some time and the doctors have been experimenting on him. When it doesn't stick, they start the experiment over again until it does. By the end of the film, they resign to the fact that it won't work. It only temporarily sticks, so they give him a lobotomy.
Note how I said "I believe". I am in no way saying this is the only explanation. I fully subscribe to TiA as well. It's a completely reasonable view point. Trying to find the end-all-be-all definitive explanation of the film is a useless task. There is no answer. That's the whole friggin' point of the movie. Starts with a question. Ends with a question.
This is what the film quite clearly states and in that understanding Andrew has been a patient for two years.
This is what Dr. Cawley clearly states. If you believe every word out of his mouth, that's fine. I don't.
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Dazed_are_numbered
8 years ago
Nice to see you again after a six week gap!
OK so I've had to re read the thread.
What I was asking you was In my last post I asked why Dr.Sheehan pretending to be a Marshal would help brainwash anyone,what are they trying to make him believe?
I really want to get to the bottom of this,I have considered your dual interpretation idea but it comes up wanting.
In a TiT scenario (I'm assuming) the idea is that he is brainwashed into believing he is really Andrew Laeddis.Is that correct?
So my question is surely in order to do that they would need for Dr.Sheehan to be..well Dr.Sheehan.
Since Andrews story is of a prisoner/patient of Shutter island.
I cannot for the life of me understand how reinforcing a potential brainwashing subjects real life story helps brainwash him.
In other words,if he IS Teddy,where do we see them brainwashing him into believing he is Andrew?
Also,if he IS Teddy why does he calmly walk to his lobotomy? Surely he's a man who would stop at nothing to expose the "evil doctors"?
Also,if he IS Teddy and he's been there two years being experimented on.How come nobody is looking for him? Why is he there,what was his crime,and why has he been there two years? What about the anagrams? Are we to believe that his wife was actually murdered by a man whose name was an anagram of his own? And what of Rachel Solando,another coincidence?
Why would the doctors choose a subject who would be missed.
I would seriously love these questions answered by someone who believes the TiT interpretation is a valid one.
The most important question and one I'll unashamedly reiterate is this.
How does playing along with a real mans,real situation convince him he is someone else?
Although there's been rain and it's coming again
Change has to be here obviously
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gleamy-jog
8 years ago
I'm going to butt in because you guys keep asking the same questions as if these questions haven't been answered over and over.
Why do you think that Sheehan not being a marshal only works if Teddy is Andrew? Do you not understand why that isn't the case at all? I don't know anyone who thinks that Sheehan is really his partner. There are ways to make a case for that, I guess, but the simplest explanation is that Ashecliffe and the US Marshals Service are both agencies in the Justice Department which makes luring Teddy to the island with a fake new partner plausible and no one will come looking for him because it is an inside job. Without any close family to ask questions, Teddy would be an ideal target to disappear into a black ops program - become a "ghost".
https://ccrjustice.org/home/get-involved/tools-resources/fact-sheets-and-faqs/faqs-what-are-ghost-detentions-and-black
That is one of the more clever details in Lehane's story - he could have had Teddy be a state police or journalist or had Ashecliffe be a state psych hospital, but he didn't. If it were a case of separate agencies/entities not knowing what the other agencies are up to then it would be harder to pull off. But in this case, the highest law enforcement agency in the country would be carrying out what is essentially an inside job. No one will come looking for Teddy. At the highest levels (probably the A.G. of the U.S.), they know where Teddy is because they set it up.
Cawley wasn't afraid of what would happen if law enforcement knew what he was doing. He had that covered because he works for law enforcement, and they are supporting what he is doing. He is afraid of the PUBLIC finding out because that is what they would all fear most - the court of public opinion.
I do think that a lot of the misunderstandings about the movie stem from the idea that if Cawley is doing unethical experiments then he is a hand wringing mad scientist, and that there is an unlikely "conspiracy", when in fact, he is just an ambitious man who rationalizes his unethical and illegal experiments as being for the greater good - and there is no conspiracy so much as that there are a lot of folks just doing their jobs.
Are they slow? Yeah, they're dead. They're all messed up.
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the-author
8 years ago
no one will come looking for him
Sorry, that's not logical. Everyone would be looking for him.
there is no conspiracy
Right, because Teddy just imagines there is one.
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gleamy-jog
8 years ago
No one will look for him. His bosses at the marshals would be told whatever they needed to know and that would be that. Unless he has some family that could stir up a stink, no one will look for him. They know where he is.
If we know anything it is that the experiment they do on Teddy is unethical. I don't think Teddy ever suspected a conspiracy at all. He suspected unethical experiments, but that isn't the same as a conspiracy.
Are they slow? Yeah, they're dead. They're all messed up.
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OddsAreIAmRight
8 years ago
His bosses at the marshals would be told whatever they needed to know and that would be that.
In the fantastical, horribly plotted world where this movie is a real marshal investigation, then maybe that is the working assumption when a marshal goes missing.
But in a good movie, if that was the real plot, the writers would need to explain why the entire US marshal's office would be so corrupted or cowardly. Because the idea that law enforcement men just look the other way when one of their own is harmed is completely irrational.
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the-author
8 years ago
No one will look for him.
Wrong. the US marshalls would look for him.
He was given an assignment and didn't return? Of course they would come out and rescue him.
Unless he has some family
Duh. Of course he has family.
the experiment they do on Teddy is unethical
role-playing is not unethical. It is a kind treatment.
I'm role-playing with you right now, treating you as a sane person.
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gleamy-jog
8 years ago
I said why they wouldn't look for him. You are ignoring my answer. I mean, I notice that you make no attempt to explain why my explanation is wrong. Because you can't.
We don't know that Teddy has any close family. If you are presuming he does, then you are presuming something that isn't suggested in the movie.
They aren't "role-playing". Teddy thinks it is real. And anything that is done without consent is unethical no matter what it is called. The "role-play" is unethical in its very concept because it depends on him not knowing what is going on. It is also unethical if it is called "treatment". If they are his doctors it is a serious breach of trust - can't punk your patients. It is mentally harmful and abusive. Teddy isn't playing a role - he thinks it is real. Any role-play therapy is means that the patient is playing a role - not the actors around him who are deceiving him.
If they were serious about saving him from a lobotomy, then they didn't have to lobotomize him EVER. So, that is a bogus justification for the "role-play" gaslighting as far as I'm concerned.
And the movie never says who Teddy really is so to assume otherwise is to assume something that is never verified as true in the movie.
Are they slow? Yeah, they're dead. They're all messed up.
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the-author
8 years ago
I said why they wouldn't look for him
If an officer went missing on an assignment, there would definitely be a team sent out to investigate, find, or rescue him. to believe that the doctors would report to the mainland that he went insane suddenly and was going to stay at the facility would never work, except in your fan-fiction version of this film.
You are ignoring my answer
No, I dismiss it as nonsense. Big diffeerence.
If you are presuming (Teddy has family), then you are presuming something that isn't suggested in the movie.
Every child born has parents. You are presuming Teddy is an orphan, something that is not suggested in the movie, but only in your fan-fiction version.
They aren't "role-playing". Teddy thinks it is real.
Teddy is acting on a delusion. The staff is role-playing with him to let the situation play itself out. The patient eventually reaches an illogical wall and often reverts back to his real persona. This is a very ethical treatment.
the movie never says who Teddy really is
It certainly does tell us who he really is.
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Dazed_are_numbered
8 years ago
. to believe that the doctors would report to the mainland that he went insane suddenly
It may have gone something like this...
"Hi,is that the office of the US Marshals?
Hmm yes its Dr.Cawley of Ashcliffe here..yes that's me bald and sinister and yes the German guy works here too but we don't advertise that LOL!
Anyhoo,you know that Daniels chap you sent here to investigate the Solando case? Sweaty guy,looks a bit like Leo DiCaprio? Well he's gone a bit doolally so we've decided to keep him here,hmm hmm no problem okay.
What? Oh no don't send another, turns out Solando was here hiding in a cave pretending to be a doctor all the time!
Ha ha! Yes I did literally roll on the floor laughing!
Okay well thanks,pip pip toodle oo"
Although there's been rain and it's coming again
Change has to be here obviously
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the-author
8 years ago
Ha ha! Yes I did literally roll on the floor laughing!
Me too, but she (GJ) firmly believes it. (Or that the US Marshalls actually sent him there to be kidnapped and detained as an insane man and brainwash him using cigarettes and 'unethical' role-play.)
She's never given any iota of proof, just her fictitious version of the story she's brainwashed herself into believing.
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OddsAreIAmRight
8 years ago
He views Sheenan posing as a Marshall as definitive proof that it is TiA.
Where is that claimed?
The gun fumble just shows Sheehan is posing as a Marshall. Fun to know that when watching a second time.
OTOH, if Teddy isn't a patient, why would they need to make a missing doctor into a pretend partner? They could have used one of the warden's men for more realism.
I believe that Teddy has been on the island for some time and the doctors have been experimenting on him.
Their experiment is what? To make him think he is really a patient that believes he is a marshall? What does that have to do with making mindless ghosts for killing, which is what the cave lady says?
It only temporarily sticks, so they give him a lobotomy.
If it doesn't stick and Teddy knows he's Teddy again, why does he forget that Sheehan isn't Chuck?
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