MovieChat Forums > Blue Valentine (2011) Discussion > Kind of surprised by all the anti-Cindy ...

Kind of surprised by all the anti-Cindy sentiment

posted 11 years ago by seraph33
42 replies | jump to latest

First of all I think the reasons the marriage (Cindy and Dean) failed are pretty balanced. I'm not getting the "Cindy's a messed up *bleep*" and "Dean was the sweetest" sentiment. I thought there really wasn't a "bad guy" to blame the entirety of the failed relationship on. This seemed like a story of two people who did love each other and because of a traumatic event (pregnancy-aborted abortion/Dean getting beat up) got swept up in the emotion without completely thinking things through. Two people that met each other at the right time, but weren't the most compatible overall. Obviously Cindy's character needs/craves intimacy and thus needed someone like Dean to go through the pregnancy and escape from Bobby. Dean like-wise was able to feel like the hero and shelter Cindy through the storm.

Cindy was resentful towards Dean (likely because of his lack of ambition and alcoholism). Cindy was probably more prepared to leave the relationship than Dean at the point in the film where the audience picks of up, but what I think ultimately killed their relationship was a lack of communication. Cindy internalized things and let her feelings build up inside instead of openly discussing them. Dean on the other hand seems so insecure and defensive, he is unable to carry any serious discussion without becoming angry or dishing out accusations. In fact the one time a serious discussion was attempted in the movie in a calm manner (when Cindy asks what Dean wants to do with his life), Dean immediately becomes defensive and thus ends any chance of overcoming a problem. As the story goes on, Deans outbursts become more violent and immature, culminating in the office argument. Additionally Dean can't seem to give Cindy space as evident at the end of the film but also in the scene where Cindy wants to tell Dean about the pregnancy but isn't ready (so Dean threatens to jump off the bridge unless she tells them). He feels the need to dictate terms. Dean's attempts to bring romance back into the relationship revolve around "getting drunk and making love" again using alcohol to fix his problems.

Again Cindy also demonstrates poor communication like when she leaves Dean in the hotel, but on the whole these interactions are give and take, with both characters routinely doing things that inflame the situation as opposed to fixing it.

I don't see how you can give Dean a free pass for how poorly he communicates and his outbursts. Yes he loved her, but that doesn't excuse the immature actions he takes at the end of the movie. This isn't to say he is the bad guy. He's just as much the antagonist as he is the victim.

[–] blueathena623 11 years ago

There are a few people on this board who agree with you, me being one of them. As I've said before, I think people think des is a good guy because he portrays more of a traditional Hollywood romantic with his devil may care love at first sight attitude. Think of The Notebook, another Gosling movie where he plays a similar character. But this movie isn't supposed to be like The Notebook, where a guy can just express his love and pine and brood and everything comes out hunky dory (minus the Alzheimer's bit or whatever). And in real life. If you have a partner that does t help around the house and is at least mildly abusive and an alcoholic, he's not that great of a guy.

Actually, o e of those most distressing scenes for me is the conversation in the car, because they just cannot communicate and they are both so distressed about it. Cindy should not have talked to bobby (or at least put him in his place about the faithful thing) but Dean twists everything she says.

[–] the amorphousmachine 11 years ago

Cindy couldn't put Bobby in his place. According to Bobby's mind, Cindy got pregnant with Dean when they were together. Hence the question about being faithful...he was bitter. Ironically, we was wearing a world's greatest dad cap when she saw him again, but im guessing Cindy never told him about the baby being his.

[–] daiofhope 11 years ago

In the scene at the motel Cindy is asking Dean why he is not doing anything about himself, like pursue the career or realizes his capacities. That could give a viewer the wrong message about her attitude towards him: it seems like if Dean had the ambitions and went forward with them that would make her happy with their marriage ,which is elusive.
Dean was like a blessing in her life but she was unable to appreciate and love him because appreciation and gentleness were missing in her previous life with her mother and father. Her father, in fact, had not respected her mother . That , in turn, had taught her not to respect her own spouse.
Somebody here has suggested that he was a kid while she was an adult. I would not grade them like that. I do not think that Dean, when having fun with the cereal while not really listening to Cindy’s directions, is disrespectful or childish. He made his daughter happy and wanted her to finish the breakfast that Cindy made with no enthusiasm and care. He had used his way of dealing with the child: he is flexible and creative. He showed respect, responsibility, flexibility and creativity in many situation in that film, while Cindy had been showing lack of care and responsibility of herself and others.
Besides, the young and adult Cindy is lack of communication skills: she is not able to communicate clearly what she wants and how she feels. Her intelligence level is lower than his despite the fact that she went to the medical school and he just picked up different jobs to support the family.
When Cindy and Dean got to meet each other in the bus her behavior gave me the idea that she was going through her depression state because of all men who she was in the relationships with. Anybody think that a girl who had 25 men since the age 13 can be remained without mental illness? She will need years after years to recover after all of them.
So in my opinion, Cindy’s immaturity and the mental state made their marriage taken apart. Dean deserves love, respect and care. He will meet tonnes of girls who will value him for what he is.

[–] FooserX 11 years ago

Good post Daiofhope.

I'd also like to add that Dean was immature and a romantic. He talked about Cindy being his soulmate, and love at first sight. He dove into a girl that had issues getting close, and that's all it takes for a marriage to fail.

They weren't meant to be with each other, but they forced it and gave it their best shot. Well at least Dean did...Cindy didn't really look like she put too much into the marriage.

X

[–] sabar-1 9 years ago

He was a good guy and a good dad but he didn't value Cindy as her own person. She attempts to tell him that she does not want to go to the motel and that she is on call the next day and he basically forces her into it. When she TRIES to communicate with him, she doesn't get thru because he ensures it by talkingtalkingtalkingtalking over her.

There were other seemingly small things - such as, he blamed her for the dog getting out even while she was weeping over it. He made her feel like crap because she told him she saw Bobby in the store - something she had no control over - even though she thought she was doing the right thing by telling him.

🐈 Rachel

[–] SureJan 11 years ago

I agree with OP. The more "pro-dean" comments I read, the more it makes me think that people who identify w dean are really defending themselves.
Also, why are those (women, particularly) who see dean as a less-than-desirable partner deemed as shallow?
Oh I'm sorry if I don't want to be in a relationship with an alcoholic slacker who has temper problems... Geez.

[–] regexfan 11 years ago

Couldn't agree with you more.

[–] gregoryhuffman 10 years ago

How was he a slacker? Yes the alcoholism was bad, but it wasn't like he just sat on his ass eating froot loops.

[–] El_Jefe 9 years ago

Also, why are those (women, particularly) who see dean as a less-than-desirable partner deemed as shallow?

Oh I'm sorry if I don't want to be in a relationship with an alcoholic slacker who has temper problems

1) He wasn't an alcoholic. Yes, he drank a beer on the way to work. Why? Because he can. If you can support a family with a job where you get to have a beer buzz and go Zen all day, why not? What is inherently wrong with that? I saw no evidence of negative consequences from his drinking, so where's the alcoholism?

2) He was a great father, and his only focus in life was to care for and provide for his family. Take for example the breakfast scene. She doesn't even know how to feed her child, and all she does is brood over how miserable she is! Meanwhile, he's trying his best to create a positive and loving environment.

All she did was feel sorry for herself, while all he did was work to provide for his family. He was constantly trying to be positive and create pleasant interactions with his wife and child. She was constantly snarky, negative, and pushing her stress on everyone around her. She was emotionally shut down, refused to communicate, and relentlessly shifted blame onto him.

By the way, I think his character was a weirdo, and obviously a slacker, but he was devoted and loving. She was simply re-creating the hostile environment she grew up in, and holding him responsible for her own failure to achieve her goals. He never wanted to be a professional musician, but *she* wanted to be a doctor. She failed, he didn't.

[–] Gabe1972 9 years ago

Agreed.

They both had many problems, but Dean was a slug. Hopefully she can pull her life together and do what's best for her child.

The plural of mouse is mice. The plural of goose is geese. Why is the plural of moose not meese?

[–] ivitt 9 years ago

Dean is emasculated as hell. Women don't want that kind of man.

[–] Gabe1972 9 years ago

Yes, he's emasculated, and Cindy isn't exactly a great person, but a lot of what he does he does to himself. His drinking and the stupid things he does because of it isn't her fault. He gets extremely jealous, and I certainly wouldn't be surprised if he would eventually start to hit her, if he hadn't already.

The whole situation is awful, and they should NEVER have gotten together in the first place. But, very few of us can say that we have never been in a relationship that ended badly. Maybe not like this, but badly to some extent.

"Well, the world needs ditch diggers, too."

[–] ceth26 7 years ago

The more "pro-dean" comments I read, the more it makes me think that people who identify w dean are really defending themselves.



^^^^^^^^THIS. F-CKING THIS RIGHT HERE.^^^^^^^^^

Without going into any detail, one of my previous jobs involved dealing with people in abusive or dysfunctional relationships/marriages, and while watching this film my mouth was agape at how accurately it presented Dean's abusive behaviour. The guy gives off so many warning signs that he could be a textbook case study; he's a walking, talking red flag.

This thread has mentioned most of his f-ckery, but in my view the most illuminating incident is the one by the train tracks; I'll put it as simply as I can: if your partner starts threatening to hurt or kill himself to force you into doing something they want, THEY ARE AN ABUSER AND YOU NEED TO GET THE F-CK OUT OF THERE. We don't see what happens immediately afterwards, but I'd bet my whole year's salary that he pulled some manipulative "see what you're doing to me?" bullsh-t that turned the blame onto her. Just because he can be goofy and tender and softly-spoken does NOT make him any less toxic.

Anyway, regarding the subject of thread, it's clear that misogyny plays a HUGE role in peoples' perceptions of Cindy and Dean. Female characters are always held to a wholly different standard, and the IMDb boards are no exception. It comes from the exact same place as the "Skyler White is soooooo much worse than Walt I hope she dies screaming" or "Sansa Stark is such a dumb little bitch c-nt and I'm glad she got raped" nonsense that drove me to leave the Breaking Bad and Game of Thrones fandoms (despite those being two of my favourite shows ever). Cindy is absolutely a hugely flawed human being with a litany of deep-seated issues, but she's still a far better person than Dean and anyone who tries to argue otherwise is instantly suspect in my eyes.

TL;DR version: Dean is a toxic, drunken, violent & abusive manchild and Cindy & her family are well rid of him.

[–] Princess_Ashmi 11 years ago

Exactly! Anyone who thinks that Dean was without fault is clearly just a love-sick, teenage, Ryan Gos fanbot.

Ashmi any question

[–] T-eschberger 11 years ago

I don't see anybody saying Dean was saint and did no wrong. I see people watching the film and making up their own minds on the characters.

I personally don't see how anybody can say Dean is the worse of the two. I don't think he's perfect at all, but he sure as hell is better than his bitter, dull, resentful, closed-off wife.

People always bring Deans "alcoholism" as one of the biggest offenses. I don't think the director did a good enough job of stating he has a drinking problem if it was supposed to be an issue at all. There is the one scene where Cindy says he has beers in the morning at work that indicates a drinking "problem" but it was never shown to affect his parenthood or home life in any way. Ya, he showed up drunk off his ass at her job. Yes, it was wrong. Wrong on all levels-but at that point its UNDERSTANDABLE why he did it. He just spent a whole night trying to mend his marriage, trying to get his wife to just RESPOND to him and she acts like the most passive aggressive bitch in the world and LEAVES him at the hotel without a ride or a note.

I personally don't find Cindy's disappoint with Deans job/career justifiable what so ever. It was never stated he disliked his job. Nor was it stated that they are struggling because of his lack of ambition. it's clearly projection on her part. Obvious, OBVIOUS projection. If he is happy with what he is doing and he is making a decent living doing it, who the f-ck is she to chastise him for it?

Like I said, he isn't perfect nor would I ever argue he is. He tends to go from 2 to 10 in an argument very fast and let his emotions take over and he goes on the defensive way to quickly. His way of dealing with his and her emotional stress is immature and never helped matters. But she was just a callous, withholding bitch the whole movie. I mean christ, she barely even looked happy at their own wedding. Where Dean was just thrilled. She started resenting him/feeling trapped before they were even married for crying out loud! She's incapable of love.

[–] pofpm 11 years ago

Completely agreed. I would just like to add that Dean getting defensive quickly is also understandable. Their arguments aren't happening for the first time. They have likely been going on for years now. By now he is probably sick and tired of her passive aggressive behavior and unrealistic expectations and can see them coming a mile away.

[–] zoso_uk 11 years ago

To an emotionally fragile person, like Cindy was, the last thing you need is a man-sized child who is incapable of communicating. People (younger people usually lol) tend to think there is always a good guy and a bad guy when relationships break down, and it's very rarely true. Dean really loved his wife, but a lot of his overtures you could tell would never come to fruition. Telling someone 'I love you, I'll do anything for you' sounds really romantic in movies, but as someone who's been in a real life relationship for the past 16 years let me tell you; romance is the surface, and I couldn't be less interested in how many times he says ILY. It's the everyday support and emotional presence that makes a relationship last, not the pretty surface Hollywood stuff. For instance, my best friend was telling me about how her husband will coast through their life for a couple of months, and then when he thinks she's had just about enough of that he'll spring a weekend away on her, or buy her flowers, but that's not what she wants, or needs. What she needs (what a lot of women want and need from their partner IMO) is someone who will do the little things. It sounds silly, but I would much rather my partner remember to buy milk or take the rubbish out to the bin without me having to ask, or bring me a cup of tea because he thinks I might want one, or tapes a programme for me on TV when I'm not around because he thinks I might be interested - I'd much rather he think of my needs and wants in the way I think of his needs and wants every day, than coast through our lives without sparing me a thought and then bring out the big grand gesture that melts like ice-cream after a day or two. That's the difference between Hollywood and real life. And that's why these two characters couldn't be together. He didn't get that, and she'd grown beyond the point of caring to tell him.

I did not hit you. I simply high-fived your face.

[–] pofpm 11 years ago

And what little things did she do for him? If anything it seemed he did more for her than vice versa.

[–] sehlee 10 years ago

She did comfort hi when he was crying after burying the dog. He did not do the same for her when she showed up to the daughter's play Ai tears in her eyes.

[–] pofpm 10 years ago

You have to be one cold person to think that one reluctant hug after someone buries their dog BECAUSE YOU LEFT THE DOOR OPEN... counts as sufficient intimacy/comfort. I feel sorry for the loved ones in your life.

[–] washcloud 8 years ago

You have to be one cold person to think that one reluctant hug after someone buries their dog BECAUSE YOU LEFT THE DOOR OPEN... counts as sufficient intimacy/comfort.

...stupid is the word. Not cold.

Memory is a wonderful thing if you don't have to deal with the past

[–] regexfan 11 years ago

I so agree with you, zoso_uk. I noticed people here on the board always take sides, like either they're pro-dean or pro-cindy, and that's really funny to me. This movie isn't a superhero movie, you don't need to pick out who the good guy or the bad guy is. I love how realistic the movie is. That's just how relationships are in real life, you know. Real relationships aren't like what you saw on The Notebook, get that right or you'll be disappointed. :)

[–] kittyli_82 10 years ago

******emphatic agreement!!!!!******** to zoso!

[–] Hyman_Flomax 11 years ago

I would just like to add that Dean getting defensive quickly is also understandable.

No, it isn't. It's a sign of immaturity in anyone.

[–] pofpm 11 years ago

I disagree. Everyone runs out of patience eventually when faced with constant *beep*

[–] Hyman_Flomax 11 years ago

Dean turned out to be a loser despite his best intentions. He is not a victim in any sense of the word. He's a bum and is likely to stay that way. The anti-Cindy sentiment seems more like an indication of sexism than an honest evaluation of the predicament in this film.

[–] T-eschberger 10 years ago

How in the world is Dean a bum? Because he's happy with his job as a painter? If he likes what he does and can make a decent living out of it who the hell are you or Cindy to say otherwise? Does everybody need to have aspirations of grandeur and million dollar bills in their dreams to be successful?

I love the cries of sexism. It's so funny. Any time a woman in one of these films comes under any sort of criticism people cry SEXISM!!!!!! Give me a break.

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[–] kittyli_82 10 years ago

I totally agree with the OP as well. This movie is one of the few times where they portray a broken relationship that isn't the result of any big mistake by any one character. I agree it is about their inability to communicate and they really seem to be speaking different languages. When that happens you can agree with each other and still end up in a fight.

I feel for Cindy. She's tired and feels like she's taking care of two kids. She can't talk to her husband because he get's defensive and accusatory. This disconnects her from him because she doesn't feel she can talk to him and their sex life suffers.

I feel for Dean too. He hasn't changed much from his younger days, so he loves his wife and he's a bit of a goofball. He thinks he's being there for his wife and Frankie and he doesn't know what Cindy needs because she doesn't tell him. In addition he doesn't understand why she doesn't want to be physical with him which leads him to feel rejected and leaves everybody angry.

It seems so simple, that all the issues could be worked out if they could just talk to each other, but they can't and everything just keeps spiraling. Cindy didn't even feel able to talk about the job offer.

It's really sad for me how it ends because I see myself and my boyfriend a lot in Cindy and Dean (but with the issues and personalities properly mixed) - a lot of times I think, if only he could read my mind and understand where I'm coming from and vice versa. I hope it doesn't reach a point where I say I'm done and I have nothing else to give.

But I personally think this movie gave a really realistic snapshot in the lives of this couple and how two people who clearly love each other can still fall to pieces.

[–] sehlee 10 years ago

I definitely agree as well.
This movie might be one of the best portrayal of a realistic relationship in a movie.

[–] thrasherjohnson256 8 years ago

I completely agree with you. It's an entirely objective portrait of two under-developed human beings.

I'm going to take a bit of a leap and say that most women (in my experience, at least) have an innate desire to delve inward, learn, and grow. This is a reaction to serious societal oppression; Cindy's reception of Dean's humorless stereotypes about women are a great example.

I see Cindy as an insecure girl trying very hard to secure her ideals of womanhood; to obtain social applause. Without her father's support or her mother's presence, I think being studious (studying medicine and physical disabilities), was a means to a more developed version of herself. I appreciate this. It shows a genuine concern for the human condition.

She attracts Dean, who does not share this sort of yearning to know (or grow) oneself. She settles for his blind devotion to her, probably thinking that puppy-love can substitute a seriously gratifying (and ambitious, in her case,) partnership. What she ends up with is, as she puts it, "two kids." Someone who is not willing to undertake the hardest part of parenthood, namely, discipline. Someone who would sooner teach their daughter to eat raisins off of the table surface than show her how to be taken seriously.

And yes, I would pity someone like this. Yes, I would become disillusioned. Yes, I would refuse to sleep with him. I find it very hard to pity someone who refuses to grasp concepts outside of their comfort zone, or look for gratification outside of his family. She wanted someone worldly and developed, and she got a defensive child.

But, y'know, he has his issues too.

[–] pery-1 10 years ago

My sympathy is all with her. She gets a job. He can't hold one. He's an abusive loser. She finally has enough and gets out.

[–] sehlee 10 years ago

The fault definitely belongs to both and the issues they face is very realistic to many couples, especially the ones that get married early.
The problem lies in that many women get married hoping the guy WILL change while the guys get married hoping the girl WILL NOT change.
He is an immature, over emotional (can't remember how many times he cried during the movie) guy with no drive but she knew all this going into the relationship. When they were having dinner with her parents and when dean was talking about dropping out of high school and how it was never meant for him, she was sitting next to him smiling and thinking it was cute.
Realistically, it is hard to just pick one side like it is one Preston's fault.

[–] gouebaultjeff 9 years ago

No Drive cuz hes not mister money bags? The guy is a good dad, he tried harder than her who makes her kid *beep* ass oatmeal that a dog wouldn't eat. He states hes happy being a husband and father. Is that not good enough ?

It both they're fault... however AT LEAST ONE never stop trying the other just cant stand her life, can't even be assed to make her kid porridge... she wont kiss the dude, refuses him sex most of the time, shows 0 affection and all the guy wants is precisely that. I understand that he's not the sexiest man alive was his painting job and small ambition but so what?

She does very little to nothing for him, in fact i seem him constantly picking up the pieces of his broken heart and trying to give it a go with a clean slate while she represses everything. It's a mess of a relationship :/

[–] sehlee 9 years ago

I agree he is portrayed in the movie as a nice guy who loves his daughter. However, just because he makes his daughter breakfast makes him a good dad and husband means we have differing views of what makes a good father. No one wanted him to be mr. Money bags. The problem was that he never grew up. You are right, he was happy just being a father and husband. But he did not work on being a better husband. If he was really listening to Cindy and how she felt, things might not have escalated this far. If he had actually listened to Cindy and paid attention to what she wanted, he could/would have taken classes at night or something to satisfy his wife and to set a better example to his daughter. I don't believe him being proud of being a high school dropout is setting a good example for his child. Instead, he put himself ahead of his daughter AND his wife by being content with where he was if life. Like I said before, they are both at fault and Cindy is far from perfect. However, both parties need to go outside of their comfort zone and do things they normally wouldn't do to make a relationship work. I'm not offended if you disagree but I'm just explaining my reasoning for my views.

[–] T-eschberger 10 years ago

Ya, no.

[–] 10 years ago

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