After watching it the 2nd time I've decided Cindy's a total b*tch - Blue Valentine (2011) Discussion

[–] hellfire1 11 years ago

then watching her treat him like crap as the years go on

Except you don't watch her treat him like crap "as the years go on", you see two people treating each other very poorly during the last two days of their marriage. That's it. You can only assume what went on during the 6 years before that breaking point.

Thug means never having to say you're sorry.

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[–] siamese_eyes1983 11 years ago

True. And of course we can all assume he kind of let himself go in appearance, lifestyle, etc. and I'm sure this bothered her as it would bother anybody. But I think he let himself go BECAUSE of her. Deep down he knew not when they married but after the child was born and so forth that he was being sued to provide a safety net. Sure she ended up making more money than he and having the better job but she probably didn't get that til a couple years after Frankie was born we can assume. And she started to see she didn't need his safety net anymore and that heh was more of a problem with his own flaws and immaturity than he was worth. At the same time, he had his flaws but he didn't try to work on them bc he was depressed deep down knowing he married a woman in a heartbeat bc he thought she was "the one" bc of these strong feelings he had for her and bc secretly, subconsciously, he'd always been looking for a mother figure for himself as he grew up without one. Yet knowing that she had married him bc she was scared to be alone and be a single mom to another man's child, not bc of any love she had for him.

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[–] hellfire1 11 years ago

Deep down he knew not when they married but after the child was born and so forth that he was being sued to provide a safety net.

Sure, I can see that. But remember he volunteered himself to be the safety net. He wanted to be her harbour in the storm when he told her "Let's do it. Let's get married and be a family." He knew what he was getting into. He wasn't that naive. See the wedding scene where he wants it to be done already before she changes her mind (his words). And so she clung on to him.

Dean's over romanticized view on love got the better of him and he came down from that cloud very hard.

Thug means never having to say you're sorry.

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[–] siamese_eyes1983 11 years ago

But she took advantage of a vulnerable man, a childlike man who grew up motherless and had many of his own underlying issues that stemmed from his childhood and family life. I don't blame her as I would've been scared too but i wouldn't have married a man who'd claimed to love me after 2 months and was so willing to marry me even when pregnant with someone else's child. i would spare him and opt for single parenthood and see him on the side get to know him while all this is happening rather than tying the knot and pretending to be a family and pretending he was the father.
Cindy was selfish and only thought of herself and how SHE could be helped, how SHE would make it, how Dean could be something to HER not what she could be to him. And when Cindy began to realize she didn't need him anymore, that she had a good paying job as a nurse, and was adjusted to motherhood as her child was now in kindergarten, etc., and she could make it without him, that's when she began to treat him even worse. Dean had also began to let himself go, probably bc he was too comfortable but also deep down unhappy and depressed without realizing it, and this also drove Cindy away---that he'd become a "bum' in her eyes who she could no longer even be physically attracted to. It was the fact that he served no purpose for her anymore, but inf act needed her more than she needed him. And that is what makes Cindy IMO the "bad guy". It was the fact that she used Dean and now is done with him and wants to throw him away like a dishrag but her conscience makes her feel obliged to stay so she just treats him like crap to deal

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[–] hellfire1 11 years ago

Well that's your assumption of what went wrong in the relationship. I think they just didn't know who the other was when they got married and over the years their incompatability drove the wedge between them.

Sure she was selfish in marrying him and not being sure about her decision. But she's 22 and alone and scared. I can hardly blame her... plus we wouldn't have this beautiful film had she declined, would we? But one can argue (and it has been argued on the board) that Dean also took advantage of her situation (seriously who seemed more vulnerable? A pregnant girl still in college, or hard working, sensitive and lovable Dean?), and was also very selfish in his needs and not at all attentive to hers.

There really is no bad guy. I think the film does a good job showing this. Dean is just goofier and more open and so he comes off looking better.

Thug means never having to say you're sorry.

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[–] Tales-from-the-Goondocks 11 years ago

Dean definitely wasn't as selfish as she was. What the hell are you talking about? How did he took advantage of her? He married her because he loved her, he loved her child as if it was his, he constantly tried to reignite the "flame" in their marriage. Cindy was a bïtch who pretty much used him because she thought he was her ticket out of her problematic situations. Dean's only crime was to be less ambitious than she wanted him to be. And after everything he did for her, she still has the balls to call HIM the "bad guy". I definitely agree with the OP. And there's no way in hell that Dean was as selfish as her. She definitely was the "bad guy" in this situation. Of course you will reply back to tell me the reasons why you think this is not true, but for me this was very clear in the movie.

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[–] hellfire1 11 years ago

First of all: learn to read. I never said he took advantage of her situation. I said it has been argued on the board that he did. It is not my opinion.

Secondly: no, he didn't "constantly" try to reignite the flame in their marriage. Trying to initiate sex does not equal trying to rekindle the spark or working on a relationship that is pretty much dead.

Cindy was a bïtch who pretty much used him because she thought he was her ticket out of her problematic situations.

That's your opinion.

And after everything he did for her, she still has the balls to call HIM the "bad guy".

What is this everything you speak of? He married her, sure. Loved her? Certainly. Other than that?

And there's no way in hell that Dean was as selfish as her.

Sure he was. There are many parts in the film where this is shown. You just choose to ignore it.

She definitely was the "bad guy" in this situation... but for me this was very clear in the movie.

Again, your opinion. I've already stated mine.

Thug means never having to say you're sorry.

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[–] Tales-from-the-Goondocks 11 years ago

You said "one could argue". Why would you even say that if you didn't think so?

Secondly: no, he didn't "constantly" try to reignite the flame in their marriage. Trying to initiate sex does not equal trying to rekindle the spark or working on a relationship that is pretty much dead.

He definitely tried to reignite it constantly. He told her numerous times that he loved her, he tried numerous times to fix their problems (and yes, sex is part of that), he tried numerous times to have physical contact with her (that's part of what a marriage is supposed to be). You can make up whatever excuse to make it look like that doesn't count, but I'll say it right now: BS, he definitely tried to save their marriage, whether you disagree or not.

What is this everything you speak of? He married her, sure. Loved her? Certainly. Other than that?

Married her to help her rise a child that wasn't his, because he loved her that much. Loved her child like if it was his. Constantly tried to reignite the flame (despite your disagreement, he did try) despite her bïtchiness. If you think he didn't do anything for her, then you just didn't pay attention to the movie.

Sure he was. There are many parts in the film where this is shown. You just choose to ignore it.

I'm still waiting to read what these parts were. He wasn't attentive to her needs? Just because he wasn't the artist she wanted him to be doesn't mean that he wasn't attentive to her needs. Again, the mere fact that he married her and raised her child out of pure love is proof enough that he wasn't the same kind of ässhole she was.

But you are right, most of this is just opinion, except for the part about him trying to reignite their love. That's not just an opinion. That happened during the movie, whether you saw it or not. As you said, we have already stated our opinions about this matter, so I guess we can just agree to disagree. Good bye.

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[–] hellfire1 11 years ago

You said "one could argue". Why would you even say that if you didn't think so?

Because as I said, it has already been argued on the board. And I do think she was a bit more vulnerable than he was when they married.

He definitely tried to reignite it constantly. He told her numerous times that he loved her

Oh, so working on your problems is that easy? Saying "I love you" is the way to start back up a relationship? Are you 12?

he tried numerous times to fix their problems(and yes, sex is part of that), he tried numerous times to have physical contact with her

Saying I love you and then pressuring for sex is not fixing the problem. He never even addressed their problems (neither of them did) until the blowout at the motel. And even then, only the symptom (the lack of sex) is discussed, not the problem(s) itself.

Again I ask: are you 12? When your relationship is so far gone that your spouse doesn't even want to touch you, how is trying to have sex without trying first to communicate going to resolve anything? Answer: it doesn't. It only makes it worse, as we see in the film.

And btw, if you're constantly bringing up his failed attempts at having sex with her as an answer to how he tried to save the marriage, then it's pretty obvious that that's all he did and you have nothing else to stand on. So basically: he did nothing (besides try and have sex with her, that is).

Married her to help her rise a child that wasn't his, because he loved her that much. Loved her child like if it was his.

Wow... he loved her and so he loved her child as well. What a kindness he paid her. She really owed him for that! Are you serious?

I'm still waiting to read what these parts were.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1120985/board/flat/193943817?p=4
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1120985/board/flat/193327394?p=6

There are plenty of threads that discuss Dean's major shortcomings, but it's obvious you're not really open to discussion so they'd be lost on you.

Thug means never having to say you're sorry.

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[–] carolynhagspiel 11 years ago

Please learn to tell the difference between vulnerability and self-pity. Cindy came from a two-parent home, Dean came from a single dad home with no mother. dean never got to experience the nuclear family. Cindy did and knew it was over-rated yet she STILL took advantage of his kindness bc she "didn't know what else to do" and probably bc she was ashamed to be a single parent. I bet/wonder if her parents even knew he wasn't the natural father of Frankie.
The scenes that really give this away for me are when Dean tells her in her father's kitchen during the ending "those vows were forever, for better or worse, this is my worse" and she kind of just rolled her eyes as if to say "you thought I was serious? You were just my meal ticket". Then in the flashback of before the wedding, when she's staring at herself in the mirror about to marry dean in the courthouse, she looks so unsure. Deep down she knew that Dean wasn't who/what she wanted and she was doing this for convenience and her own selfish needs (not even the needs of her child).
Even the abortion scene it's obvious that Cindy was backing out bc of her owns selfish fears. It wasn't bc she loved that baby she was carrying or bc she thought it was "wrong' it was simply bc she was terrified of the procedure itself and backed out bc of fear not right or wrong.

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[–] ahsanasaad101 11 years ago

Okay how to begin. I was browsing this thread in my office as a regular person and now here I am, with an IMDB account. Why? Because, for some strange reason, this thread has struck me on a deep personal level so that I cannot but respond to it.

In my opinion this argument comes down to one thing, do you believe in the idealistic, romantic notion of love of are you a hard boiled pragmatist. While both sides have their merits I'd like to ask all the people who have been in real relationships one thing: Is deep, almost enslaved love, what is really important or is it the alignment of personal objectives and compatibility?

Each person has their own answer but mine is the following:

Love is not about compatibility, it is about sacrifice and compromise. It is about selling oneself into bondage willingly and with foreknowledge that life is not always rosy.

Was Cindy able to love or was Dean? And what was this movie about if not love tossed about in the storm of life. I'll let each of you answer that for themselves.

@Hellfire1: I checked both the links you posted, they are one liners which don't really deserve the effort it went into typing them. Perhaps you posted the wrong links or perhaps there is not as much substance to your arguments as you may like to believe.

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[–] hellfire1 11 years ago

@Hellfire1: I checked both the links you posted, they are one liners which don't really deserve the effort it went into typing them. Perhaps you posted the wrong links or perhaps there is not as much substance to your arguments as you may like to believe.

Kinda easy of you to only read one thread (since the other thread I linked to has since been deleted), if that's even what you did, and jump to your hasty conclusion, isn't it? Run along.

Thug means never having to say you're sorry.

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[–] ahsanasaad101 11 years ago

Just a question, do you have anything other to say than that other people don't have anything worthwhile to say? Incase that takes a while to process why don't you answer me this; what in your esteemed opinion (other than your one liner links) makes Dean the culprit in this story?

Genuinely interested to hear if you have any real substance to contribute.

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[–] hellfire1 11 years ago

First of all, you came into this thread calling me out. Not the other way around. And like I said in my previous post, you're quite hasty to jump to a conclusion after having been here all of 5 minutes.

You ask me if I actually have anything to contribute. Look around the board, click on my username. Any person worth their salt who's trying to pick a fight would have bothered researching in order to back their *beep* up before talking out of their ass.

EDIT : Also, bravo for not even paying attention to the one thread you claim to have read. I never said Dean was the "culprit" in the story. Far from it.

So again I say... run along.

Thug means never having to say you're sorry.

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[–] ahsanasaad101 11 years ago

I love how you avoid directly answering the simplest of questions. Really, it's a gift, you should consider becoming a lawyer, it's right up your alley.

Researching your previous posts on other threads (which would be a total yawn fest) is none of my concern, what I am concerned with is the point of view you choose to take on this particular one; oh wait I haven't been paying attention have I, you don't seem to have a point of view. In a post, which's tagline has the words Cindy and b** together, you choose to be neither for or against but rather to meander in between.

Devils advocate get's old after a while, move on and support your argument which seems to hinge on Dean's faults. (Here i'll admit my verbiage was incorrect when I used the word "culprit", your posts do not criminalize Dean, but in a polarized thread one doesn't use value neutral language)

It's a simple question, if Cindy wasn't a b** that means one of two things, that Dean was and therefore had it coming, or that there were extenuating circumstances which render her actions inviolable. Answer the question.

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[–] tang-22 11 years ago

All I can say is, Hellfire1 is an idiot. I'm sure anyone with a rational mind not too clouded with deep seated personal issues would agree with me.

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[–] pofpm 11 years ago

hellfire1: Please shut up. You're looking worse and worse with every word you type. It's clear you are not a fan of logic or facts.

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[–] hellfire1 11 years ago

It's clear you are not a fan of logic or facts.

Says the person telling me to shut up almost four whole months after my last post...

Which makes it clear you are not a fan of looking like an intelligent person, so run along troll. I'll stop feeding you now. :)

Thug means never having to say you're sorry.

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[–] Annie_Chan5 11 years ago

But she took advantage of a vulnerable man, a childlike man who grew up motherless and had many of his own underlying issues that stemmed from his childhood and family life.

It's pretty clear that you're connecting with Dean here and giving him way more leniency and understanding than you are Cindy.
Dean, at that time, was not the more vulnerable one in the situation. Cindy was pregnant, had just broken up with the violent a**-hole who was (probably) the father of her child, was emotionally unable to deal with abortion, would have to drop out of school and put her dreams on hold to raise the child, and currently still living in the troubled family home responsible for her own underlying issues. And here is this sweet guy who wants to love her and her child and give her an out. It's not at all hard to understand that she was able to convince herself this was the best idea. Especially when you consider Dean's personality - pushy as fck. If she ever voiced her doubts he might have threatened to jump off a bridge, or just insisted on booking the venue anyway.
Really, Dean should have been the adult putting a halt to the situation. What he did was generous, but it was the wrong choice for both of them.

Then you blame all Older-Dean's faults on Cindy based on what happened inbetween - the stuff we weren't shown and can only guess at. Him letting himself go, his drinking, his hypersensitivity and defensiveness, his inability to communicate, his lack of respect for what Cindy wanted (who cares if you're on call we're going to the hotel!), his willingness to make scenes in her workplace, and being utterly annoying to be around. If all of that is someone else's fault than Dean must literally be a child.

Cindy wanted out of the marriage because they both made eachother unhappy. That is a valid reason to want out of a marriage and isn't analogous to throwing someone away. Heck, after 30 minutes I was ready to call the lawyer for them.

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[–] carolynhagspiel 11 years ago

But I mean Dean now and Dean in general. If you look at the end result, DEAN is the vulnerable one. And I think it came from his own inner issues of not having a mother, and wanting to be loved/accepted by a woman bc he never felt that from his mother and had abandonment issues. And maybe that neediness did drive Cindy away after awhile but she didn't even try to help him. Then you see his looks go his ambitions etc I mean who lost in all of this? It's obvious it was Dean. He spent five years with a child that wasn't even his, whom he did not have to love or be responsible for, but chose to. He did not foresee Cindy doing this to him. Had he he would have never offered her marriage and family.
Maybe his approach wasn't always good or appropriate or what she/they needed like sex, having another baby idea etc. But Cindy didn't even give him a chance. Instead she hits him, yells at him, runs away from him and acts like a spoiled child. Of course sex can't cure wounded relationships but if she communicated with him what SHE really wanted and not what she wanted him to be, then maybe things would've been different.
She basically used him and I stand by that. it doesn't matter how "vulnerable" she was she still sued him. And she knew what she was doing. She had other options that she didn't want to explore. Then when he loses his looks and ambitions and self-esteem she conveniently gets rid of him bc she simply can and has a place to live with her father. If it weren't for her father where would she have gone? After all she was jobless.

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[–] past_tyme 11 years ago

Thanks, Annie Chan for this post. It is still lost on people. I agree with everything you said.

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[–] EnsignBlair 11 years ago

When you're in love, people tend to forget that just because you will unconditionally love the other person means they will do the same in response...he let himself go, and was completely clingy and insecure. She just mentioned that she saw Bobby, and automatically he jumps all over her, regardless of the fact that she denied Bobby's advances or whatever...imagine being in a situation where you have the opportunity to do something wrong, and you choose to do the right thing and the person you care about jumps down your throat anyway...Insecurity, lack of motivation, and pretty much laziness(not in work, he was a hard worker, but too lazy to improve his life) is VERY unattractive. And as much as you may love someone initally, it takes its toll. He constantly twisted her words to become the victim, so you can infer that he wasn't receptive AT ALL to objective criticism, and was quick to get mad at her for suggesting he become something more than what he was.

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[–] AfroGeek 11 years ago

She's being passive aggressive taking out her anger. The only 2 mistakes she makes are trying to be ambiguous about the paternity and not flat out telling him to grow up. He never took the polite suggests to heart and probably wouldn't have anyway.

Amy: I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!

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[–] Tales-from-the-Goondocks 11 years ago

I totally agree with you. I think it was obvious in the film that Dean genuinely loved her and she just plain used him to get out of her problems. She was a real bïtch. I can't believe there are actually people here distorting what was seen in the film to try and defend her.

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[–] pofpm 11 years ago

Agreed. This is a sad world. This is why you never marry in this society. Pump and dump. Be the Bobby not the Dean.

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[–] OldSamVimes 11 years ago

Read my review of this movie.

I thought Dean was a child... Just soooooo dumb I had to LOL at him most of the way through the movie.

Three tough looking thug dudes stop you at work, they look really really pissed off and ask 'Are you Dean?' You don't know them and you have no back up. 'Yea, I'm Dean!!!' '''Duuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh"

"Gee, I wonder how I got my butt kicked..."

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[–] 11 years ago

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[–] Celeste_x 11 years ago

I don't think you can point the finger at Cindy or Dean; they're both equally to blame for the demise of their relationship. All successful marriages and relationships are about cooperation and this is evolutionary. Cindy certainly had her faults, however, I think it is a bit of an overstatement to say she used him. I believe their relationship was superficial from the beginning, they did not have a long courtship period at all and were thrown together (by bad choices) due to a pregnancy. I don't believe he was ready to be a father and a husband, he said so himself that it isn't something he saw for himself. She wasn't ready to be a mother either, she had hopes of becoming a doctor and achieving a lot more academically than she did.

Getting married and having a child is a big decision; this might be an obvious thing to state, but a large percentage of people make this commitment without being ready for it emotionally, physically or financially and obviously for them it had a large impact on the future of their relationship.

Dean may have been a good father and provided in the most basic means, but he definitely had let go. He was more like a friend to the daughter rather than a father figure, he was unkempt in his personal appearance, he was an alcoholic by most standards and he was also very aggressive at times. I'm a female myself and I could relate to Cindy's qualms about Dean as a father and as a husband.

I don't think this movie was as black and white as you may think; I don't believe there was a good guy or a bad guy and certainly no one was more to blame than the other. I think this movie (for me) was largely about choices and consequences. I don't believe their love was as genuine as it seemed, I think it was more circumstantially convenient. Certainly Cindy did want a father for her child, but Dean was very eager to find a girl at the beginning of the film also and it was love at first sight for him. In other words, he was sexually attracted to her and she saw a father figure in him, the two things men and women look for in a companion. Yet, as they both realised, a successful relationship takes more than this and they didn't seem very willing to cooperate.

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[–] girlfrom_ns 11 years ago

You are mother, and married and that gives you right to judge her?
There is something called - individual differences in personality which means - you don't know and you may not ever know what other person is going through and feeling - so do not be judgmental in life.

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[–] Princess_Ashmi 11 years ago

Of course, in the end its always just better to pin all the blame on the woman for being a 'bitch' how dare we have a bad side to us as well instead of behave like Stepford wives...

Ashmi any question

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[–] joshuacarpino 7 years ago

stop hiding behind your gender card,coward.

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[–] 11 years ago

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